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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "(like Nissan did with the Murano and the Infiniti FX, which even though they share architecture look nothing alike and appeal to different people). "

    Interestingly, the Murano and FX do NOT share the same architecture. I got burned on this same thing awhile back.

    The Murano is a FWD vehicle, but Infiniti wisely made the FX a RWD vehicle. I'm not sure what if any N/I vehicles share the platforms, but there you have it - the cheap entry level one is FWD and the expensive serious machine is RWD. As it oughtta be. Either can be optioned to AWD.

    All that said, I think these vehicles DO look a lot alike and I was surprised to learn the underpinnings were different. They both resemble in shape the AMC Pacer, which I think was a better looking car than either the Murano or the FX. (I guess I better put on my flame-proof suit). I don't like either of the Nissan/Infinit crossovers. Just MHO.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    In the interest of truth:

    I said "I read that the Lincoln box was cancelled."

    Now I have read that is not true, that it has been scheduled to be built in Oakville, not Chicago as previously planned.

    Obviously, I don't know which is true. I do however think it may be true that Lincoln will have a real hard time selling a box on wheels to former minivan owners (the target market for the Fairlane.) After all, how many blue hairs drive a minivan in the first place?
  • Yes, I should have known that. Infiniti uses RWD now. Those two don't look alike. The FX has exaggerated wheels, small cab and a sort of video game war vehicle look. Slightly menacing.

    The Murano is not menacing at all. It it more along the looks of the Subaru Tribeca, the Hyundai Veracruz, the Acura something-something. But I digress.

    Please, Lincoln, DON'T build a Ford box on wheels. It may do well for Ford (anything will do better than their stupid minvan effort), but would further cheapen Lincoln.

    However, if they can give it some classic Lincoln DNA and flare, well then maybe. The MKX, in addition to being nothing but the Ford with a different trim package (heck, the same fenders front and back will bolt on either one), is also kinda wussy looking. If they can do the box on wheels with more than just changing the grill and tail lights, AND give it a dose of butch (like the FX), it might do Lincoln well. IMHO
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Just because Lincoln doesn't build cars that YOU guys want to drive they're crap. Fine. They're crap. Get over it.

    Lincoln was neglected to the brink of death. Absolutely no argument there. Given where they're at, it makes sense to share platforms (these are NOT rebadges so don't go there). Lincoln does not have a reputation that allows it to compete with BMW, Mercedes or the more expensive Caddys. They need a RWD platform for a flaship that doesn't exist today.

    In the meantime, the dealers need cars they can sell and Ford needs profits. The MKZ, MKS, MKX and other vehicles will be profitable. And those profits will allow Lincoln to get back to where it used to be and start competing.

    I'm not disagreeing with that you guys want for Lincoln - I just don't think it's realistic to expect them to get there tomorrow and the steps they are taking in the meantime as stop gaps are adequate if not exciting.

    If you disagree, then tell us specifically what you would do if you were in charge of Lincoln.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    OK, thought you'd never ask: If I were given Lincoln to fix, and the money I needed to do it, a free hand, and no Ford decendants to fight, this is what I'd do;

    Keep the Town Car until the new Town Car can be made - in the meantime, give the current Town Car, which isn't a bad handling car at all, a new Interior, that resembles the one in the Navigator, only MORE luxurious. This would be the Signature model - the Executive could remain as is for Livery sales, limos, and cheapskates.

    A New Town car could be built on the Jaguar XJ platform, RWD, large and handling great. It should have a hot engine in it that'll move it. The 300hp 4.6L would do. It needs to look like a Lincoln, maybe resemble the 61 Continental. It again must have that Navigator interior in it, or something equally nice. And leather that is soft and thick like the Lexus has. Not that stuff that feels like vinyl they use now.

    When it comes out, retire the Panther.

    The LS should be revived and updated pretty much as it is, but update the interior, give it lots of options and standard equipment. That car is damn near perfect as it is, just needs to be updated in style all around. If the current engine is too expensive, it could have a powerful 6 in it, like the new 3.5L, but a balance shaft needs to go in it to smooth it out, and make it a Lincoln. The V-8 option could be the 4.6L as in the Town Car. Must remain RWD. Oh, and lets re-name it the Continental, ok?

