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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    edited December 2011
    Lincoln can have its less sophisticated engineered models to bolster sales. It can call them MK whatever. However, there is a demand for a well engineered one of a kind rwd premium model that FoMoCo needs. These, if they ever come into production -and that is a really big if knowing how cheap Ford is when it comes to making Lincoln a premier mark again- should be called Lincoln Continentals
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    edited December 2011
    If anyone wants to view a few pic of classic Lincoln KB here is a link.

    http://www.supercars.net/cars/1004.html
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    there is a demand for a well engineered one of a kind rwd premium model

    Really? Have you looked at sales numbers for these large RWD premium sedans like the 7-series and S class? They're not that big especially when Lincoln doesn't have global sales.

    As for Ford being cheap with Lincoln that was the past when Mercury still existed and Lincoln was part of PAG. Now that all of the distractions are gone it appears Ford is willing to spend the money to make Lincoln successful, starting with the dealer network upgrades and a dedicated 100+ person staff and dedicated design team.

    Whether they're successful or not will depend on execution, not money or commitment.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    edited December 2011
    Tell me is there a demand for Lincoln's Ford knock off fwd vehicles? Amongst auto enthusiast there is a demand for well engineered rwd vehicles. Of course, that type of vehicle appeals to those of us who are not interested in the lowest common denominator. It seems that the LCD target audience is the one that Ford is hoping to catch with its Ford Lincoln knock offs. Lincoln just right now does not appeal to those as I. Those of us who are not plebeians. Right now Lincoln is geared towards those who believe that there is real cachet value in a Ford knock off with a Lincoln name attached to it. These people are not real enthusiast. In fact I would bet that the majority of these buyers are in their late sixties. Most of these folks know very little of what a premium mark should be . They believe that a car is a car. You know, they all have 4 wheels and an engine and a passenger compartment but they are willing to pay extra for a Lincoln name.But those as I know better that just because a car has a better body style that does not mean that the car is any better than its lower priced cousin.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If I was trying to rebuild a premium luxury brand that had been neglected for years I certainly wouldn't be spending extra money going after the enthusiast market with low volume vehicles. I'd put my money into fixing the dealership experience and getting a good lineup of upgraded vehicles out the door first.

    Lincoln can do a lot with the existing platforms to differentiate themselves from Ford. I think the new MKZ will prove that and in the process it may even outsell the mighty CTS.
  • I have to agree with Allen. While it would be nice if Lincoln had a RWD flagship model (or eventually moved to all RWD based models), the enthusiast market is relatively small, and the choices for them are already very large. Car companies have shown that FWD/AWD cars can be quite successful in both near-luxury and luxury markets. The Bentley Continental and Bentley Flying Spur both are FWD based AWD, and have proven to be the most popular models in that rarified realm north of $200K. Lots of people actually prefer front drive for the stability, especially in poor weather conditions. Ford needs to rebuild Lincoln into a brand that means something, but as Audi has proven, which end has the drive wheels is less important than the overall execution of the product. Sure, RWD can still spank FWD in some handling respects, but a well set up AWD, whether based on FWD or RWD can sometimes best either one. That whole FWD v. RWD is moot for most luxury buyers, as they are not enthusiasts, and will never use the capabilities and handling limits of their cars. Still, they appreciate a well built machine, and that goes well beyond what extra 10ths a RWD set-up may provide.

    At some point, Lincoln may decide RWD is necessary to compete, and then they will either go there or die. However, it is not necessary right now. What is needed are cars that stand out, and look and feel like they are worth the money. Meanwhile, people like yourself who appreciate the fine points of well-balanced RWD sedans have choices like BMW. If that is too much money, the new Chrysler 300 and the Hyundai Genesis are quite good at their price points.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    I thought the Bentleys that you wrote had full time Torsen awd. These cars develop at least 550 hp with their W12 engines. I don't believe that a fwd based vehicle can handle that kind of hp. I also believe that the Bugatti Veyron also uses the awd Torsen system. If Lincoln had this system on its vehicles the price of a Lincoln would cost about 15 k more. But that would put the Lincoln into a price category out of reach for the value customer whom Lincoln depends on for its sales. Unfortunately Lincoln is after those who can tell their neighbors that they have a Lincoln while those as I would tell him he could have saved himself at least 5 k by buying its Ford brother. He would have the same car with only a different body style and be at least 5k richer. If he was interested in a premier vehicle, some one as I would have advised him on what vehicle to purchase.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    edited December 2011
    The enthusiast market is the market for premier vehicles. Whom do you think would spend the kind of cash on a Mercedes or Equus? It is not the guy who is looking for value only. Tell me, why should I spend more money on a Lincoln when I can have its Ford brother at a cheaper price? I am not interested in the electronic gizmos or other items. I don't care about items that eventually will be available on cheaper cars. I am only interested in the engineering of the vehicle. And I don't care if the commonality between the new Lincolns and Fords would be that they share floor pans. If they share floor pans, that would still mean that both makes share the same torsional rigidity. Torsional rigidity determines how well a car handles and rides. The handling and riding experience would not be much different that driving a Lincoln's less expensive Ford brother.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Whom do you think would spend the kind of cash on a Mercedes or Equus?

