Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
"B. The rectangular center stack panel containing the stereo and climate controls looks like something you might have seen in a 1970s delivery truck."
And you know darn well that X-plan is NOT dealer invoice. Why cant u stay honest and on topic? It's not on ME as a customer to be sure Lincoln takes enough of my money to be profitable. I dont walk into a dealership and say "Please sell me a car at whatever it takes to pay your outrageous labor costs, executive perks, buy-out costs and lawyer fees." Do YOU? NO, I go in there intent on getting the very best deal I can for myself and my family. In fact, I almost ALWAYS go in knowing more about the car than just about anyone who is selling the thing. And since I already KNOW that I got my LS at X-plan and I KNOW that the MKS is much cheaper to make than the LS, then I KNOW there's more money to work with in there and I will negotiate with that knowledge. Since there's only 3 Lincoln dealers left around here now (there were 6 in 2001) my chances may be diminished. But I would consider that Ford's loss, not mine, as I would NOT expect to pay less for the car than they require to make money. And I will add that having purchased 2 brand new Lincolns in the past 7 years, I already KNOW that Lincoln does not care about me as a customer. :P
And please, enuf with the Jag XF already. It really doesn't do your argument any good. I encourage ALL readers of this thread to take a look at the JAG XF and wonder what a Lincoln based on that platform may have looked like. And of course DEW-98 wasn't perfect. What is? That's why a good platform gets REFINED which has happened to DEW-98. I'm not sure what it's called, let's say DEW-2005 for grins. The XF rides on it. And it's "only" $49K, so Lincoln could have sold one for a Lincoln price. And there aren't many convertibles around that DON'T have extra cross-bracing over their siblings with fixed metal roofs. And we've been over the engine fitment so many times it's boring already. The 4.2 V8 would satisfy me just fine! As would a 340hp eco-boost V6 which would also fit, eh? Why cant YOU admit that might have been a good idea?
IF I was in the market for a car right now, Lincoln would NOT even be on the radar. And that from a guy whose last 3 vehicles have been Lincolns. I would look at the Infinit M and G, the Jag XF, the CTS, ... Even when the S comes out, it won't compete well with any of these. IMHO.
Really, the same is true of the LS/Jag platform. It is/was Ford's to use, modify, update, or abandon. Or just get inspiration from, like they did with the Mustang platform. The aluminum suspension pieces that were so pricey...you saying engineers could not modify these in another direction, as they did when they produced the new Mustang platform?
You know it could have been developed. But bean counters said no, because of their unrealistic sales projections for a car with much promise, but lacking the finishing details. They threw in the towel because it did not sell more than 50,000 a year, and they pulled a figure of 100,000 out of their butts as a measure of success. It's about as dumb as when they were disappointed by the very good sales of the new T-bird $40K two seater...no matter it did well in this specialized market. It didn't meet their unrealistic sales expectations. Kind of like killing the 1997 T-bird because sales had fallen to merely 70,000...on an underpowered car that hadn't been significantly restyled since fall of 1988.
The current iteration, the Jaguar XF, is more expensive than Lincoln wished to go. But Jaguar did go there, and all early drives say the XF is a contender. It is not the same 10 year old platform. It is modified and improved.
Lincoln could have done modifications and improvements with an eye toward cost savings as well from the same basic platform over the past 10 years. I think Joe's point is that they chose not to do so. They saw the front drive route as a better business case. They decided this apparently just as Cadillac bit the bullet and decided to turn the ho hum Catera into a contender.
The LS could have become a standard by now, like the BMW 5 (or the Honda Accord in its class). Like the CTS has become in a mere short two generations. I know, I know, woulda coulda shoulda. The point is, they could have solved some of the problems that made the LS less than profitable. They could have been much further ahead now than they are with a bit of thought and some understanding of the luxury sedan and sport sedan markets.
Of course it makes no sense now, under the new regime especially, to start working on modifying what is now an old platform with issues. And it is true that Ford really does have to stop reinventing the wheel in every corner of the world. Heck, if there had been any brain power at the helm 10 years ago, the Crown Vic platform could have been the basis of yet another way to move into this arena. After all, somehow they figured a way to put IRS in the previous Fox Mustang platform.
For now, they have settled on a new platform that involves neither DEW98 nor Panther. I applaud that they are finally doing something in a committed way. But what a way to run a business! No wonder the current lineup remains so uninspired.
