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Volkswagen Passat Sludge Issues
pat
Member Posts: 10,421
Talk about Passat sludge issues here.
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I've called VWoA and was told it is not under warranty because I cannot prove I had the oil changed EVERY 5k miles. Of course, the dealership will not help me at all!
Has this happened to anyone and if yes, do you have any advice/recommendations as to how to best handle?? I've also been in contact w/ a mechanic who told me it's a engine malfunction because of the size of the engine is too small and the turbo causes it to run hot and create sludge. Half of me wants to seek legal action because there are owners who have changed their oil every 5k miles and STILL had sludge. VW has been open about the problem, extending the warranty to 8 years, but only if you can prove you've had oil changes every 5k, which I haven't. Also, up until a few years ago VW had been using non synthetic oil for service, possible unknowingly fueling the sludge problem themselves.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
I don't think you have any legal recourse, though I wish you good luck, as you will be needing it.
~alpha
What kind of interval have you used for oil changes?
By the way it is not engine malfunction but malmaintenance.
Using wrong oil with too long interval does not make engine design bad.
Krzys using Mobil 1 0W40 from begining
You might see if you can find someone to put a rebuilt or used engine in for less $$$.
Maybe there is a defect since he said even some cars that had the oil changed on schedule had the same problem. However, he needed to not exceed the maximum oil change interval if he was interested in keeping the warranty in effect.
I am the unlucky owner of a 2002 Passat, which I got almost new w/ 4,000 miles from a relative. I've kept up w/ most of the major tune ups (only at the dealership) but haven't had oil changes every 5k miles. Now I've been told at 37k miles I need a new engine ($8,500) because of oil sludge. This is incredible, if not maddening!!!!
I've called VWoA and was told it is not under warranty because I cannot prove I had the oil changed EVERY 5k miles. Of course, the dealership will not help me at all!
It would be helpful if you posted the following information:
How many oil changes can you document? At what mileages? What oil did you use (synth or dino)?
Change your oil every 3K or 3 months, drain and refill coolant at least every 24K or 2 years, and change your ATF every 24K or 2 years. If you follow this schedule, or something similar for your vehicle, you generally won't have any mechanical engine or transmission failures. Fluids are the life-blood of your engine!
I sugesst that you don't buy a new engine and I sugesst that you call as many junkyards as you can, and find a low mileage engine from a wreck. You should be able to buy a used engine for less than $1K. You should be able to get the engine installed for less than $800 at any smaller shop. PLEASE NOTE tell the shop to install turbo from the swapped engine. Do not keep your old turbo, because chances are it is gone as well. When a junkyard sells you your engine turbo should be included. A new turbo can cost as much as a used engine. If you can afford I actually sugesst you buy a new turbo from garrett that will fit on your junkyard supplied engine, ask garrett what you should buy and than try to find this new on either e-bay or froogle or whatever. Try to buy turbos that are ball bearing and have both water and oil cooling, and when the shop installs it make sure that they know that you want both water and oil cooling for the turbo. Why? Because turbine is the one that distroyed your oil and cooked it to a sludge. Any turbo engine requires good oil. If you are cheap and don't want to spend extra money on the new turbo and don't really care for performance you can keep your old turbo (from the junkyard not your engine) and make sure you install an aftermarket turbotimer ($100-250) in your car. Turbo timers are used to keep the car running even as you exit the car and lock it so that turbo has enough time to cool down by having oil circulating through it, this also slows the process of oil from boiling and turning into sludge.
Speaking of oil, I think you will remember from now on that it is STUPID to try to save on high-quality oil. With that in mind keep buying good oil. Who makes good oil? Almost everyone. Mobil1 is most common, but it is no better than many others, it really doesen't matter who makes it, what it matters is what SAE/ACEA and API requrenments it passes. Since your car is 2002, AND turboed, I suggest you use either oil that satisfies ACEA E5 or if you cannot find ACEA ratings than use API SL or even better API SM. Now the oil thikness. This is important. The number that stands next to the W tell you how well the oil is suited for WINTER therefore W. So my advice to you is to change oil during the winter and summer times regardless of whether you have or have not went 5k miles in between. For winter I would use 5W-40, so change to 5w-40 before winter like in November or so. And during summer you should really get oil that is like 5w-50, but since this does not exist, you should use any oil that has the second number 50. 15w-50 would be a great choice. So you know why I tell you these things, I'll try to put the stuff in terms almost everyone should understand. The first number tells you how easy it is for oil to move through the engine the first number tells you how well it is suited for winter driving. Oil should flow with a lot less resistance (low viscosity) when it is cold so a low frist number is good for winter, and the high second number after the w should be high for summer. The second number tells you the propensity of oil to thin out at higher temperatures, that is it tells you that the higher the number the higher the weight of it. This is good for hot summer days when idling. If you chage your oil with full synthetics and with the schedjule I told you your engine will last over 150,000 miles with most certanty, all the while it is saving you on gas. I am sorry for your misfortune, but there is really nothing you can do.