    On the former, not enthusiasts for the vast sales. It's badge snobs, show offs or perhaps a few that care about engineering. AMG is another story but I'd even say more than 75% buy AMG for the badge.

    On the latter, who knows who is buying Equus'. They haven't sold enough of them.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2011
    What Robr2 said. People who have the disposable income, are badge snobs, and know what a BMW, Mercedes or Jaguar means (or Rolls or Bentley in more rarified air) buy these cars all the time. They may appreciate the finer points of the interior, or the feel of the controls, but they are not enthusiasts who use the capabilities of these machines. You do, but you are in the minority. Just go out and observe the driving habits of most people, no matter what class of car. BTW, I said nothing about "value," although that is definitely another discussion.

    As for the Bentley Continental, and the larger Flying Spur sedan, both are loosely based on the Audi A8 architecture, which starts out FWD. Now, of course all Bentleys are AWD (save the Mulsanne) in order to handle their prodigious power, and improve handling overall. How that power is sent to the rear wheels can be done in a number of ways, and for example, 60% of that power can be sent rearward under all normal conditions, with different percentages adjusted to changing conditions. Lincoln can and will engineer similar systems for their own intelligent AWD systems. Torsen, viscous coupling, and Haldex systems can all be improved with torque vectoring and other electronic aids. The bottom line is that if Audi (and Bentley) can meet many enthusiasts' needs with architecture that started where the front wheels are driven first, so can Lincoln.

    And your argument about torsional rigidity fails in the same way. Floor pans contribute of course, but other engineering tweaks affect it as well. None of your objections are anything Lincoln cannot overcome, starting with a good architectural base. The real proof of the pudding will be whether they do it or not, going out from here.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    why should I spend more money on a Lincoln when I can have its Ford brother at a cheaper price?

    Because going forward no normal person will be able to tell they're brothers.

    Sounds like you want a totally dedicated from the ground up luxury brand - if so then there are plenty of choices for you starting with BMW.

    Expecting Lincoln to go there - especially at this point in their rebirth - is silly.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    there is a demand for a well engineered one of a kind rwd premium model that FoMoCo needs. These, if they ever come into production -and that is a really big if knowing how cheap Ford is when it comes to making Lincoln a premier mark again- should be called Lincoln Continentals

    Oh man, you're singing my song!~!! I SO want the MK dropped, and go back to the Legacy names! I'd be fine with Continental or Town Car, depending on how this potential car turns out, but I couldn't agree with you more, Edward. And this would be the only way Lincoln would possibly get me back.

    I bought an old LS (2001) at the auction for a friend Friday. Driving it Saturday was a throwback to the days when Lincoln had real potential to become a player, before Cadillac even woke up! Nasser, for all his faults, had this idea right. That car, 10 years old, was so far superior to the MK anything they have now, I'm tempted to buy another one for me. Such a good driver's car.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Well , those such as us are going to have a long wait. Lincolns are not suppose to be fwd ;and they still will be seen as upper end Fords even with unique body styles. Other cars may and able to do some sharing of plat ford. however ,Lincoln has been criticized for being higher priced Fords for such awhile that Lincoln needs at least one unique vehicle for its line -up. Lincoln needs to make an engineering statement that befits its newer body styles.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    edited December 2011
    Exactly. The MKZ is a nice Fusion, the MKS is a nice Taurus, the MKX is a nice Edge, the MKT is a nice Flex, but uglier than hell, and the Navigator (of which I owned 2 and loved them) alas, is still a nice Expedition.

    If Ford would develop a RWD platform and tune it well like they did the LS in 2000, and make a couple of real performers out of it, then make a larger cruiser for a Town Car you can stretch, they could come back fairly quickly I believe, just based on what Cadillac was able to do. As a former Cadillac owner (83, 85, 87, 90), as the cars just got worse, and worse, until I could abide them no more, and tried a Lincoln in 92, I never believed Cadillac would recover from its laughingstock sad parody of their former grandeur. But they did. They may never be the "Standard of the World" again, the competition is just too steep now, but they are respected again. Lincoln could be too, I think, with all new excellent product.

