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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    It will be interesting. I guess Infiniti is still in business and Acura hangs in there despite no real super status high end vehicle. Don't know if Nissan or Honda are subsidizing the dealers though.

    Personally, I've always found the high end car business interesting marketing stuff, but have never had the desire to shell out an extra 20K on a depreciating asset. The great part of all this competition today is that 25-30K can get you a pretty nice car leaving you a lot of change to spend elsewhere or invest. I think the midsize car is really the sweet spot right now and almost everything out there is nice - Fusion, Malibu, Camry. Altima, Sonata - you really can'tgo wrong.
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    akirby: Do keep in mind that it doesn't matter what I think, it is what the potential buyers think... ;)
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Do you think potential buyers (outside of enthusiasts) who look at the Flex, MKT and Explorer think they share anything? That's what you'll see with Lincoln because they're dedicated to 100% unique sheetmetal AND they have a dedicated Lincoln design group which they haven't had for decades.

    Today the Fusion/MKZ and Edge/MKX share doors and roofs and glass so from the side they look almost identical. That will not be the case going forward (finally) which should make Gregg happy (and everyone else).
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I hope you're right on this...
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    What makes me happy these days is a loaded 2011 Volvo S60 T6. This car was in process of being redesigned when Ford still owned Volvo and I must say, Ford did a great job with their input. 300 hp, 325 torque in-line 6, City Safety, self-adjusting cruise control, real time traffic information, blind spot warnings, excellent two tone leather seats, three 7" screens, real wood and real aluminum trim, torque-vectoring AWD...I could go on. It is quiet and I have been averaging 27 mpg. Lincoln needs a car to compete with this one.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    At least it can't be accused of being a rebadge. I expect the new MKZ to compete nicely but we'll just have to wait and see.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I believe the architecture is a distant cousin of that used for the Taurus and MKS (the current S60 being built on shortened S80 chassis). Of course the S60 is smaller and lower than the Ford products.

    I suspect as you do that the new MKZ will compete nicely, but meanwhile, the Volvo is already here, and a bargain for what you get. Funny, I never considered a Volvo and had set out to buy an Audi A4. However, none of the dealers could get me one equipped the way I wanted it, so for sh*ts and giggles, I went to look at the S60. Guess I must have been impressed. ;)
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    edited August 2011
    I suspect Volvo isn't on many shopping lists at all. They seem destined to stay a niche brand.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Yes, you are correct. Too bad. Automobile Magazine has been raving about their long-term S60.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Let me see, the Lincolns all share Ford platforms and yet they are entirely different. How can that be?
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Flex, MKT and Explorer share a platform - do they look anything alike?

    If you change every piece of sheetmetal including the glass, roof and doors, put in an entirely different interior with different materials plus unique drivetrains - what would you call it?
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Not entirely new if Lincoln shares Ford platforms.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    In all fairness, I believe most car companies share platforms. For example, I'm pretty sure the most popular selling lexus, ES and RX, are on the Toyota Camry platform.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Developing an all new platform for a relatively low volume luxury brand would be stupid at this point. Maybe once Lincoln is established and turning a big profit but not right now.

    Lexus' 2 best selling models share platforms with Toyotas. Same for Infiniti. But when they do it nobody seems to care. Talk about double standards.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    I read in Motor Trend that Mullaly may give the Lincoln brand the 86. Majority of dealers want Ford to drop the list prices on Lincolns between 5 and 10K. Mullaly just does not want to go the Cadillac route with Lincoln. The top people at Ford realize that Lincolns are inconsequential. Nobody would care if it goes under.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Lexus' 2 best selling models share platforms with Toyotas. Same for Infiniti. But when they do it nobody seems to care. Talk about double standards

