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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Was the LS a pure Lincoln or was it based on a Jaguar platform?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It was on a platform jointly developed with Jaguar. You said all Lincolns are based on a Ford platform. Not quite true.

    The writing is on the wall. Mulally is moving Ford upmarket (like the new Taurus) and will be moving Lincoln upmarket as well - once they're back in the black and have taken care of the immediate business needs (Fiesta, Explorer, new Focus, etc.). They won't be in the Bentley class but expect some higher end RWD luxury platforms down the road. GRWD was the first step but funds had to be diverted. That doesn't mean the idea is dead and gone.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    Where do you get your info about rwd? Right now there is a better chance of discontinuing the Lincoln brand then there is of a future rwd car. The sales of the Lincoln products across the board is very bleak. It's the same with other brands. But could Ford continue to produce a brand that at best in good conditions sells about 70 thousand vehicles? Some of the deals that I am making to move the MKS' are up to 7000 k off list depending on the retail price along with incentives from Ford. I am sure that others are making the same deals along with other incentives. Even with these incentives only 1760 MKS' were moved last month. Ford had a break even point of about 25 thousand MKS sold vehicles for the first year and that didn't take account of present conditions. There is no way that a profit could be produced from the present deals that are offered to move product. The upscale price increases on the MKS are due to mainly making more items as standard. It would only mean that a bigger discount off price would be offered if the present conditions continue.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Mulally said publicly that Lincoln would be going RWD and that was the global RWD program where North America and Australia would share platforms. This is right in line with the global platform sharing mantra and makes perfect sense since both markets can support RWD car platforms. He also said Lincoln would be the volume brand, not Mercury.

    What happened was simple - with the economy and gas prices Ford had to reprioritize platform development and the Fiesta and other European small cars and smaller, more fuel efficient powertrains have a much bigger payback and better business case than larger luxury and/or performance sedans.

    Mulally is still commited to pushing Lincoln higher (should be obvious based on what they did with the Taurus) and to use RWD platforms - they just don't have the money to do it right now. Ford has to be fixed first, then Lincoln, then Mercury. If they get the first 2 right then they may not need Mercury or they can make it a specialized brand without worrying about giving L/M dealers volume.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "It would only mean that a bigger discount off price would be offered if the present conditions continue"...or, if one waits until one year old cars are traded in, we might get half off MSRP with the probably massive depreciation...
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    I really believe that Ford would never produce a pure Lincoln. One that is not based on an underlying Ford platform.

    That tired tune again. So Lincoln is based on a Ford platform. Acuras are based on Honda platforms (heck, the TSX is, or at least used to be, an overseas Honda Accord). Lexuses are based on Toyota platforms. Infinities are based on Nissan platforms. I've seen Lexuses with obvious Toyota switchgear and Acuras with obvious Honda switchgear. I’d bet Audi and Volkswagon share lots, too. Sit in one, then the other, and you can certainly tell they share the same DNA. Everybody does it, it’s just that some have done it better than Ford/Lincoln: less obviously, with unique sheetmetal and interiors. Lincoln is getting less obvious about it now, too.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    .
    Why waist your money on a upscale Ford? Acura was to have the next gen RL based on the new NSX chassis. Even Acura realized that a genuine prestige brand needs a high end rwd vehicle. One that is truly upscale. Now it's been cancelled because of the recession. I presume that Ford did the same because of similar reasons. I read the article where a Ford brass hat said that "Ford wants to focus on fuel economy using rwd funds for that purpose." A Lincoln should be large and with grandeur and superb in engineering using rwd as to match the true marks of automotive engineering. Two for examples are BMW and Mercedes. Mercedes and BMW have makes that are near Lincoln's price category. Are other less costly marks sharing the same platforms with BMW and Mercedes besides Chrysler which uses a donated second hand outdated Mercedes platform? If it's good enough for BMW and Mercedes it's good enough for Lincoln.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    A Lincoln should be large and with grandeur and superb in engineering using rwd as to match the true marks of automotive engineering.

    Ford had such a motorcar in the form of the Jaguar XJ8L, but they sold it to an Indian company.

    Ta ta!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ford had such a motorcar in the form of the Jaguar XJ8L, but they sold it to an Indian company.