    Meantime, they got nothin but Buick competitors right now. They are nice Buicks, and good cars I think, if you are not a "car guy", but not even luxury anymore IMO, more like "near luxury". How sad is that?

    And PLEASE, if anybody from Ford is listening out there - GET RID OF THE ALPHABET SOUP NAMES!!! I was actually on the focus group with the ad agency that was working on changing the names of the Lincoln Models in about 2000, and the overwhelming concensus from the group was to keep the legacy names of the Lincoln models and to NOT change to letters on any of the models. We did, in fact, name the Aviator, but they wanted to call it an LN 4.6, and we vetoed that. But either management or the agency was hell bent to go with letters to conform to the Euro style of model naming. They did it anyway, but the real idiocy of it was to MK everything! WTF? I hate it so badly, it would be a serious obstacle for me in considering a Lincoln again.

    Mercedes uses a system that means something, C, E, S-classes, and the number for the engine inside. You can understand the car by the designation. BMW uses numbers, 3,5,6,7 and 8 followed by the litres of the engine inside - you can easily identify the car with this system.

    Cadillac's system is not nearly as good, but you at least know the CTS is small, the DTS is large, and the STS is, well gone now. SRS is wierd, they don't have it right either. But the MK should just be dropped, because every model has it, it identifies NOTHING. May as well call them Z, X, T and S.
  • May as well call them Z, X, T and S.

    They do. :P
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If Ford would develop a RWD platform and tune it

    There are a number of posts saying basically the same thing, Lincoln needs to go RWD to succeed. But isn't one of the hottest luxury brands right now Audi and they seem to be thriving with FWD vehicles???

    Totally agree on the asinine Lincoln vehicle names. They seem completely meaningless and confusing.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    But Lincoln is not Audi. And Audi's echelon vehicles use a Torsen full time awd system which is biased 60% to the rear and 40% to the front. Now if Lincoln did something like that it would be something even though it would not be the ideal 50-50 weight distribution for ideal handling.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They would have to beef up the ptu, driveshaft and rear differential to handle the prolonged torque but the software to do it is already there. I believe Ford will either go this route or a mustang/falcon based RWD platform for high performance.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    But isn't one of the hottest luxury brands right now Audi and they seem to be thriving with FWD vehicles???

    You make a good point I had forgotten - and not having driven an Audi lately, I don't have a feel for how they drive. I have to assume very well. If Lincoln does go the AWD way, it needs to be a performance engineered AWD, not one made for snow. There is a difference.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford's AWD system is already designed to help with performance by sending torque to the rear before slip occurs based on throttle input and steering angle. So it is much more than just reacting after slip occurs. What it cannot do at this point is send torque to the rear for long periods of time. The components aren't engineered to handle the stress or the heat. But that could be fixed.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Did I see that picture correctly? It looks to me as though the Dear Leader's hearse is a stretched Lincoln Town Car.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Yes you did. It's the same one that carried his father's body back in the early 90's.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited December 2011
    It must be a really low mileage Lincoln, if it's only used for funerals of Great Leaders and Dear Leaders. I wonder how much it would be worth at a free world auction.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited December 2011
    image

    image

    I'm wondering how the heck North Korea got them in the first place. Haven't we had a trade embargo with them since the Korean War?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Great question - they look like about circa 1975 models. Maybe the French sold them to them.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image

    Dig those funky chrome headlamp doors and circa 1982 fog lamps! I guess "Dear Leader" wasn't above tacky aftermarket auto accessories!
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I'm wondering how the heck North Korea got them in the first place. Haven't we had a trade embargo with them since the Korean War?

    Probably ebay motors from a BHPH lot in Georgia (not the southern one, the one in Soviet Russia).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Still has more class than a Maybach.

    Nice mirrors, too.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Sadly, this is not a good thing for Lincoln, but kind of tells the story since the Communist countries are known for their VIP Ziv's and Lincoln has become just about as irrellevant in the auto business.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited December 2011
    You mean the ZIL?

    image

    The Soviets were better off copying old Packards than coming up with their own designs.

    image

    I like this one much better!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    They look like Nixon/Ford's fleet of Presidential Limos, maybe Carter sold them to the North Koreans in exchange for ....... well, never mind.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    You mean the ZIL?

