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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They've been saying Spring 08 since last summer. Notice that it did not make an appearance at either the Detroit or Chicago auto shows. I think you'll see it later this year, at L.A. and/or Detroit.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yeah, it's a shame because that car could really give Ford, some positive news in some negative times. I still am convinced if done right it could be a hit. I hope it is because that will make GM, improve Buick further and I want Buick to be 80% of Lexus with Lincoln prices. That would be a winning combination. Lincoln, can position itself with being a combination of Cadillac, Lexus, Buick, BMW, Acura, with american design and flair at Acura prices. ;)

    They already have Volvo to be the soft luxury car flagship and have Land Rover to be the Luxury SUV. Aston Martin, needs to be the halo car for the entire brand line-up if they aren't going to sell it. Jaguar needs to be Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, IMHO

    Just my $0.02

    -Rocky
  • I believe Aston is basically sold. It is just a matter of working out the details. Perhaps though, given that Ford plans to keep a small percentage of the stock, there can still be some cross-pollination with Jaguar and Land Rover on powertrains and such.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    gregg - It's called marketing FUD. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. IBM pretty much invented it 1/2 century ago to keep big customers from switching to the rivals cause the next big IBM thing is coming out any day now.

    And, to see a perfect example of FUD working it's magic, read Rockys' recent posts :>)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    gregg_vw,

    Who's the buyer of Aston ?

    Rocky
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I've heard that it's a joint effort between some out of the loop car guys, including the racist Jacques Nasser.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Can you elaborate heyjewel ?

    Rocky
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Do I have to? Read your own posts. You're afraid to buy anything today cause something better might be announced tomorrow. You wrote it yourself:>)

    Suggestion - figure out your favorite car/SUV/CUV that's been out say 2 years. Find and buy a nice used one so you wont eat a ton of depreciation. Then drive it a couple of years til the emmkayvolvo or Buick Velite or whateve yoru REALLY want is released.

    Pretty good advice, eh?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Really.......Interesting.....Keep me informed. :)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Pretty good advice, eh?

    I agree you gave good advice. I've actually have thought about doing that but with a car that's a little older than that even. I however do like the new 07' GMC Sierra Denali, enough to own. I might just buy one of those and drive it for a couple years and then trade it in or sell it if a Buick Velite, does come. My GM Employee discount would eat up most if any loss on a Sierra Denali that might occur if I swapped early. ;)

    Rocky
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Cool. You'd be nuts to buy a Ford when u have a GM discount. Denali is a beaty of a truck. Or SUV. Whatever. Go buy one and use your remaining neurons for some more important thinking. Like which one of the DCs to 4WD over after Natalie. I cant tell them apart myself. Are they clones?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's drop the personal off topic back and forth NOW. If you have something to say about the topic, fine. But let's drop the sniping.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239

    They already have Volvo to be the soft luxury car flagship and have Land Rover to be the Luxury SUV. Aston Martin, needs to be the halo car for the entire brand line-up if they aren't going to sell it. Jaguar needs to be Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, IMHO


    If you take Aston out, which it's always sort of been from a comparitive state - I think Land/Rover - Jaguar should be combined into one unit, and combined dealers. It needs to compete with Audi, MB and BMW on the British level, pip, pip. Lincoln should be re-invented to compete with Cadillac. Back to the past, I say! Tallyho! Natalie drives an Avalanche with FatNat on the plate anyway.....
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    ROTFLMAO :D

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Even if ARM gives Lincoln enough rope to either hang or go, it's going to take them years to catch up to Cadillac in reputation. It took abouty 15 years to kill Cadillac's rep as the standard of the world, and about 10 to resurrect it. Admittedly, everyone doesn't yet know how dead Lincoln is (although the death of the Navigator is a good start on the end) but how fast it can turn around? That's the question....

    TOWN CAR: It can be big, and it can be stately, and it can be a bit ponderous, but it MUST become luxurious again. Big plush seats, tons of standard features, and a few options only, like Navigation or not, moonroof or not, perhaps 2 or 3 trim levels, but they have to be NICE inside, and a complete revamp of the aircraft carrier dash would really help.

    LS: Should be retained, and redesigned probably on a modified Mustang platform, RWD a must and must remain a 5 series sized performance car. IF they must, they could re-name it MKLS.

    MKZ: I guess it can stay, but I don't like it.

    MKS: I think it's a mistake, places the car in Acura RL status - and that car doesn't sell well.