However, X-plan has always been explained to me as 4% ABOVE dealer invoice. That's why I said what I said. Now, what many people dont know is the dirty little secret, true with all makers AFAIK, that there's "dealer invoice" and then there's "dealer invoice". I think Allen knows this. Maybe his figures refer to the one that my figures do not. If u understand my meaning. :confuse: In any case, I would certainly call into question any figures which purport to sell a Ford under X-plan at a cost less than the dealer paid for it. That's what Allen's figures work out to. So in a wierd sort of way, we're both right about this. Further, there is also "A-Plan" which sells the car for even less than X-Plan. Which woiuld mean Ford would lose money on every Ford or Lincoln under A plan. We all know they dont.
And last, whew, Lincoln would NOT sell their new DEW-2005 car for the same price as Jaguar any more than they sold the LS for the same price as the S-Type. The Lincoln would be cheaper by decontenting, using cheaper materials, not using active CATs suspension etc. Again, Allen knows this I just dont understand why he's so STUCK on his position.
Are you referring to the holdback? The percent manufacturers provide the dealer after a sale is made? The holdback is not figured in to the invoice price.
My point is that Lincoln's image is tarnished. They had no product after 1999 and nothing on the drawing board until the half-assed Zephyr. They could introduce the greatest sports sedan on earth and it would be met with a big yawn. The LS did Lincoln no favors with the buying public. It never quite measured up to BMW and the early models had their share of issues. Then it was allowed to die on the vine. The Lincoln brand had become irrelevant.
Lincoln is doing the right thing to rebuild the image. Even though I have no affection for the MKZ and MKX, their sales are rising. The MKS will help much more. By the time a decent RWD model is available, Lincoln will be in a better position, image wise, to take advantage of it. Keep in mind that more people are buying FWD V6 ES350s than CTSs. The old DTS was close in sales figures to the CTS. The FWD Buick Lucerne outsold both in 2007 by a large margin.
Even though the MKS is not exactly your or my cup of tea, it is in a decent spot for sales success. It can help Lincoln gain relevance by offering high technology, size, quality, and luxury at an entry level luxury price.
Ford totally mismanaged Lincoln from around 2002 until last year IMO. I don't think 100,000 was an arbitrary measure of success - that's the business case that was submitted that said they could make money at that volume. And that was WAY too optimistic and included a large sales volume in Europe. Add to that the corporate limitations of not competing with Jaguar domestically, plus the corporate decision to cut their budget when money ran short and kill all the new products, totally ignoring Australia as a potential partner, etc. and it was total ineptitude. After that there was no funding available for new platforms so they chose to kill the LS and reuse Ford platforms. I agree that was wrong and so does Mulally and Fields apparently.
Even if you ignore the lack of stiffness (I believe even the D3 platform is several orders of magnitude better than dew98 in this area), there is the issue of no rear set legroom. My Fusion has much more back seat room and is easier to get in and out of than my LS. Then you're stuck with a Jag based 4.2L AJ V8 as your biggest possible engine. Yes, you can supercharge it but now you're taking an expensive, low volume engine and making it really expensive. And you can't really use that engine or a variation of it in anything else.
Do I think Lincoln should have continued making the LS and given it the 4.2L and SC options and let it go head to head with Jag? ABSOLUTELY! I never meant to imply that dew98 should have been killed. I think it could have worked as a stopgap until a new RWD platform could have been developed, but it would have required at least one or two other models AND permission from marketing to go head to head with Jag. And some investment in better interiors, etc.
It still irks me to this day when people talk about Caddy and how the CTS was the first American sports car and the first one tuned on the "Ring" because we know darn well the LS was there when the CTS was just a gleam in the designer's eye. But that's water under the bridge.
However, the question is what to do now - and I just don't see the value in resurrecting a platform like that today. I think the D3 based MKS and CD3 based MKZ and MKX is the better business decision for the company TODAY while they retool with a new GRWD platform and new engines.
Dealer Invoice - the amount Ford pays the dealer. Set by the factory.
Holdback - usually 3%. This is paid back to the dealer separately. This money is used by the dealer to "floorplan" their vehicles - basically they defer paying for the vehicle until it's sold and instead pay a monthly interest fee. This is supposed to equate to roughly 90 days on the lot. So if a dealer has a car that's been on the lot for 90 days they've already lost the holdback amount. So it's not fair to just call it extra profit, even though on an ordered vehicle that's how it works out.
X plan - this is either 0.4% below (Ford/Mercury) or 0.6% above (Lincoln) the dealer invoice price plus $75. This is for Ford partner companies and employee friends and family.
A plan - this is the Ford employee price and it's 4% below the X plan price (which puts it below actual dealer cost even counting the 3% holdback).
D plan - this is for Ford dealership employees. I think it's A plan plus $100.