    Yeah, you're right. But don't you think Ziv sounds more Rusky - just kidding! I enjoyed those pictures, but maybe that newer one is a cross between a stolen Mercedes and a stolen Toyota Cressida? Comparing those two pictures also shows how sometimes older styling is more classic than starker new design concepts regardless of country.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Packard copycat shown on photo is ZIL-111. Another Packard copy was GAZ-14 Chaika http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaika_(car) - available to lower level bureaucrats and ZIS from 30s-40s. After copying Packard in 30s-50s Soviets started to copy Lincolns in 60s-70s - both ZIL and GAZ.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    You should see the inside of that 70s design ZIL - blatant copy of a MB W116 steering wheel, and were even available with nearly identical upholstery.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2011
    That 75 Lincoln was ugly and ungainly back then, and continues to be so now that it is decades old. It fits with the Soviet era limos well. What they were thinking when they went from the 1972 more graceful roofline and rear door cutout to the square back door window, a la AMC Ambassador, with an oval opera window plunked in the big space this created in what had previously been a Thunderbird-style sail panel?? Plus, they screwed on huge battering ram bumpers that were almost completely un-integrated, like all the rest of the FordMoCo models, save the Mark V (which integrated its bumpers more like the competition did). Ugh! I hated that 1975 facelift then, and don't like it any better now years later. Mid 70s cars were hardly a high point in auto styling in general, but this one...eew. Plus, the regular non-extended sedan was 233" long. What a behemoth to drive.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Admitting the weaknesses of the 70's era North American cars, the wind noise, the weight, the velour, the SIZE, and the mileage and miserable lack of power, not to forget that the government was the reason for the low power and mileage, as well as the battering ram chrome bumpers, I still liked 'em. The Lincolns especially were aircraft carrier sized, boat soft ride, unfortunately, same handling, very luxurious inside, quiet, comfy, and roomy. You actually could seat 8 in them if you wanted to. Not the high water mark in our product, to be sure, but they had their appeal.

    In the 70's, I drove LTDs, Pintos, Mavericks, Torinos. But lusted for a Lincoln. Just couldn't swing it at the time. Misery index and all.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited December 2011
    My Uncle Daniel had a 1975 Lincoln Continental sedan at the time. I once owned a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille. I'd hardly call either of them the high point for either marque, but I thought they were cool in their own way.

    I'd love to have both a 1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham and a 1965 Lincoln Continental should I have two automotive wishes granted by the car genie.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    The mid 70's brought us disco which in retrospect was kind of klitchy and not as bad as some proclaimed at the time. Mid 70's cars do have some retro cool IMHO like landau roofs, fake wire wheel covers, velour seats, coach lights and sometimes even opera windows. Not sure I'd want those on my car these days, but its kind of cool to look at them in old car shows while Bee Gees tunes pop into your head.
  • For me, the high points of Lincoln sedans since the 60s were the 61-63 and 66-69. I didn't care for the 64 and 65 when they briefly went back to slab side windows, rather than curved side glass. The early 70s models weren't bad for the time, but were already overly large. I also liked the 85-87 Continental before it went front drive, and after they had integrated the bumpers and angled the grill back a bit. Then the 1990 Town Car came along, which was an attractive design for its era. The 1998 TC lines were also drawn pretty well for the time, but I never cared for it as much, given they moved the TC to the Panther architecture that year (losing some interior width). The 1997-02 Continental was pretty awful (miles of overhangs on 109"wheelbase, which is 3" shorter than the too short wheelbase on the forgettable MKS). I am hoping that the new MKZ may be the first Lincoln sedan in 20 years with truly distinctive styling. The LS was a good car for its time, but while its lines were not awful, it was closer to non-descript than distinctive.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Personally, I never really got much into Lincoln. I guess my favorite would be a 40's Continental with maybe a V12. I liked the mid 50's Mark II and thought the 56 Premier and Capri were kind of cleanly styled but the 57 maybe a bit overdone. I appreciate the clean and unique styling of those early 60's Elwood Engel models including the 4 dr convertible, but preferred an Imperial or Caddy in the early 60's, although those Lincoln Continentals had a nice leather interior. I also like some of the later Marks like the III and the VIII. Rumor has it the upcoming Lincoln's will be a bit Jaguarish - but I guess time will tell.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Yeah, NOW they make them Jag-like! After Ford sold Jag off like a Chrysler dealership in Tokyo! :confuse:
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Regardless of upcoming Lincoln styling or engineering, I would never cal them Jaguar like. Ford would have to open up the purse strings to make Lincoln Jaguar like; and Ford just isn't going to do that as long as the majority of buyers are octogenarians.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think they're talking styling, not the overall car. As for Jag, being originally British I don't imagine Chinese quality will make much difference ;)
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    I had a Jag XJ12 Coupe . Faulty ignition module within 3 weeks out of the showroom. Blown head gaskets after 16k miles. Valve lifters that were burned out after 23k miles . Leaking oil pan gasket and rear engine seal after 30 k miles. ANOTHER ignition module toasted at about 31K MILES. Still, I loved that car and had fun driving it. I am looking for another XJC 12 coupe. Sorry I traded the one I had in for a Mercedes 500 SEC. I should have kept it
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Lincoln has a dedicated team of over 100 people right now and they're planning 7 new vehicles all of which will have unique drivetrains, sheetmetal, interiors and features. That's a fairly large investment.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Yea, but they will still share cheaper Ford platforms. All of these items you wrote that will be exclusive to Lincoln will after a few years be available on Fords. As per example, Park Assist.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Lincoln will have exclusive features. The platform snobbery is tiresome. It's not the platform - it's what you do with it.

