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Comments
The point of this whole discussion is that Ford has neither profits, nor prophets.
Euphonium
If my sources are not lyin' to me, there will be no reprieve. The current Town Car, CV and GM all have the fuel tank positioned in a place that will not pass DOT standards for 08 - so rather than re-engineer the cars, they're putting those resources into new product.
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, (49CFR571.301), Title 49, Volume 5, Section 571.301, commonly referred to as FMVSS 301 allows for a complete change in crash standards, phased in, from 2004 for fuel tank safety. The law reads in part (section 5.5), that fuel tank spillage in a 81 km/h rear barrier crash: "shall not exceed 28 g(rams) from impact until the motion of the vehicle has ceased...and not to exceed a total of 148 g within a 5 minute period..." 100% of production must reach this goal no later than September 1, 2008, with manufacturers of less than 5,000 units getting a repreive through 2010. (The goal phased in at 40% for 2007, 70% 2008, and 100% 2009 model years). So its possible that 2008 could have been the last year for Town Car after a decade of production since this models inception in 1998.
The Department of Energy, under direction of Presidential Executive Order 12866, Regulatory Planning & Review, calculates that the cost per vehicle is $5.08 for the modifications to each fuel tank (but not the overall design change), and that 4 to 11 fatalities will be avoided in average crash rates. The other factors of 301 allow for different types and speeds of crashes, both frontal, side, and rear, all falling within section 5.5 of 571.301. Section 6.2b sets the dateline for compliance. The bill was enacted in 2003---the very moment when the plans for Town Car had to be made to make 2007-8 production.
Ergo, Ford Motor evidently would not spend the required capital investment to change the rear of the Town Car to absorb a 60mph impact with essentially minimal fuel spillage within 5 minutes after impact. Because to do so, they also would have had to spread the cost to Marquis and Crown Vic---those two cars Canadien made and thus not directly affected by the standard.
The efficacy of the standard is borne out by the fact that it only takes .02 millijoules of electricity (the same level of static electricity released when you grab a metal doorknob after walking across a carpeted floor) to ignite gasoline vapor. The probability of vapor ignition falls to less than .03 or 3% that it WON'T ignite with even modest fuel vapor concentration---meaning that there is a 96.7% chance that it will ignite. So the FMVSS301 standard is designed to prevent vapor ignition, especially considering the higher level of electronic componentry now installed in cars (and why you should not talk on a cell phone when fueling a car!) that can cause fuel vapor and fuel ignition in a crash. And the increasing range of electronic frequencies used by cell phones, computers, and other devices that can effect a fuel tank. (I am well acquainted with this terrible reality, having had two cars ignite, one caused by looking under the hood with a flash-lite at nite when I smelled gas, and another when an unseen cracked plug wire ignited gas vapor around a new carburetor---both owners and cars survived!) This is especially important considering many vehicles now locate the battery in the rear of the car. Fuel vapor ignition was also cause for the explosion of an empty 747 centre fuel tank over NYC according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration and the FAA, causing an explosion, crash, and terrible loss of life.
The standards are also being changed to coordinate with new hydrogen fuel tanks standards for duel fueled vehicles, and the new standards for personal water craft, snow-mobiles, and motorboats for 2008. The moment will come when cars are gasoline, ethanol, or hydrogen fueled and up to three crash resistant tanks must be onboard. The 301 Standard is designed to accomodate that eventual reality.
While the DOE's calculations are $5 a car, that is a cost basis spread out over millions of units, it does not take into account the change in engineering required to the rear end of a car to prevent the gas tank from being dramatically effected in a collision. This, then, is what Ford Motor addressed in 2003 whether to re-engineer the Town Car and leave the bulk of the chassis alone. Obviously, if you are going to change 30% of the design for one standard, it is not cost effective unless your sales are increasing. TC sales were decreasing at a minimal rate, and the car was then 6 years into its production. All the more reason why a similar car to Chrysler 300 should have been built...
...but Mr. Fields has indicated today (07-31-06, Automotive News) that the next generation FMC products, Lincoln included, will utilise 5-7 speed transmissions within new drivelines to reach historically higher fuel economy and performance numbers. Perhaps a 'Lincoln Stilletto' with a DOHC engine, and 7 speed AWD transmission driveline, and an aluminum bodyshell is in the offing---fast, furious, and fuel efficient...all in one package.