    MKR: Get it out here, BEFORE you drop the Town Car. Call it a Town Car, dammit.

    MKX: I pretty much hate it, and predict it'll flop.

    NAVIGATOR: Make it stately and intimidating like it used to be. Please put electroluminescent guage clusters back in them!! All Lincolns should have them.

    Bring back the Aviator.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Seems that Land Rover and Jaguar are somewhat joined at the hip already. I've been poking around the boards for the new LR2 and have learned that this SUV, well, CUV really, will me made at a Jaguar factory.

    Gotta love the Avalanche joke. I presume it is a joke? These people wouldnt really drive SUVs would they?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Umm, ... Howard, ... the LS has been killed. It is gone. Replaced by a Mazda. You'll have to deal with it.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    NV, I don't like the MKZ, either. In fact, with the updates to the 2008 Taurus and Sable, I would rather own one of those than a Z.

    I think the entry level Lincoln should be on the Taurus/Sable platform instead of the Modified Mazda. In other words, I think the MKS should be the entry level model. It will be a V6 and on a longer wheelbase than an ES350 with more room inside.

    The sport sedan model should be just like the MKR concept. Finally the Town Car should be just as you discribed and would be the flagship luxury Lincoln - big, stately, V8 powered.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Land Rover and Jaguar are one unit.

    Behind the scenes they are the same company and that is why Ford can't sell Jag without selling Land Rover.

    Many Land Rover dealers are combined with Jag dealers as well.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    That's good - I very nearly bought an XJL for my business car when I got the Lexus - it was just a bit low to the ground and small for my needs. I'm still considering a Range Rover Sport for my next SUV.... I hate to see Ford sell the brands....I think they give Ford an edge that GM does not have, and won't be able to acquire.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    MKX: I pretty much hate it, and predict it'll flop.

    I notice that was before your 2/18 post on the MKX forum, nvbanker. After sitting inside, would you still say you hate it and predict it'll flop?

    I finally stopped by my LM dealer and sat in an MKX and agree with nvbanker's assessment of the interior. It seemed of good quality and functional design. I didn't find the dash too high. Unlike him, I kind of like the exterior, including the front end. It's all a matter of taste as far as that goes.

    The salesman said they have an average on-lot time of less than a week for their MKXs and have sold 9 of them in the last month. Perhaps that portends well for where Ford is taking Lincoln. (Where those 9 sales are, though, I don't know. I haven't seen any but one on the road.)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    No, I've changed my assessment a little, and upgraded the MKX to a "Hold" based on my interior visit. I need to drive one, and if they're a heavenly driver, I may reassess again. Still can't warm up to the exterior view, but maybe it'll grow on me. Looks too "edgy", if you know what I mean...
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    Govenor Granholm of Michigan granted Ford Motor $331Mn in aide to prevent Ford from pulling the plug on 13,000 jobs at six plants in Michigan (January 19,07)

    Ford had refused such aide for Wixom, WCF hell-bent on killing the plant. Fortunately a great many people across the land wrote into Ford Motor protesting the end of the Town-Car and thus its fate was spared and moved to St. Thomas. And even-though a Canadain Railways Strike has temporarily halted production at that site, the future of the rwd platform is not dead. The money given now to Michigan plants is money that Ford can offset for Lincoln.

    The Armsmen should gather forthwith in an appropriate skunk-works away from the prying eyes of the Glass House and hot rod the existing platform. Especially considering that if GM buys Chyrsler, the fate of Imperial is almost certain to be up in the air---as GM would not want a Cadillac competitor. So Lincoln has a unique chance to step in between the market and regain some of its lost position.

    CAD/CAM 4/5 allows a narrow window for producing products from scratch to production within a very short amount of time: six months. W.H. Smith & Sons Ltd. is the finest moulded parts supplier to both Aston-Martin and Bentley, especially custom leather covered parts as door-panels and dash frames. Their designers as Marek Reichmann and Raul Pires able to rely on WHS to build prototype interior parts for examination in less than 30 days. Intier, for example, provides all the interior trim for Cadillac and works with their design staff to supply prototypes. The Aston Rapide prototype was built in six months on the existing DB9 platform.

    Thus the tools exist that Lincoln, and the Armsmen can take a current TC platform, remake the interior and bring its level up three or four notches. Exterior sheetmetal could be changed to bring it up to date. But the important ingredient is the engine. The bay can accept anything that Ford makes. So Lincoln can build anything from diesels to high performance engines. That is what they need to do: drop a Mustang varient 300-50Bhp plus engine into the car. Beef up the brakes and springs/shocks, etc. and viola! A transformed Town Car. Anyone who drives it will be shocked.

