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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    True, but, for valid reasons or not, the automotive press seems to care, and it influences the reviews and ratings that people read.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I suggest that you read my message #3903 as it relates to the Lexus ES.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    the automotive press seems to care, and it influences the reviews and ratings that people read.

    Absolutely true. And it doesn't seem to make any difference whatsoever in sales to the average buyer.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Absolutely true. And it doesn't seem to make any difference whatsoever in sales to the average buyer.

    I concur. To the 3% of the market that the buff mags cater to, it's important. To the 97% that just drive, it doesn't.
  • But it does make a difference in sales. The average buyer may be clueless about how his or her luxury car's features compare to the competition, or whether it goes around corners the quickest, but they are brand whores. They know which brands exude real prestige, even if they don't know why. BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Lexus are not on top because they have the best deals or most complete equipment levels. It is because they all have good combinations of auto press reviews, resale value, dealer experience, luxury features, and general recognition by most people that they are prestigious brands. Lincoln can get there by shooting for being the best in their class. They will never be anything but also-rans by aiming for anything less.

    As for the FWD/AWD v. RWD controversy, people will argue it forever, but in the end it doesn't matter. Audi and Bentley both do quite well with mostly FWD based, but rear biased AWD. Continuing development reduces weight, provides better balance, and both brands are beginning to eliminate that "FWD" look as well. That is not difficult. After all, take a look at early FWD cars. The original Olds Toronado had gobs of space between the front wheels and the cab.

    Nothing requires FWD to have the engine largely in front of the front wheels. That was originally a space saving design to carve out larger interiors on smaller cars. But sometimes, a similar size RWD car has more interior space than a similar sized FWD one. There are so many factors in designing good legroom within a wheelbase of a certain size.

    As an example, the new Sentra has more rear legroom than Altima or Maxima. The humongous Town Car only had 117" of wheelbase with RWD, but offered virtually the same rear legroom as the 117" wheelbased FWD MKT. Both configurations can be designed for space, or looks, or balance, or handling...or not. RWD starts out with a handling advantage, all other factors being equal. But those factors in reality are never equal.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Ford says this MKZ is the future of Lincoln. The car that will save it from suffering the same fate as Mercury, Plymouth, Oldsmobile and Pontiac. But if this is the best Ford can do, we say Mulally, Fields and Farley should just cut their losses and get the headstone ready."

    2013 Lincoln MKZ Road Test
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Stupid move to use ringer tires. However, it should be noted that with those tires it outhandled a M5 so obviously the suspension is good.

    Some people have such high expectations that nothing Lincoln does would be good enough.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    edited December 2012
    I look forward to examining and test driving an MKZ. I enjoy reading reviews and comparison tests but I put far more importance on MY opinions than those of others.

    Aside from opinions, however, it is a fact that the rear seat room in the MKZ falls short. Furthermore, the acceleration results for the V6 are disappointing. I don't know if the chassis is robust enough to handle the 3.5 ecoboost but that is the optional engine this car needs. While the review does not mention overall noise levels, the test results show very low noise at a 70 MPH cruise. It would have likely been even quieter if it had the correct tires. Very stupid move for Lincoln to put ringer tires on a test car. Other publications have mentioned the performance tires but implied that they were an option. They are certainly not mentioned on Lincoln's site.

    Lincoln (and Ford) have some work to do around ergonomics. When I checked out a 2013 MKS some time ago, I was very disappointed in the "sliders" for some of the controls, the way they buried the suspension settings in sub-menus and a number of other idiosyncrasies. It sounds like the MKZ followed that same format.

    None of the reviews for the MKZ so far have been particularly positive. Maybe expectations are too high. Maybe it is just too easy to disrespect Lincoln, based on the way the brand has been ignored up until the past year or so. It will be interesting to see how buyers react to the car.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I think it's a combination of expectations being unrealistic and some shortcomings with the vehicle.

    Even so I think it's a far better car than the old MKZ and shows progress in several areas.

    If the next new Lincoln has the same probems, then I'll start to worry.
  • It is interesting that GM Customer Service monitors Edmunds forums, and chimes in if people are experiencing questions or problems. I have never seen Ford or Lincoln customer service people do that here. I think it would be a good idea. It certainly could not hurt.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Nah, my experience with corporate on a problem child Explorer was just as bad as with GM and a problem plagued Oldsmobile. Do those reps online in the GM forum really resolve anything? Not sure from reading that they do. I think the key is to pick your dealership carefully, not just by low price. They are the one who is going to make the difference because they buy the cars from Ford, GM, etc. in much greater volume than your individual purchase. Both of the company reps I dealt with above really were just BS artists blowing off the problem and hoping you just got tired and went away. After that I started paying more attention to customer feedback about dealers. A good dealer will help you out a lot more than some low level corporate suit in my opinion as long as you're not a jerk dealing with them.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford has been doing that through Facebook for some time. I agree all mfrs should do a much better job with customer service. Maybe this is an area where Lincoln will try to separate itself.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    I just recommended that a Honda owner contact the manufacturer with Twitter over on Answers. You never know what's really going to grab their attention. Earlier today there was a story about an older gentleman getting ripped off by an Acura dealer and his kids got satisfaction by contacting the AARP.

