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Comments
Lincolns are being discounted by the dealers (even if Ford is not putting cash on the hood) and still sales fall. If Ford intended for Lincoln to have low volume, high profit sales at this point, fine. But I don't think the plan was for Lincoln sales to fall from (already shrunk) 2010 to 2011. You can throw your little bombs at Gm (and after all, they asked for it), but incentives or not, they are now making a big profit. Having a much bigger presence (and reputation) in the world's largest car market (China) doesn't hurt their bottom line.
You are right that people will take notice if a truly outstanding vehicle does come along. But no one is standing still. The plebeian rides and brands are beginning to rival the luxury marques. It is cut-throat out there. Cadillac, Chrysler, BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Hyundai (gulp!..how did that brand get in here??) are not standing still, or delaying improvements.
Ford is sort of like Honda once was. Honda in the recent past was on top of the world. It ain't anymore. The products don't appeal nearly as much, and the attempts to remake Acura's early success have not been successful. The 2012 Civic, one of their biggest successes, looks to be a dud. Ford isn't producing duds yet, and willing, they won't start. But Lincolns are also-rans. Every model Lincoln has right now is not bad. None rise anywhere near the top.
I would buy a Lincoln because I have a soft spot for a brand that produced in their times the '61 Continental, the Mark III, the 1990 Town Car, the Mark VII, the LS... But I am an old guy (though cool and flexible ), and guys like me are dying off. I don't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] where the new 85 guys came from who are going to turn this brand around, and not make it another quasi-Acura. I want to see results. Mulally has been in there for many years now. He has made himself a fortune for a small country. Ford is practically down to one brand remaining. It is working now. I hope it works in cut-throat 2013.
It's perfectly fair to criticize Lincolns current performance but it's not relevant. If they're still languishing in 3 years then that will be a concern.
And the current MKZ has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the new one. Those who've seen it say it looks like an Aston Martin.
You guys just need a little patience. Lincoln only started the rebuilding process last year so you can focus on the current situation as much as you want but I still say it's irrelevant. Wait and see what they have in 2-3 years.
Isn't that pretty much what you were saying three years ago? If I had even less of a life than I do, I'd go back and look, then post the appropriate quotes, but. . .
Either way, given enough 3-year chunks of time, many of us will have lost interest. . .or be dead.
Even though I am a Ford guy, I believe in giving credit where credit is due. A bird in hand is always worth more than two in the bush, so while I hope that what Lincoln has in the pipeline has wow factor, it is not very meaningful until put up against the competition's proposed new models three or four years from now.
Ford just hired a team of 85 people dedicated to overseeing various pieces of the Lincoln turnaround plan. Half of them came from other luxury brands like Lexus and Audi. When has Ford done that before? They killed Mercury to focus everything on Lincoln. When did they do that before? They're requiring Lincoln dealers to provide better service and upgrade their showrooms to the tune of $1M or more. When did they do that before?
You're looking at current products only. I'm looking at the execution of a business plan which takes time but to me it looks like they're doing all the right things AT THIS STAGE.
It still remains to be seen how they execute on the products themselves but when insiders talk about global RWD platforms and designs that look like Aston Martins and unique features like electronically controlled suspensions - it gives me a lot of hope.
My issue with GM isn't so much the products - although some things like the camaro interior just make you scratch your head - it's the total lack of leadership and a sound business plan.
How does it possibly make sense to sell 3 different versions of essentially the same vehicle (Traverse/Acadia/Enclave) plus a new 4th version for Caddy? Meanwhile Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and VW do it with only 2 versions - high end and low end.
You're looking at it from a consumer standpoint. I'm looking at it from a business standpoint and they're still a mess. Better than before, but not as good as they need to be. They're still trying to win market share at the expense of profit - which is what got Ford, GM and Chrysler into this mess to begin with. Ford learned. Chrysler seems to have gotten the message. GM only went halfway. The fact that they can't keep a CEO should tell you something.