Volkswagen Approved Engine Oil (gasoline engines), and
Choosing the Right Oil—gasoline engines
at: http://www.vw.com/owners/serv_care.html
(I would guess that using 15W-50 in summer would not cause a problem...just thought it was worth pointing out exacty what VW requirements and recommendations are)
Obviously the 1.8l has some sludge problems, even if people are following manufacturers recommended schedule. This means that the car needs more protection than it already has. VW cannot ,for I assume marketing reasons, make its customers change oil for cold and hot conditions, so it tries to make people use oil that is can-all, do-all, which is impossible. To counteract the marketing and fix the problem with VW you can either A buy something else (VW wouldn't want this) or B use oil that protects your engine in a best way possible, regardless of what manufacturer tells you. You could use 5w-40, in the summer, but you have a sludge problem in your engine from it being cooked by turbo charger, and what will you do, still listen to VW or spend 1 hour or 2 researching why the sludge happens, and doing the right thing about it or have a 8,500 damage? I choose the former. You can do whatever you like, its your nerves and your money.
Toyota had a similar Sludge problem w/ their cars and stepped up to the plate for their customers and provided service as long as owners could prove they changed their oil once every year.
And, there are cases where VW owners did follow the recommended service of every 5k and STILL experienced sludge, which makes me feel it is the engine that is defective and not the owner. Also, VW was not using non-synthetic oil for many years, possibly contributing to the problem. Owners that got the new engine, still experience problems because... well.... it is the same defective engine!
If this were an isolated incident, I would just chalk it up to "live and learn" and cut my losses and move on, but it seems this is not unique to this make/model.
And, I talked to a mechanic who has a friend that works for the VW dealership and he told him it is a known problem w/ Passats/Audis and once there is sludge there will always be problems.
Yes, I do take partial blame for my actions, but, I also feel the manufacturer needs to be accountable for their actions as well. And the dealerships needs to support their customers and not just wish they would go away, which is the kind of service I've received!
I don't know if this is a proven fact or not, but he's personally a great believer in 10W-30 weight synthetic oil, thereby minimizing the overall viscosity range, and minimizing the required amounts of V.I.'s used. Mobil 1 10W-30, for example, is generally good down into the minus degree F operational range, and certainly good enough for the high temperature ranges subjected by turbochargers.
Engines with turbos are "oil critical." And, turbos really should be given a cool-down, or at least a spin-down time, before shutting down the engine. Otherwise, the heat of the turbo will "coke" the oil, i.e. cook it off, and cause carbon build up. This alone can lead to sludge problems.
I've owned two Classic SAAB 900 Turbo's and never experienced an engine or turbo failure out to 175K miles using Mobil 1 10W-30 with changes every 3K or 3 months, whichever came first.
Again, I am glad we are in agreement...
VW on the other hand doesn't have this problem. Everyone thinks their cars aren't close to Toyota for reliability so when poop hits the fan people go, oh well its VW what did you expect? The fact remains Toyota will take care of you VW doesn't care nearly as much. Of interesting note, EVERYONE on my wedding here in the US owned ONLY TOYOTAS. It's not like there were people who owned toyotas and something else as well. NO. PEOPLE who where at my wedding ONLY had Toyotas, from both sides of the family. Why? When they asked me (I pretend to know a thing or two about cars) what car should I get, I want fuel economy, reliability, good resale value and I want it to ride great. I cannot in all honesty say anything else but Toyota. If anyone had asked for anything else, like all the above but said I want it to handle great I would have said Mazda or Honda. So yes, if you care about reliability, you picked a wrong brand. A VERY wrong brand.