    I think the problem is that the Lincoln's look too much like the Ford's inside and out. They are moving to 3.7 engine, now they need to better differentiate the interior and suspension, as well as the outside looks. Although I'm still not sure how a single line dealership selling Lincoln is going to survive? Tough enough for Caddy dealers. A lot of the German's like BMW share dealerships with other makes - sometimes a separate building, but shared real estate. Maybe Lincoln dealers will have to be part of Carmax, Autonation, etc. facilities.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    edited August 2011
    It doesn't matter. Lincoln is an old person's car. Most old folks are not interested in a CTS coupe and mostly those under 60 are not interested in an old folks' car. Lincoln is gone. It's kaput. Also Caddy is still out selling Lincoln and most of its model are priced higher than Lincoln.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The SRX is way cheaper than the MkX (it's also smaller). I should hope Lincoln doesn't go the Cadillac route. The CTS is the only thing Cadillac has done right and it cost them billions to get there.

    I believe Ford is purposely keeping the prices high on Lincoln right now and they don't care about sales volumes. They don't need to - Ford is delivering the profits now. When they come out with the new models they won't have to increase prices and suddenly everyone will be saying wow - this is a much better car for the same price as the old one!

    The jury is still out as to whether the public will buy the new vehicles but you certainly can't say Ford isn't making the effort. 7 new or totally upgraded vehicles. When has Lincoln ever had more than 4 or 5? They killed Mercury - it was a distraction. A dedicated team of 100 employees in charge of turning around Lincoln - most came from other luxury brands. Lincoln now has a dedicated design group - first time in decades. They've committed to 100% unique sheetmetal and unique luxury features like retractable glass roofs and electronically controlled suspensions. Ecoboost engines on all models with unique powertrains.

    What else could they possibly do right now?
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    How about making a better Lincoln than making it a better
    Ford?
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So you're a platform sharing snob who doesn't believe that you can build a luxury car from a shared platform. I guess nobody told Lexus.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Read every Auto enthusiast magazine and they all point out when a luxury mark shares a platform with one of its cheaper cousins. All of them seem to say that you can get the same car by buying its cheaper cousin. I remember reading Car and Driver and it informed that the Taurus has many of the bangs and whistles as the MKS but at a lower price. Also Lincoln wants to add more electric bangs and whistles to differentiate it from Ford. If you would have listened to Ray LaHood , Secretary of the DOT, has said on numerous interviews that he wants to limit the electronic gadgets that distract the attention of the car's driver. What would Lincoln do then if it can't have electronics denied to Ford to differentiate itself from Ford.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Taurus got Ford's best effort - the MKS hasn't seen Lincoln's best effort yet. In fact we haven't seen any of the new Lincoln styling or features yet.

    You're basing it on what Lincoln used to do and what they're planning is nothing like that and goes way beyond anything Ford has done with Lincoln in the last 40 years.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    True, Allen, the CTS is the best Cadillac. It comes in sedan, coupe and wagon versions, and one can get a V version (550 hp) if one wishes, in any one of them. The SRX, however, should not be dismissed. They got it right this time, and in 2012, they now have a competitive engine for it as well. It is selling neck and neck with the Lexus. The MKX did NOT come out right, and when they are comparably equipped, there is little actual difference in SRX and MKX prices. The SRX is a success. The MKX not so much.

    Lincoln's new models are coming, but Cadillac will have some out first. The ATS (rear drive) will compete with the BMW 1 and 3 series. The XTS will replace the DTS next year, and it seems to out-do the MKS in terms of styling and room. They will have at least as many new models as Lincoln either at the same time or before Lincoln's intros. I wish Lincoln well, but the company made so many bone-head decisions in the past 10 years trying several different ways to re-make Lincoln that there is a lot of damage done. To come back, Lincoln will not only have to steal sales from Cadillac, but also makes like Audi, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes...no easy task even with good product.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Styling is a subjective thing. I would sooner base my decision on purchasing a car based on what makes it a better engineered vehicle than a lesser price vehicle. That does not mean using a cheaper car's platform as a base and it certainly doesn't mean options or gizmos that will eventually become standard on cheaper cars.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    The XTS of Cadillac is based on the front wheel drive Epsilon Buick platform. Cadillac has again started its large rear wheel drive platform project.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The SRX is both smaller and cheaper than the MKX - that's why it sells. I agree it's a nice vehicle but it's based on a cheaper platform so according to edward53 it's not a true luxury vehicle.