    Yes, and JUST when I was about to buy one too.....now, I'm afraid to.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    It is a shame that Ford did that. But the question is now what about Lincoln? How to make a snob such as I am interested in buying one? I hope everyone forgives me for being one, but I 've been working since 15 years old to become one and I do so enjoy it now. I wrote about an American Bentley? A higher end Lincoln doesn't have to be in the Bentley's price range. It just has to have something that is not based on something that I could purchase at a Ford store. On Lincoln's lower end vehicles it may be OK to share underpinnings as long as those underpinnings are modified for the better for Lincoln. But on Lincoln's signature model there should be something more special about it. I put myself through college working as a parking attendant at a fancy restaurant. I would always seen patrons with higher priced foreign priced vehicles but the American car that always got my attention was the MarkV. Big and sloppy as it was. But I always wondered what it would be like to have a good looking American car such as that Lincoln along with the performance and engineering of the worlds best.
  • emrnibbles1emrnibbles1 Member Posts: 48
    With the Automotive sector of the economy as it presently is there will be a number of closed auto plants that would be put up for sale. Such an idea as a investment group purchasing one could be possible. Ford would just have to agree to sell Lincoln.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A Lincoln should be large and with grandeur and superb in engineering using rwd as to match the true marks of automotive engineering.

    LIKE THIS!!!

    image
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Keep dreaming...they are gone forever...
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I do not condemn your self-proclaimed snobbery - rather admire it because of the achievement. I too admired the Mark V, and I don't think it's yet impossible that such a flagship for Lincoln may appear someday. I think Mullaly is going to pull Ford out of her ditch - and she will look much different that she does today, but she'll be well respected. Not the largest, but with Toyota like reputation. Now, the difference is, will it last beyond the next CEO, which has always been Ford's downfall. No consistency. Cadillac came back from behind to be well respected with really, a pretty dismal lineup if you ask me. They are good cars, but they are small, fairly unimpressive, but fast little cars. It worked. Lincoln can do it too, although I hope they offer a more diversified lineup that Cadillac does. Something larger, but just as competent as their smaller car. And, sigh... I hope they drop the MK designation...... I understand what they were trying to do there, but it doesn't work for me.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    And, sigh... I hope they drop the MK designation......

    Oh, I wish they would drop that, too, and return to names.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Fear not Friend. You can still buy an Indian Jag without the RED dot in the middle of the grill! ;)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Naw, the shine is off the apple now with the company being owned by TATA. Driving a British Ford was one thing - driving a British TATA leaves me quite less fulfilled......
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    But if you buy a 2007 or earlier, you ARE buying a British Ford...if you don't mind pre-owned...
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    "buy a 2007 or earlier"

    Only on the Right coast and SE have I seen low mileage Radiance 2005 XJ8L's for sale at excellent prices. Now, if one were to pop up in the great NW, I'd be tempted to at least visit it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Is Radiance some kind of red?

    A friend of mine looked at an 05 LWB, loaded, they wanted something like 23K. With the good record the modern Jags have been receiving, seems like a ton of car for the money.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Yes, a dark Red metallic. The interior is usually Champagne or off White. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Light interiors are nice...I wish the Germans had embraced them earlier.

    If I was going after a XJ I'd hunt down a Super, they all depreciate so hard, might as well go over the top.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Agree with you, but Super Radiance low miler L's are rather rare out there.
  • alman08alman08 Member Posts: 282
    what's wrong with Tata motor? Tata Corp sure is more successful than any one of the big 3s here in the USA, and probably better than many corps here in the USA.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    What progress or innovation has Tata given to the motor industry? I define success by those as well.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I will go one step further...who exactly is Tata Motors???...I confess I never heard of them until "someone is buying Jaguar"...maybe I live under a rock, but just who are they???

    And, regardless of who they are, they bought Jag AFTER Ford put all that $$$ into them to upgrade them, so, unless they totally screw up everything, looks like they bought a nicely improved turn-key operation, with Jag at the top of JD Power...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Tata is India's largest business conglomerate, a significant force in many diverse industries in that region. IIRC, the CEO of the company is always family too, which can be a positive or a negative...I don't embrace the inheritance aspect of old cultures, myself. Nepotism and cronyism are the most destructive barriers to any kind of progress.

    I agree about the Jag sentiment...buying a house after it has been renovated doesn't mean you get to take credit for the work. When upgrades can be shown to have been undertaken during Tata's stewardship, then I will give credit.

