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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    But the MKS is just a tarted-up Five Hundred, no? Sweeter tarts than the X or LT, but a tart nonetheless. And the MKR will be a tarted-up 4 door Mustang, n'est pas? Or even a tarted up Aussie Ford, eh Mate?

    I dunno. My Navigator is a nicely-tarted up Expedition, yeah. But I prefer the tarted-down Jaguar which is my LS. But that's in the past now. No more of that will be coming.

    I should know this, but what do the CTS and STS share platforms with? Anyone know?
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    to come up with a new model.

    After Pearl Harbor the American auto industry produced planes,tanks, trucks, & Jeeps within just several months.

    This is 65 years later and more time is needed?

    With computer sequential production and automation techniques, what are the obstacles?
  • No, the 500, S80 and MKS are different cars with different looks and dynamics, built on the same architecture. The Edge and MKX, on the other hand, share all glass, roof, doors, mounting points, drivetrain, wheelbase, etc. Even though it is not just badge engineering, these models are too similar (and too close to badge engineering).

    I don't criticize Lincoln for doing the Navigator the way it did at first...practically all the companies offering big SUVs built them off a corresponding light pickup, and the later luxo versions (Lincoln, Lexus, etc.) were built off the Expedition, Tahoe, Sequioa, Armada, etc. But why they didn't update the body panels, at the very least when the F150 was revamped, is a mystery.

    To my knowledge, the CTS is its own car. However, I don't think that matters so much as giving the car its own individuality and solid reason for being. If Ford can build the Mustang and the MKR off essentially the same platform, more power to them. No one will confuse one with the other.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I believe that comment was raised on one of the message boards before, and the reason given was that those planes, trucks, ships, etc. were built to last for much less time :confuse: . Now we expect our cars to be around for 200k miles and that is what requires 48 mos.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    It seems they have used all that computing power to develop better and more convoluted excuses.

    The "new" Focus is a striking argument why everyone with more than 18 months seniority should be fired.
  • Agreed. Though they did get the message that they should not just change the fron clip, tailights and interior, and call it "all new."

    Unfortuntely, they then spent way too much money clothing the same old body in some new sheet metal panels, and ended up with a mish-mash. Instead of the three bar grill, they made it two bars. To my eye, it doesn't resemble the Fusion's or the 08 500's (much less the Interceptor or Super Chief grills), the headlights look like no other Ford, the creased side panels may show some modicum of creativity--but again look like no other Ford--and the tail lights completely go their own way as well. Now, they are stuck with this thing for at least 2 more years.

    And why go to a coupe and four door configuration only, when hatches are finally making a comeback (e.g., Calibur, Rabbit, Aveo, Vibe, A3, etc.)? The reasons Ford is in so much doo-doo keep coming.

    I will say that Mullaly has seemed to make a huge difference in a few short months. Too bad they stuck with Bill all the way down first. Remember, 2004 was going to be "The Year of the Car?" Trucks and SUVs were going to have their mileage increased by 25% by now? Hybrids were going to be a real factor in Ford sales? Mercury was to have a diesel hybrid by now?

    In the late 90's Morgan Stanley was still recommending Ford as the best auto company stock. Well, it is too early to buy Ford stock yet, unless you love risk and speculation.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I went to the Philadelphia Auto Show this weekend. I sat in both the Mercury Grand Marquis and the Lincoln Town Car. These cars are so woefully outdated I'm ashamed for them. They even had a "Palm Beach" edition of the Mercury Grand Marquis. If that doesn't scream "old person's car" I don't know what does. I also noticed the Grand Marquis has a HUGE transmission hump up front negating any leg room for a middle front passenger.

    The Town Car didn't come off as badly as the Grand Marquis. It too had the huge transmission hump, but it didn't intrude as much into the passenger space. The Town car comes across as something I'd have gone nuts over ten years ago. Now it's like "been there, done that." The seats were still very comfortable, but the remainder of the interior seemed somewhat barren for a luxury car.

