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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Oh, I believe you when you say Ford has some nice Lincoln stuff on the way. You're always pretty knowledgeable about them. But they need to get it moving and expedited. Its going to have to be some knock outs because Ford let Lincoln lie for way too long. Over time the glow of avoiding BK is going to fade. Lincoln also has to decide if its going to compete in the Buick or Cadillac market segment, or both. Still think letting the Town Car stop at the same time Mercury went away may not have been a good decision because that division needs cash to get things moving (and no, personally I'm not a TC fan).
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Dropping the Town Car was a ferocious mistake from my point of view.
    I wish what they did was kept the Town Car and modernized it along with the Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis. Ford had three cars on my car-shopping A-list, now it has none. There is not one car in Lincoln's lineup I would take over any of their foreign or domestic competition.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    But they need to get it moving and expedited

    I disagree. Ford is nicely profitable now with just the Ford brand. They could kill Lincoln and be just fine.

    What they need to do is take their time and do it the right way. And that's what they appear to be doing, starting with cleaning up the dealer network. They hired a team of 85 people just to oversee and manage this turnaround and they came from other luxury mfrs like Audi, Lexus, MB, etc.

    They seem to be purposely starving Lincoln to cull the herd before they start building up again.

    It does seem to be clear that while Lincoln will continue to use Ford platforms they will not be recognizable like some of the current efforts.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Most Panther buyers never bought new ones anyway - they wait and buy them used.

    Name ONE other mfr that still builds body on frame CARS, much less luxury brands. There is a reason for that.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Somebody has to buy them new. :)

    I dunno, GM seems to be making money from their revamping of Cadillac.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    They seem to be purposely starving Lincoln to cull the herd before they start building up again

    As long as they don't starve the dealer base out of business at the same time. Co-locating Lincoln and Ford would be a huge mistake and water down the Lincoln brand. further

    Ford is nicely profitable now with just the Ford brand. They could kill Lincoln and be just fine.

    Maybe, but those large luxury car profit margins generate some nice cash flow in an otherwise cutthroat business. Also, wealthy buyers are more likely to be there during significant economic downturns. Trucks have been a great ride, but if gas keeps going up that segment is going to loose a lot of its profitabililty and cash generation down the road.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Rental fleets...then sold to livery fleets and bargain hunter private buyers.

    Which body on frame Caddy passenger cars are leading them to success?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    From my link:

    "Lincoln sales advanced by less than 4 percent over the Great Recession year of 2009. That compared with a 35-percent gain by Cadillac and a 28-percent increase for Infiniti.

    there’s no denying that GM’s efforts to forge a new Cadillac largely have paid off."
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Certainly Caddy has seen a rebirth, but it's not from old timey cars like the TC.

    Without the CTS, and in cheaper gas times the Escalade, it wouldn't be happening. There's no big old BOF Fleetwood anymore.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The point is that GM made a go of it, and Ford likely has a luxury base that would still be attracted to Lincoln, if they don't starve the brand much longer.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Of course, there's a butt for every seat, but IMO Lincoln won't be able to compete in today's market with a BOF offering (or rebadged lesser cars and weird variants). Caddy made a go of it with some fresh material.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2011
    All the more reason to retire the Town Cars. Get some fresh stuff in the showrooms.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I agree. Sadly, there's no really fresh stuff in the showrooms.

    That crossover van thing they have has one of the most ungainly rear ends in the industry. That can't help.
  • The MKT's rear end is not what is holding back sales. It is because it looks like a station wagon. Wagons sell great in Europe, but most of the luxury wagons are no longer imported here, due to lack of interest.

    Americans for whatever reason want their CUVs to look more like SUVs than the traditional wagon. Never mind that they all ALL tall wagons! What does logic have to do with any of this? Perception is everything, and just as the Chrysler Pacifica, the Taurus X, the previous Cadillac SRX (they went for the CUV look this time around and sales have taken off), and even the Ford Flex looks more wagon-y than CUV-y...every one of these has suffered poor sales.

