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Comments
Why don´t you make a flushing on the oil and replaced that with a new and clean one.
Maybe is still posibble to have it running again?
Regards
Oscar
sounds like the gears are not where they should be, 1st gear.
Had transmission fluid flushed, cleaner and additives at dealer. They heard noise and indicate its bearings noisy when in reverse. recommend replace propellor shaft. In Canadian dollars its estimates as approx. $2000 for parts and labor plus tax installed.
I only hear it in reverse once and while. Could keep driving until its a real issue.
not very mechanical savy. Looking for advice if I plan on keeping car till I run it into ground is it worth replacing now? What is impact of waiting till it wears more. Is it going to cause other damage.
Also besides the tranfer case leak issues Sounds like both F & AWD have problems correct ?
Mine = FWD with tow package is at 59k miles and seems fine.
Thanks.
Prior to the somewhat "final" solution of using E-throttle, introduced with the RX330, to "protect the drive train" they seem to have come up with a interim solution that resulted in localized (most likely "local" to the gear type ATF pump) heating of the fluid. In order to alleviate at least some of the degradation of the ATF from overheating the external cooler was made "standard".
Thanks
But the newly restored engine POWER/TORQUE might.
So Toyota might be correct.
OUCH, that HURT...!!
Have you come up with anything???
It appears that as a result they have been overly cautious about the issue of more closely controlling ATF line pressure, ALL aspects of line pressure. The goal seems to be constantly keeping the line pressure as low as seeming possibly in order to reduce the ATF heating due to pressurization to the n'th degree.
So I find it not surprising that some of you are getting clutch "chatter", shuttering, once you reach roadspeeds that dictate the use of higher gears ratios. Higher gear ratios reduce the need for high line pressure so my guess would that Toyota, yet again, is cutting things just a tad too close.
That makes it all the harder for me to understand just why the solution Ford took for solving the exact same problem in the Edge transaxle design was not acceptable to Toyota.
They might replace one of the pressure controlling solenoids which may solve your problem until the engine/transaxle ECU completes the (re)learning process for the new solenoid and then begins to optimize FE again.
The engine/transaxle controlling ECU must get a "mind-wipe", go back to the factory default, rolling off the production line, parametric mapping, any time a new component of this class is installed.
It might be wise, worthwhile, to know which solenoid they replace that you can later do a mod, provide a biasing current, should the condition return.
But there are 1 or 2 functions that require "linear" displacement of the solenoid actuator plunger, line pressure control for instance. Eons ago it was considered that a simple electric solenoid could not be used in this manner. Then along came the idea, ability, to modulate the plunger position "linearly" via the use of PWM, Pulse Width Modulation, voltage duty cycle control of how far the actuator was to be deployed.
The next problem was, what was to be used as feedback to the controlling device to denote the actuators control position...?? A new off-the-shelf solenoid could be roughly "calibrated" insofar as voltage applied vs actuator movement/position and while that might be close enough for the factory default control mapping parameters it was not satisfactory for the fine position tuning control required once installed within the vehicle.
The answer was...The function being controlled. Clutch slip within the transaxle...?? Increase the line pressure via a slight increase in PWM voltage. You didn't need to calibrate the solenoid to exacting actuator position, that could be done "on-the-fly" as the vehicle is driven.
I believe the first use of this technique for automobile engine control was to control the idle air bypass valve. Two feedback sensors are used to do this, the upstream oxygen sensor an an engine RPM, timing sensor. The solenoid must be adjusted to the point of allowing just the right amount of air through the bypass port that the idle air/fuel mixture is correct in accordance with the upstream oxygen sensor(s) and the RPM remains at a steady 800RPM.
Disconnect the battery and the IAV control will default to the factory parametric PWM settings, but after a fairly brief period of time the ECU will have learned, pretty much exactly, what level of voltage is required to hold the solenoid in the correct "linear" position to satisfy the feedback parameters. Now it will go to that "setting" each and every time you start the engine.
Plug up the bypass port slightly with debris, oil wicked into the intake path from a K&N followed by dirt, the ECU will simply re-learn, again and again, over an over again, the level of PWM voltage to be used to "meter" the proper airflow.