    The MKZ, (formerly Zephyr) didn't impress anybody as I heard a bystander say, "What the heck is that? That ain't a Lincoln!" I spotted a round port in the decklid thinking it was a rearview camera. Turns out it was the trunk lock just randomly plopped in the lower right middle of the deck lid -just careless, sloppy design. The front end of the MKZ is nice, but the back reminds me of my Dad's dog of a 1981 Thunderbird. Lincoln should lower the lights, make them full width, and reduce the size of the backup lights - or better yet, make the taillights solid red and place smaller backup lights in the bumper or something. The interior is still nice and reminicent of the 1961-64 Continental. The center stack looks a bit too Nissan-esque.

    The SUVs look good. The Navigator really had an impressive interior finished in this beautiful light wood and I dig the retro '70s instrument cluster. The front end is a bit busy. The MKX also had a nice interior but the instrument cluster seemed a bit barren. The truck has a cool grille that reminds me of a 1963 Continental.
  • And that pretty much sums up why Lincoln-Mercury remains in the toilet.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You don't neglect a brand and segment of vehicles for 7 years and expect it to get better overnight. I suspect there was nothing worthwhile in the Lincoln product pipeline last year when Fields took over and even so the board still held the purse strings. I don't expect anything great for another couple of years at least. You have to walk before you can run.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    "If that doesn't scream "old person's car" I don't know what does.

    What is your secret of not ever being an "old person?"

    Someday sooner than you think, you too will be an "Old person".

    "The Greatest Generation" = only old persons. ;);)
  • Good point: we will all get old, if we are lucky.

    However, those people weaned on 30's, 40's and 50's cars do tend to expect that you have to slow to a crawl to turn a corner, that steering down a highway demands constant small corrections, that a "floaty" ride is luxurious, and long overhangs and big front seats mean you have arrived.

    There is a tendency of the retired to be less interested in keeping up with ever-emerging tech, whereas those who look ahead at their careers can less afford to be Luddites about gadget change.

    If it weren't for the over 65 demographic, the Grand Marquis in its present form would have died many years ago. Even the Marauder version of several years ago could not appeal to young people. Mercury even had a crazy idea of issuing a Marauder convertible version...rather than spending the bucks on truly modernizing the car.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    Man, you guys are brutal on Ford. I own a MKZ and love it to death. It is the best car I have ever owned. No issues with it as it is quite, smooth, great sound and nav system, great interior (black with Satin finishes), vivid red color, and enough power for me. I have every option you can think of such as heat/cool seats so I am not sure what more I would expect for 35k. About 7-years ago I paid 30k for a Chrysler 300m and it can't compare.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Your observations are generally true about the average senior, however, having been weaned on a 30's car, due to economics. Today, wife person drives a 95 T Bird 4.6, leaving the 94 Town Car to me, but she has the Tachometer! The TC is the "Handling Package" model and corners like a locomotive, but my favorite is the one I've had for 40 years..........
    '66 Mustang GT! ;)
  • Of course the MKZ is a good car. So is the competition. The thing about the MKZ is not that it is bad. It just doesn't strike some people as true Lincoln material. It's looks are ok, though very conservative, and most of its features do not set it apart from very well equipped mid-size sedans from almost any manufacturer in 2007/2008. It is too close to the Milan/Fusion in execution to be a runaway success for Lincoln right now. Sales cannot go up dramatically anyway, due to production limits. But sales have instead gone down. I don't find that surprising.
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    I thought sales of luxury items always might go down due to folks paying off their credit car debts rung-up during December?
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    The thing about the MKZ is not that it is bad. It just doesn't strike some people as true Lincoln material.

    I found this to be similar to the Catera/CTS for Caddy.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    They even had a "Palm Beach" edition of the Mercury Grand Marquis.

    Maybe they'll come out with a "Del Boca Vista" trim package as well. ;)

    Haven't had a chance to check out the Navigator interior personally, but are the gauges straight out of a 70's-era F150 or Fairmont? From the pictures I had a flashback of my uncle's early-80s F150 with the same gauges and my buddy's '79 Fairmont from shop class a few years back.
  • World of difference between the Catera and CTS. World of difference.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    "Will it Run"....