    The MKT also looks like a portly station wagon. Had they had the balls to introduce it in the controversial shape of the concept car that preceded it, the MKT may have had a chance at building a certain following. This was Lincoln's first clean sheet car under Mulally, and it turns out they would have been better off to just skip it, rather than issue such a watered down, slab sided design.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    At least it was available to take over for the Town Car livery buyers.

    I'm really anxious to see what the new designs look like. This will be the first time in decades that Ford has made a concerted effort to make Lincoln competitive without other things getting in the way (Mercury, Jaguar, etc.).
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    All the more reason to retire the Town Cars. Get some fresh stuff in the showrooms.

    I agree once new product is out. In the interim, since the tooling was paid for long ago, keeping the TC and its fleet business would have provided a nice, steady cash flow.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, the tooling was there, but they haven't been sharing parts with the Crown Vics since 2007 (or the Mercury Grand Marquis). And the 16 city/24 hwy wasn't helping them meet CAFE I suppose.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    STAP wasn't selling enough vehicles to pay for the entire plant, not to mention the cost to meet new gov't requirements.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There's no big old BOF Fleetwood anymore.

    If there was, I would have one and a new one would be at the pinnacle of my car shopping A-list! :shades:

    Still have my old BOF Cadillac and it's staying with me for a long, long time!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Wagons sell great in Europe, but most of the luxury wagons are no longer imported here, due to lack of interest.

    BMW has a very nice wagon, but what do we get? Ungainly monstrosities like the X3 and X5.

    image
  • Because "ungainly" sells here. As long as it doesn't look like a wagon. It truly is weird. The only company to go against that trend here is Subaru. The Tribeca has been re-styled to look like a mainstream CUV, but they struggle to move any of them, while the wagon-y looking Outback is selling like gangbusters. But Subaru has always been able to capitalize on a certain weird factor in a way that other companies cannot.

    But back to Lincoln...what is needed are pretty and very distinctive designs, not cautious elements of Japanese and German mid-luxury design language as contained in the MKS. If they introduce just one model with some wow factor (no Lincoln today has any), sales will begin to stabilize and turn around.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I keep hearing Aston Martin when insiders describe the new MKZ, so I'm hopeful.

    Ford has given Lincoln designers the green light for 100% unique designs - they're allowed to change everything including the green house, glass and roof lines in addition to Lincoln unique features like retractable roofs.

    With PAG and Mercury gone the only question now is execution.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    That was my last rental car in Germany

    image

    Now I want to go back even more.

    The American market is so dumb...is anything more of a douchemobile than a X6?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited May 2011
    If they could somehow make it traditional yet modern, it might even sell. Same for any new TC. The previous one just got old - but not in a good way. Not much nostalgia out there for the style and substance of 1998. And the MKT...something about the rear of that thing is still really off-putting for me.
  • On the contrary, I like the rear end of the MKT. It is somewhat daring and controversial. It is good that some folks like yourself are turned off. Polarizing elements are good. They draw attention and that is one thing Lincoln needs. However, the existing back side is a watered down version of the concept. On the whole though, it is hard to ignore the looonnng, boring side profile that could have played up Lincoln design language more, but instead just added in a rather ungraceful hump near the rear door. And those rear doors--awful. They look like any run-of-the-mill station wagon doors.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'm aware of how obsolete the TC was because I drive it's poorer cousin the Mercury Grand Marquis. I had a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS back in the day and it seemed so plush I called it "the poor man's Town Car." By 2005, the Grand Marquis can best be described as a taxi with leather seats.
  • Yes, Ford did some really goofy things througout the late nineties, and early to mid aughts. Seems like they decided they could just update front and rear clips on old designs and reap profits. Then they started their "turnaround" with the Year of the Car--producing the forgettable Five Hundred and a redesigned Explorer that didn't seem all that different from the one introduced in 1990. Bill Ford wante to kill Lincoln, and almost did. Then Mulally came along. He has had to work with and improve upon a whole range of drek. And Ford has popped. All the other luxury brands are gone (though still living). Mercury is dead, and at this point, no one cares that it is gone.