    All Lincolns must remain RWD, except the Zephyr, which could lumber on as an entry level Lincoln, pretty much as is, with a better engine.

    Then, we need a small pocket rocket. Something you can get a 6 speed manual in, with a supercharged 4 cyl in it. Something fast, reasonably priced for a Lincoln, RWD of course, and very cute.

    The Navigator needs the Hurricane engine at least as an option, and a better reskin, if they can't redesign the whole truck. However, the 78 F-150 guage cluster has to go. All Lincolns will have the electroluminescent guages in them, as glitzy and pretty with colors as possible...

    The MKX will be renamed the Aviator again, and be the smaller crossover utility vehicle.

    The truck - will be renamed the Navigator LT, and look like one as much as possible.

    So, the Heritage model names return, the mission for each is clearly defined, and with hallmark features for Lincoln like RWD, power, refinement, style and Lincoln DNA in each, will attract customers. If not, I'm fired. But the Brand needs 10 years of commitment to see it through. Consistency is the most valuable staple that Mercedes, BMW Lexus and Toyota have going for them, and the missing ingredient at Lincoln and Ford. Fits and starts will not work - the brand has to define itself, and then continually improve. :shades:
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,252
    how many versions are there of the camry platform?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Camry platform is the mother to:

    The Avalon
    The Lexus ES 330
    The Lexus RX 330
    The Sienna Minivan

    Why do you ask?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    And BTW, Rock, looks like u got a little more time to decide on the MKS as your next car: "Horbury said ... the brand's transformation will be complete when its new flagship, the MKS, goes into production in 2009." Going into production in 2009 means it's a 2010 model. And one thing I learned from my old man is "don't buy the first model year of a new car." So 2011 is it, Rock. Whatcha gonna drive til then? A (Bentley) Continental?

    I probably won't wait until 2009' heyjewel, but then again you never know with me. ;) I disagree with your "old man's" thinking and believe it's more a thing of the past to not buy the first year. I've always been a strong believer of buying the latest and greatest to be ahead of the residual curve. I've always found it better on GM products when using my discount to buy the latest product because I could trade in/sell my vehicle anytime without losing my butt. ;)

    The MKZ is getting over 300 hp in 2 years. I'm not writing off Lincoln, like you yet. They got the technology to compete and they are not as over-priced as Caddy's and I love Cadillac's. However Cadillacs are way over priced. The STS should be $56K loaded w/ AWD. The Escalade should top out at $60K w/ 22's Anyways Lincoln, IMHO will give the domestics and imports a run with their new line-up and won't fall apart like some posters predict. :P

    Rocky
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I've also thought about Lincoln sharing platforms with Jag but there is one problem (other than the high cost) - the big Ford V8s won't fit. The biggest engine that Jag uses is the 4.2L AJ-V8, just like the LS and Tbird only with a longer stroke. This is part of what killed the LS - can't use the cheaper, larger corporate V8s.

    That's why they need a new RWD platform that's similar to the DEW98 but cheaper than the current Jag DEW variant and able to handle the modular V8s.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The MKS was originally scheduled for fall 2007 as a 2008 model but was moved back to spring 2008 as a 2009 model (not 2009 as a 2010 model). It's late enough as is - no need to make it even later.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    That's the same thing I read. However some people are so negative about the nice products coming out of Lincoln, they will find fault with them no matter what. The only fault the MKZ has is it's power. It needs 320+ hp. to go along with it's AWD. I read within 2 years they will have a new engine for it 3.7 V-6? and that could make it a class leader. The current MKZ, has the styling, interior, technology, right now to be a leader. However the engine quite isn't good enough and that's ashme. Perhaps Ford should of used a supercharger to get the much needed power to have a class winner. If it had the power, I would probably be buying/leasing one right now. :sick:

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I disagree with your "old man's" thinking and believe it's more a thing of the past to not buy the first year.

    Well, I do and I don't. I have purchased the first year out redesigned Mercury Mountaineer, and it wasn't bad. The 04 though, is decidedly better except, it's the 04 that has needed 3 transmission rebuilds - the first model year out 02 did not need any.

    I also bought the first new Navigator in 03, and as much as people like to say it's really the 97 still, I couldn't find any thing but the motor carried over from 02. Again, it wasn't bad, but it had little things that need adjustment shall we say.