    ...the nick-name given to Willow-Run. If ever there was a demonstration of American industry's ability to respond to crisis, WWII was it. Ford Motor is now in the same kind of crisis, and will take the same kind of effort to survive. "Why does it take two years...?" ---to build a car, a good question. Looking back to the war years one can appreciate what was possible back then, when ENIAC computer computations were but pencil notes on Alan Turning's notebooks---slide rules, drafting boards, and vaccuum tubes ruled the day.

    Charles Sorensen recounts his efforts to get Willow Run off the ground, and he did so BEFORE the start of WWII. Sorensen responded because FDR was curtailing supplies to auto firms to make cars from 1940 onwards, well before Pearl Harbor, in order to meet demand for Lend-Lease and the British War Effort. He engaged to spend $200Mn for the plant ($880Mn in 2006 dollars) without having a contract in hand.

    Even so his memoirs clearly state the trouble building Willow Run was: "Doing business with the government, treading though the maze of controls and frequently conflicting priorities, regulations, vexed by wild-cat strikes, labour and housing shortages to say nothing of erratic deliveries of essential materials were a frustrating experience." Not to forget that Ford Motor endeavored to build a product not designed by them (Consolidated Aero was the designer) and here-to-fore of designs far more modern than Tri-Motors, and never attempted on a mass scale.

    When one looks at the time table and result achieved it becomes apparent that miracles can happen.

    January 8, 1941: Meeting with Edsel, HFII, and Benson Ford at San Diego to see test flights of the new B-24. Design for a factory layed out overnight by Sorensen.

    February 25, 1941: Approval in Washington D.C.
    April 18, 1941: Factory Ground-breaking
    May 3, 1941: First Structural Steel errected
    August 12, 1941: First machines and tooling installed
    November 15, 1941: First production man hours
    December 7, 1941: Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, War Declared
    February 11, 1942: All passenger car production halted
    June 6, 1942: First Knock-Down assemblies delivered
    September 10, 1942: First completed B-24 rolls off the line at Willow Run. FDR tours Willow Run with the Henry Ford.

    Production at Willow run in 1943: 2,184 bombers. In 1944: 4,611---nearly half its capacity making 20 bombers per day! The mile long factory would attain its 1 bomber per hour target during 1944-45.

    For GM it was much the same. The last Cadillac rolled off the Clarck Avenue line February 11, 1942. 55 days later the first Cadillac V8 Automatic powered M5/M24 tank rolled off the same assebmly line. GM had never built tanks before and had entered into an area of manufacture which improvisation was the order of the day. Especially considering that more than 114,000 of their employees left to serve in the Armed Forces causing GM and Ford Motor to hire women to take their place---a factor that would rise to 34% during the war. They had to reconfigure assembly lines and train women who had no prior factory experience to do the jobs done previously by men.

    One example of the efficiency attained by GM rapidly during the war years was the fact that in all of 1939 they built 800 Allison V1710 aero engines. By December 1941 that figure rose to 1,110 per month. During the war GM, like Ford and Chrysler overturned all operations to meet government contracts. GM alone built $12.4Bn ($54.12Bn in 2006 dollars*) worth of armaments and munitions for the war effort. 11.8 to 22.5% of that amount represented either Tanks, or vehicles and armored cars, for a combined total of nearly 34%, The balance, roughly 45% represented air-craft and parts GM has never built before. They used 5,400 machine tools, 2,000 plus owned by the government, 13,500 suppliers and operated 120 plants to attain war-time production goals. "Of the $12 Billion of military equipment turned out by GM, $8Bn was represented by products entirely new to us." GM CEO Alfred Sloan recounted in his memoirs.

    After the war it took little time for Ford Motor and GM, among others to regain production of passenger cars. August 24, 1945 the last M24 tank rolled off the line at Cadillac. Less than two months later on October 17, 1945 the first post-war Cadillac rolled off the line, albeit missing certain amenities due to materials rationing. For Ford it was not much different---both firms having planned early in the war (1943) for post-war production. The first "official" post-war Lincoln Custom rolled out of the Lincoln plant November 1, 1945 with regular Ford production having started July 3, 1945.