    The guy who made YouTube fame with his song about how United Airlines trashed his guitar started a "social media" gripe company recently.

    There has been a Ford rep around; ditto Subaru and BMW, Toyota and probably some others.

    Damage control Customer relations is an international effort these days.
  • It is odd how they managed to lose eight cubic feet of interior space compared to the Fusion. The MKZ roofline is not any more rakish or low than the Fusion's. At least not in appearance. And what's the point of cutting interior space if the roofline outline is not much different from most of the new mid-size sedans? It reminds me of the MKS. Although it is taller, longer and wider--and less gracefully drawn--than a rival (XTS), it has less interior space. Ford needs to work on that. It has been shown that great styling and good interior room can be combined. Lincoln is just not doing it yet.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Definitely a mystery. I'll see if my insider has any info.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Your message #3914 makes the most convincing and well expressed arguments on the FWD/RWD issue that I've read.

    As you may know, I've argued that Lincoln needs at least one RWD based platform to differentiate itself from Ford, and to effectively compete with Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. Infiniti is doing a decent job of competing against BMW. Acura hasn't done consistently well with its Honda derived vehicles, and Audi neutralizes the FWD/RWD architecture issue by heavily promoting its Quattro system. My point regarding your excellent post, however, is that it puts the FWD/RWD issue into clear perspective, and it has tempered my thinking on the course Lincoln should take. I now think that Lincoln could follow Audi's business model if it doesn't reintroduce a RWD platform.
  • Audi is going to spend 17 billion dollars in the next 3 years to overtake BMW. They are already #1 in Europe and China. Meanwhile, Mercedes is intent on being #1. This market is heating up. Lincoln does not have the resources anymore to be a substantial purveyor of luxury vehicles. Niche maybe, like Volvo. But even Volvo sells far more cars worldwide.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    A price war between upper end Euro makes will be interesting if it takes place here. I see Lexus holding their own in that case because of Toyota's deep pockets. The losers would probably be Lincoln and Buick, and to a lesser degree Cadillac perhaps. Buick has gotten pretty expensive, so near lux price war would probably really clobber them.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't see this being a price war - I see it being a product war. Audi could conduct a price war right now without spending a dime. $17B is a lot of new products.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    A good dealer will help you out a lot more than some low level corporate suit in my opinion as long as you're not a jerk dealing with them.

    TOTALLY aqree with your entire paragraph, and even moreso, this last sentence above. The Company really doesn't care about you, the Dealer is their customer. The DEALER should care about you - you are THEIR customer, and they should want to keep you coming back. That won't happen if you don't get treated well there. I can tell you from my viewpoint and experience, I buy more from the dealer, than the car they carry. With a few exceptions, I can find a car I like, if I like the way I'm treated, especially in service, by the dealer. Some GM cars, being an exception. I wouldn't drive a Chevy from Carl Sewell if he changed the oil himself! (He's famous for his service in Dallas).
  • You also speak the truth. On these forums , you always see people saying that they will never buy a GM product, Ford product, Chrysler product, etc., again. What is really going on in most cases is that their dealer did not go the extra distance to fix the problem. All companies times have issued models with poor reliability. However, all of them are capable of building highly reliable products. No company should be written off until it is gone.
  • http://www.automobilemag.com/features/collectible_classic/1212_collectible_class- ic_1961_1963_lincoln_continental/

    Lincoln needs to pull off another coup like the remade 1961 T-bird turned Continental. MKZ is a start, but not this sort of splash.
  • However, Lincoln needs to amp up its luxury styling to really get noticed as a distinctive and desirable brand. This concept really does it:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/07/would-a-mustang-based-lincoln-look-like-this/-
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not feeling it. Looks like a SL500 with a Lincoln nose grafted on.

    I would prefer something along the lines of an Audi S5 or Jaguar XKR.
  • Both you mention are nice designs, but both can get away with being more conventional looking. Lincoln needs to get a look that rivals much more expensive cars...perhaps Rolls, Bentley, or the sinister looking Lexus concept of a few years ago...the name escapes me.