And one more thing. There is nothing sophisticated about small turbo engine like the one in passat. There are a lot of things VW could have done to improve the powerplant. Don't blame yourself. If I worked for VW I would have insisted on a more efficient turbine. I would have installed an huge oil cooler upstream of the turbo, and if nothing else I would have circulated the oil even after the engine was shut of with an electrically controlled oil pump. Even at the risk of a higher turbo lag I would have moved the turbo much closer to the firewall, and I would have put a thick wide insulated pipe form the turbo to the cat, which I would put under the car. Yes the car would loose some lag due to the longer piping from the compressor, but I would be able to use a much bigger down pipe and a cat farther downstream from the turbo which would more than compensate. VW engineers were too lazy to be bothered to do all of this. I cannot explain my horror when I saw a turbo, header and Cat all located in the engine bay within inches of one another just sitting there worming up the air under the hood, messing up all the wiring (wires hate hot air), pipes, and air going into the engine. When I saw that I said WTH? What were they thinking. To top it off they use that small pathetic turbo. It's a good thing the cars last as long as they do with the set up they have.
I know that for emmision purposes they wanted cat to be close so that it can be wormed up, this is why I said they should have used insulation after the turbine, maybe even before and on the turbine as well. But no, they had to put it right there next to the wheel-well. Go figure. Trust me nothing sophisticated about that engine. All the technology in it has been used for a long time now. Go by a V6 camry, you'll be happier.
To make a long story short, the car now has more than 130K miles, he changes oil every 3K and it has less lag and more power. To have been initially designed and made like this would have cost VW not much more than they did for this design. Still new camry V6 is a better car for people who don't care to modify their cars to last longer or perform better it already does that.
Paragraphs are your friend. They make your posts far more readable and then all of your observations and comments can/will be absorbed way better by the readers. One continuous paragraph for more than three or four or six or eight sentences is difficult to absorb - trust me.
If your post is longer than than three or so column-inches, you need to make some spaces between your thoughts if you want folks to be able to "hear" you.
From now on I will try to remember to separate my thoughts by different paragraphs for each new idea. Just like I learned in high-school, but seem to have forgotten since I took ESL. I am sorry to anyone who might have had a hard time reading my drible.
Oh and how does one enter car icons into text?
If you hover over one with your cursor, you should see text for the emotion that is intended to be conveyed. Or just pick whichever one's looks appeal to you.
Regarding your lack of knowledge for modification... You could go to the shop that will install your engine and tell them to install new parts that you have bought along with the new engine ( when I say new engine I don't mean new I just mean the one form another car in a junkyard). If you go to http://turbobygarrett.com you will see that they have a turbo kit for your car. YOU DON'T need to buy this but your car will have much more power (almost like a V8 engine in it) with about the same fuel economy and better reliability than your VW now. This will void your warranty, but since you don't have it it doesen't really matter, at least you will have a car you like. Mechanic will know what to do with the parts. This is their job.
Before you buy the engine from the junkyard make sure they compression test it. You don't need to know what this means, what you need to find out from your VW dealer is what is acceptable lowest compression on COLD 1.8l and what is the minimum difference between the cylinders. Than ask the junkyard to tell you the numbers. If they are not up to spec (either pressure too different form one cylidner to another or too low a pressure) don't buy it. Just as you install this engine and run it, you should buy flush the engine (Called oil flush) and change the oil immediately. You should do this regardless. Again I am sorry for your loss ( I know I know...).
I will be totaly cool now.">
Thanks anyway...
Thanks pat you are great.
"I missed three oil changes where I went over the 5k miles recommended service (all service done at dealership)"
You are still failing to tell us how much over 5000K miles you went. Didyou go over by 100 miles, 1000 miles or 5000 miles. The reason for me asking is if you went over by 100 miles and can prove that oil changes were done then you have a fight on your hands. But if you were not changing your oil until 7000 miles then you are negligent.
Bottom line is you are not the type of driver that should be driving a VW..PERIOD. VW's require scheduled maintenance ON TIME EVERY TIME!!! If not you get yourself in the situation your in. Dump the Passat and get yourself a Accord.
God Bless the individual that picks your car up on a used car lot.
The importance of following the service schedule and oil requirement is crucial in this car. Synthetic is definitely necessary.
To our original poster: you've stated that you have evidence of people following the service schedule and still developing sludge. I'd like to see a link for that. Were they using synthetic oil in the specified viscosity meeting VW's 502.00 spec?