    Now, conversely, with amazement I read how bad the new Camrys are this year, with paper mache transmissions, and Toyota not wanting to step up and fix them! That freaks me out, because the two things you could always count on with Toyota, was the bland styling, and bullet proof reliability. No more, it seems, don't buy the 07 Camry, wait for the 08. Honda had this problem in 04 with their transaxles as well. The Japanese are less anxious to fix these problems also - it's just hard for them to believe.

    Then there is Nissan. If you do a little research, you'll see that Nissan has problems with their 3.5L engine going bad around 70,000 miles, transmissions failing about the same time, and lots and lots of other quality problems across the line. Yes, Renault has made their mark and turned Nissan into a Peugeot.

    Right now, even I'd buy a first year Lincoln or Caddy over a first year Toyota, and I'm steering clear completely of Nissan right now.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Why not just buy the Mazda6 or Montego/Fusion? It is not like this Lincoln is a world class RWD car, now is it? Ford has a 300HP car ready to go -- it is called the Mustang. In the Lincoln line, the LS comes the closest to world class performance with the V8. The McDonald's / MKZ is no bargain really. Don't super size menu, just go for the standard Mazda or Montego order, same thing.
    -Loren
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Nvbanker's original post on subject sounds like a good plan to me. I thought the concept Conti, Mark IX and Mark X were good designs. The Lincoln I remember had the big traditional RWD luxo car (TC), the FWD trimmer car (Conti), the personal luxury coupe (a proper Mark) and the SUV/CUV variants (Navigator / Aviator). I'd like to see that lineup eventually.

    Lincoln needs to incorporate some cutting edge tech into the TC, like bluetooth, adaptive cruise control, etc., while keeping the tech in the background. Tech should be there to serve, not overwhelm the driver, as in BMW's hated iDrive system. Invent or steal Lexus' auto park system. It's introducing technology like that which makes a luxury brand.

    I'd like to see some commonalty among styling cues, like either a waterfall grill or eggcrate grill across the board. I liked the chrome fender caps along the beltline, as in the concepts; it showed some brand DNA.

    All Lincolns will have the electroluminescent guages in them, as glitzy and pretty with colors as possible...

    Just not too many colors - that might look garish! ;)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "The MKS was originally scheduled for fall 2007 as a 2008 model but was moved back to spring 2008 as a 2009 model (not 2009 as a 2010 model). It's late enough as is - no need to make it even later."

    You should tell Horbury then because he said the MKS "goes into production" in 2009, which makes it a 2010 model or perhaps 2009 1/2.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "My biggest concern remains the ad campaign."

    Who saw the Patriots/Colts game yesterday? The MKZ was advertised several times during the second half. Kind of a silly ad, but not terrible and not offensive. The features of the car were not dwelt upon, more like a lifestyle commercial - guy actually works at home, but commutes anyway cause the Z is such fun to drive by driving in a circle in the AM and ending up back home. (gee, bit of a waste of gas?)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "I disagree with your "old man's" thinking and believe it's more a thing of the past to not buy the first year. I've always been a strong believer of buying the latest and greatest to be ahead of the residual curve"

    Whatever, Rocky. Belief can be a strong motivator. Don't bother asking folks who bought, say, a 2000 LS as opposed to a 2001. BTW, what's the "residual" curve? :>)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You should tell Horbury then because he said the MKS "goes into production" in 2009, which makes it a 2010 model or perhaps 2009 1/2.

    I don't think you can tell whether he meant calendar year 2009 or model year 2009. We'll just have to wait and see, but the plant seems to be gearing up for a 2008 product launch.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I bought a 2000 LS knowing it would have teething problems, and it did. But nothing serious.