    Maybe this concept isn't it, but something truly dramatic would be a great start. Trying to compete with mainstream has not worked, and probably will not work, for Lincoln. The 1961 Continental looked like nothing else, and took design in a different direction. The 2013 MKZ is distinctive, but it is not going to turn heads for very long.

    BTW, that "grafted on" Lincoln nose is far more dramatic than any Lincoln nose proposed so far. So it is a start, if this motor company ever learns to get bold again.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited January 2013
    The '61 Continental is often mentioned as a breakthrough design, and it was. Even though it arguably looked more elegant than the Cadillac, it failed to sell in anywhere near the numbers that threatened Cadillac's dominance of the North America luxury car market (sorry, but I can't site comparative numbes). Maybe the reason the Conti didn't sell better was that it was too diferent. Or maybe it was because it was only offered in a 4-door sedan and convertible, and no 2-doors. The fact that it was very heavy, particlarly for its footprint, and fell considerably short of the Cadillacs in interior room and trunk space may have hurt sales.

    Does anyone know or have any ideas of why the '61- '69 Lincolns didn't grab more market share?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I remember as a kid that some Chicago newspaper articles talked about it being perceived as small by luxury buyers. But I think it improved on the sales volume of the prior huge beasts with those canted headlights and breezeway rear windows. Some internet sites put 61 production around 25K which is double the Imperial, but Cadillac was good for well over 100K. The Continental actually improved sales volume when it was squared off and enlarged a bit in the mid 60's to around 50K. But remember, GM significantly outsold Ford/Lincoln Mercury, so the big Caddy lead shouldn't be a surprise.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Thanks for the information, berri.

    Comparatively good resale value was an advantage that Cadillac enjoyed over its rivals from 1946 through the 1960s, and maybe beyond. Also, I've heard that it didn't cost Cadillac owners any more to trade in their cars every two or three years than it did Oldsmobile or Buick owners to trade theirs.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    Often the dealer is faced with a factory that is very stingy on reimbursement for repairs. If transmissions for a model fail regularly 10,000 miles after the warranty ends, but the manufacturer maintains a "see no evil" stance regarding the problem, very few dealers can eat the entire cost of multiple transmission repair/replacements.

    I've also read that dealers take note of which customers are regulars (meaning, they bring the car to the dealer for regular maintence and repairs), and treat those customers differently than someone who only shows up with a known, but out-of-warranty defect or problem.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited January 2013
    Lincoln really reduced its model offerings for 1961. The car was only available as a four-door sedan or convertible.

    These were the years when two-door hardtops were very popular, especially in the luxury market. If I recall correctly, the two-door hardtop was Cadillac's best-selling body style during the 1960s. Lincoln left this market to Cadillac, and, to a lesser extent, the Imperial, and didn't enter it again until the 1966 model year.

    The Lincoln was also available in one expensive trim level, which corresponded with the "Fleetwood" series Cadillacs. There was no Lincoln equivalent of the Cadillac 62/Calais for several years after 1960.

    Robert McNamara wanted to shut down Lincoln after the debacle with the awful 1958 models. The 1961 Continental was Lincoln's last chance, so product planners didn't want to spend too much money on a variety of body styles, as McNamara demanded that Lincoln be profitable.

    He left the company for the Kennedy Administration soon after the 1961 Lincoln went on sale, but no one had any way of knowing that this would happen when these cars were being planned.

    It would be interesting to compare the demographics (age, income, education level) of Lincoln and Cadillac buyers during the 1960s. The Continental always seemed a bit more exclusive than its Cadillac competitors. During these years, a fair number of otherwise middle-class people were stretching to own a Cadillac (which shows the strength of its appeal, but ultimately cheapened its image). Was this happening with Lincoln, or did it draw its buyers more exclusively from the upper crust?
  • The 61 Continental sold very well. You have to remember that Lincoln by that time was coming back from the dead, and so the level of sales that this one and only model achieved was impressive. Lincoln did a complete 180. These Continentals were expensive, and they were pre-driven and went through other rigorous testing before sale. They had the longest warranty for that time. Sales grew as the model increased in size later in the decade.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    Sales of the 1961 Lincoln were up, but not by a huge amount, over the 1960 model year. It didn't help that 1961 was a recession year for car sales.

    Supposedly Ford's leadership was not entirely happy with the sales of the suicide-door Lincolns, even though the cars really did improve Lincoln's image.