...While Japan now makes more cars outside Japan and more here than in their homeland, there might remain a glimmer of hope that in this change, Lincoln can capitolize on a new future. As Lincoln goes...so goes the nation.
DouglasR
(Sources: U.S. Government Printing Office, Department of Transportaion, Department of Energy, House Select Committe on Transportation, Automotive News; Fuel Vapor Ignition Probabilities Calculations, MIT, SAE)
According to the WSJ, Mr Leet will put all options on the table for the Ford Motor Board. The 50 members of the 'Way Forward' Planning committee will be bypassed, or consulted indirectly, in this latest revision to Ford's plan for a return to profitability in North America. Ford lost its #2 position in July to Toyota: 239,969 sales (16.1% share) to Toyo's 241,826 (16.2% share) of the market. Ford Motor having declined 14.3% over 2005, while Toyota gained 11.7% in sales---allowing for the switch in fortunes. Perhaps the cloisene in the Ford badge should be changed to red.
Will Ford merge with Fiat, a company planning to return to America with Alfa-Romeo? Will Mr. Leet put the "Cat" on the auction block---selling off Jaguar & Astons (whose fates are interlinked)---either to GM, Toyota, VWAG, or even Honda or Hyundai? Will the esteemed Mr. Leet put Ford Motor Credit up for sale, as Hertz was spun-off like Visteon before it? October 1, 2006 will tell, when the latest version of Ford Motor's plans for profitability: Way Forward II, is unveiled.
Mr. Fields will be forced to play second fiddle to Mr. Leet's new score. With PAG having lost money in Q2 vis a vis 2005, (losing $835 a car), Mr. Fields former bailiwick will now seem to act as an anchor around his ankles, and perhaps his fortunes---Mr. Leet will surely listen to what the North American Operations President has to say, but realise that Ford must return to its core business to beat the competition---leaving Mr. Fields in left field. The "King" will listen now to a new ear.
Like a rapier cutting through the winds of change, with Jaguar/Astons cut loose, Ford will have little choice but to lavish what cash it realised from Jaguar's sale on Lincoln---the pendulum coming back full swing. The success of Zephyr proving the brand is not dead (yet), and also must challenge the new advertising campaign at Cadillac and BMW for market position. Why any new Lincoln ought to be called "Stilletto"---for it must cut through the buyers minds and the market-place the garner attention and sales. What Mark S(tilletto) could surely stand for...all borrowing aluminum technology Ford has learned at Astons/Jaguar.
Perhaps Mr. Leet will see, that Lincoln might still be saved on the cusp of all that was learned across the pond, and made to challenge Audi and BMW, and edge out Lexus and Cadillac. The bells are tolling for Lincoln...but now its Mr. Leet's Line that will tell.
DouglasR
(Sources: WSJ, Automotive News, London Times)
Ford needs to pawn it's usless jewelry. Keep Volvo and Mazda and run like hell from the British Isles.
The continuing education of dealer techs would cost less than taking a big loss on selling the Jaguar assets.
QED. Mr. Leet has his work cut out for him, whilst being not too careful to step on Mr. Fields toes too harshly. "There are no new plans to divest our brands or invest in a new alliance" Ford spokesperson Thomas Hoyt commented in an interview by WSJ staffwriter Jeffrey McCracken (08-03-06). IN a lengthy article about the fate of Ford Motor it is made very clear that plans are indeed affoot to look at everything---all aspects of the business---and that nothing is sacrosanct. VWAG, BMW AG, and Toyota or Honda might well consider a phased buy-out of Jaguar/Astons. Leaving Lincoln alone to hold the challice at the high end of the market at Ford Motor.
Clearly, Mr. Horbury's job just got a lot tougher. And Mr. Callum at Jaguars is going to have to defend his turf from expropriation or sale---one can imagine him going with the ship, if it leaves the Blue Oval. The realities remain that car dealerships for Lexus now spend as much for a showroom building as Rolls-Royce spent to build their Goodwood factory. Lincoln would have a long way to go to come back to the top of the cake. Lincoln & Land Rover would have to paired at some dealerships if Jaguars were sold off. One can only imagine the heartburn of Jaguar dealers who invested heavily betting on 200K volumes from Jaguar/Astons only to see it crash from 114K sales last year in 2005 to less than 41K sales this year. PAG will not make a profit for Ford Motor this year per their revised earnings statement---having lost an addition $100Mn plus, owing to pension liabilities. Mr. Field's former bailiwick shrinking, and may prove to be his liability as well. Mr. Leet will not waste a moment in pointing out that fact to William C. Ford Jr.
