Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow?

bigt · May 2006

Did anyone see both the 60-minutes and Dateline specials on E85 last night. I had no ideal this thing was that far along. I am going to have to read more about this. Seems like there is money in the fields to be made!

gem069 · May 2006

Yea, I did see both also. Grad they didn't run at same minutes.
Sure was a great insight into what could actualy be done in the USA and as a business prespective and not as a political BS as we allways get.

The east indian guy, on 60 min's, said that plain ole praire grass which is easy to grow and yup very cheap to harvest can be made into ethanol for .75/gal........damn.

The other people said, on dateline yes big oil only wants ethanol as a additive like citco does as 10% and not as 85%. Of course they wouldn't they would have to build plants and the market would open up to entreprenures like the ones in WY did.

Ashame they didn't go into Biodiesel, not just the B20 but B100.

raychuang00 · May 2006

For one reason: even with the engine optimized for E85 fuel, the fuel economy is much lower than that of regular gasoline-fuelled vehicles. A more likely choice would be E40 fuel in a few years' time, since that won't tax the resources of ethanol production and fuel economy will be much better.

jkinzel · May 2006

http://zfacts.com/p/60.html

mopowah · May 2006

how many people would sacrifice a few miles per gallon to use ethanol as a way to "stick it" to big oil companies. I've been thinking about it and I think I would (if it were available anywhere near where I live).

I think it might be worth an extra $300 a year. It would take an awful lot of people to do it before the oil companies would even notice. But I think I would still feel better about it.

Of course, this is all for not since I couldn't buy the stuff even if I wanted to.

snakeweasel · May 2006

I just figured it out that it would cost me and my wife almost $900/yr to switch to ethanol. Sorry but I'll stay with gas.

jkinzel · May 2006

Ethanol is a Rube Goldberg solution and will end up costing the consumer lots of dollars. Its a good emergency solution but a very poor for long term cure. Ethanol is nothing more than a cheap quick fix for the auto industry to meet pollution standards and we as consumers will pay the price at the pump.
If Im going to stick it to the man Ill use diesel, many more miles to the gallon and with bio diesel there is a negligible lost of power. The infrastructure is already in place; all we need are the clean diesel cars to use it.

gem069 · May 2006

If Im going to stick it to the man Ill use diesel, many more miles to the gallon and with bio diesel there is a negligible lost of power. The infrastructure is already in place; all we need are the clean diesel cars to use it.

Yes diesel gives better mileage than gas with some less power. At least for now B20 is available, so 20% of usuage is from renewable sources and maybe B100 will be available so we don't need any fossil fuels to run a biodiesel engine which will get the same mileage as common diesel.

Now ethanol, propane have a 10% less mileage but if cheap enough and a Gov't push, it could be.

In Argentina they use a duel-system gas/propane. You start your car with gas and then hit the switch to propane.
The cost for them is much different where filling up a gas tank is about $50, and filling up a tank of propane is less then $10(even with 10% less mileage) it is sure worth the change over. The kit cost about $1000 and is very common in all major cities in Argentina.

Just like Brasil did with Alcool, the USA could do with using all E85, B100, propane, NG and in the future when cost fesible hydrogen and electric.

gagrice · May 2006

Just like Brasil did with Alcool, the USA could do with using all E85, B100, propane, NG and in the future when cost fesible hydrogen and electric.

I have no problem with a multifaceted approach to alternate fuel. My complaint is with Lobbyist paid politicians making mandates that are not practical.

I had a friend with a 454 Chevy PU that used propane. It saved him money when propane was cheap. Not sure now how that would work out now. The Brazil ethanol business is still not clearly defined. They now have more oil and ethanol than they need. So they are oil independent. Depending on crops is shaky at best. Brazil left a lot of people with ethanol only cars and no fuel in the late 1980s. Sugar was more valuable than ethanol and gas became cheap. At least with a FFV you can use either.