    And I have to add, it still cracks me up to see the British motor industry now controlled by Germans, Indians, and a Russian. The sun has set.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Always family but the tradition is that the CEO doesn't marry and appoints his successor when it's time to step down.

    I think the Fords marry as they please.
  • alman08alman08 Member Posts: 282
    exactly what I thought... what you don't know doesn't mean what don't exist.
    all you need to know by now is that they have the $ to buy both jag and land rover.
    at the very least you should know that "google" is right on top of your screen on that thingy called the tool bar... simply type in "tata motor", "tata corp" and perhaps you can learn something new...
  • alman08alman08 Member Posts: 282
    You don't need to embrace anything about whatever old culture in regards to Tata. Just know that at the present moment they have the $$$ and power to buy both Jag and Land Rover.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Ford needs to take Lincoln hard and fast into the BMW/Lexus/Mercedes realm. Drop Mercury and take these funds and funnel them into Lincoln. Build 3 or 4 all new luxo models for Lincoln. First a small SUV, a BMW 3 fighter, a Mercedes 5 series fighter, then a luxo cross over of sorts. Bring Lincoln back into the great car company it once was. No more re-badged Fords!!!! Show the world Americans can build luxo cars that can compete and beat the best of Europe or Japan. Its time Ford.. are you listening???
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    They have the power and money to buy Ford's second hand goods. Still not a true contributor to automobiledom....and still not worthy of my admiration in terms of cars. An impressive multinational conglomeration, but not a contributor to automotive progress...not yet anyway, and I won't hold my breath ;)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford needs to take Lincoln hard and fast into the BMW/Lexus/Mercedes realm.

    Even if they wanted to do that, where are they supposed to get the money for these all new luxo platforms?

    There is nothing wrong with global platform sharing if it's the right platform. And that doesn't mean re-badging. The MKS is NOT a rebadged Ford - it just shares the same platform with the Taurus and there is only so much that can be done with that platform. It's not the ideal platform for Lincoln but it's all they have right now and it's definitely not a rebadge.

    Ford has to solidify the Ford brand first - that should be done in another year or so with the Fiesta, new Focus and new Explorer. Then they can put more money into Lincoln. But it has to be done logically over time and with a good business case. The last thing Ford can afford right now is to lose money chasing prestige.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    I seriously considered an MKS, but too many questions re: quality and too many Taurus parts right now. I want a Lincoln that is a Lincoln.
    Ford needs to develop a stand alone RWD platform for Lincoln and then equip it comparably to Lexus LS 460, Hyundai Genesis, Acura RL and Infiniti M. Give it the LS 460 ride that many Americans want in their American luxury cars.
    Next Ford needs to cancel Mercury as a brand. Not since it was created in the 30's has it ever been more than a high priced Ford, which was ol' Henry's intention in the first place. In the 50's/60's, it did have different bodies and more Lincoln parts, but now it is a rebadged Ford.
    At the same time, combine all dealerships into Ford-Lincoln and NO Lincoln Trucks, Mega SUV's, etc. Focus on luxury and prestige for Lincoln.
    Oh, and get rid of the too similar make names. Nobody I know knows the difference between MKS, MKZ, MKK, MK Mouse, etc.
  • That may be true regarding Tata succession, but it is also true that Ratan Tata is gay and coupled, and AFAIK, India still does not allow gay marriage. BTW, Tata is now truly a company to watch as India more and more enters the world stage. And I would not hesitate to buy a Jaguar. The quality of the XJ sedan is impeccable.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    What are the differences that seperate the MKS from the Taurus besides body style and interior? It can't be options or standard equipment. The items that are standard or optional on the MKS could also be offered on the Taurus.
  • speculatorspeculator Member Posts: 116
    I read in the business section of the Chgo Tribune that TaTa may be trying to sell Jaguar and Land Rover. Ford should have sold Volvo to BMW when it had the chance about a year ago for about 6 billion dollars. The rumours were at the time that BMW wanted to convert Volvo back to rwd and didn't want Ford to use present Volvo technology and platforms without a license agreement That's what spoiled the deal. Ford sold the wrong company. Jaguar went for about 800 million. A pittance compared to the BMW offer for Volvo.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    FWIW, I happen to check the Tata website at the reco of another poster, and they no longer show an XJ sedan under the Jaguar portion of the site...have they given up the XJ8 and XJ8L???
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...Lincoln has to dump the meaningless alphabet soup names! MKZ? MKX? MKS? What the heck is that? Bring back names like Continental, Mark III, Town Car, Zephyr, Cosmopolitan, etc. Lincoln should not aspire to be BMW. People who buy Lincolns don't want BMWs. This is a Lincoln:

    image

    or even this!

    image

    I will take either of these over the stubby MKS or some stupid crossover or a Mazda 6 with a cheap hood prop rod masquerading as a Lincoln!