Now we see that it would not be until 2010 that a new challenger from Lincoln could be made ready. Zephry/MKS will have to squeak by along with the median Town Car replacement from Chicago. It would be no surprise either that in failing to grasp a deal with GM, Mr. Ghosn plays the Ford Card and the next Lincoln is based from a Nissan!!!If Mr. Horbury either is faced with having to remake a Volvo or what-have-you into a Lincoln, he can't afford to make the mistake that Jaguars had: being too timid. Seems now that a radical solution is the only card left in the deck for Lincoln. Seems now that the fate of Lincoln truly is in the hands of the designers---not unlike the 1952 Model Year and 1961 all over again---why the Mark S seemingly was so important to Mr. Horbury to present to the public as soon as possible.
DouglasR
(Sources: WSJ, Ford Motor Company, Rolls-Royce MotorCars Ltd, Automtive News, Edmunds Online, Car Design News)
Why anyone ever thought Bill Ford was the best choice after dumping Jac Nasser is beyond me. And all the changes made since 2000 only confirm that previous management was on a more rational course than the unimaginative bores in management and on the board now.
One would surmise that the Firestone Tyre disaster tilted public opinion against Ford, because they did not own up to their engineering failure and passed some of the blame to Firestone. Both parties were at fault. People would not subsequently give them first choice as a result, and they have lost market share at an alarming rate since then.
One can't blame the Ford Family for wanting one of their own in the CEO's seat after the retirement of the very able Alex Troutman. Today, it is easy for those in the armchairs to think that Edsel II should have taken the reigns, rather than William C. But William Sr. pulled sway, and he could not help but put his son in the driver seat. We can't blame Mr. William Clay Ford Sr. for that---he would be less honorable for anything less than supporting his son. But that WCF Jr. has had bad council, advice, and luck, has been borne out by events.
And now the whole fate of Ford Motor is now tied to Lincoln, and there can be no doubt about that. Whether Jaguar stays or goes plays a great weight upon what happens at Lincoln. It is only too bad that no champion other than MR. Horbury exists now for Lincoln.
Mr. Leet may never have had any experience with Lincoln, nor any of the other storied cars from Ford Motor, having been in London for 18 years. But now men who have no feality to the marque have its fate in their hands, and a great part of their history. Great men build great designs, whether they be cars, buildings, aero-craft, or what-have-you. And that is what Ford Motor needs now. Just a few Great Men.
DouglasR
Ian Callum needs 18 months before the new small Jaguar is announced: pushing Jaguar into the direction that BMW has already gone, and in-point-of-fact, where Rolls-Royce hasn't failed to tread: avant-guard and daring style evoqative of both the a new future while heeding the past---all without being dowdy. Dowdiness is what has killed Jaguar. They might drive fabulous, and they do, but in 2001/2 when the first impact of the Ford Motor investment was being felt, they lacked verve. That is what Mr. Callum, and for that part Mr. Horbury, must put back into Jaguar and Lincoln.
Where the design and performance of the vehicle crosses the rational bounds and demands purchase. For that one needs, to paraphrase Mr. Lutz, I would call it: "Gutz" and Daring-do. The looks must get the driver past the threshold of the forecourt, and the baying and swaying of the salespeople, where the performance yeilds the expected surprise. For Jaguar it is one thing, but for Lincoln: it would be hard road to get previous BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus drivers to even look at a Lincoln.
Bringing in a finance guy will not solve Ford's problems, any more than Roger Smith helped GM. Jaguar's long term designs are locked in for years, so anyone buying the brand would have to use Ford components until their own change-over (much like Rolls-Royce and Bentley using BMW parts between 1998-2003 while owned by VWAG). The knowledge gained with aluminum technology could be transfered to Lincoln, among many other points. The hard work to revitalise Jaguar would not be lost if re-invested in Lincoln.