    Sorensen put it best: "The only thing we can't make is something we can't think about."

    Therefore it is entirely possible for Ford Motor to put itself on a war-time footing and match its performance and then some during the dark years of the 1940's. No one can beleive that a wholly new car could be built in less than two years, but Ford has enough materials and access to design staff and suppliers to revamp what it currently builds into something far more exciting and enticing than today's products in less time. They can start at Lincoln---so long neglected. MR. Ford will have to put his disdain for the brand aside if Mr. Mulally is to succeed and save The Blue Oval.

    DouglasR

    *by contrast the 2007 proposed U.S.Budget for defense spending is $615Bn, $145Bn of which is for war materials and engagement.

    (Sources: 'My Forty Years with Ford', Charles E. Sorensen, Collier Books NY 1962; 'Cadillac, Seventy Five Years of Excellence', Maurice D. Hendry, Motorbooks International 1975; 'Lincoln & Continental Classic Motorcars' Marvin Arnold, Taylor Publising 1989; 'My Years with General Motors' Alred Sloan, DoubleDay 1963; NYT, WSJ)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I should know this, but what do the CTS and STS share platforms with? Anyone know?

    Just each other, and the SRX.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    But why they didn't update the body panels, at the very least when the F150 was revamped, is a mystery.

    The Previous and current F-150 is a different platform than the Expedition since 03, and the panels don't fit, neither does the dash. That's why the Mark LT didn't get the Navigator interior.
  • Well, yes, that was my point. Why didn't they update the bodies of the Expedition and Navigator around 2003 or 2004, with the brand new 2004 F150 already in the pipeline? As it stands now, even with the tremendous changes underneath (in both 2003 and 2007 editions of the utes), both the current Expedition and Navigator are still using the old body designed off the 1997 F150. That is just stupid planning.

    BTW, unlike F150 and Expedition, the Ranger and Explorer were different platforms from the beginning (and there was never a real good reason that Ford should have spent all that money making them completely different platforms, but they did). However, Ford still found a way to hang the same dashboard in both. I think the Mark LT didn't get the Navigator interior style for cost reasons, not because it couldn't have been done.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    "months later on October 17, 1945 the first post-war Cadillac rolled off the line, albeit missing certain amenities due to materials rationing."

    My father purchased the 3rd post war Chrysler Windsor to arrive here after he turned down a Black Royal. We were lucky to get a new car, but the chrome hubcaps came six months later. Some new cars were shipped without bumpers and the dealers mounted Doug Fir 2X4's until the chrome bumpers came in. Exciting times then. :)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "I should know this, but what do the CTS and STS share platforms with? Anyone know?

    Just each other, and the SRX."

    And this IS the right way to run an airline.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I think the Mark LT didn't get the Navigator interior style for cost reasons, not because it couldn't have been done.

    If you are right, then my Ford engineer buddy lied to me.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    A world? Naw, maybe a small town / municipality's worth. Not a world of difference much between the Catera and the initial CTS. Had plenty of seat time in both and it wasn't that much difference. It wasn't Cavalier/Cimmaron similar, but not as much as you're trying to state IMO.

    But do agree that the new CTS is a major leap. In any event the point was that many didn't think the Catera or CTS were a "true" Caddy. Just a stopgap if you will, with some even saying "Uh-oh, another Cimmaron". An ex-coworker had a Catera and many just called it an Opel Caddy, or some other, shall we say "less-kind" words. But to each his/her own.
  • Probably not a lie. There are different mounting points, which would have made it a design chore...though still do-able.

    I will never figure out why the powers that be approved continued use of the 10 year old body shell for the Navigator, when the F150 provided a basis for designing a new one and not have to start from scratch. Probably for a similar nonsensical reason that led Ford to dress up the 10 year old Focus, rather than use the European platform as a base for the 2008 edition.
  • Excuse me, but the Catera was a front drive Opel with some Caddy flourishes added. An okay car for sure, but it did not look like a Caddy and was not initially designed to be one.