    They won't expect a Town Car to be FASTER than a Chrysler 300, but that is what MUST be done. No debates. Simply shock prospective buyers as to the ride/drive of the car. Nor should Lincoln wait for people to come to them, they must caravan a group of cars around the nation offering test drives---from the office or the home. People no longer fly with the same frequency, so the old rental game won't work, thus Lincoln must bring the product to the people. Lincoln has not the time to wait for buyers to come to the dealer. Lincoln can directly engage the customer, and then let the dealer do his job. While the new TC should out-perform the 300, it's interior should put Cadillac to shame.

    Using the existing platform would save $500Mn. Mustang was revamped under Troutman for $750Mn, so Lincoln could use the same amount of money with TC. Roll the new car out to customers first and then announce it AFTER people start seeing it on the street. IN such fashion people will ask: "Hey that's a nice Lincoln, when did they start doing that?" Making the potential customer inquire about the product with no prompting.

    Time frame: Starting Tomorrow, the first cars for customer inspection could see the light of day by December of this year, production starting March 1, 2008.

    DouglasR

    (Sources: Office of Governor Granholm, Michigan; BBC World News; W.H. Smith & Sons Ltd.U.K.; WSJ; FT)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Did either of you note, as I did, that the door panels are hard plastic basically from top to bottom? Dont seem to belong on a $35000 vehicle to me.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Douglas, you make some good points, as usual. I have said in the past that I thought the Panther platform was obsolete. However, under the current circumstances of needing better product faster and for less money, I have changed my mind.

    The long wheelbase version of the Panther, as used in the Signature L, would be a good basis upon which to hang new sheetmetal (using some cues from the MKR). Get rid of the huge overhangs to keep the overall length down, and have an "ultimate" model with interior luxury second to none. The long wheelbase model has much better rear seat room than the shorter version. An updated TC on this platform would be welcomed by retail buyers and the livery folks would still have the ruggedness and simplicity that they like.

    As for the engine, the upcoming Hurricane would be great but even the 5.4 with 3 valve heads could easily be tuned for 325-350 HP. They already have a 6 speed automatic for RWD applications that would handle the torque.

    I have no reason to think that Lincoln would actually do this but it sounds like a decent idea to me. I would think it could be done faster than starting from scratch.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Yes, the door panels are the one part of the interior that struck me as kind of cheap. I wondered how well they might hold up to kids, dogs, and the rigors of daily use.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I agree NV on the exterior assessment. Got a really good look at one this morning, all around. Is it me or did Lincoln graft the rear-light treatment from the deceased Continental onto the back of it? OR maybe I'm thinking the Mark VIII? The exterior treatments are funky (in a very bad way) to me. The headlight/grille treatment is definitely old-school Lincoln, but... Will have to review interior appointment up close, not sure if I want to take a test drive in it.
  • Face it...it's an Edge with an upgraded interior, a Lincoln grill and very cheap talilight extensions grafted on to the tailgate. It's basically an badge engineered job on the exterior. Too bad Mulally didn't get here sooner. He might have insisted on it having its own look, like the Aviator concept did (not one panel shared with the Edge).

    I do think part of the dislike of the exterior expressed here is based on some folks not liking the chunky CUV shape in general. It's a genre that is selling now, but I don't think it's a concept that is supposed to be pretty or sexy or sleek. nor is it brawny like the big SUVs. Maybe some day we will look back and wonder why people were so taken with such chunky-blocky, relatively overpriced and overweight 6 cylinder thing-ies.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    ..I do think part of the dislike of the exterior expressed here is based on some folks not liking the chunky CUV shape in general...

    I think you're right. I got a good look at a couple Mazda CUVs in traffic yesterday. Didn't like them one bit, front - back, side-side. Feel the same about the MB R-Class (I want to say RL?) - prefer the "lunch-box" G-Wagen. But saw a picture of the GMC Arcadia in Auto Week, and kind of liked the front-end treatment. Even though I wouldn't buy one I thought the front end was decent. I actually think the Pacifica, the Ford wagon (can't think of the name) and the like look better, maybe as they aren't chunky-swoopy like the CUVs.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    While the new TC should out-perform the 300, it's interior should put Cadillac to shame.

