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Comments
Well, that is different. Certainly, the CTS and XTS would not be mistaken for one another. They do in fact have a lot of overlap in price, and that will be even more true with the 2014 CTS. What you have is different strokes for different folks. XTS will satisfy some former DTS owners, plus some new buyers who want room, features and don't care which wheels power their car. The new CTS will be more competitive with the European brands, and noticeably larger than the ATS (and current CTS).
This will all be sorted out better when Cadillac brings out its RWD large sedan in 2016. Meanwhile, they might just keep the XTS around for those who prefer front drive, and a less expensive large luxury car.
AFAIK, Lincoln will soldier on with just two sedans for the next few years. This could work if the MKS is significantly improved and soon, and the CUVs/SUVs all are revamped following the MKC. They will not catch Cadillac again--not to mention Audi, Mercedes and BMW, all of which offer a ton of different models--until such time as they can greatly expand their line-up.
Meanwhile, they should set their sights on competing with Chrysler (a brand with plans to move upmarket), Acura, and Buick. All these marques have smaller model offerings and are vulnerable to the vagaries of preference at least here in the US.
Lincoln also needs to form a presence elsewhere. GM is beginning to sell more cars in China that in all of the US, and Asian markets will continue to grow as the mature US market remains at approximately the same level.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/07/capsule-review-2013-lincoln-mkz/
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
After about 2003, the platform was no longer competitive with other luxury brands, and Lincoln failed to renew it properly. They did dumb stuff, and actually cheapened it, trying to stretch out sales without any significant investment. A Town Car used to be something. For the last years of its run, it was livery sales and really elderly people who had not driven anything else.
The 1996 Town Car for example was light years better than the pretty 1966. But the 2006 was arguably struggling to be as good as the 1996, and far more similar to the Grand Marquis than the 1996 ever was. Lincoln began to lose their way even as their sales peaked in about 1998. It took a few more years to play out the mediocrity.
Bill Ford was responsible for much of the decline, not even letting Lincoln be a full member of the Premier Auto Group. And then Ford set about screwing up those brands, thinking they could just buy prestige and push whatever products (e.g., Type X) with those brand names.
It is interesting that all of the PAG brands that Ford unloaded at fire sale prices (Aston Martin, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover) have been able to survive and remake themselves, despite the huge uphill battles. None of them are out of the woods, but all have really interesting new products and collaborations, and none of them went the way of Saab. Mazda is now better too, what with the new 6, the CX-5 and the 2014 3.
"J Mays, Ford’s design chief, said the company’s focus on rebuilding Lincoln has only just begun — and that Lincoln’s reinvention could take a decade.
“No, we’re not true luxury,” Mays said Tuesday following an event at the automaker’s Dearborn campus. “We’re in an investment stage with Lincoln. We’ve probably got a 10-year investment to make.”
Ford exec: Lincoln 'not true luxury' brand yet (Detroit News)
Interesting quote here:
"Most luxury brands today aren’t luxury brands,” Hall said. “They’ve become luxury-branded products."
And that last comment was not from a Ford employee.
The term luxury doesn't really matter - what matters is building cars people want to buy and if you can do that at $60K or more each that's even better.
Well, those of us who love engineering and cars know that not all cars are the same underneath. That quote sounds like something a marketing guy would make. That's the trouble with Lincoln . It has let the marketing guys make decisions instead of the engineering guys. Believe it or not ,but those of us who buy premium items are not interested in premium vehicles that share 95% of its content with a lesser priced vehicle. If any thing, the value would be to buy the lesser priced vehicle as the 5% in extras that one pays at least 6k extra for on a pseudo premium vehicle will eventually be available in the less costly vehicle.
Not many people know it, but Ford also had an irs designed for its 1966 Mustang. In fact. that irs design was purchased from Ford by an aftermarket customizer who installs it on vintage Mustangs of that era. They say that this irs can also be installed on the present Mustang.
Caddy invested a fortune in the ATS and CTS including the V variations. And from an engineering standpoint they're good - maybe really good. But the market for such a vehicle like the CTS-V is so small that it's difficult to justify for a brand trying to rebuild itself. It's great for bragging rights though.
Look at Lexus - the ES and RX are the biggest sellers and probably the least expensive due to platform sharing. Same for the SRX at Caddy. These are the products that generate the profits and foot traffic that allow you to do the one-offs and high performance vehicles.
That's what Lincoln appears to be doing - slow and methodically. Tear down, then rebuild the dealership experience. Use existing platforms to make small to midsized sedans and crossovers that are differentiated enough to justify the added cost (MKZ is about 80% there but still needs tweaks. MkC should hit the ground running).