    The CTS, however, was a Caddy-only platform right from the go-shot, and rear drive to boot. I'd say they bear little relationship to one another. A casual drive might not point out dramatic differences in the way they went down the road, but those differences were there. The CTS also defined style for Cadillac. The Catera never even looked like a Cadillac.

    The 2008 CTS will now have a world class interior (the one area where the CTS really didn't measure up to the German and Japanese competition).
  • whahappanwhahappan Member Posts: 69
    Actually, the Catera was rear wheel drive, though it was based on an Opel. The CTS is on the GM Sigma platform, and is of course also rear wheel drive.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Errr The catera was RWD.

    Remember the Caddy that zigs commercials.

    It was actually a decent handling car just under powered, poorly built and with akward styling.
  • My bad. You are so right: RWD. The Caddy that zigs had a weight problem, as I recall.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    A very good friend was an SA at a Caddy dealer during Catera days. The accepted internal name for the car was the "Craptera"
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ahh sounds much like our internal name for the freelander... Freeloader.
  • Which brings up another off-topic question...

    While Land Rover has improved on the Freelander enormously with the LR2 version about to be released, why-oh-why did they retain so much resemblance between the new one and the sorry old Freelander? The version about to be introduced does look a bit more substantial (and obviously is), but it looks a lot more like the old Freelander crossed with a Saturn Vue than it looks like its big brother LR3.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The LR2 doesn't share any components with the old freelander, it shares more with the S80 then any other vehicle currently being sold in the US, but the old freelander looked ok.

    The only two positive things I ever here anyone say about the freelander are...

    1. The outside looks. Most people like the styling.
    2. How it drives. When it is working anyway.

    Remember the LR2 is still called the Freelander 2 in Europe so it needs to look a little bit like the old freelander.

    Err on topic...

    Err lincoln is in bad shape err yeah. :(
  • I know it doesn't share any components with the old truck. So why still look like it does? Contrary to what you may think, the Freelander's looks did not sell it, because the styling was too much like the original Honda CRV, and about as substantial and pricey looking as a Ford Escape. It wasn't bad looking at all...it just did not look like $30,000+.

    Now, we get a new Land Rover that still looks like an attractive, small economy ute. The thing needed either a dose of butch, or looks that emulated the LR3 (or even the Range Rover). It looks like neither. Once you remove the baby, sort of, Land Rover grill, it could be anything from Japan or GM.

    Yes, Lincoln is in the worst shape of all Ford divisions, save Jaguar. Plans are to resurrect the bramd from its present mess, but it has to limp along with a second rate lineup for a couple years first.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ehh that goes against what most people I talk to.

    I was just talking to a woman, less then ten minutes ago, today about her freelander and she loves the looks and the drives. She doesn't like the problems she has had with it but her problems have so far been minor... Knock on wood.

    I am going to the LR2 training towards the end of march beginning of April so I will get to see things much more in depth. I will see the car in person next week when one of our reps brings one in. According to the people I know who have been in the car the fit and finish are about on par with the Range Rover sport. So we are talking about a 35-40k vehicle with the fit and finish of a 60-75k vehicle.

    Oh interesting story on Jag here...

    Supercharged plan to save jag axed

    full article
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I have mulled over the "corners like a locomotive" phrase and cannot figure it out...does that mean it corners very well, like a good handling machine, or corners like a 1965 Caddy Brougham Boat???...:):):):):)
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    The $880Mn to $1.2Bn that Ford Motor will receive for Astons can have an appropriate home: Revamping the Town Car/Crown Vic-Marquis chassis. Alex Troutman demanded, after a write-it campaign by Mustang owners pleading with the Ford CEO not to kill Mustang by rebadging from a FWD Cougar and making it at Flat Rock---Ford received 750,000 letters from people all over America---that the design team for Mustang spend: "$750 Million and not a dime more". The platform and heritage was saved, and now is a leading product at Ford once again.

    The efficacy of retaining the Taurus name needs no explaination, and it is only a surprise that A.R.M. did not order this on his second day on the job as CEO. The corresponding Sable wagon I owned was like the trucks: it got the job done without a lot of fuss. It was my "works" car, doing the skut work when I did not want to smirch up the Lincoln, in short a tough car. Therein Lincoln has the chance now to capitalise on the cash-brought-in.