    I bought the 2nd Fusion that my dealer received, also expecting teething problems. I've had it for over a year now without a single problem. Nothing. And I'm not the only one. Ford has finally figured out how to build vehicles with top notch quality. Maybe they need to start building everything in Mexico.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Finally - something we agree on!
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "Finally - something we agree on! "

    :>)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Please, find a political forum for bleating propaganda.
  • yankeryanker Member Posts: 156
    i THINK THE IDEA OF USING LETTERS TO SELL CARS IS D u m b Last year at the Time Warner building in NYC I saw a Lincoln Zephyr and liked it.. Classic name classic looks and far better than some others. But along with Cadillac and its silly DTS etc I no longer have any interest. MKZ what a stupid name
  • Oh for pity's sake! So you buy that particular 1-2 propaganda. Well, we all have some to share and some to buy, but most of us don't really know jack about any of it--beyond the piffel we get from talking heads, pundits and rabid talk show hosts. In all likelihood, nothing of any substance will change if Democrats gain more control. They have nothing really new to say. Republican or Democrat, the Iraq operation is doomed. Now, where is Ford taking Lincoln?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    OK, no more poly-ticks on here, but-

    I have seen and heard myself (on TV) the terrorists pleading for votes for democrats. Heck, 2 yers ago perhaps you'll remember bin Laden basically coming out in favor of Kerry righ tbefore the election.
    and
    the democrats have already said they will raise taxes. Bush eliminated the marriage penalty, they want to bring it back.
    It aint propaganda if it's true.

    Baaaah
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Don't worry - I predict the letters will be gone within 1 or 2 years at most. Even a Ford engineer that I know got confused and called the MKX the MKZ.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    At least the commercials I saw yesterday tell us the correct (this week) way to pronounce the names. The announcer called it the "Emm Kay Zee." Forget "Mark Z" which at least would've made sense from a heritage standpoint.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Gotta have more taxes to pay for more spending...

    GOP.com might be better for that.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    gregg_vw: Now, where is Ford taking Lincoln?

    Maybe Ford should take Lincoln to Iraq.

    Iraqis have been deprived of decent cars for so long that they might actually believe that the MKZ really is a luxury car.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The only problem is that the Dems are even worse. The only credible voices for fiscal restraint are Libertarians.
  • FTLOG, folks, let's NOT do this. The commercials are bad enough! Baaah!!! yourself. It is all perception. And what each of us attends to or doesn't.

    Let's attend to what Ford has done to Lincoln and whether or not it can be saved. You know...important stuff like that. ;)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,252
    don't forget the highlander, too.
    it doesn't seem to bother anyone the the camry is the basis for a lot of other vehicles.
    lincoln from a mazda chassis? i don't see the big deal as long as it works.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Does anyone know if Ford is advertising or selling in secondlife.com or any of the other metaverses? Toyota is in the market there, selling the Prius, and it seems it would be a good market for drawing attention to Lincoln from the younger buying crowd.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I'll gladly implement all of your suggestions into the new Lincoln line, dpt, especially the common grille theme, one or the other, I prefer the waterfall, but that is going to Mercury I believe. So eggcrate it may be. I agree on the Tech, completely, and just assumed it would include bluetooth, rear view camera, air conditioned seats, and park urself on the highline models.

    Good comments. You notice I stayed away from the big luxocoupe for now, the Mark IX or X. I liked the concepts too, but am not sure we can sell those in this market yet.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Grannie, do all fairy tales begin with "Once Upon a Time?"

    "No Darling, there is a whole series of fairy tales that begin with - "If elected I promise." :P
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Relating current events to the automotive industry is fine, but when posts become personally-directed, they get zapped.

    Take your political energy to the polls today and vote as you're motivated, but the spewing of rhetoric and flinging of accusations is best left for the political ads. Thanks.

    I am kirstie_h and I have approved this message

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  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    ROTFLMAO :D @ I am kirstie_h and I have approved this message

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    To help differentiate Lincolns from Fords and Mercurys, the division is going to get its own 3.7-liter version of the new 3.5-liter V6, which will debut in 2008 with the Cadillac STS-sized Lincoln MKS. That car, based on the Volvo-derived Ford Five Hundred platform, will not offer the Yamaha-built narrow-angle V8 seen in some Volvos, despite the engine's obvious suitability.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117436

    I'm rockylee and I agree that the Lincoln MKS, will be made in 2008 :P
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Since you sound so sure about something about which you have no facts whatsoever, can you explain the quote from your post 843 that said:

    "Horbury said future Lincolns will feature even more distinctive styling. He said the brand's transformation will be complete when its new flagship, the MKS, goes into production in 2009."