Even IRS would have been a waste of money on the early Mustangs. IRS only matters under certain specific conditions and romping on the gas pedal isn't one of them.
Certainly some of the ultra high performance automakers sell on engineering, like Porsche and Ferrari, but even there, many drivers never take advantage of the cars' capabilities.
Aside from going into custom coachbuilding, I'm not sure how Lincoln could differentiate itself from a Cadillac or a Lexus, or compete against them.
And so did Caddys.
I bet your 95% number is low.
What are "luxury homes" exactly?
Turns out that in most cases it means wood floors instead of carpeting, polished nickel plumbing fixtures rather than brass, more rooms, more landscaping, etc.
But the drywall is still drywall, and concrete is still concrete--it's just more of everything and better quality items tacked onto what is essentially a tract home made all-fancy.
Now if this "luxury home" had unique construction, plaster walls, exotic wood trim throughout, leaded glass, state of the art solar power and a creek running through the living room---well then, that's more like actual "luxury".
I'd say the true premium car (ie: not a platform mate) experience is differentiated more, they really aren't the same inside or "underneath". Maybe Ford needs something more exclusive to give Lincoln cred. Lexus doesn't gain cred from the ES, it just boosts profits by selling to realtors and oldsters.
Exactly. Which one pays the bills - cred or profits?
If you just want cred and technical respect then be prepared to spend a lot of money without much hope of short or medium term profits. (see Cadillac).
If you want to make profit then you go after the volume sellers that can be done with minimal investment and try to differentiate yourself with style or features or service.
Packard was having difficulties, and the mid-priced Clipper models diluted its luxury status. Imperials were always low volume, and were never a threat to Lincoln's status as America's second best selling luxury brand, except for 1957, maybe. Some may have seen the Buick Roadmasters and Electras as competitors to the Cadillac 62 Series, or whatever the entry level Cadillac was called, but in GM's carefully calibrated line-up, even the most luxurious Buicks didn't carry quite the prestige of Cadillacs. Some people who could well afford a Cadillac chose to drive a Buick, just because they didn't want to appear showy, but that supports the notion that Buicks were below Cadillac, in terms of prestige.
It could be argued that Lincolns were close to Mercurys some years, just as one could say that Chryslers were close to DeSotos, until that brand's demise, and then close to Dodge Polaras/Monacos. There was overlap, for sure, because only GM could afford the degree of engine and transmission differentiations that distinguished Oldsmobiles from Buicks from Cadillacs. Still, in 1962 and 1963 Lincoln was the only Ford Motor Company brand to offer a modern short stroke, high compression V8 and Hydra-Matic.
I think that there was usually more differentiation between Lincoln and Mercury than between Chrysler/Imperial and Desoto/Dodge.
One reason for Lincoln's status as the #2 luxury marque may have been that until about the mid-'70s Mercedes and BMWs were a minor factor. In fact, in terms of imports, in the late '40s through the '50s, more or less, Jaguar sedans were probably the most popular luxury alternatives to the domestics. I don't have the numbers to compare Jaguar sales with Mercedes, but I think that's right. Regardless, European luxury cars were niche players. That's because American buyers equated size, boulevard rides, chrome and bordello interiors with luxury. The European cars were too small and understated, and rode too firmly for most North American buyers.
I agree with you regarding Lincoln's down hill trajectory since the '80s. The Navigator was an exception for a brief period.
That's a very good point and one that I'd forgotten about (that's one of the things I like about these forums - they stir up your memory once in awhile!). Might have actually even been true into the first part of the 60's. People forget that Jaguar sent a lot of sedans over here back then. In fact, I may be mistaken, but I think some went by "Mk" in their name similar to the famous Lincoln coupes.
As for Lincoln's, if I had to pick a postwar one, it would probably be a mid sixties model, or one of the 70's Mk coupes, but I readily admit that it's just my personal preferences.
I agree on Packard and think they just nose-dived right after WWII. I did like the looks of the 55/56 upscale coupes though (inside and outside).
Yeah, Jaguar sedans/saloons offered understated elegance, a ride/handling dynamic that was years ahead of Detroit's luxury entries, space efficiency,
good performance when they ran right, and much better fuel economy than the domestic counterparts. Straight line performance was competitive with the domestics, albeit with less torque, which required higher revs. I believe that most Jaguar sedans from the '40s and '50s were equipped with 4-speed manuals. Combined with the smooth revving OHC I-6, Jaguars delivered
competitive 0-60 times, and better acceleration at higher speeds than Cadillac and Lincoln.