Plug up the bypass port too much and the solenoid will not have enough range, you get a CEL. Clean the bypass port and over a period of time the ECU will have learned the new parameters. Disconnect the battery and that period of time will shorten.
What your service manager doesn't understand, "get", is that there are two categories of ECU learning/relearning. Yes, the engine/transaxle ECU will "watch" how fast you "normally" depress the gas pedal AND how fast you "normally" release it. The time it takes you to move your foot from the gas pedal to the brake is even important insofar as adapting to a specific driver's driving style.
But parameters of/in that category MUST be erased for each an every stop/start engine cycle.
But there are MANY other engine/transaxle control parameters that must be learned and/or continually relearned as you drive. Let's say the knock/ping sensor "sounds off" during acceleration (excluding engine lugging with a stick shift and/or ignition timing too early). The ECU must quickly adjust, enrich, the A/F mixture via EFI to abate the knock/ping. But now the engine will be operating below the factory design "standard" and the ECU will periodically run A/F mixture leaning, optimization trials, in case the engine is now being "fed" with the proper, premium, fuel.
Thanks
Again, just to be clear, I had my engine replaced and the car immediately starting bucking/jerking in the lower gears (like, within 5 miles of leaving the service center). This is appearing to be an issue related to the computer/electronics as a result of how the replacement engine is "talking" to the car/transmission.
Curious thing is that one would think that Toyota or the shop that replaced the engine would have experienced this before. That is: Engine replaced = car doesn't shift properly. But they are stumped.
They still have my car and are now talking to some other "expert." It has become a bit of a lab experiment, I think. I will tell you this...I have owned 10 cars in my lifetime and will NEVER buy another Toyota. If I had taken the time to read all the negative things on the Internet about how poor their customer service is, I wouldn't have bought the Highlander either. I think Consumer Reports must be getting bought off by Toyota.
That may mean, in effect, "jumping from the frying pan into the fire."
Is there, today, a "better" marque overall...??
Back to the dealer I guess. Have you had any luck getting yours fixed????
Will ring the dealer Monday and ask their opinion but if there's others out there with this issue, it'll add weight to my case
Did you dealer give you any ideas???
Its at the dealer today; waiting to hear back.
the service guy causually referred to this as 'normal' but back pedaled when I expressed my concern and stated this was unacceptable.
Now there is three of us in the past few days on this message board with the same
problem. Nice Toyota.
I just got a call from my Highlander Service Dept Rep:
According to him "They have heard of this before". And want to keep my car for a day to full look at this and 'nail it'" They are being very responsive, and will be providing me a loaner vehicle while they investigate.
More after they report back tomorrow...
If someone does get a verdict from Toyota please let us know, in particular where the problem lies, the cure and any relevant Technical Service Bulletin that Toyota produces
Step 1 will be to change the Transmission Fluid. And this may be done several times.
I'm no mechanic, so i have no intuitive sense for the the impact of this repeated flushing... Moisture in the lines?
OK, so, when I first came on this site and explained the issue I was told that it might have to do with low transmission fluid PRESSURE. This is because of the very very tight tolerances used and the computer programing that tells the transmission to produce X pressure for a given situation. Not enough pressure and you get clutch chatter.
Bottom line is that until Toyota faces up to the fact that they have a problem they are not going to do anything about it. What makes me mad is that who wants to keep going back to the dealership all the time for the same problem. Very time consuming and inconvenient. I bought a Toyota for the reliability. Who wants to be running back and forth to the dealerships service dept.
Do you have a lemon law in your state? We do in MN and I may use it. Meaning, if they can not fix the problem after 3 times I can give the car back. Not what I want to do because I like the vehicle otherwise.
I assume most of the "shuddering" complaints involve the V6 as I doubt that the I4 would even come close to delivering enough drive torque in 5th gear at 1500 RPM.
An ATF drain and refill might involve a new fluid formualtion supplied directly from the factory. While a firmware revision would be the most obvious and expeditous corrective action that would likely impact FE adversely and that brings the EPA into the decision process.