    Everyone complained about the SRA suspension in the Mustang, yet it outhandles the IRS equipped Camaro easily. Nobody complains about Audi sharing platforms on the A4 and
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The platform snobbery is tiresome. It's not the platform - it's what you do with it.

    That's right. It only seems to matter what Ford builds on their shared platforms. And don't go off on the "rebadging same panels" either. Cadillac builds the SRX on the Equinox platform, as well as the Terrain and now a Buick clone, that's fine. The CUV Traverse has birthed the Acadia, the Enclave, and originally, the Outlook, now Caddy is getting it. Tahoe, Escalade, Fine. Honda builds Acuras on Accord platforms and Civic platforms. No complaints. Toyota builds Lexuses on Camry platforms albeit, only the ES, but no shame in that. Infiniti has been pretty much unique except for their SUVs which are on Nissan truck platforms, but are now going FWD and AWD on Nissan platforms. Jeep/Chrysler, the Grand Cherokee and the Durango are so similar, from the rear, I can't tell them apart until I read the badge. Audi/VW, the list goes on and on, but good heavens, if Ford does it, they're cheap? I'm tired of hearing it too. :mad:
  • Current styling tends to feed on itself. To be fair, there are so many common styling characteristics and cliches out there among various classes (upscale sedans, small CUVs) that I can point out many examples of how competing companies products share shapes and sizes.

    Also, to be fair, in the past GM has often gotten the same criticism (not for their platform sharing so much) for previously sharing the same bodies (like Ford has often done) as well. The Tahoe and Escalade used to use the exact same body with a different front clip, tail lightsand miscellaneous trim pieces. There is now more differentiation between them than there is between the Expedition and Navigator, but it is still not enough. That is why the the Traverse and Acadia and Enclave had more differentiation out of the box (though still not enough...that is why more differentiation is coming with the next iterations).

    The Equinox and Terrain share almost everything, except all body and interior styling. Although twins underneath, they really do look like different vehicles on the road. The SRX is much more modified from those two and does not share wheelbase or any exterior dimensions. This is what I would expect Lincoln to do with a Ford Kuga/Escape base for a Lincoln vehicle.

    As for the upcoming Buick Encore, it shares nothing with the Equinox. Like the Regal (and even to some extent the Lacrosse and Verano) it is based on an already existing Opel model. GM had considered selling Opel while in the the throws of imploding, but ultimately did not. This has saved the US arm of Buick (the Chinese arm needed no saving, as it was and is going like gangbusters) by providing badge engineered models of cars that are not otherwise available here.

    So, the bottom line is Ford (like some others) had been cheap and uncreative with their Ford, Mercury and Lincoln cloning. Sales of Mercury and Lincoln began to reflect the new market realities. Vestiges of that are still being phased out, as some Ford models held on to this scheme longer than other makes did (for instance, the 2012 Expy and Nav).

    Like you and Allen, I don't think there is any problem with using an existing platform as a base for building a better car. That means that this time around, the MKZ won't simply be a Fusion with lipstick. In addition to having its own styling (that's simply mandatory these days, but far from enough), it will also have some identifiable Lincoln features that are not considered Ford features, and some unique powertrains. Otherwise, Lincoln would be headed for the same dustbin as Mercury ended up in.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Nonsense, You can only do so much with a platform to improve it. As I explained before ,the Lincoln platform will share the floor pan with Ford. Lincoln, because of this will have the same ride and handing characteristics as its cheaper Ford brother. It is the floor pan that determines a platform's torsional rigidity which dictates handling and ride quality.
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