Interesting tangent in this thread about Jaguar, too. If one reads car magazines from the early 50s, Jag is all over them - the classy styling and for-the-time remarkable engines won them some fans, even with British electrics. But MB would no doubt poach a few of those buyers by the time the 60s were in full swing. I don't know if they were competing with Lincoln or Caddy yet , rather they were the cars bought by engineers, professors, and similar. The 70s would see the flight to foreign prestige brands.
I think the average Cadillac owner was not used to being that meticulous, nor cared to be. After all, an expensive car like a Cadillac was not supposed to 'break'.
Unlike the Jaguar owner, who no doubt had the patience for the car, I think a typical 50s or 60s Cadillac owner would ditch a troublesome car in a red hot minute.
And what makes you think the additional investment Ford has been making in Lincoln lately is profitable? Lincoln sales are DOWN from 2012, not to mention down from years previous to that. They don't yet seem to get that in order to be something other than the American Acura, they have to do more than Acura does.
Like the expense or not, I imagine Cadillac has looked at the top three or four luxury brands and realized that their formulas all include niche models. Whether it makes common sense or not, it is a formula that has worked well for BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Lexus. Every last one makes a plethora of models, many of which overlap with one another, and some that sell so few copies it doesn't seem to make sense to market them. Yet they do. And they keep dominating the class. Those with fewer models (Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Lincoln) struggle.
Considering a new platform can cost several billion (and Caddy has at least 3 of those recently), it should be obvious how using a higher volume shared platform that costs a fraction of that would make it possible for Lincoln to be more profitable on half the sales volume.
Ford's deliberate approach isn't sexy but it's much more financially sound, especially considering GM's recent financial problems.
They understand they have to do more than Acura. But they're doing it on a long term plan within a budget - something impatient people can't understand. But what's the rush? Ford can afford to take its time to get Lincoln turned around.
Lincoln is looking at 10+ years to do it. What can the other luxury brands that are spending so darn much more money do in those 10 years? How in this competitive market will a currently laughable brand like Lincoln do with "rational" amounts of investment? Probably not so well, when so many brands are willing to invest so much more.
GM's recent financial troubles are behind them for the moment. They are, like Ford, profitable. This was a company slated to die, and it didn't. GM at least understands that a perceived premium brand or two will add tons more to the bottom line. The profits on a Cadillac are many times that on a Chevy. Of course this could change in an instant. The same profits could be true for Ford if they begin to understand the importance of Lincoln to their long-term bottom line.
Thankfully, Ford is doing some wonderful things with the Ford brand. But Lincoln could be a great help in this competitive market. So far there is no Lincoln plan to realistically return it to its former glory (and profits).
Caddy can build a better BMW but they won't win BMW buyers. Lincoln has a far better chance to win Lexus customers.
I know you don't agree so we'll just have to wait and see over the next 3 years or so. I predict Lincoln will catch caddy in sales in 4 years or less, and do it without breaking the bank.
You state that as if it were a fact. On what do you base it?
Bottom line, you have also been saying for years to give Lincoln three or four years. What makes you think that all of a sudden Lincoln will be competitive with Cadillac in another 3 years? Cadillac and all the others are not sitting still and won't. Lincoln seems to be one of the few, like Acura, that not does not have a ton of new models in the pipeline.
The MKC may help matters a bit, but we'll see. All the new MKZ has done is keep sales from sinking even further this year. After a month or so of good sales that were generated by its long delay, it is no longer tearing up the sales charts. The MKC will likely further depress MKX sales.
Yes, Lincoln knows that they could generate more MKS sales by troweling on incentives. But the car is already damaged goods in the market. Why push more of them with a lower price, and add even worse resale than it already has to the equation? Especially when Lincoln would likely generate no more revenue from such a plan.
I don't care for Cadillacs, but I recognize they have had some success with turning around a bad reputation and a worse line-up. They use their "three or four years" to generate iron that can appeal to both Lexus buyers (e.g., XTS, SRX) and enthusiasts. Of course it is costing a boatload of money. But they are getting somewhere. Lincoln has yet, after many years of half-hearted attempts, to stop its inexorable sales decline.
That's what they used to say about the '99-'03 and '04-'08 Acura TLs.
Lincoln managed to sell 8,192 units, allowing them to more or less stay even with the sales of August, 2012.
Lincoln continues to outsell Jaguar and Volvo, although Jaguar is finally having a pop in sales. They have gone from moving a few hundred in the US each month not so long ago to 1,723 this past month...a sales increase of over 67%. Their sales are no doubt being helped by the new more fuel efficient engines, eight speed transmissions, and the availability of AWD this year.
Since the changes are basically badging and nicer material on the seats, it makes no sense to bring it here. People on this board already abhor platform sharing - imagine the torch and pitchfork brigade that would come out should Ford simply change the badge and charge more for it.