Z plan - for Ford retirees. I think it's A plan plus $200.
Now - on any A/X/D/Z plan sale, Ford sends the dealer a spiff check - commission - to make up for lost profit. I've been told it's roughly $400 for X plan - not sure about the others - they may be higher. I know my salesman said the owner of his dealership lets them keep the spiff check when they buy something on D plan, so his price is actually lower than what Ford employees get on A plan.
In other words - X plan is a great no haggle price and the dealer still makes a few hundred bucks profit.
WHERE IS FORD TAKING LINCOLN?
Don't be such an asspie.
Once again I must thank gregg for stating my opinion much more diplomatically than I would have!
Have I been asleep at the wheel because I have not noticed the "T"...
Thanks...
That pretty well sums it up -- well put.
Lincoln may have figured out where it belongs -- among, and selling to, the masses. Nothing special, but that's pretty much the recipe for success -- middle of the road, catch the center of the bell curve, and all that.
Some of us prefer to function at the tails of the bell curve, and that's where the LS was. Heavy on the was.
Toyota, Honda & several other automakers have made a very pleasant living off the lowest common denominator, and it appears Lincoln wants to join them.
I don't think it is the end of the world for Lincoln, however. They are in a rebuilding mode. The initial strategy seems to be go downmarket for some needed volume prior to moving upmarket after establishing credibility. That just might work. If the MKS and MKT can achieve some success, they may be in a position to capitalize on some future models nearer the tails of the curve.
To be a good appliance, quality, reliability and features get you to that sweet spot. Lincoln has a ways to go to be there, just as it has a ways to go if it wants any of the tail of the curve.
I hope they don't screw it up preparing it for real production. They dumbed down the divided grill from MKR to MKS so much that it hardly draws the eye anymore. (And what were they thinking with that MKS lower grill filled with thin horizontal chrome lines bearing no relationship to the upper grill, or any of the rest of the car?)
I think the MKT (and to some degree the MKS - particularly the new gadgets) show that Ford is NOW willing to give Lincoln what it needs and with Jag out of the picture there should be no marketing interference. Now it's just a matter of whether they can deliver the goods and how long it will take.
Well, this is the big fly in the ointment. While we MAY soon see more competitive vehicles from Ford and already are seeing them from GM, our American companies have absolutely GOT TO step and build more reliable vehicles as well. Some of the stuff I read on the LS board and worse, the MK X board, just EG, is ominous. It is my considered opinion, based on my experiences and reading and talking with other car owners, that this may be the last chance the American makers have. They have already alienated I wanna say 50% of the car buying public. I think I've seen that stat from a poll. In any case, it's a fact that are a huge number of people who wont even consider an American car (and in my experience it's the same people who would never consider voting Republican, but that's just anecdotal). And each time a young or first time buyer slips into a Civic or Scion that goes 300,000 miles without a lot of maintenance costs, -or- some similar person buys a Cobalt or Focus that breaks the bank, each of these becomes a new comfirmed import buyer.
Detroit has got to stop this trend. While the Saturn Aura appears to be a competitive machine, the repair records for it apparently are o0ld school Detroit. If the heralded Malibu ends up that way in a couple years, I think it's the beginning of the end.
If Ford is gonna play in Hondas yard and Lincoln in Acuras, they had BETTER bring some quality and reliability to the party or the party's over. Initial results for the Fusion triplets seem promising. Why that hasnt carried over to Edge and X is anyone's guess. But they better stop the black dots in CR or the red ink will son smother them. I do hope and wish they will.
One person had a bad paint job that anyone could have spotted before it left the factory - a paint robot was obviously out of paint or having problems. You can see the primer in several areas.
Also a few other assorted minor problems. Not indicative of long term reliability problems but rather poor quality control at the factory.
"The CHEAPENING - ahem, popularization - of Lincoln is working. Migrating to mostly Volvo-based FWD platforms and targeting Buicks instead of Cadillac has grown sales and lowered the age of the brand's buyers. ... IF THINGS KEEP GOING THIS WAY THE DEATH OF MERCURY IS INEVITABLE."
(Aside - do they not realize that NO present Lincoln model is based on the volvo while TWO are based on a Mazda?)
The above words are associated with a few pix of the MK T. Which the writer at MT didn't really like. The growing of sales at Lincoln is a bit laughable as it's basically due to having another model to sell. But no matter. It's a fact, Jack, that Lincoln is not what it used to be, nor does it aspire to be what it used to be. Lincoln now wants to be what Mercury should have been for the last 20 years - a good step up from Ford and a competitor to Buick. So there is no more need for Mercury. Anyone want to take this bet?: When the mks and the next gen taurus arrive, Mercury will be given the boot. (Lincoln Mariner anyone?) And Ford will be trying to take much more of our money for much less (Lincoln) of a product. Good for them. Bad for us. Not me, I'll be buying from someone else.