Thanks all.
finally got around to booking in my highlander with the dealer - only bought it two weeks ago. Of course they didn't have a clue, other than to suggest that the car is new with low miles (now 500) and that components need time to "bed-in" and computers need time to learn idle and shift patterns etc.
I'm not sure if I have exactly the same problem as you guys, but to be honest - unless I'm imagining it, the problem does appear to be getting better !!. Last night and today I drove it around and couldn't get it to mis-behave at all. Previously I could do it pretty much on demand - 30mph, 1300-1500rpm, 4th or 5th gear, light throttle, throw in some hill/incline and there would be a pattern of pulses/vibration, always the same frequency, about 5/second or thereabouts, even my wife noticed it. A slight prod on the throttle and revs rise and the problem goes away.
Could I reproduce it for the dealer? sods law applies and it wouldn't misbehave at all, I then took it for a long'ish drive and only once during the journey did I detect the faint patter of pulses, but it seemed to me to be much weaker and definately harder to reproduce now. Having said that it was dry today and previously it has been pissing it down for the last week - maybe that's a factor - I don't know, could be something to do with tires, grip, moisture in the air - dunno.
I'm not sure that I agree with the low pressure ATF pressure line theory for several reasons (I could be wrong of course and will hold my hand up if that's the case) 1) If the problem is a design problem and first started in '98 I cannot believe that Toyota would have ignored it for so long, given the rate they turn out new engines, technology, transmissions etc. they could have fixed this - if Ford could do it.... 2) Toyota use this engine/transmission (3.5V6/5sp auto) in so many vehicles - highlander, rav4, sienna, camry... as well as a load of Lexus products, that we would have heard about design problems in bigger numbers by now and toyota dealers would be aware of the solution even if there was no recall - if it was as simple as just using a different type of AT fluid, it would be simple to fix and they would issue a technical bulletin for dealers and we wouldn't be getting the problem with new cars 3) In my case the patter/vibration occurs only on a very light throttle, not usually the sort of conditions that cause an engine to struggle.
Personally (and I'm prepared to stand corrected on this by anyone who does come up with a definitive solution) is that it's down to computer learning, e.g. the computer controlling the transmission learning when to change to lower gears etc. This might well explain why I and the others here have only noticed it with low mileage '09 models.
Interestingly enough I noticed that shifting the tranny into sport mode does alter the shift points e.g. a slight tap on the throttle sees the transmission kick down more readily (don't think I'm imaginging this - am I?) which would kinda indicate that it's not the line pressure but the computer (???).
I would love to hear what happens when they change the tranny fluid - if it makes any difference - as usual - please keep us posted
They haven't, by my count there have been at least 4 attempts at fixing this problem.
Everyone knows, I hope, about the premature transaxle failures for the '99 and early '00 RX300's that were a direct result of the design flaw. With those models the ATF line pressure was kept as low as seemingly possible in order to extend the ATF pump efficiency and thereby the FE rating. That resulted in early failure of the transaxle clutches due to not having enough line pressure available in a timely fashion to accomplish two shifts, with the engine at idle or nearly so, in quick sucession.
For the late '00 and on RX300 series the "fix" seemingly involved keeping the line pressure elevated above what was previously ('99 & early '00) considered optimal. It appears that fix resulted in localized overheating of the ATF even though the towing parkage, external ATF cooler, was made "standard".
Even so the revised ATF drain and flush of every 15,000 miles was instituted. Justifiably so, it now seems.
With the introduction of the RX330 DBW was adopted for a myriad of reasons but primarily to "protect the drive train". Delay the onset of rising engine torque, REGARDLESS of gas pedal pressure, until the appropriate downshift could be fully completed.
Again, as we all should already know, that fix led to yet another symptom, somewhat hazardous symptom in ceratin situations. Re-acceleration downshift delay/hesitation of as much as 2 seconds.