To others reading this thread: There has been some suggestions about using other than specified oil viscosities. While they might work out just fine, remember that you do so at your own risk. 15w-40 or whatever might work, but you need to weigh whether you think that it's worth gambling $8,500 against trying to out-guess a VW's engineering recommendation of 5w-40 synthetic. It's a bad gamble, IMHO.
And I, too, would like to see the answer to fish8's question: You are still failing to tell us how much over 5000K miles you went. Didyou go over by 100 miles, 1000 miles or 5000 miles.
This whole thread sums up why I would never buy or recommend anyone else to buy a used turbocharged car. It's a more sophisticated engine and it requires careful maintenance.
The suggestion about looking into a used engine as a replacement is a good one and well worth pursuing, along with an independent shop doing the install. Good luck.
When I drove off after the change the car did not shift well and after a mile or 3 it seemed to be stuck in 2nd gear. After turning off the key and starting again it was ok and I drove home. The next morning same problem. Went back to the dealer who had a mechanic take a ride with me. After a block or two the problem repeated. The mechanic says.."yep that is it". What is it? "Oh we have this problem all the time after fluid change. Never change the fluid!?
Chrysler gave me a new (rebuilt) transmission for $25 under extended warranty which I drove on to 100K total and then sold but I never changed the fluid in that one!
I would advise that, if you are going to tell people something that you use your own head. Telling someone that they should do something because it says so in the manual is akin to telling someone that we should listen to what someone says because of their credentials. I agree that to some degree in situations when a decision needs to be made quickly credentials and credibility should be used as a reason to listen to someone. In this case however, we have VW engineers who are, according to JD power and associates, Consumer Reports, many people with 1.8l T, and in my opinion lost any credibility for durable design.
Your argument is that 15W-50 ,you actually misquoted me to have said 15W-40, might be better than VW 5W-40, because VW said so, and because probably VW engineers know better? If they did would their engines cook oil to the sludge? Your argument is a logical fallacy, AD HOMINUM. Fluid dynamics doesn't care what you, VW engineers, or I think; your conviction, or anyone's conviction no matter how great the number of people or their titles does not change laws of nature.
While you might not be sure that 15w-50 is not a better oil to use in the summer than 5w-40, I am. The reasons are above this post that I have written and you should read them, you might already agree with what I have said. I have stated, in the last few posts why I think that. I am not going to repeat that here. I use MY brain to think, so please if you are going to suggest something to people, use yours, and not VW's. I don't project my contradictions to others, I only ask that others do not project on me, fair, no?
I didn't mean to make this discussion antagonistic, or to give lectures, but I feel I have been attacked and not my ideas, this is why I wrote this post the way I did.
My recommendation still stands. Use 5w-40 in the winter, and 15w-50, or 20w-50 full synthetics during the summer.
Are you automotive engineer?
VW specifies that one must use VW approved oil for 1.8T engine. The specification is VW502.00. I have no clue what does it say (what the spec specs ;-), I can only read label on oil container. If it says that it meets VW spec I use it.
VW sent addenum to user's manual and listed approved oils. Oils meeting the spec are all synthetics 0W40, 5W40 and 5W30.
There are no 15W50 oils listed. If I used oil recomended by you I could see VW voiding warranty. I do not say that 15W50 is bad. It is just it does not meet manufacturer requirements.
Krzys
The gamble is this: the extended sludge warranty issued by VWoA pretty much mandates that the owner use VW Spec 502.00 oil. The campaign letter from VWoA lists a series of oils with viscosity ratings of 5w-30, 0w-40 and 5w-40 meeting VW Spec 502.00. Using any other oil puts the owner outside that requirement. So before you recommend to any owner that they kiss off their warranty, I recommend you use your brain just a tad more. They've got more to lose than you do by following your recommendation.
And thanks for the note and the insult - I'll be deleting this thread from my list.
:P
As an engineer and owner of 5 VWs (3 currently), I agree with this statement 100%. To anyone who owns a VW and expects VW warranty support, I HIGHLY recommend following the VW 502.00 specification to the letter. Anyone using oils that do not follow this specification should not expect any recourse from VW - they have more than enough justification to void your warranty. The same goes for any other manufacturer's specification that owners decide not to abide by....
Krzys
If you feel that you don't need to do those things for whatever reason, that's fine. But it leaves you with no defensible position in demanding that VW take care of the problem.