    The current Ford mgt wasn't here 10 years ago so those decisions aren't applicable.

    But I might as well be talking to a brick wall. Guess we'll have to wait and see what the landscape looks like in 2-3 years. But I think Lincoln will surprise you and will challenge Lexus for the luxury sales lead.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Lincoln has an image of being expensive Fords. That image is why it will never be successful again. It does not matter what it does as long as all of its models are based on lower priced Ford platforms. Further it does not matter that lower end Lexus or Infinities are based on Toyota or Nissan. They don't have the image of being higher priced Toyotas or Nissans. The only way Lincoln can have a chance of survival is to have exclusive platforms That may be the only method to throw away Lincoln's more expensive Ford dilemma that Ford has put Lincoln in.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Most car buyers don't care or even know about platform sharing - what they care about is what the car looks like, feels like, features and how it drives.

    As long as they produce gorgeous sheetmetal that doesn't look like a Ford model, provide luxury caliber interiors with all the luxury features that luxury buyers expect and back it up with performance and/or fuel economy they will be successful.

    Are they going to beat BMW? Nobody is and Cadillac is foolish to keep trying, especially when they call every new car the [1/3/5] fighter.

    Here is what I expect for the new MKZ based on insider info:

    Sheet metal that looks more like Aston Martin than Ford/Lincoln
    Standard AWD w/300+ hp, possible 350-400 hp ecoboost 3.5L
    Upgraded high tech interiors with higher quality material
    Retractable glass roof, electronically adjustable suspension
    Plus the existing amenities and a totally new MyLincolnTouch

    Throw in a high mpg hybrid (even better than the current MKZ hybrid), standard maintenance and an upgraded dealership experience and it will be successful.

    And all for a fraction of the cost of the CTS. And don't forget all of the development can be shared with the European Mondeo as well as the cheaper Fusion.

    It's not the platform - it's what you do with it.

    There are also rumors of a RWD model possibly based on the Falcon but not sure about that one.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Oh, Allen, you simply will not give in when you get an idea in your head. You state:
    The SRX is both smaller and cheaper than the MKX - that's why it sells.

    Hogwash. The MKX is 186.7 inches long, the SRX is 190.3 inches long. The MKX has a wheelbase that is 0.7" longer, but that hardly makes it a bigger vehicle. MKX has 305 hp, and SRX has 308. They compete in the exact same class, along with the Lexus RX (in between MKX and SRX in length).

    The SRX does have a "strippo" model, that starts at around $36,000, but that is not the one that is selling. The comparable SRX, MKX and RX start at $39,715, $39,415 and $39,075. The RX still sells the best, but it is not because it is "smaller and cheaper." The are all essentially the same size and price (AWD versions too are within a few bucks of each other).

    As for "cheaper platform," the Cadillac does borrow from the Chevy Equinox, but not in the way that the MKX borrows from the Ford Edge. The Cadillac has a different (shorter actually) wheelbase than the Equinox and a whole different stance on its wheels. Cadillac did many things under the metal to make its own upgrades chassis (look it up). Nonetheless, I agree with you that it is not necessary for a luxury brand to have its own dedicated architecture, if the resulting product is distinct enough from its lesser brethren. However, it should be acknowledged that Cadillac has put more into differentiation of the SRX than most companies bother to do. It sells because it is priced with the market, it looks good and is equipped well, and it is a Cadillac, without so much damaged goods baggage.

    With Lincoln, we have always been waiting 2-3 years this past decade. I remember when you thought that the MKS was going to be a success, and when you pointed out that the MKT was the first "clean sheet" new Lincoln design.