    Using the funds from Astons to rekindle the Town-Car at St. Thomas on a crash "war-time" program directed by a special task force of "ARMS-MEN" in a basement studio turns the trick. It was done for Lincoln-Continental in 1958 for the 1961 model year. The full clay model was completed the last week of July 1958, approval given in August, and thence development began. Driving prototypes out of Wixom eighteen months later in December 1959. The rushed production of the '61 caused a late intro in November 1960, but well worth the waiting. The car saved Lincoln, and as I have outlined in detail previously, was under the threat of cancellation by Robert S. McNamara.

    Marek Reichmann, designer of Astons, created the "Rapide" four-door on a napkin. "The concept developed in sketches, eventually in clay,and finally in hand-beaten aluminum, It added another 40mm to the height of the DB9 as well as an extra 250mm in the wheelbase." TOP GEAR staffwriter Michael Harvey commented in a first review of the January 2006 Detroit Show Car. This was accomplished in six months. Work in earnest did not begin until the summer of 2005. Granted Rapide was a show car, and plans are afoot now to make it to production, but the car is real and whetted the appetites of potential customers.

    Mark S and Mark R have been borne of existing Ford Motor platforms, the one nondescript, and the other rather interesting. The same process used for Rapide, Mark S/R could be used to revamp Town Car. Though one can argue about the efficacy of spending money on a platform that is now rather long in the tooth, Cadillac has regained some of its cache because it re-entered certain segments of the market, and was badly hurt (to the benefit of Lincoln) when its stopped making RWD chassis. Its return to that format in part with the help of AWD has spurred its renascence. Lincoln can do the same, and would benefit from NOT having left the RWD market.

    Sales of the TC were increasing at the time of the St. Thomas announcement, pre-empting disaster when Ford announced closure of the venerable Wixom Plant. Thus while the Australian-Ford chassis revamp for a RWD TC moves on one page, the "full scale" Lincoln could remain on another. The ARMSMEN could do it with the Astons cash. This would also give the team a chance to drastically up-rate the now bland and dowdy looking interiors. Take a page from Martin Winterkorn at Audi who dramatically improved the QC levels and amenities found in their products.

    Like the 'Whiz-kids' before them a team of 'ARMSMEN' could be assigned point-projects that deserve critical levels of attention. Ford Motor has enough salaried staff on hand to devote 100 individuals every day to a single problem. If even 15% of those are engineers and another 10% designers, then the chance remains that Lincoln can lead the divisions and The Blue Oval back to a healthy status. It took eighteen months to get Willow Run up and running from a San Diego Hotel room sketch by Charles Sorensen, to the first KD units rolling off the line.

    Today we have the advantage of CAD/CAM, thus it is possible to bring out a new Town Car by the spring of 2008 as a 2009 model. The Australian derived project could be a spin-off model that will carry further weight past 2010. However, I still stick to my original "Springfield Plan" to build a state-of-the-art factory within the Continental United States (if Toyota and Nissan can do it, so can we...) to show the world what the Armsmen are really capable of. Such a factory would be the preserve of Lincoln and Continental, and like Astons, use variable "V/H" architecture in order to meet "swing" demand in the market-place as tastes, and economic realities change. Ford Motor could easily place existing revamped chassis into a new factory.

    ...not to mention the degree of benefit in announcing a "state of the art" factory devoted to Lincoln. The time required to get the factory up and running could also cloak development of a new car. Cadillac did that in 1927-29 when it developed the V16. Such an announcement would lead every major news broadcast in America. My question is: are the ARMSMEN up to the task?

    DouglasR

    (sources: Top Gear Magazine February 2006, WSJ, FT, ibid.)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    will be entering the market in 2008. The manufacturer was a bit late entering the market, but has not wasted any time. This vehicle, previewed in the March 2007 edition of Motor Trend, looks to be finally the real deal - an American sedan that can compete with BMW and MBZ and Lexus and perhaps even vanquish them in competition.