    Lincolns are supposed to be big, massive, stately, opulent, elegant, powerful, intimidating-looking cars that say "Get out of my way!" Not this crop of almost apologetic looking junk!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I had a hatch hit my head one time because one of the hydraulic cylinders lost its gas and failed.

    I feel a bit safer checking my oil with a rod or prop holding the hood up. :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah! Whatever happened to a properly counterbalanced hood with good old-fashioned spring-loaded hinges? Cheap beancounters! Hope they all get buried in cardboard caskets and dumped into mass pauper's graves!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Those things outweighed props by a factor of 88. :)

    There's nothing wrong with a simple solution, especially concerning part of the car you don't access all that often.

    When I destroyed the trunk "torsion bar" thingamajigs in my old Tercel, a broomstick substituted nicely.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    The counterbalance-spring method is still used by MB I think...that's what all of mine have had. On the fintail it makes a satisfying quiet creak when you open it. Old tech is the most elegant solution for this issue.

    I noticed the used Camry my mother is looking at has a hydraulic prop, her Tauri have had these too I think.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There's nothing wrong with a simple solution, especially concerning part of the car you don't access all that often.

    That's what I keep telling these guys, but some people just have a fixation on the prop rod and will complain about it to end, regardless of how well the rest of the car is designed.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What are the differences that seperate the MKS from the Taurus besides body style and interior?

    Base engine (3.5L vs. 3.7L), some options (auto cruise control and auto parallel parking - I think, THX stereo), better interior materials, sound deadening, etc.

    The Taurus was developed 100% under the new mgt regime (in only 2 years I might add) and represents a new strategy for Ford. The Taurus has features that you would have only seen on a Lincoln just a couple of years ago. Look for the MKS to also move more upmarket - but they can't do much more with the drivetrain on the current platform other than to give the base 3.7L direct injection and 300 hp.

    The point was that the MKS was not a rebadge job. It has 100% unique sheetmetal (as does the Taurus) and a different interior, suspension tuning, etc. The Fusion and Milan are definite rebadges. The Fusion and MKZ are in between - they still share drivetrains and some sheet metal (doors, roof) but not interiors or front and rear clips.
  • Yes, a re-badge is just that. Slap on a badge and a few detail differences. There have been extreme examples of it, like the Plymouth Neon and Dodge Neon. However, companies often over the past few decades have rebadged by doing a different front clip or at least the grill (that's all the Mark LT initially received for differentiation in front), different tail lights and varying the interior trim slightly.

    It is a continuum of course, when the basis is the same platform, but I don't think anyone calls the Edge a rebadge of the Fusion or Mazda6. I don't think most people would call the Flex a rebadge of the Taurus or the Taurus X.

    VW gets a lot of mileage out of the same platform (e.g,, Golf, Jetta, Beetle, TT, A3, various Skodas and SEATs). Taurus and MKS are at least as different as the VW Golf and Audi A3.

    Let's give Ford credit for going the differentiation distance on this one, rather than saying, like they used to "who will notice if we re-use the same fenders and doors?" The other factor is that Taurus has definitely moved upmarket from the 2000-06 models. It competes more with Avalon than Camry. It is like when VW included upmarket Audi components on VWs. It did not cheapen Audis so much as give VW sedans the reputation of having some of the nicest trimmed interiors on the market.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    There's nothing wrong with a simple solution, especially concerning part of the car you don't access all that often.

    Good point. While they are at it, they could use a piece of wire to hold up the exhaust system. You don't look under the car much and that would be simpler than the hangers they currently use. ;)
  • Good one!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    combine all dealerships into Ford-Lincoln and NO Lincoln Trucks, Mega SUV's, etc. Focus on luxury and prestige for Lincoln.

    So does that mean the Lexus LX-470, GX-470 and the Mercedes GL450 must go also? If they can produce them, why shouldn't Lincoln, since they virtually created the genre anyway with the Navigator??
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