    Don't get me wrong. I want Lincoln to succeed. I hated to see Mercury fail. But let's not be Pollyanna about it. Other companies seem to be able to come back sales-wise and sustain several brands, all with increasing sales (e.g., your hated Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Cadillac...not to mention Opel and Holden). I could make you even madder by mentioning Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram, but I won't because then you will go off on another tangent, rather than admitting that the SRX and MKX directly compete in size and price.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dunno. I'm 46 and would've considered a Lincoln Town Car, but nothing in Lincoln's current lineup interests me in the least - a couple of rebadged Fords, a truncated MKS with a puny V-6, and an array of stupid crossovers and SUVs does nothing for me. Heck, I'll take a Chrysler 300 over anything Lincoln now offers.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Lincoln: What a Mercury Should've Been.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Is the XTS FWD, RWD, or AWD?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    FWD/AWD. It is a stretched, upgraded Lacrosse.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Shoot, if they went through all the trouble to make it AWD, why not offer just a RWD version as well?
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Looks like they upgraded the 2012 SRX and dropped the smaller engines. But it's still $4300 cheaper in base form and it's 1-3 inches smaller in wheelbase, track, rear seat legroom.

    I agree they did a nice job on it but how do you know most sales weren't cheaper base models? I also thought the 2011s had highly subsidized lease rates on the base models but I don't know that for sure.

    I guess we'll have to see how sales compare on the 2012s. Last month Caddy sales were down and Lincoln was up significantly. How do you explain that?
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    FWD/AWD. It is a stretched, upgraded Lacrosse.

    So it's ok when Cadillac does it but not when Ford does it?
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    You don't understand what I meant. The other marks don't have this problem that Lincoln has. Lincolns are viewed as more expensive Fords. lexus ,Nissan etc don't have that problem even with their cars that share platforms with their cheaper cousins. Look what happened with the MKS and Taurus. Ford has turned the Taurus into a cheaper MKS as they both share the same platform.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    From my point of view it is not my opinion. But again,Cadillac does not have this problem of being seen as more expensive Buicks or Chevys.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Cadilllac can't beat BMW. Have you driven a CTSV sedan or coupe? The CTSV was considered to be the worlds fastest sport sedan.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And why does Lincoln have that perception? Because they've been sharing way too many parts with Ford. Look at the Edge and MKX from the side and you can barely tell them apart. It isn't the fact that they share platforms, it's the fact that they haven't done enough in the past to differentiate them.

    Now they're going to differentiate everything including powertrains. All it will take is one well done vehicle for Lincoln to be relevant again.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And exactly how many BMW owners do you know that have actually switched from a BMW to a CTS-V? I'm guessing none - or very very few. And it's not the car's fault. You could produce the best sports sedan in the world and it wouldn't cause most BMW drivers to switch because it's more than just the car - it's the image.
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    edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    But you can buy a CTSV in Europe. But only the V model. It was featured on Top Gear, I mean the British version. Besides you said that Cadillac can't compete with BMW. If its an image thing then Lincoln can't compete with Cadillac.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    edited August 2011
    What I meant was that Cadillac is not going to get conquest sales from BMW owners - and neither is Lexus or anyone else except maybe AMG. And it has nothing to do with the car itself.

    I guess I have to keep saying this. Nobody respected Cadillac until the current CTS. All it takes is one great vehicle.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2011
    When did I ever say it is not ok for Ford to do it, you goofball? :P I don't think you really read posts so much as look for things to argue with, even if you have to manufacture some criticism of all holy Ford (Lincoln) in what you read. HELLO! I am a life long Ford and Lincoln fan, but I try not to allow my fanboi-ness to get in the way of either recognizing good moves by the competition or dumb moves by Ford (Lincoln). Right now Ford is pedaling well. Lincoln is not. They have fallen mightily since 1998 and you cannot dispute that.

    Like you cannot dispute that SRX and MKX are the same size and price (no, MKX doesn't offer a model stripped of content enough to go $4K less, but Lincoln could easily do so, if they wanted), and they are being marketed to the very same consumers. Comparably equipped, they are the same price. An inch or two less rear legroom makes one a smaller size?? How many times have we seen vehicles with essentially the same footprint have different rear legroom measurements? Like all the time! Get real. My S60 has about five more inches of wheelbase than the VW Jetta sedan, but the Jetta has several more inches rear legroom.