    It would take the 1968 Continental Mark III to really boost Lincoln sales and profits.
  • unitedkingdomunitedkingdom Member Posts: 9
    edited January 2013
    It's really sad when the product has to rely on marketing and advertising gimmicks for its survival rather than the product's engineering excellence. Like President Obama said,"You, can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig." So all of you dreamers keep on dreaming that a tarted up Fusion or Mustang is going to convince the discerning buyer that Lincoln is something more than a boutique brand Ford. Buyers of premium vehicles today are intelligent and are not the buyers of yesteryear when coach roofs and opera windows ruled the taste of the American premium car buyer rather than performance, reliability, workmanship and engineering excellence that the premium buyer of today takes for granted in a premium vehicle. It seems that Lincoln is still catering to the velour seat and coach roof crowd rather than the intelligent modern consumer. It's sad that Lincoln will never be a global premium brand because of relying on panoramic glass roofs rather than premium car engineering.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I hope it works but I'm not a fan of super bowl commercials in general as methods to improve sales. I think they're overpriced and do little to generate new customers. I think people remember the good ones as good commercials and not necessarily the product that was advertised. Maybe the crowdsourcing angle will appeal to younger potential buyers.

    I would prefer $7M to be spent on prime time shows which would equate to dozens of 60 minute ads instead of just one.

    If they're going to do it, at least make it really funny.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Like President Obama said,"You, can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig."

    Was that Obama, or was it Palin? I'm thinking it was Palin.

    Given the vast differences between the two people involved, I'm inclined to wonder if the other things you have to say include, well, let's just say equivalent differences between statement and reality.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    edited January 2013
    Oh good grief - that is NOT the new MKC and it will not just have "a new front and rear". Mark my words - it will look nothing like the Escape inside or out and will have an entirely different drivetrain.

    The internet has opened up a whole new level of incompetent "journalists".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ford has their 2013 image gallery up for the Lincoln MKZ.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    We must be looking at different cars. I don't see any coach roofs, velour interiors or even opera windows on the new MKZ.

    You also apparently don't realize that it's no longer 1975 or even 1985. Regarding premium European cars, for example, "engineering excellence" has apparently devolved to "complication for its own sake," "poor results in various reliability surveys" and "nightmarish maintenance and repair costs when the vehicle is out of warranty."

    "Reliability" is not a word that most of us (well, those of us living in 2013) associate with European cars anymore.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
    "The revival of the Lincoln brand takes a major step Monday with the unveiling of the MKC crossover, the smallest vehicle to ever carry the Lincoln name, but a large piece of Ford's strategy to return its remaining luxury brand to prominence.

    It's no accident that the first two products of what Lincoln says will be four all-new vehicles over the next four years are a midsize sedan -- the MKZ -- and the compact MKC. The growth in the luxury market is fueled by younger buyers looking for smaller, fuel-efficient and affordable status symbols.

    The MKC won't go on sale until 2014, but the concept that will be shown Monday at the 2013 North American International Auto Show will be very close to the production car."

    MKC crossover part of Ford's strategy to reinvigorate Lincoln (Detroit Free Press)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2013
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Finally we get to see Max Wolff's future direction for Lincoln. I think this is a stunning vehicle that shares nothing with the Escape - even the wheelbase is different. Shorter front and rear overhangs really give it an aggressive look.

    Change the glass roof to a BAMR and replace the seats with the MKZ seats and I think you have the production version.

    The hood and front grille are especially striking.

    Drivetrains were not announced yet but I expect a 2.0L Hybrid for max fuel economy and a 2.7L EB putting out over 300 hp and torque as the top engine when it hits production.

    Adding that hood and grille to the MKZ would be a big boost IMO.
  • I wouldn't call it stunning, but it is certainly well within the pack right now. I think it is sharp. I wonder though what the competition will be with 2015 models. (One of these articles says the MKC will not be released before 2016, which CANNOT be right, and the other says the 2014 calendar year, which implies 2015 model).

    I really like how they have integrated a new family look into a whole different vehicle type from the MKZ. It copies no one but Lincoln. Now, if they would only re-do the Nav in this style, with new engines, and soon.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The hood and front grille are especially striking.

    The grill has a winged victory look about it.
  • toomanyfumestoomanyfumes Member Posts: 1,019
    Looks really nice. I like it..
    2012 Mustang Premium, 2013 Lincoln MKX Elite, 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Should be out no later than early spring next year. Just like the "spy" shots and articles showing a rebadged Escape - don't believe everything you read.
  • Well, spring next year will make it a 2015 model.

    It has essentially the same grill as the MKZ, which is not a bad thing. That's obviously the new new new Lincoln grill.

    Wonder why they didn't just put the same horizontal bars on the 2013 MKS and MKT grill re-do's?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The grille is more upright on the MkC and the hood character lines extend into the grille and I think that's what makes it look so much better than the laid back flat hood and grille on the MKZ. Had Wolff had more time with the MKZ I bet that's what it would look like too.

    I don't think they wanted to debut the new grille on an existing vehicle.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    So why in the hell is it taking Lincoln so long to launch this vehicle?
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