I've seen the spy photos of the new MKZ. IMHO, it looks sort of Audi-esque in a Lincoln new-grill sort of way. It will be pretty and may sell better than the current forgotten MKZ. That of course remains to be seen. Audi, btw, has offered an electronically controlled suspension for years. Not that it has gotten any good press, and apparently wouldn't deserve it anyway. As for Lincoln, how about a fine looking car that has better power, mpg, quiet and handling than the direct competition? Build it, I say.
I am reminded of the trouble Suzuki has encountered here (they go like gangbusters in Asia). Kizashi came along and is one of the best mid-sizers to appear in 2010, but it is apparently too little too late. Sales are in the toilet.
So I will cheer this crack Lincoln team on too, and hope they have the cojones to take some real risks (no focus group crap). But please lay off on the negative lobs toward GM. It is just sour grapes, as this screwed up company is issuing a lot of good stuff now. Ford needs to have some strong domestic competition. Four divisions are working for GM now. One division is working for Ford. With luck and a lot of skill on the part of the team you describe, maybe two will.
Hyundai and VW both proved you can't sell $15K cars and $50K cars under the same brand. You need 2 brands as evidenced by almost every other major full-line car mfr. GM should kill Buick and GMC and compete with Chevy and Cadillac. It would drastically lower their cost structure.
You're the one who complained the loudest about the MKZ, MKX and MKS being too close to the Fusion, Edge and Taurus respectively and I agree with you regarding the current models. But Lincoln is fixing that by giving all Lincolns totally unique styling, sheet metal, interiors, features and drivetrains. They won't share anything with Fords except things you can't see.
In other words - Lincoln is attempting to do everything you've said they should do. So I don't understand why you're so skeptical about Ford and why you're so adamant about defending GM. The numbers (sales, incentive spending, profits, inventory days, etc.) don't lie.
As for the Camaro - it's barely outselling the mustang now. If GM has higher incentives then that certainly plays a part. But let's compare total sales over the last decade.......
Just like Alfred Sloan's model became obsolete when the Impala broke the $20K mark, because you could buy a discounted Olds 98 decked out for less money than a decked out Impala...once that happened, you knew that the 5 step models of Sloan (Chevy-Pont-Buick-Olds-Caddy) were doomed, because the Impala often cost more than the "prestige car"...
Maybe Ford and Lincoln makes more sense (Chevy-Caddy, anybody?) as long as there is a discernible difference to make the Lincoln REALLY worth more, other than pinstriping and wire wheels...
None of that changes my first love: Ford. And I have certainly been giving Ford credit. After all, Ford right now can sell more vehicles with ONE division, rather than three...the sales don't lie. My point is that nothing much would change if Lincoln ceased to exist right now. It would be great if Lincoln could rise again, and in the future, Ford may need Lincoln in order to sustain growth.
But to your perennial grip I say: Two divisions can work. Four divisions can work. I won't repeat examples, as you probably won't accept them anyway. OK, just one: right now, VW is knocking at the door of becoming the world's biggest automaker. Their profits worldwide are pretty decent too. And all those "extra" divisions are not just uber luxury brands like Porsche, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Bentley, but also more mainstream brands like VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT, and to a small extent Suzuki (a very successful brand everywhere but the US).
Your suggestion that GM kill Buick makes no sense. The division is growing like gangbusters right now. Setting aside sales here, it is one of the most respected and successful brands in the world's largest car market (China) where it is perceived on a par with Audi. Meanwhile, Cadillac is making similar sales numbers here, and absolutely trouncing Lincoln. GMC does reach a different (and growing) customer base than Chevrolet (a friend just bought one and she loves it...she wouldn't consider the Chevy version, even if that makes no sense to you and me).
AGAIN, this company is recovering from a well-deserved fall that went far lower than Ford ever did. And here they are already, making money! Sure Ford makes a whole lot more right now, and hell yes, that is a good thing. But GM must make its own way, not follow a long-time competitor's plan.
All I have said, again and again, is stop the heck dissing GM just because they have four brands. I just don't get it. You keep trying to put Ford logic on another company, and meanwhile, GM is already doing ok in a very highly competitive, over-saturated (with brands, capacity, models, choices...mostly all good ones now). It will be a long time before sales return to pre-recession levels, if ever. Meanwhile, the vagaries of the market are going to kill good vehicles that from a quality standpoint probably deserve to live.