Next (~'08..??) came the firmware revision "fix". Watch the driver's actions with/on the gas pedal in order to prevent an inappropriate upshift when/if a following downshift is easily predictable. A fast and quick release of gas pedal pressure would likely mean the driver's "real" intent is to coast down to a lower speed. Whereas a slow and easy release of pressure on the gas pedal would/might mean that the driver intents to simply begin cruising along at the current speed.
I bought an '09 Sport/AWD HL in June. I experienced the same shutters/vibrations that all of you have described. For me, they only showed their face while around 30-40 mph range (typically when on exit/entrance ramps, when first starting out on the road).
However, I now have just over 4,100 miles on it and do not experience them at all. I'm convinced that the parts have been broken in and worn to the viscosity of the transmission fluid. I haven't felt these problems for roughly 800-1000 miles.
I've kept reading on this topic and look forward to what others find out with the dealer, and I finally created an account so that I could give other owners the peace of mind that it may actually subside. Like a couple others have said, everything is so perfect and smooth on the HL that you really notice something like this.
-Steve
Oh and also, my HL takes a few seconds to downshift while decelerating and it "releases" like it's shifting into neutral and freewheeling when approaching a stop light. Does anyone else notice/experience this? It's not dangerous, just not smooth.
You're describing the coastdown fuel technique used to extend FE.
During throttle closed coastdowns the fuel is cut completely and the transaxle is downshifted in accordance with decaying roadspeed in order to prevent an engine stall. Then at a certain point ~15-10mph, fuel flow MUST be restored and the transaxle is upshifted accordingly. The driver then "feels" a slight surge forward. Feels as if the brakes were slightly released if they are being used.
Your HL will not subsequently downshift into first gear unless/until you come to a full and complete stop or decide to accelerate again.
With the sales rep in the car, we left the dealership and started down a smooth road. It felt somewhat like there was a tire out of balance, or possibly a flat stop on a tire. Within a few miles, that went away.
Just before getting back to the dealer, we were running in the 50 mph range and started up a medium grade hill. Then the "Skipping" or vibration started. It felt like the torque converter was locking and unlocking 2-3 times a second. OR a spark plug had stopped firing and the engine was skipping. It went away as soon as we topped the hill and I let off the throttle a bit.
Sales rep said she had never felt that before.
Got out of the Highlander and into a new '09 FWD RAV4 V6 Sport. It was very smooth the entire test drive, over the same roads. This was a loaded up $30K car.
FWIW the Highlander's "S" shifter indicator showed "5". But I was driving in "D".
I was also driving in "D" on the RAV4.
Wondering if the fact that the Highlander having the "Shiftable" transmission could be a problem?
Kip
-Steve
My mistake was not test driving the car we bought. It is my wife's vehicle. She did not notice any problem during her test drive of a demo. Mostly smooth roads without inclines. We purchased a different one then the one she test drove. Waited for the right color to come in with Leather. Never test drove it before taking delivery. Noticed the problem the next day and have been experiencing it since.
37k vehicle. Nice
As for the downshift issue. My 03 Honda Pilot did the exact same thing for the 7 years we owned it. Kinda like it puts on the brakes when your already braking when slowing down to stop on a decline. My Honda did this from day one until we traded it for our Highlander. Never had any issues with the transmission. It's just how there programmed I guess.
Actually when I feel that little "Extra" brake force, the tranny also shifts down a gear. This down shift is probably accounting for most of the "EXTRA BRAKING" feel.
Wanted to trade the Pilot for a New Highlander because of the Highlanders smaller size and better performance than the new Pilots. However the tranny thing gives me pause.
Might be better to wait until the gremlin has been found!
Kip
I have bought many cars from new in my time, the last one being a Mazda 3GT 2.3 with a stick shift and I remember for the first couple of months how poorly is ran, flat spots at certain low revs, the fact that it wouldn't pull cleanly with less than 2000 rpm in top gear etc, but all these problem disappeared as I put a few thousand miles on the clock, it now pulls cleanly well below 1500 rpm in top. I think as the engine loosens up it develops more torque and power at lower revs and this certainly helps it pull more cleanly, the same could be true of the HL as it loosens up - let's hope so
I will continue to follow this thread and contribute as necessary