I think the new Ford "kinetic" styling is really nice - like the new Kuga, Fiesta, Mondeo (or the Verve concept) ---- unfortunately we won't see it here in the States for a few more years....that's another of Ford's problems - their best cars are all in Europe or Australia....
BMW buyers are not likely to cross-shop any Lincoln at this time. Lexus ES buyers are much more likely to. The simple fact is that Lincoln is in a much better position to be competitive in that "soft" luxury market as you call it than they are going after the BMW crowd. There are plenty of sales to be had in that "soft" market, too.
When Lincoln has a proper RWD platform in a couple of years, they may be able to expand their horizons. In the meantime, they can gain traction and sales with the MKS and MKT.
However, other than the LS, when in the last 20 years has Lincoln been anything really special? The TC is based on the Crown Vic. The Mark VII was loosely based on the Fox, the Mark VIII was on the MN12, and the Conti was on the Taurus. The only time Lincoln had a really special model was the LS. How did that work out for them?
The good news is that the D3 is a much better and more competitive basis for a luxury car than any platform Lincoln has used before. The DEW98 made a much better sports/luxury platform, for sure, but that train has left the station.
But do you think that by that time people will equate Lincoln to "soft" luxury and not consider them a "premium" mark? As posters here have already stated Lincoln is slipping fast and it's current / new offerings really make it more of Mercury in FOMOCO's line-up.
Until Ford itself can pull itself up I see Merc and Linc being starved of real competitive products, let alone break-out products. And if/when these products come I really hope that FOMOCO / Lincoln learned from their past mistakes and keep the product fresh & a step above its competition and not let it die on the vine (hate to beat a dead horse but the LS just makes such a great example)
I dunno - I don't necessarily think "soft" luxury is bad - I'd consider Rolls Royce to be a "soft" luxury car i.e. the priority is on smooth ride, quietness, etc... not on sharp handling, top speed, acceleration. etc.... I'd consider a lot of Lexuses to be "soft" luxury, too... The Cadillac DTS is also in that category IMO....not necessarily a bad thing... Not everybody wants a BMW M5 or an AMG Mercedes
As for new products, Lincoln is not being snubbed - Mercury is. Lincoln has 2 new vehicles ready within the next 18 months - MKS and MKT. New RWD vehicles to replace the Town Car/GM/CV are just underway. Updates to the MKZ are due by the end of the year and MKX update is due next year. Navigator is supposed to get a new 6.2L V8 by the end of this year and hopefully new styling by next year.
Ford is also building a brand new B car (Fiesta/Verve) and totally redoing the Taurus for next year.
Now, I fully realize it will take time for Lincoln to have "grab you by the shirt collar" product(s) but my questions are:
Will these MK* products pull people (existing that are looking for an upgrade and conquest) into Lincoln
Are these products going to be good enough to hold on to these buyers or will they push them away. For instance will these products be "full" when their intro'd or will they be 75 ~ 85 percent complete, like new flashy body but lackluster powertrain; an interior that has a nice dash layout but it's surrounded by too much hard plastic.
Are there people out there willing to buy these with the promise of bigger / better tomorrow
Will that tomorrow come
The MKT has the potential to be done right from the beginning, unlike the MKS, which though sleeker than a Taurus (what isn't), is bottom line still a too tall pudgy sedan with too short a wheelbase.
Even though the MKT shares a platform with the Flex, no one would ever guess that without being told. Further, the MKT is the first crossover that has a luxury sedan flavor to its profile. The bustle back gives it that presence of an upscale sedan from the 1940s: tall, roomy, but not a wagon look. Something to be proud seen touring in. I'm holding my breath that they don't screw it up too much between concept and production. Like the Navigator was back in 1998 (and hasn't been for quite some time), it could be a phenomenon among conspicuous consumers.
The MKS..not so much. But the S will still be much better received than the Z and X, I think.
Maybe when I'm old(er), Lincoln will once again have panache and cache, regardless of whether soft luxury or sporting or both. Or not.
Let's see, how does that go: "Otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln (you can't make this stuff up), how did you like the play?"
If the only time in your life (approaching six decades) you've even considered being seen in (let alone owning) a Lincoln had to do with the LS, you may appreciate how irrelevant the brand was to me then and has become to me now.
But that's just me. I'm sure the masses are more than willing to make up the difference.