    Bud, I really think you need to switch to decaffinated.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I think the confusion is the MKS will be built in 2008, as a 2009 model. I agree with that and that's what I've been agreeing with this whole time. ;)

    I'm rockylee, and I approve of my post. :P
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I think the confusion comes from your end.

    You've chosen to believe some unknown writer for Edmunds rather than the guy who actually works for Lincoln.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    2 more senior execs have left Ford, according to the Detroit News:

    "Collins, 43, was executive director of marketing for the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands. He was a major force behind Ford's "Bold Moves" marketing campaign, as well as the just-launched "Lincoln Dreams" campaign."

    THis sounds like GOOD new to me that this guy is gone.

    "Ford Motor Co.'s director of strategic communications, who helped develop a political-style campaign to reshape the company's image, is leaving the automaker after 18 months on the job.

    Josh Gottheimer, 31, who previously served as a special assistant and speechwriter to President Clinton and other prominent Democrats"

    HoHo, good riddance to him too from my view.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I guess you and I have interpreted the article different. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    So I wonder what kind of cronies will replace them...someone who knows anything about cars? Doubtful.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    So the Lincoln MKS comes out as a redo of the Mercury Montego - whoopie! If it sells under $28K, then I suppose it is worth looking at. Other than being a Montego which worked out a the gym more, with a little sharper look to it, I see nothing to get too excited about. It is not like it is going to be the new BMW, or CTS, for that matter. My guess is that the LS with a V8 will out perform this car.
    -Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Loren, whatever :P The MKS will be the size of a STS, and will have as much if not more technology than a STS, and sell slightly higher than a loaded out CTS. What a deal right ? The Montego, is a nice car in it's price bracket but it's not in the same technology class as the MKS. I'm really surprised you pop-shoted the MKZ, and assumed you'd like that car. The MKZ, is light years ahead of the current CTS, especially on interior quality. I don't see how you can compare the two. :confuse: My point is Cadillac, along with Lexus, better watch their backs because Lincoln has been revitalized and is hungary to regain back market-share via better products, and cheaper prices. ;)

    Lincoln: Reach Higher :P

    Rocky

    P.S. You get a LS V8, and I'll take a new MKS with a Twin-Turbocharged 3.7 V-6 and place dinner on it. ;) :P
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Gottheimer helped create '180 Degrees in 180 Days' campaign to change company's image.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061106/AUTO01/611060313/1148- /AUTO01

    Rocky
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    I'd say that's good news. Their advertising can't get much worse.
  • Rocky, I know you just love Lincoln's latest efforts and that's fine. However, the MKZ is not light years ahead of the CTS. It is FWD and based on the Fusion. The CTS is RWD and based on itself. The CTS offers a choice of two 6's and a V8. Next year's version will rectify your well-taken interior complaints. Besides, as much as some like the MKZ interior, its cut lines and interior surfaces are not up to Lexus standards. It's a start, but Lincoln still needs to reach higher.

    The MKS will also suffer in comparison to the STS by being FWD-based AWD (so it will be nose heavy and porkier overall), have less tidy overhangs front and rear, and it will start off offering only one engine. Cadillac has many planned new models and updates, and has no intention of relinquishing market share to Lincoln this fast.

    Once Lincoln gets a RWD sedan with a V8, at least as an option, a truly new and dramatically styled Navigator with better mileage, a coupe and/or convertible somewhere in the line-up, and a more powerful and efficient MKX and MKZ, (both re-styled to look like a Lincoln and not something barely above badge engineering), they might recapture the crown. But all those things are many years away.

    Meanwhile, we should see their sales increase, although not dramaticall--at least until the MKS and Fairlane-derived (hopefully not a Ford clone like the MKX) vehicles are on board.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "I guess you and I have interpreted the article different.

    Rocky "

    Here's the only quote that refers to the MKS:

    "(Horbury) said the brand's transformation will be complete when its new flagship, the MKS, goes into production in 2009."

    I won't even ask how you interpreted that to mean 2008.

    Also, it's 'differentLY' when used as an adverb.

    Also, you'll no doubt be happy to know that I will no longer be responding to your posts as I have found it far too frustrating to try to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

    I hope Lincoln is happy reaching this new demographic. Sheesh.
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