MKS would have to be re-engineered into a crash "Stilletto" program. Light-weight bodyshells, powerful engines, good weight balance, extreme handling envelopes beyond what Lincoln drivers have known. Brawn behind the muscle, coupled with some taut styling might do the trick. Mark S, ergo has not gone far enough if that be the solution. So that a new Lincoln would blow the doors off the 300 & V Series Cadillacs. If Lincoln could beat them at their own game, then there might be light at the end of the narrowing tunnel. Horbury must put the punch back into Lincoln.
It will take the Gutz to do it: make a Lincoln worth lusting after. Ford Motor has very little to lose in such a strategy...with Toyota passing Ford even for one month in America means that time is beginning to run out. Toyota sold two cars in America in 1958 at the same time the '61 was being planned. Lexus has not been around that long vis a vis Lincoln, some Lexus dealers are spending $75Mn on showrooms, while Lincoln dealers languish, and Ford's fortunes seemingly to plummet.
BMW AG will be high-lighting its designs and new award winning Leipzig factory in their latest advertisement campaign: pointing up the fact that Lincoln will not have its own state-of-the-art factory after Wixom closes. The stakes, however, now so high, that only the product will save Lincoln. Any new Mark S will have to be twice, if not three times as good as the competition. Messrs. Ford & Fields, Leet & Horbury will have to make us "love" our Lincolns again!
DouglasR
(Sources: FT; Ford Motor Company; Toyota Motor Corporation)
Rocky
Rocky
I just spent Saturday at the big Antique Automobile Club of America (AACA) meet in Macungie, Pa. On the showfield were a pristine 1963 Lincoln Continental sedan and two 1969 Continental Mark IIIs (one clean, the other a little worn).
Those majestic beauties had the "wow" factor when new, and they still have it today. Lincoln's new offerings need to recapture the glory and sheer presence of those cars if it wants to make headway against Cadillac and Lexus. Sorry, the MKZ and MKS just don't cut the mustard, however nice they may be.
They both strike me as thoroughly acceptable, competent cars that will quickly get lost in a brutally competitive market.
Price difference is about $20,000 for one.
The Town Car is big and cavernous. The XJ-8 is a little tight unless you get the L version, or Vandan Plas, even MORE money.
The Town Car is extremely dependable, virtually no repair needs, and if it does, the repairs are cheap. The XJ-8 is not as reliable, and repairs are a king's ransom to do.
The Town Car is traditional body on frame construction, tough as nails, can be driven over curbs without damage. The XJ is not. Plus, the XJ has an aluminum body, which is difficult to repair if wrecked, and hard to find a body shop who does Aluminum AND much more expensive.
There is no comparison between the two, have you ever seen a Jag Limo? Didn't think so. They are two completely different types of cars, two completely different types of customers.
Which is why I considered Jag, but bought the Lexus. More comparable to the Town Car.
Rocky
Rocky
"Or is it a 7 year old Oldsmobile Aurora, or maybe a Nissan Maxima or it could an Acura from a few years ago.. yawn"
I guess "bold moves" is defined as boldly just copying everyone else's ideas.
Rocky
P.S. I don't see at all the Olds Aurora styling. I do see the Acura-ish styling though.
http://media.ford.com/products/press_article_display.cfm?article_id=22294&vehicl- e_id=1372&make_id=93&CFID=2790640&CFTOKEN=16ac17facf268b1e-E6C44F61-1185-6933-5D- 3721EBC0368018&jsessionid=58306e78e055$9F$80$C
Just some previews of Lincolns, new found technology and engineering.
Rocky
DouglasR
(Sources: FT, Automotive News, Edmunds Online
The expensive XJ re-do was doomed by the conservative styling. The T sedan could have made it if sales projections (and the price tag) had been at all realistic prior to its launch. Exchange rates of course do not help, but other European companies have been able to ride it out very well.
Now Jaguar has stunning proposals for both the S and XJ sedans. It would be a shame if Ford gave up now, after belatedly learning their lesson about what a Jaguar should be.
Hmmm, from what I've read it's actually 'MK S'
IMHO, the MK S styling is not timid at all. It's actually a good looking vehicle, tho the rear end should be restyled. But why should anyone desire an S80 in a somewhat different body, especially knowing that FOrd will dumb-down some of the safety features of the S80 in the Lincoln? (I have read some info that affirms that Ford is arguing for lower safety standards (in particular roof strengths) than Volvo builds their cars to.