    You do go on about how his THIS time the Lincoln boys really have the recipe to not only come back, but trounce those who are doing well now. Ford has had many good eras, but Ford's other brands have never done consistently well for any period of time. Mercury had a couple of good years several decades ago, and Lincoln has rivaled Cadillac a couple of years. Otherwise they have largely been also rans, and mostly dead (Edsel, Mercury, Merkur...even Continental was a separate brand for awhile). The off-loaded brands (Mazda, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover, etc.) are all still around, but Ford could not maintain its corporate health doing what VW does.

    I do not know what it is, but there is a long long history of Ford being unable to do anything but Fords very well. Yet within all those brands under Ford's watch, there have been iconic models. That is one of the reasons I still hope for the best for this brand.

    The upgraded interiors and unique styling and appointments will certainly help, but that is no different than what some other companies have been doing successfully for years. May I remind you Allen that you used to insist that common greenhouses and doors were not important, since most people would never realize an Explorer and a Mountaineer used the same body? You eventually moved on from that argument, but you simply move to the next dream for saving Ford's one remaining other brand effort.

    So in two or three years, Lincoln may actually have some stellar product. The problem is so will so many other companies. Good enough doesn't cut it anymore, and Ford now knows that. Yet I look at brands like Kia and Hyundai that a short while ago were little more than cheap junk. The new Focus is a wonderful compact car (ok, the transmission sucks), but Consumer Reports actually rates the Hyundai Elantra higher. How does an upstart company that had such mediocre product all of a sudden have a new Accent that is arguably even better than the Fiesta (a great little car itself) all the way up to an Equus? Plus revamping Kia just as quickly? How did they do that???

    In the luxury arena, there are several strong efforts from the US, Japan, Europe and now Korea to increase their companies market share with more and better product. India and China are the next Japans and Germanys in coming years. I am blown away by how quickly the Chinese car field went from totally laughable to beginning to look interesting.

    Lincoln has a formidable task. They are fighting back from a much lower bottom than anyone thought possible a few years ago, and there is so much more competition than ever before. Lincoln has no overseas presence or recognition. Competition will only increase with the economic development of China, India, and places like Brazil. GM saved its [non-permissible content removed] to some degree by investing heavily in China early on. That really helped VW too.

    Lincoln can certainly be a niche brand, and a good one. As to being a dominant luxury brand, that team better be prepared to take some big risks. Field the concept for a change. Don't water it down a bit. The MKT was a stupidly missed opportunity to have a unique and polarizing vehicle. Instead we got a blobby station wagon that has made no waves at all. If the new MKZ is daring enough in its supposed "Aston Martin-ness," it might steal some sales from CTS, A4 and Infinity G. But I cannot help but think that focus groups will still be hard at work, convincing the company to water things down as focus groups always do. Group decisions do not generate passion as often as genuine passion does.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    And all for a fraction of the cost of the CTS.
    Ha! A fraction?? That is a laugh. Fords and GMs are always within dollars of one another comparably equipped. Now of course you cannot produce a proper and modern rear drive car as cheaply as a front drive.

    Ford has never in recent memory pulled a Hyundai (or going back 20 some years, a Lexus) by actually offering the very same equipment and quality for thousands less. If Ford truly does want to make a splash in the near-luxury market, they could consider cutting their prices by a lot. Because obviously it works. Again, think Lexus. Get the good goods out there. Then charge what the market will bear when pleased buyers return.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Development costs, not vehicle cost. And you accuse me of comprehension problems?

    GM spent several billion dollars on Cadillac's turnaround and all they have to show for it is one decent sedan and one decent small crossover. Lincoln will have 7 vehicles and will spend less than half that amount.

    I know you guys don't believe Ford is capable of producing great luxury products but my point is this is an entirely new management team and they are doing things that Ford has never done before.