    Now this could have been a Lincoln LS, had Ford had the intelligence and capability to improve on the FIRST American luxury sedan to encroach on the Teutonic territory of serious automobiles. But NO, as we all know, Ford gave up that market to the Germans, as they have given up the minivan market to the Japanese.

    Another American company, Chrysler, gave them a run for their money, albeit with the help of their new German overlords at Benz. But the 300, while a step up from the languishing LS, did not take the final steps necessary to meet the Euro and Japanese entrees head on.

    However, one American company has stepped up to the plate and proved that it has the mettle, the engineers, the foresight and the leadership of a real Car Guy to improve on their entry in the entro-lux field to the point where it may well be the one to beat in '08. That company is General Motors and the car of course is the 2008 Cadillac CTS.

    A revolutionary evolution of the Art and Science design theme that conceived the original CTS, this new version sports design details, quality materials and body work that oozes luxury. "You can see GM has spent serious money on this thing." praises MT. From the die-cast metal (NOT plastic) chrome vent near the A-pillar to new aluminum components in the suspension, this CTS has the look of class that Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial have traditionally yearned to exude. This one does it.

    Drivetrains? It has em. Two 6-speed transmissions, one a manual, the other an automatic with paddle shifters on the steering wheel are available. At the outset, they will connect to 2 different engine options, both of which are based on GMs' 3.6 Liter V6. The base engine is DOHC VVT 24 valve w/258 HP. But the optional engine is the big news. 300HP from the same engine block using a first for an American gasoline engine - Direct fuel injection. Of course there'll also be a 500 or so hp CTS-v later. And Caddy is also spreading rumors of a coupe and a Sport Wagon.

    And we all know the CTS is RWD architecture as a true sports sedan should be. But this one will also offer AWD as an option. And a double moonroof. And HIDs that are computer-linked to turn with input from the steering wheel.

    Oh, and the interior is just beautiful. Two-tone with satin-aluminum accents and a center stack that puts anything Ford is doing to absolute shame. It features a SAT/NAV screen that telescopes UP out of the center stack when needed and perfectly in position for a driver to use, not buried just above or just under the radio like so many others.

    Price? Starts at about $31,000. Just a tad above the emm kay zee. Good luck selling that FWD Mazda clone against this actual RWD sports sedan, Lincoln.

    Yep, this is the car that the LS couldda wouldda shouldda been. With a 2 year head start on Cadillac, Ford still dropped the ball. Now Lincoln has a modified Mazda to sell (also previewed in this issue BTW, the best thing MT had to say about the emm kay zee was they liked it and its' name better than the Zephyr) and Caddy has "assured its' place as America's ONLY globally competitive luxury automobile." - Motor Trend.

    Way to go, Cadillac. My congradulations. My only regret is that I won't be able to afford one of these beauties.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    using a first for an American gasoline engine - Direct fuel injection

    Naah, the Solstice turbo was the first from the domestics.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "Naah, the Solstice turbo was the first from the domestics. "

    Better tell MT then. THough I did leave one word out of that sentence and it could negate your point, though I dunno.

    "A first for an American-built engine" was the actual quote.

    WHere is the Solstice turbo built?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Cool, guess MT didnt know that. I certainly didn't. I must add that the Solstice and the Sky are 2 cars I would consider replacing my LS with.

    Now, Back to the car that the LS should have been. That they promised early adopters that it would be ... real ... soon ... now for about 3 years,

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_news070108_2008_cadillac_c- ts

    then, in 2003, they sealed it's fate when they dropped the 5 Speed Getrag option. Instead of pushing a concept they might believe in, a roadster-sedan thing like the base CTS, they just bailed at the earliest opportunity. That's about when Jim Rogers, the Lincoln VP of Marketing then, must have seen the writing on the wall cause he split to a startup. That's California for ya.
    In any case, Jim was one of the early Lincoln people who seemed to "Get It". He lost and he left. At least that's how I remember the history.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    the part left out is that the ls lives on as the mustang.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Only in spirit. And the floor pan and fuel tanks.
  • And please take note of the Pontiac G8, due in less than a year. RWD, great styling (if a bit derivative of BMW), choice of engines. Shortly after the new CTS, and the introduction of the G8, GM will bring out a rear drive Impala with killer styling. GM has a good chance of rising above its mess. Ford is still on life support, and concepts like Interceptor and MKR do not change that, unless the company does something like Douglas suggests and gets a crash program in place to make those possibilities reality. GM is not showing us one off show cars. The Enclave, CTS, G8, Impala, 600 hp Corvette, Camaro, a ton of new Saturns, etc. are all in the pipeline.