But what may be affecting Ford even more now was Nasser's PURGE of "the sea of white faces" he so disliked at company meetings. Yes, that weas the ticket, Jac, get rid of those evil white guys. Prelude to "The Way Forward."?
Also, to the previous post: the MKS (pronounced Em Kay Ess) is not bold. It is timid. That isn't saying it isn't good looking or attractive. But as attractive as it may be, it is no standout, and that is what Lincoln needs. The Volvo S80 is attractive too, but it is not a head turner. I think that's a mistake too, given Volvo was the great PAG hope, and now it is stumbling like the rest of the PAG brands. It's doubly sad because all of them have good products to market. None of them are volume brands though. Aston, Jaguar, and Land Rover had to claw back up from worse than dismal sales. The amount of dollars spent to re-vamp thses very expensive lines has been phenomenally high. Meanwhile, Lincoln and Mercury have been dying on the vine.
I cannot imagine how the Bill Ford cabal didn't seem to know it is all about product, not hype or advertising or spin. Look at Toyota. Even at the top of the sales game, they never stop frequent revisions, and introduction of a plethora of new products. Occasionally, something doesn't hit for them, but they always have more products waiting in the wings.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how quickly hot new products age in this marketplace. Maybe Ford sees it now, but they have had 10 years now of market attrition and only now are they (maybe) getting it.
Rocky
P.S.
Looks like my MKS, is going to be awesome. :shades:
I fail to see why this drawing excites any more interest that the recent photos of the actual prototype did? U can't see the front or the rear, only a stylized profile, which, BTW, looks almost identical to the prototype as far as I can see. What's different that u like so much?
I would still prefer more of a Continental concept look, but Lincoln doesn't give a rat's behind what I would like. Given they are going to issue the MKS, come heck or Hiawatha, then I hope they at least "sleeken" it a bit. The drawing, even though it reflects exactly the same bits of styling as the concept car, handles the rear doors and roofline more gracefully. The front overhang looks tidier too. So, give us that, if you have to give us the MKS. Include the innovative headlight system. Throw in heated/cooled cupholders along with the capless gas filler. Make sure it has at least 320 hp and decent mileage for a V8. (Mileage to brag about is unlikely, given that AWD will add weight over a similarly-sized RWD.)
Ford suffers from an excess of premium brands right now. If Jaguar and Land Rover are sold, Lincoln could become the mainstream Ford luxury name again.
Aston Martin can roll along at the very top of the market as an image car.
Rocky
Bez has literally driven Astons to success, under Ford Motor tutalege come back with exciting and superb driving and handling cars, also having built 10,000 Astons since 1987, and now selling roughly 5,000 cars per annum. The new factory at Gaydon representing state-of-the-art technology in assembly, matching the quality of the engineering behind the cars. The DBSR9 racers using a 550Bhp/457lbs/ft V12 engine, carbon fibre and polycarbonite body materials for light-weight. The Nurburgring Vantage V8 was honed for three years, Chris Porritt, Vehicle Engineering Manager had no trougle convinving Dr. Bez to race: "Sure, sure, I will drive..." The Astons CEO replied. Astons has a backlog of orders for the Vantage/DB9.
Much of Astons development costs were shared with Jaguar. While Jaguar could be sold off...Astons provides a possibility for the new Mark S: cut it down to two doors and go racing! A Vantage V8 motor might fit very nicely, or perhaps even a Mustang derivative. It would make, even in four-door guise, and excellent Nascar platform. Under Dr. Bez, Astons has hit home run after home run showing 'how-its-done', and Lincoln needs to follow that experience.
I saw the Mark S at the D.C. Auto show...painted as it had been in 1970's dual tone green made the car look less imposing. The interior was a marginal, and the instrument panel was, well, awful. That did not stop a man in his 60's from asking: "Can I buy one..." The disappointment in his face when told that he had to wait was astounding, he left the Lincoln stand immediately. Despite my reservations, most of the crowd liked the car, and I came back on a busier day to see---the blue Town Car relegated in a back corner of their show---the Mark S was still a crowd pleaser.
The show car was fairly narrow in width at the rear---if they widen the production version, or give it the impression as such, especially at the rear, it might take on the same aspect as the Astons...making the lines converge at the front and increase the perception of speed. Right colors, wheels, and engine options (not a 315Bhp motor as top or sole offering), and very definitely extreme interior quality and many people might take the car seriously. A car that goes as well as shows.