    Let's just wait and see when the new vehicles arrive. This is getting old.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    When Lincoln once again builds something as grand as this, I'll believe you:

    image
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    nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ford has resurrected itself without government help, and it did make a difference with GM. A big one. It gave them enormous advantage in development costs. Having recently rented a CTS Coupe, I was extremely impressed with the way it performs. Not too impressed with the things that didn't work on it, but that's normal GM and people seem to accept that. Nonetheless, it's far better than anything Lincoln has yet. Ford's problem has always been inconsistent leadership. Bill Ford did not like the Lincoln brand, and starved it into irrelevance during his reign of terror. Alan Mullaly recognizes the necessity of Lincoln in the Ford stable, particularly after selling off all the off shore brands, and will redevelope the brand, IF, he stays around long enough to see it through. Nasser was on the right track with Lincoln when he introduced the LS. But alas, it never made a lot of money and was under appreciated while it was alive. Now, in "reruns", it has an interesting following and is recognized for the amazing car that it truly was. I left Lincoln after 16 loyal years in 2002 because they no longer made a luxury sedan that was respectable in my opinion. Haven't been back, but continued to buy Mercurys until they stopped making them. I sincerely hope Alan can bring Lincoln back to the glory days of the 90s. The MKS ain't bad, but it's no Cadillac, Lexus, or heaven forbid, BMW. Maybe, an Acura. Maybe. The MKT is an embarrassment. So ugly. The MKZ is getting better, but was pathetic at first. The MKX doesn't feel at all like a Lincoln should feel. Feels like a Hyundai. No, nothing there yet, sorry to say. I don't know if I'll ever go back, but as good as I believe they are in quality and reliability, they just don't feel like a luxury car should, in my opinion. Not yet. :sick:
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Development costs, not vehicle cost. And you accuse me of comprehension problems? Yes, I do. Development costs must be paid back too. Plus, Cadillac has fewer ways to cost share, with its unique cars. Is it the right way? I don't know, but it is a tack also pursued by some other luxury marques. That is one reason why Ford doesn't pursue it now: cost.

    GM spent several billion dollars on Cadillac's turnaround and all they have to show for it is one decent sedan and one decent small crossover. Lincoln will have 7 vehicles and will spend less than half that amount. You fail to mention that Lincoln already has several decent vehicles: MKZ, MKS, MKX, even MKT and Navigator. They will have seven vehicles? That's great. They will need at least that to compete. But you seem to miss that by the time those seven vehicles are out, Cadillac will have at least as many new ones. Audi will have more (A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, A7, A8, A9, TT, Q1, Q3, Q5, Q7, R8, not to mention the S models). Should I go on with the new Infinitys coming, the Jaguar model expansion, new Mercedes models, etc.? The point is that Lincoln needs a bunch of new/refreshed models soon just to survive.

    I know you guys don't believe Ford is capable of producing great luxury products but my point is this is an entirely new management team and they are doing things that Ford has never done before. Once again, just as I did not say that Ford should not use platform sharing, I never said that Ford was not capable of producing great luxury products. That has never been Ford's problem. I wish the new management team well, and hope they have the creativity to compete with all the other managment teams in this cut-throat business as well as the balls to make something really unique.

    Yes, let's just wait and see. We have no other choice.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's just it - they don't NEED anything to "survive". Ford's profits are just fine right now so they can afford to wait until the new Lincoln products are ready.

    But you seem to miss that by the time those seven vehicles are out, Cadillac will have at least as many new ones.

    Name one new Cadillac vehicle that was successful on it's first attempt in the last 10 years.

    DTS? dead. XLR? dead. STS? dead. First CTS? dud. First SRX? major dud.

    And I agree that Lincoln hasn't fared much better although I think the new MKX is much better than you give it credit for. It still needs unique greenhouse thought.

    The difference is I see a totally new game plan, dedication and funding for Lincoln so I expect a different outcome. What has changed at GM that would make you expect a different outcome?
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