According to the EPA mileage ratings. GM FFV using E85 get 25% less MPG than with unleaded regular. Chrysler cars lose 29% efficiency using E85. E85 will have to sell for 75% of unleaded regular to break even.

catam · May 2006

All the naysayers about E 85 need to see the dateline NBC story. Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12676374/

If this link doesn't work just go to msn.com, then the news section then to Dateline NBC.
Vinod Khosla is clearly a very brilliant man who has done his research on the subject, (3 years worth), and is obviously not beholden to the oil industry, and rich enough not to be bought off. Too bad we don't have someone like that in the white house.
Can anyone say Al Gore 2008. I know this country would be alot better off he the supreme court hadn't screwed the whole country in 2000.

gagrice · May 2006

Can anyone say Al Gore 2008

We would have already gotten our $5 per gallon gas as he states in his book. I would rather have that hack Ralph Nader than Gore.

catam · May 2006

Yes gas might be selling for $5 / gallon with Gore, but you can bet E85 would be selling for a lot less, and be much more available. It does burn a whole lot "greener"

gagrice · May 2006

It does burn a whole lot "greener"

Tell that to those that make a living fishing and shrimping off the Mississippi delta. Ethanol is bad for America, good for politicians and ADM. The mega farms owned by huge corporations could care less that they are dumping nitrogen into the streams and rivers. They have an "E" ticket to steal from the US Government and they are taking us for a gigantic ride.

jkinzel · May 2006

The email below was sent to me this week and it caught my attention. It brings back memories of the alleged fuel shortage in the eights which I will explain later. I removed the senders name as I didnt think it was my place to perpetuate his possible termination for disclosing this information.

WHAT GAS SHORTAGE??

I just think everyone should know... I am a tugboat sailor. The gas shortage
is totally bogus. There are "fleets" all up and down the gulf coast that you
don't know about. They consist of hundreds and thousands of tank barges that
we tie up daily that are filled with millions of gallons of fuel. The big
companies pump their fuel into the barges and as long as the fuel is in a
barge it is considered offshore and not part of the reserve. So, there are
millions of gallons of fuel tied up to spud barges all through the bays,
intracoastal inlets, and canals all up and down the coast that the companies
don't have to report. They fabricate the shortage by pumping their millions
of gallons of fuel and hide them in these fleets creating the shortage so
they can make their multi billion dollar gains while we can't afford the gas
at the pump. I've never in my life asked anyone to forward anything, but
this has me fuming. Accidental pun not intended. With many voices, we can
put a stop to this.
End of email.

In the 1980s we had a fuel shortage on the west coast of the US. I dont recall the year, time of year or even if it was nation wide, just that we were paying record prices at the time. What I do recall is the crews working the north Puget Sound (Anacortes, Ferndale, Cherry Pt. and Port Angeles, Washington) ship assist tugs talking about the loaded tankers coming in from Valdes, AK and going to anchor for several weeks and even a month before going to the dock to unload. Its possible that they lay at anchor in Prince William Sound for several weeks before heading south. Many of the ships had sat loaded so long; barnacles had grown on the hull all the way up to the load lines.
I believe the above email to be valid.

mopowah · May 2006

This is just one of those "great conspiracy" emails from someone supposedly on the inside that we are supposed to believe but turns out to be just an urban legend. It'll probably show up on Snopes before too long.

snakeweasel · May 2006

and is obviously not beholden to the oil industry

Maybe he is beholden to ADM?
Problem is he is repeating some falsehoods about ethanol. Add to that is the admittance he has invested millions in companies that are working on ethanol technology makes me think that his "pie-in-the-sky" technology is just promoting companies he has investments in.

Can anyone say Al Gore 2008.

Not without tasting bile forming. But not to worry it won't happen.

I know this country would be alot better off he the supreme court hadn't screwed the whole country in 2000.

Not to start a political discussion (and I won't continue this on the forum) but maybe you should take a unbiased look at what happened there.

snakeweasel · May 2006

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/barges.asp

gem069 · May 2006

WHAT GAS SHORTAGE??