    Ford is probably still arguing internally about whether the S Max, Galaxy, Mondeo should be Mercurys, or folded into the present lineup, or consolidated in the next generations of existing American cars. Meanwhile, they have some wonderful products right now (both here and abroad), but rather than bring in the ones Americans can't now buy, they continue to sell Crown Vics and Freestars (what the heck was wrong with the Aerostar name that "Windstar" was supposed to fix??) and 20+ year old Rangers. Why not stretch that Mustang wheelbase a few inches and get a Ford sedan on the road for 2008? Oh, yes, because they dithered around for years with the untrue excuse that the architecture couldn't be used for a 4 door. And that the 500 would one day be seen as more tasteful and timeless than the hot selling, controversial 300. Time to take my meds.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "the part left out is that the ls lives on as the mustang."

    You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

    Does the Mustang have Independent rear suspension?
    Does the Mustang have aluminum suspension?
    Does the Mustang have anti-dive suspension geometry?
    Is the Mustang a Sports Sedan?
    Does the Mustang have better-performing brakes and handling than the BMW 5-series?
    Has the Mustang spent ONE MINUTE being tested at Nürburgring?
    Does the Mustang share ANYTHING with the Jaguar S-Type?
    Can the Mustang seat anyone comfortably in the back seat?

    Please, the Mustang and the LS share almost nothing save maybe the radio. They are as much alike as a 747 and a biplane.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Good answer, gregg! :>)

    Gm has a TON of new exciting product. U mentioned most of them. I'd add the Soltice and Sky, the Acadia and most especially the 2008 Malibu. I was shocked to read that the present Malibu, one ugly, boring piece of rolling metal and plastic, outsells the Fusion by a huge margin. And the Fusion is Ford's big success story! Now, next year Chevy will be presenting for sale probably the best Malibu design EVER, both in and out. I can see this car challenging the CamCords for sales, let alone kicking the Fusions' butt.

    Now, I'm not running out and buying a GM product cause I know my history:>) I'll give them 2 or 3 years to see how the things are holding up. If the reliability looks reasonable, then GM will be my new American car company. I've only ever owned one of their products - a 1997 Tahoe and I must admit it was a trouble-free vehicle. Tough as nails too. Speaking of, the new GM full-size SUVs are also the ones to beat as well. GM has really turned around. I hope Ford can do the same. But I harbor many doubts.

    Oh, one nit, gregg, Ford doesn't sell Freestars anymore. They gave up on minivans. Decided they cant compete. I suppose they think their ne 'people movers' will pick up where the minivans left off? I dunno -there's a lot of soccer Moms who swear by the utility of the Town and COuntry, not to mention the Sienna and Odyssey. Selling them what amounts to an oversized Scion xB I think will be a huge challenge.

    You say that Ford has "some wonderful products right now". In all seriousness and to perhaps jump start this debate, can you name a few Ford products that would fit this bill? In all candor, I dont see ANYTHING. I look at anything they're selling and I can think of competition that outclasses it. Anything. Name one! GO ahead, knock this battery off my shoulder :>)

    Perhaps the ONLY class leader Ford has right now are the Escape/Mariner hybrids. And they're built on Toyota technology. The Mustang is also good, but it's days are numbered by the impending addditon of the Challenger and Camaro to the ring. Is Ford working on a Cougar? A well done Cougar which would be to the 2007 Mustang what the '67 Cougar was to the '67 Stang, is something that very well might end up in my garage. Except Mercury aint the "Sign of the Cat" anymore. Unless it's a PussyCat.
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