    And that isn't that hard to do! I drove an XLR today - was very unimpressed with the look or feel of the interior. Your Nissan Altima is as good looking and as good feeling as the $100,000 Cadillac was.

    I agree with your instructions to Lincoln - hope someone is reading....
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    From the pictures at least the 08 CTS has a MUCH improved interior. Still not in MB or Lexus league but much closer than Lincoln or any previous Caddy offerings.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Perhaps Ford's strategy reflects this old saying:

    "If you owe $10,000, the bank owns you. If you owe $100 million, you own the bank."
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    More news from Ford -
    * Yesterday tens of thousands of Ford employees were shown the door. "The engineering offices look like swiss cheese now with all the empty cubicles" said one remaining worker.
    * Ford told employees that its North American turnaround plan already has veered off track. The company missed its internal retail sales goals for January, despite having set its sights low. The February numbers that are due out today are also expected to be grim.
    * In response, today Ford announced they are giving another million dollars to Alan Mulally because he's done such a good job. ;)
    * Ford also announced lots of cash awards to other senior executives for the great job they did getting rid of so many other employees.
    * Ford announced that it will pay for Mark Fields to commute between Detroit and Florida in first class accomodations. More employees to be fired soon to pay for those tickets I guess.
    * Fields had announced he would eschew flying in corporate jets to his home in Florida, now we know why. In other news, Ford has announced that Alan Mulallys' family can fly corporate jets whenever they want whether Alan is travelling with them or not. Meantime, Ford announced that the UAW better be ready to make concessions this year.
    * Ford announced they'll be selling a subcompact soon - it will be made in Brazil.

    In related news, I've pretty much had it with American business in general and Ford in particular. Enough already with Detroit - they've been screwing me for 30 years. I've decided it's time to give the Japanese the opportunity to screw me now.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    "Rank has its privileges"

    To obtain the high rank requires a high education of at least a Masters in some form of Engineering.

    Those high ranking engineers know what they did to earn their positions and the factory workers know what they didn't do to be where they are.

    We all make our own choices in life. Live with them. ;)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I have a Masters in Engineering too. I'm living with it. I'm not advocating communism here, just maybe a bit of fairness? A lot of those people who packed up their cubes yesterday had masters degrees as well.

    Meanwhile 'beautiful hair Fields' has free first class accoms to/from Florida. And AMs family has free corporate jets to satisfy their whims. "Life's calling Mrs Mulally. Where to next?" That's not a choice in life, that's highway robbery.
  • Well, if you hafta get screwed, it will probably hurt less coming from the Japanese...
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    See that kind of enron-ish appropriations makes me hope Ford goes under (and I'm a huge domestic supporter). Here they are on the ropes, and the execs still funnel money into their pockets--money that could be used to help a struggling Lincoln.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    The corporate excess of the last couple of decades is pretty appalling, and the disparity between the senior corporate ranks and the rank and file is immoral. I'm just not sure it's any better anywhere else. Sorry, but if your company isn't turning a profit, you shouldn't, either.

    Of course, I may just be sour because I'm not sharing in that corporate greed! :cry:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Sorry, but if your company isn't turning a profit, you shouldn't, either.

    So how does a company in the red get a CEO that's capable of turning the company around if they don't get paid?

    I understand what you meant and I agree there are way too many bad executives making big bucks and not delivering. However...

    If you want to retain good executives (or those you think are good) then you must pay them whatever the market demands. If you don't, then they leave and go to another company that is willing to pay them. Just like free agency in sports. If you can't retain any of your executives then you can't possibly run the company effectively. Ultimately every non union job out there is worth whatever companies are willing to pay for that type of work. It may not be fair, but that's life.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Sure, you gotta get a good man (or woman) for the job. And pay them a healthy salary. OK fine. That said, do you then:

    * Announce you're tossing him ANOTHER $million dollars on the SAME day that tens of thousands of people who've worked for Ford for years and decades are cleaning out their desks and going home for the last time?
    * Also announce lots of new cash for "executives" on that same red letter day?
    * Announce FREE first class trips for a guy, MF, who has got to be a big part of the problem rather than the solution? What, the freaking guy cant live in Dearborn, he's too good for that? The company has to pay him first class tickets to fly back and forth to Florida a minimum of once a week?
    * And the big smart AM cant use some of his $20 or so Millions to fly his wife to Tahiti? The company has to pay to fly his freaking family all over the world at their whim and with no regard for company business?
    * And you're giving AM/MF all these perks because of what? A 12.7 BILLION dollar LOSS on their watch? Their own self-proclaimed FAILURE to meet even their LOW sales expectations?