I guess the way to look at it is that VW's position is/will be that they told you what to do to properly maintain your engine and you chose a different path. Therefore you have let VW off the hook since you did not do what they said your engine/vehicle required.
I think that's what the folks here are trying to convey to you.
Some folks have given you some good advice about replacing your engine - have you investigated any of those thoughts?
Our friend with improper maintenance does not. When I wrote the above posts I suggested that he get a used engine from a junkyard and do a few modifications to the engine to make the engine more reliable. I wouldn't have suggested making engine modifications to a person who has warranty, but since he does not who cares?
While I agree that one should use the scheduled maintenance intervals and use only approved oil to save the warranty from VW IF AND ONLY IF they have warranty, I do not suggest the same thing to the people who do not qualify for longevity reasons.
Now if people were to read what I had said before there wouldn't have been any misunderstanding. I think that now we should be on the same page...
I cannot disclose more details because I had signed too many documents saying that I will have to be quiet.
I am more of the signals' and recently controls guy. So no I, am not mechanical engineer, but I have already taken (in my undergraduate program) some classes that were optional and some because I just wanted to from ME. I took like Thermodynamics 1 and 2, Fluids 1 and 2, Stress and Strain, Internal Cobustion Engines <- I actually had to take Thermo. 2 just to take ICE. If time allows i was thinking I should also take Gearing and Applications but I would need to take one more course before that one and I just don't have that kind of time.
Your point being that this is important to someone who has warranty unlike the guy with the blown engine, which doesn't apply here.
The gamble is this: the extended sludge warranty issued by VWoA pretty much mandates that the owner use VW Spec 502.00 oil. The campaign letter from VWoA lists a series of oils with viscosity ratings of 5w-30, 0w-40 and 5w-40 meeting VW Spec 502.00. Using any other oil puts the owner outside that requirement. So before you recommend to any owner that they kiss off their warranty, I recommend you use your brain just a tad more. They've got more to lose than you do by following your recommendation.
NO there is no gamble. His engine is a goner, he has no warranty, and he thought he had to spend 8,500 to fix it. I suggested he gets a used engine from the junkyard, use API SL or SM with SAE 5w-40 winter/cold and 15w-40 summer. What is the problem with this? I did not recommend anyone to kiss of their warranty, actually I'd like to see if someone like VW do analysis of old oils weight and viscosity after engine developed sludge even if you did it when you had warranty. Still I suggest that people with warranty do whatever VW suggests, but before I wasn't talking about people with warranty I talked about a guy who was complaining how his warranty was VOID and VW did not want to fix his car. Clear?
And thanks for the note and the insult - I'll be deleting this thread from my list.
You are welcome. I thought I should return your favor.
Firstly, thank you for your reply. Wanted to clarify that the point I was trying to make by bringing up other owners who also experienced sludge and needed a new engine even though they changed their oil EVERY 5k miles is this:
VW has already acknowledged there is a sludge problem (letter dated 8/04), inherent to the Passat 1.8 turbo engines. There are well documented cases of owners that did change their oil every 5,000 miles and STILL got sludge and needed a new engine.
Wouldn't you agree a conclusion can be drawn that in those specific instances, changing the oil every 5,000 miles was irrelevant because it still resulted in sludge problems.
Personally, I feel VW is using the 5,000 mile oil changes as an extra hurdle to avoid having to pay for damages under warranty. They know very well, the average joe won't be able to prove this!
I say, shame on Volkswagen for being so petty and underhanded!
BTW, what are your thoughts on using oil that is 10w30 and 5w30 in extremely hot and humid weather???
I changed my oil at these times: 4065, 10661, 24370, 37190. I know I deserve the predicament I am in for being such an irresponsible owner. In my defense all I can say is that it was during a very busy period of my life and I do take full responsibility for the lack of maintenance. Ultimately this will be a costly learning experience for me.
But, how do you explain the same diagnosis of a new engine due to sludge, for the more responsible owners who did in fact change their oil every 5,000 miles?? (Go to: myvwlemon.com for specific cases). In such instances, wouldn't the oil changes be irrelevant to the creation of sludge and more a case of engine malfunction? Of course, I am finding there are many different variables such as: weather, where service was done, type of oil, etc.
Thanks you all for you advice/recommenations and you're right in that I should not be driving VWs anymore... will go back to Japanese cars from now on!