It becomes clear, given PAG losses at $805 per vehicle sold this year, Ford Motor's restatement of its earnings for the first half of the year, that their simply isn't time to build a new Factory for Lincoln, much as I think that is desperately needed: if it must be Mark S, then they have to go all the way---two or three steps beyond public expectations. Giving it the "Gotta-have-it" factor. Come January the production version will be unveiled. It has to draw crowds---even a third as much as Challenger/Camaro would be a huge success. Giving the racing edge, the urge to put it on the track wouldn't hurt either. It's one more reason why Mr. Fields has put the emphasis on Lincoln in recent statements.
Elsewhere, when I mentioned Town Car to a fellow enthusiast and owner of expensive cars all he said was: "I rent them, when I am out of town, but hope my friends don't accidentally see me..." Driving While Renting, DWR, is what Town Car is perceived as good for...livery/txi services may love it, provide a baseline of customers, but the public perception as a result has killed the car. Why Mr. Horbury and Fields summon the desire and will to change that perception with respect to Lincoln. That's the new line...
Will Mr. Leet convince Bill Ford to sell off Jaguar/Astons/Land Rover? No, simply because Astons and Land Rover are succeeding, and the new S type Jaguar (also based on shared Lincoln platform) is just around the corner---Mr. Ford & Fields will want to give it one more time at bat. Freshen the XJ styling at it might sell again. The XK sales are up 90.1% over its predecessor for July and 64.8% for the year at 1,608 cars sold. It's no mistake that both Jaguar and Lincoln new cars are "S" typed. A new Jaguar S, like Lincoln, will put some bite back into the big cat. The X: expendible, and that whole line must go---that's where the well of the red ink is.
A sharper image of the Mark S, and the new line might take Lincoln on roads here-to-fore never travelled, by drivers that never considered a Lincoln before. Just as Astons is using a mule disguised as a Jaguar to test the production Rapide...Lincoln could do the same for S. Now the S has to stand for "Speed." To accomplish that they could borrow from the DBSR9 program, using aluminum, carbon-fibre, and other light-weight materials for construction to make the cars faster, and even marginal use of such materials would act a draw for many buyers, who are both desiring of speed and environmentally sound designs. All the knowledge gained at Gaydon and Castle Bromwich could be used for Lincoln---parcing the billions spent back to Lincoln. The Mark S production varient has to make the customer say the same thing with respect to purchase as when Dr. Bez was asked to go racing: "Sure, sure I will..."
DouglasR
PS: And the S could also stand for Sebring, why not flog them there? If the Mark S chassis was really good they could do what Astons have done, hire ProDrive and bring out racing indepently sponsored Lincolns under the Blue Oval. Astons is biting the back of Bentley...Cadillac books time at Nurburgring, so should Lincoln in order to kick Lexus. Race Lincolns? Far fetched, dreaming? For Lincoln, it's midnight. There's not a moment to lose.
Sources: Aston Martin Ltd., Car Magazine, September 2006, WSJ, FT, Edmunds INside Line, Automotive News)
"Not-so-good news is that the Lincoln MKS concept will become a production car for the 2008 model year. The uninspired near-luxury car, which manages to incorporate every current design cliche out there in its flanks, will continue to send Lincoln into the depths of mediocrity. They just don't get it in Dearborn when it comes to Lincoln - and they'll never get it, apparently."
Source www.autoextremist.com
A single company can't support the investment 4 or 5 premium brands require. Cadillac has come a long way to recovery over the last 7 years. One big reason: GM's premium class development money is concentrated on one brand.
Would you recommend buying Ford stock after they sell Jaguar?
Minimum needed for Lincoln to be a serious player: a new Town Car (modern 1961 design), an LS, a top-line SUV, a coupe (a la Mark series) with companion convertible and an SL/XLR/XK type roadster.
Sport versions of the above to compete with the 'V' series at Cadillac would be nice also.
You is dreamin my friend.
Will u settle for a Pickup truck, 2 sedans (no Town car or LS), 2 SUVs and a minivan? Cause that's what you're gonna get.
'V'series competitors? HAHAHAHAHA We LS owners and fans have been asking for that for 7 years. What we got instead was the LS cancelled.