After the RWD platform is ready in a couple of years, I have a hard time seeing the need for the MKZ. It seems to me that the MKS should become the entry-level Lincoln. The Z is more of an upscale intermediate and an improved Fusion could fill that role. The MKS looks pretty appealing, content wise and price wise, compared to the ES350 and its ilk. I would like to see two versions of the RWD platform - one sporty and performance oriented and one more of a TC replacement. That would fill out the passenger car lineup nicely.
The point was whether Lincoln can be successful over the next few years with more luxury oriented vehicles like the MKS and MKT until the new GRWD platform arrives - and I think the answer is absolutely because the vast majority of the car buying public who would consider a Lincoln is looking for luxury as opposed to the few enthusiasts looking for luxury and performance.
It's a lot easier to get a Lexus owner to look at a MKS than it was to get a BMW owner to look at the LS.
I think long term we'll see more performance luxury vehicles but right now the AWD 340 hp MKS is the best they can do.
Yep exactly - I said above, there's nothing inherently wrong with Lincoln focusing on "soft" luxury instead of "performance". Not everyone wants a "performance" car...
Personally, I dont think the MK T will ever be built - at least not looking like this concept does. However, if I'm wrong and they do build the bustle-back CUV, people mover, sedan type thing whatever u want to call it. If they do build that monstrousity, then they are just setting themselves up to be laughed out of Dearborn. It's just ridiculous. Remember the Aztec, it's a lot like that. And the Blackwood, Lincoln can afford another flop like that?. I just have to sit here in utter amazement that they'd want to build a thing like that with all the other concepts we waltched them toss out the window. Just crazy. I think Lincoln needs to institute random drug testing.
The Blackwood was an attractive pickup. It would have sold fine, if they had offered: an open bed option, a rear bench seat optiion, and most of all, a 4WD or AWD option. That they couldn't figure this out, nor do so in time to save the thing, was totally inept. Then they compound the error by slapping a Lincoln name on an F150. Hopefully, they are done with that level of stupidity.
The MKT is bold, it turns some people off totally (like you), and that's what Lincoln needs now. Even if it flops--and I'll bet you big time it won't if they retain most of the concept's looks--at least they are back on the track of innovation and creativity, rather than just trying to provide adequate models to cover the market.
While I agree it was an error from a strategic product perspective, I think it was done as a quick, easy way to give the Lincoln dealers a product to move when the Lincoln/Mercury product lineup was extremely thin. So from that perspective it served its purpose.
The 09 F150 will have a Platinum edition which will be even nicer than the Mark LT. And Lincoln has the MKX and MKS so the Mark LT isn't really needed anymore.
Lincoln gets the funds to produce a top-notch product
They stay focused on the design effort, the "language and message" if you will, from initial concept to design freeze
They stay committed to the job, start to finish, as well as after during the later-on updates, freshening , mid-model design improvements - whatever the buzz-word(s) will be at the time.
Continue with new products that are for the intended markets, as well as those they can tap.
Finally not starved of product, money, updates (in other words - don't let history repeat itself)
One thing I don't understand is - you hear lots of complaints about the Blackwood not being a 'real' truck - (no bed, no payload, no 4WD, etc...)..... So, what's wrong with a Lincoln grille on a "real" truck? Wasn't the original Blackwood basically an F-150 with a Lincoln grille, minus the real pickup bed?
I wish they had an AWD 340HP MKS "right now." Allen, have you heard of a launch date more specific than "summer 2008" for the base MKS? Also, they have said the Ecoboost should arrive "less than a year after MKS launch." Have you heard anything more precise?
The Mark LT initially WAS an F150 with an ersatz Lincoln grill put in the F150 grill opening. Extra tail light trim was added to the tailgate. It was so blatantly an F150 that it had little reason to live.
Nope. Last I heard was early April for Job 1 on the MKS, in dealers starting in May. Unless I'm getting that confused with the Flex schedule which is similar. No actual dates on the EcoBoost.
I think Ford is trying very, very hard to pull these projects up and get them out the door sooner (the 2010 Fusion debut was supposed to be next Spring but got pulled up to December). They just have to make sure they don't cut corners and have quality issues.
The exterior changes were fine, but they didn't even bother to change the interior at all. In fact the King Ranch F150 was nicer than the Mark LT in some areas.
Still, I think it was fine for what it was intended to be.
In your opinion the exterior changes might have been "fine," but to most of the market, they weren't changes. They were very minor trim variations that could have easily been added to the F150, and no one would have seen it as anything other than an F150. The 09 Platinum edition F150 looks more different from the F150 than the Mark LT ever did.