    Now these geniuses have empty engineering cubicles, fewer mfg plants and grim sales figures again for February are expected, but more millions are thrown at them? Is THIS how u turn a company around? Sorry, doesn't work for me.

    Why don't we check, BTW, how much Toyota pays the guy that runs their company? WHat the delta is between his pay and the loser that puts the wheels on the Tundra in Texas or the Corrolla in Hiroshima? Who wans to bet those two salaries are orders of magnitude closer than Pedro the Fusion builders' salary is to the great Mark Fields (who's done WHAT? EXACTLY WHAT has he done?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    To answer my own question MF has done NOTHING but bring back the Taurus and the (BLECH) Sable names.

    Now, just now comes the announcement of Feb sales figures. The day after more millions were thrown at these geniuses, FOrd announces sales OFF 13.5% Yep, DOWN 13.5 percent. Even CHrysler, who did NOT bring in a genius to turn them around, was down only 8% GM figures not out yet.

    I figure tomorrow, they'll give AM and MF each a yacht for their good work based on this new news. Good going guys.
  • GM's figures are up. They apparently had the good sense to start turning around a disaster earlier. Ford, instead, stuck with the team headed by Mr. Ford as things went down further. You recall that Bill Ford basically gutted Lincoln, closed plants and let go workers with golden parachutes sucking on the company coffers, and pinned too many hopes on a boring car.

    I don't know if ARM has been around long enough to see any sales increases. They need product first. I may be wrong, but I think it was Fields and his good hair that re-started the Hurricane program. (It is just so completely insane that it was cancelled at all.) I think ARM has taken some of the product and financial decisions away from the board. Since he has been there, they have started issuing concepts again, and this time (as opposed to 2002), he means for them to follow up with product. He has put his support behind Lincoln and a rear drive platform. He has ordered them to stop the stupid practice of designing similar cars on different platforms in different parts of the world.

    But all of that can't do a thing right now for the sales of the 07 Focus, the 07 500, the 07 Explorer, etc., or the unfortunate update of the Expedition. He is also saddled with the tepid 08 re-dos of the Super Duty (which should sell well regardless), and the 08 Focus, Escape and Taurus/Sable. And most of these unexciting products aren't even in showrooms yet.

    So, yes, maybe you are right. This company should be toast and maybe already is. Maybe the fools called the shots for too long to save it now. But I am not going to put it on ARM. How would you increase sales of the 07 line-up? The best thing they can do is get the darn things out of the showroom as best they can, and push-push-push the Edge, Fusion, Mustang and F150 for all they are worth, and try to hang on until the Fairlane and MKS and rear drive sedans get here. I sure am not betting they can do it. But better ARM than Bill, even on the way out.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Where did u see GM up? I saw GM didnt report yet. I did see they wer up 3.4% LAST month in the same Detroit news article that reported on F and C

    "How would you increase sales of the 07 line-up?"

    Simple. Change the names to 'Toyota'. That oughtta do it.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Sorry, but if your company isn't turning a profit, you shouldn't, either.

    So how does a company in the red get a CEO that's capable of turning the company around if they don't get paid?


    Yes, that was a little extreme, of course.

    Ultimately every non union job out there is worth whatever companies are willing to pay for that type of work. It may not be fair, but that's life.

    No disagreements there. Life isn't fair.

    I think my outburst was directed at America corporate culture in general, not Ford in particular. Hence, it was out of place here in a Ford forum and better suited to a socioeconomics/ethics forum!
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Agreed. Sounds like were I used to work a few years ago, very similar thing happened. Rewarded failure. Only exceptions were:

    Company was bankrupt and promised severance packages were denied. CEO goes into court, vowing to get the severances back; instead comes out with a 100% raise :confuse: , along with other perks, including those for family members.

    Guess he needed cheese on his Whopper!
  • Caught me. You are one sharp guy. Still, I can't imagine GM will be down 13.5%.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Hey, sorry but I just found this topic. As a resident of Lincoln, in the UK, I can confirm that Ford is not taking our fair and ancient city anywhere. It's not for sale. Just thought you'd like to know. :D
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Not that I am really doubting you, heyjewel, but this is an amazing story. Is this all on BON? Not completely a credible source on these things....since it's published by a bunch of disgruntled former Ford employees....
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