Oh, and the Camaro is "just barely outselling" Mustang. Well, my dear, that says means Camaro is doing ok. And it is NOT loaded up with incentives. Mustang has always been the king of this market (the Mustang II excepted), and always was the one to beat. Camaro is presently heavier, does not handle as well, and some think the interior doesn't measure up. But they do have the styling down, and in the ponycar market, styling can still rule. If Ford had not had the good sense to put both a new V6 and V8 into the Mustang at the same time, it would not be close to nipping at Camaro's heels. I got to give both credit for the good sales they have. But apparently, you don't.
But I don't understand how you can possibly defend GMC. Every vehicle is a clone of a Chevy with NO distinguishing features. Explain that one.
There wouldn't be such a proliferation of brands worldwide (in clothes, food products, most everything) if people weren't so brand conscious--and in the case of more expensive products, brand snobs. For GM to squander built-in perceptions on the hope that than the expense of converting GMCs back to Chevrolets (no small cost to manufacturer and dealers) added to the costs of re-educating people that a Chevy can get them the same things, coupled with the very real risk that these customers may be lost forever to other brands instead...well, it seems to me that is taking a risk that may not be justified at present.
Ford on the other hand had very little to lose by the time Mercury was euthanized. Old guys buying the big Mercury rather than the Ford was a dying proposition, and all other "signs of the cat" had long since faded in people's memories. What GMC still has to some extent is what Lincoln needs to rebuild: a sense among the buying public, real or imagined, that a Lincoln is a finer thing than an equivalent Ford.
I think they're only keeping GMC to keep the dealers alive, which is the same reason Ford kept Mercury for so long.
We'll just have to disagree on this one for a couple of years and then we can compare both companies and see which one worked better.
It's not that Ford is doing something new and wonderful - they're just doing what all the other successful brands have been doing. And that's what I'd like to see GM doing.
GM may win the market share award but it will do so with much lower profit due to overproducing, fleet dumping and big incentives. Meanwhile Ford is using fewer global platforms to control costs and lowering volume to match market demands which keeps resale value high and incentives low (and profits high).
The Cruze and Focus are great examples of each company's philosphy. GM is still clinging to the past and only changing enough to get by. Ford did a complete 180, bit the bullet and made drastic changes and now it's paying off.
I don't know if Lincoln will outsell Cadillac in 3 years but they'll definitely be more profitable unless GM makes major changes.
Look - I agree the current Lincolns aren't great, but compare them to where Lincoln was in 2004 with just the TC and LS sedans. The MKS has more power, more luxury features and a much better interior than either of them. The only place it comes up short is in handling vs. the LS. The MKZ, MKX and MKT didn't even exist. The Aviator looked nice but turned into a quality nightmare. And I owned both an Aviator and LS so I know what I'm talking about.
So even with Ford taking priority and Lincoln only getting "table scraps" for the last several years, they improved the lineup considerably. And now that they're finally investing in Lincoln I expect a major leap forward across the lineup again.
You won't see big sales numbers on the current vehicles because Ford is keeping prices high without big rebates. This appears to be a conscious business decision - probably to help close a lot of the marginal dealers. With Ford making $20B before debt payoff last year they really don't need Lincoln to be profitable right now.
Really! I was and am agreeing with you! I still have a very strong attachment to Lincoln. And I am hoping to see them recover their glory of the 60's, and 90's.
I've at least reached the point where I believe it when they say they have great plans to revive the brand. I'll just be a spectator but I'm looking forward to what they do.
Makes sense to just combine Ford and Lincoln, like having a Chevy and Cadillac dealer...
They have the right plan and they have the focus to implement it. How successful it will be remains to be seen and will depend on how quickly the dealers can be changed and how good the new vehicles are.
I've taken my LS there a few times, real nice people, competent mechanics, I'll miss the place when it inevitably shuts down or merges with the Ford dealer.