    Lincoln is going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat. And Lincoln will be needed soon. Looking at VW for example...their two biggest brands here are VW and Audi. Although Audi sales have grown remarkably, they are held back by limited capacity. Audi sales are a small fraction of VW sales. But they don't need to use any incentives to move them, and consequently, Audi contributed just as much money to overall VW profits last year as VW did. The other interesting thing is that Audi buyers do not tend to see their cars as fancier VWs, and in fact often do not even know that VW owns Audi.

    So Ford will likely need Lincoln to keep pace long-term. But bringing this moribund brand back from the dead in the face of well-established brands like Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, even Jaguar now, not to mention Hyundai with new versions of Azera (Cadenza?), Genesis and Equus...and all expanding and updating their lines continuously...well, let's just say it won't be easy. Look at Volvo...they have a really good line-up now (and finances for new designs again), but building back is a real struggle for them.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    edited May 2011
    Ford did some really goofy things througout the late nineties, and early to mid aughts.

    Remember Lincoln had been trading the best selling luxury brand title with Cadillac back and forth until 1998? The best selling luxury cars were the Town Car and DTS. The market has changed dramatically since then and Lincoln did not change with it.

    But Lincoln did recognize the change and did one effort to lure the younger drivers with the 2000 Lincoln LS, a car with a lot of BMW influence in it. It won the Motor Trend Car of the Year in 2000, and was the top selling model in the first 2 years, before Ford abandoned it.

    Year BMW 5 M-B E Lexus GS Lincoln LS
    2000 39703 xxxxx 26705 51039
    2001 40005 44445 24461 57164
    2002 40842 42598 17246 39775
    2003 46964 55683 13306 33581
    2004 45584 58954 8262 27066
    2005 52722 50383 33457 19109
    2006 56756 50195 27390 8797

    This is a proof that if Lincoln can set their minds and resources to something new, they can make it happen.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2011
    However, even the LS--remarkable as it was in its time--was a flawed effort, as Allen has pointed out (and I believe he happily owned one). The architecture was too expensive to be profitable, and other Ford engines besides the the small Jaguar V8 did not fit. It shared some of its structure with the Jaguar S Type, a car that didn't take off for Jaguar. Of course it was the dismal failure of the Ford designed 2004 Jaguar XJ--a really good car in its time, but it looked too much like the previous generation, but perhaps not as graceful looking--that led to Ford to kick its multi-billion dollar loss to the curb.

    It would have been difficult to update the LS without starting anew, and by then there was no money to do so. It had all been spent paying way too much for unprofitable luxury brands and UAW contracts that put Ford at a further disadvantage to the domestic "foreign" brands now kicking its [non-permissible content removed]. That's why we got things like the Zephyr and Aviator. Unfortunately, those sorts of efforts are no longer worth the money put into them either.

    The sad part now is that it will be years before Lincoln turns over its current models to more competitive ones. I remember Audi rebuilt itself after disaster, but it took many years. Lincoln could do it too, but meanwhile too many former Lincoln buyers will have developed new allegiances by then. Or they will be dead.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Somebody has to buy them new.

    That's true, and they do. Hertz, Enterprise, Dollar, Thrifty, police departments, cities, counties, and Livery services buy the new....and the public buys them second hand. At half price, by the way. Nevertheless, I liked the Panther cars because they were tougher than rocks. You could drive a Town Car over a median, up a curb, and through a ditch, and never hurt it, not even knock it out of alignment. There isn't a tougher frame and platform in production without a truck on the top of it. They got actually good mileage, especially for their size, with excellent power, comfort, quiet and room. That's not all bad..... I admit their time is probably over, I guess it actually is, but I had great respect for them.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    And the MKT...something about the rear of that thing is still really off-putting for me.