Nobody from any oil company has said the words, "there is a shortage of oil on hand". They do say from various(like 20/20, dateline, 60 min's etc), sources that wall street and oil speculations have raised the prices of crude oil sky high. This is why the oil companies which have been investaged over 30 times and not been found gulity once will slide by again. Since the greedy scum at wall street are also making million, they won't change either, unless forced to and the gud ole USA will just fumble along as usual. :sick:

crfd38 · May 2006

Gagrice!
I am driving a 2005 Chevy Silverado that is E85 ready. I get about 16.9 MPG using E85 and almost 18 MPG using unleaded regular. The price break for me is at $2.50 / gallon regular is about $.30. It Fifty cents cheaper yesterday (Minnesota). I know that my proximity to the breweries has an impact on price point. I was using it even when it was more expensive than unleaded. Money is not my motivator. Small town minnesota is getting a huge influx of economic activity and I wish to send as little money as I can to the mid east. To all the right and left coast Enviro's, come to flyover country and drive in corn country. mile after mile of family farms that could not make it with the market demands for their products. this week I heard a radio spot aimed at corm farmers asking them to contact the ethanol coops for a better bid on their bin corn.....Wow..E85 will change things, GO YELLOW!

gagrice · May 2006

I am driving a 2005 Chevy Silverado that is E85 ready. I get about 16.9 MPG using E85 and almost 18 MPG using unleaded regular

I would be happy to get 16.9 MPG on regular with my 5.3L GMC. The only time I get over 18 MPG is on a road trip.

I have a farm between Long Prairie & Alexandria. I could not make any money at $3 per bushel in the late 1970s. Not sure how they are making any money at 2 bucks a bushel now. With 160 acres in corn it was all we could do to make 100 bushels to the acre. After you buy seed, fertilizer, fuel & combine there isn't much left. If you know any small farmers making it on corn for ethanol I would be surprised. It is a boon for the mega farmers and ADM. I imagine MN loves the taxes as there was not a tax that state did not like. The fellow using my land as pasture gives me enough to pay the taxes each year and we are both happy. He is still milking cows. The fact that my place borders the Long Prairie River, I don't want chemicals leaching into the river that flows into the Mississippi. Too bad that mega ag corporations are not worried about anything but their bottom line. Ethanol is bad for America and it is bad for Brazil. They are cutting down valuable rain forest to grow sugar. It will come back to haunt them.

nwng · May 2006

it is a fact that e85's hit on mpg is quite big. Does it have to do with the way the engine burns the fuel? Is GM or Ford working hard with a solution that will make the next gen ffv vehicle at least on par with cars that uses unleaded? I hope it won't be honda or yota who's gonna get the breakthrough on this, a hybrid diesel and a hybrid ffv auto manufacturer probably rule the world.

snakeweasel · May 2006

Does it have to do with the way the engine burns the fuel?

No it has to do with how much energy is in the fuel. The reason E85 takes such a big hit is that there is far less energy stored in it than in gasoline. Since it takes 'X' amount of energy to move a car so many miles you will have to burn more ethanol to go that distance.

Is GM or Ford working hard with a solution that will make the next gen ffv vehicle at least on par with cars that uses unleaded?

That would never happen, anything done to increase how much mileage you get with E85 on a FFV will also increase the mileage using gas. So increasing E85 mileage by 10% would also increase the mileage for gas by 10%.

gem069 · May 2006

Did anybody watch C-span yesterday?

A few congress people were questioning a guy from the EPA.
They asked him many many ?'s regarding ethanol.
Of which he had done his homework.

Some hightlights:
He said, that the USA has 9 ethanol referneries now and has 29 in construction and will be on line in 2007.
He also said, that while ethanol would help, it is by no means the only solution the USA needs but E85 can be implemented into the USA fairly quickly and corn cannot ever meet the future demands and other sources for ethanol must be used, of which there are many.
Brasil's total energy usage (includes all forms used, not just cars)is 20% alcohol and they will soon make it to 25%. While the USA may see in 5 yrs. a 1% to 2% of it's usage due to alcohol fuels,,,,, but it's a start.
He even said, that liquidfied coal is now an option since oil is over $40/barrel, where they can make a profit but that is still fossil fuels even through it's at home and jobs would be created here to make it.

jkinzel · May 2006

Did he ever mention the word "diesel"?

catam · May 2006

If our goevernment made a concerted effort to support E85 production, (especially from switchgrass which provides 10 times the ethanol as corn), the influx into the market of an alternative fuel source would decrease our demand on foreign oil. Granted this would be a slow and gradual process.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if another fuel source becomes widely available as it is in Brazil, the cost of gas would go down.
This is possible to do, Brazil is doing it today. Why aren't we???
I realize our use of oil is much higher than Brazil's, and we are unlikely to achieve energy indepedence like they have, but even if we cut our imports of oil by 10,20,30% or more, it would have a huge impact on our economy.

gem069 · May 2006

Did he ever mention the word "diesel"?