    I agree, the MKT is "butt ugly"... :P

    Also, for the record, I HATE the MK soup names.... I hate them so badly, I have bought elsewhere even if I liked the new Lincoln. If anybody out there is listening, I've never met anybody who was warm to the MK names. Not that fond of the _TS names Cadillac uses either.
  • But at least the Caddy naming system makes sense: ATS, the (now defunct) BTS, CTS, DTS, soon to be discontinued STS, and XTS. Putting the identifying letter at the end as Lincoln does, along with having no discernible sequencing, makes it very difficult for any other than Lincoln aficionados (and there are damn few of them remaining) to remember which one is which. Still, actual names are better.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    True. As the owner of a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis, you can beat the heck out of them and they keep going and going and going. They're great cars for the city. Lincoln lost me forever as a potential customer when they got rid of the Town Car. Their puny truncated MKS with its lopped-off trunk and little V-6 is no match for the Town Car or any of it's foreign or domestic competition. I'll take a Chrysler 300-C before an MKS.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I hate the _TS names too. I'd have rather they named my car a Sedan DeVille or a Fleetwood versus DTS. I loved the old drawn out names like Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    As the owner of a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis, you can beat the heck out of them and they keep going and going and going.

    You do like those old style aircraft carriers, don't you Lemko! I don't blame you, I like big cars too, which is why I drove Caddys and Lincolns for decades. Then, they went the way of the environmentalists. I like the looks and interior of the MKS, not really fond of the 6 cylinder motor, but the turbo and the AWD take most of that annoyance away. My problem with the MKS is the PRICE for a 6 cylinder FWD car. Sheesh!! I think they are way overpriced for what you get.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    I don't recall your opinion of the Jag XJ8 L. Or does the Lexus fit you more comfortably?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That's one reason the Acura RL is off my list. It's just too much for a mere V-6.
  • xluxlu Member Posts: 457
    it will be years before Lincoln turns over its current models to more competitive ones

    It did not take very long for Ford to turn around its Ford lineup to be very competitive; Ford could do it to Lincoln if they decide to do so.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They decided last year. We won't see the results for another year or so.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I love the XJ8! Especially the way it drives. And now, the new one, OMG, it's the finest looking car on earth, to me anyway!

    Why don't I own one? I considered it not too long ago. I liked that Ford had fixed the cars to a great degree, better more reliable engines and electronics. I loved the drive, liked the looks, although dated, it had pedigree. However, it's low and a little tight for me. It's hard to get out of because of my bum left knee. And, when it goes out of warranty and DOES need repair, it's a fortune. The Lexus drives like warm wallpaper paste, but it never breaks, and it's cavernous inside. Features are superior in the cabin. Now that TATA owns Jaguar, I'm a little skeptical of where they will go. At this time, they are still using the Ford designs I think, but that will go away, and I've seen the NANO. That worries me.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2011
    The Nano really is a perfect car for Indians right now. It is barebones to the max, so more of those billion people can actually afford 4-wheeled transportation. They are not hampered right now by our safety standards. They will get there some day of course, what with their economy growing so fast. But meanwhile, engineering a car that runs, and only costs $2500, was no small feat, so to speak.

    Tata is at least 16 companies, one of which is Tata Motors. Tata makes many other cars and trucks, besides the Nano, and you see them all over India. Tata has big plans for both Jaguar and Land Rover, and the money to bring new ideas to market.

    The LWB XJ is a roomy car, and not quite as low as Jaguars used to be. Their reliability is now on a par with many other good cars. Look for a certified car...they will begin showing up here and there. Probably long before Lincoln offers anything that will interest you.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    As of the redesign of the XJ8 in 2004, the roofline was raised 5 full inches (same height as my Crown Vic)...my buddy had a 2002 XJ8 and even little me had to duck to get in w/o hitting my head...
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    I agree with your post. Living in an area where the nearest dealer and/or independent Jag technician is over 50 miles away keeps my finger off the trigger.

    IMO Ford should have kept the Jag & trained all their dealerships to deal with them. When there is only one Jag retailer in the whole state of OR, there is no competition when shopping for one. :mad:
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Read a couple of articles this weekend on the "new" Lincoln. There will be a bunch of new model releases over the next few years. Basically, it seems Ford is going to rely on technology to differentiate the new models. It also appears Lincoln's will continue being based on Ford's. While Caddy developed some unique applications, industry rumor is they are going to revert Caddy to platform sharing down the road too in order to conserve cash and reduce expenses. Personally, don't really know about that. Bottom line to me is that Lincoln will really kind of become an upper end Mercury line competing with Buick. I remember studying a case on the Edsel in B school many years ago. One of its downfalls was that it was going to be a technology line except two things: 1) much of it on the '58 like electronic touch tranny were somewhat problematic and 2) the tech image advertised really didn't meet up to customer expectations when the model was released. I hope Ford doesn't repeat. Personally, I'm a bit leery of this approach. Too many midsize cars already offer a lot of tech and upscale options. This is why so many of those old midline marquees like Oldsmobile have vanished. I think they need a standout top line vehicle to draw higher price customers. Even if the customer ends up buying a lower priced model, a sharp top line vehicle can add to a vehicle line's image and reputation drawing customers into the dealerships. Caddy is doing that with the upcoming XTS I believe.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Everybody says this - you need a high end - usually RWD high performance - model to be successful, yet if you look at Caddy and Lexus the highest volume units are the smaller, less expensive models like the SRX, RX and ES.

    It's not just electronic technologies - it's ecoboost engines, fully controllable suspensions, full retractable glass roofs, top of the line materials.

    Ford can't afford to give Lincoln expensive bespoke platforms right now. Maybe after they're successful and Ford has paid off all of the debt they can afford that. Until then they'll do just fine as long as they build great looking vehicles.

    I've heard the new MKZ looks like an Aston Martin. I'd say that's a great first step.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    "Basically, it seems Ford is going to rely on technology to differentiate the new models."

    Not to be a "negative Nellie" but will technology be enough if the cars don't look different???...give it all the high-tech on the planet and if it looks exactly like a competing Ford model and I think it would be doomed...too many buyers ain't "car folks" like us, and if it looks like the cheaper model, it IS the cheaper model, regardless of what is under the hood...
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I agree that the lower end of lux has better sales volume, but you've got to get 'em in the showroom door. If your info is right, maybe some great looking vehicle re-do's will do that. But that is a tough segment. Selling a MKS right now at $10K more than a LaCrosse has to be hurting the dealers. Lux buyers also like status. Even if you just buy a MB 300 series or a BMW 3 series, the company also has models that cost much more. Olds failed in the upscale, near lux biz despite a last ditch style effort by John Rock (e.g. Aurora). Buick hangs in there primarily because of Chinese sales (personally, I think GM just kept the US part to keep face with Asian market buyers since they have lower end Caddy's like CTS). Ford's biggest problem with Lincoln may end up being trying to keep their dealer network profitable and in business. Personally, I'd like to see Lincoln back in the game, but I think its going to be an uphill struggle with lux/near lux pricing but no high end status and prestige. I know Ford let Mercury die, but maybe they should have revamped it with sporty, import based models or something to keep some foot traffic and volume in the Lincoln dealerships?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Lincoln's got to make sure the tech is proven out as well. Synch problems have hurt Ford initial quality scores. Can't afford to repeat that with Lincoln buyers shelling out 10-20 grand more for a vehicle. BMW found that out the hard way a few years back...kind of put a crimp in their effort to pass M-B.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not to be a "negative Nellie" but will technology be enough if the cars don't look different???

    Good grief - have you not been paying attention? They won't look anything like a Ford - that part has been established for months now. Does a Flex look anything like an Explorer or a MKT? They all share platforms but they're entirely different.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Part of the revamp is fixing the dealers. My theory is they're keeping Lincoln prices high for now to help drive more dealers to consolidate or get out altogether. The ones that are left have to spend big bucks to upgrade the experience. And they have a team of 100 people dedicated to fixing Lincoln from the ground up - most of whom came from other luxury makes like Lexus.

    The plan is solid. They don't need Lincoln profits right now - they can afford to wait it out. If they deliver on the dealer upgrades, drop dead styling and luxury features then they'll be successful. We'll just have to wait and see.
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