The EPA guy, was only answering the many questions from congress.
However, one congressman did mention, when he was question "Too bad we can't talk about biodiesel, but today our questions are only for E85".

So I guess, they were only allowered to talk about E85 and maybe the EPA guy was only briefed on E85?

gem069 · May 2006

If our goevernment made a concerted effort to support E85 production, (especially from switchgrass which provides 10 times the ethanol as corn), the influx into the market of an alternative fuel source would decrease our demand on foreign oil. Granted this would be a slow and gradual process.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if another fuel source becomes widely available as it is in Brazil, the cost of gas would go down.
This is possible to do, Brazil is doing it today. Why aren't we???
I realize our use of oil is much higher than Brazil's, and we are unlikely to achieve energy indepedence like they have, but even if we cut our imports of oil by 10,20,30% or more, it would have a huge impact on our economy.

Is switchgrass the same as praire grass? It is is, a guy on dateline mentioned that praire grass is far easier to grow, easier to harvest and far cheaper to make ethanol. He even said , praire grass can be made for less than .75/g.

Sure, the gud ole USA could do a hell la'va lot more but remember we got tons and tons and tons of lobbyist who pay big bucks to grease hands and get their way and forget the needs of the voting public at large..... bummer
If the pres of exxonmobil can brag to his stockholders,,,,,,, we made record profits again and we didn't have to spend anything and we ain't gonna build any new refineries. Now if this guy can be so brazen to say this in public.... why in the world would anything serious be done?.... unless the chit really hits the fan, right?

gagrice · May 2006

Late last year in Goldfield, Iowa, a refinery began pumping out a stream of ethanol, which supporters call the clean, renewable fuel of the future.
There's just one twist: The plant is burning 300 tons of coal a day to turn corn into ethanol - the first US plant of its kind to use coal instead of cleaner natural gas
An hour south of Goldfield, another coal-fired ethanol plant is under construction in Nevada, Iowa. At least three other such refineries are being built in Montana, North Dakota, and Minnesota.

The trend, which is expected to continue, has left even some ethanol boosters scratching their heads. Should coal become a standard for 30 to 40 ethanol plants under construction - and 150 others on the drawing boards - it would undermine the environmental reasoning for switching to ethanol in the first place, environmentalists say.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0323/p01s01-sten.html

gagrice · May 2006

Sounds to me like we should eliminate the Corn and just run are cars on coal. The Germans did during WW2. That will save the Mississippi River from Nitrogen contamination and we can grow less invasive crops.

jkinzel · May 2006

Ethanol = Rube Goldberg. It seems Bio Diesel might be of more value

smatt11 · May 2006

gagrice -
Dude check your driving habits. I get 18MPG on e10 and 17 on e85 with my Silverado and it gets better on longer trips. My Taurus get 22 on e10 and 20 on e85. At $.50 cheaper in MN for e85, I save a few pennies. But I have bought e85 in WI when it was more expensive than gas and would continue to do so.

I have read many of your comments, but not once have you offered any alternatives. What would you suggest the US do to solve the fuel problem, lor do you believe none exists?

If farmers in MN are getting subsidies to grow corn, that is fine by me. CA farmers get a lot more subsidies to raise dairy cows while farmers in MN and WI get little by comparison.

Why do you think subsidies are bad? Without them you probably would not have any utility service, that is the benefit of sharing the tax burden to build common infrastrucutre for everybody. I pay taxes and the state built a small commuter train that I cannot use to commute to work, because my work requires me to haul heavy items in my truck. Like most mass transit, that train will never make a profit. Does that mean all mass transit should be abolished? No, the government will continue to subsidize its use.

And what do you have against ADM? They had $36.5 B in revenue in their last fiscal year. Their gross margin is 9%. Those numbers put them at #56 in the Fortune 500. Additionally, they had a 3% net profit margin, and paid 29% of that in taxes ($145,167 in taxes for the quarter ending March 31, 2006). Additionally, ADM is a worldwide corporation working with many governments. If you look at the top ten in the F500, only Walmart and AIG do not get significant government "subsidies". (and I am sure somebody will argue with me on that statement too).

Corn cannot be the only ingredient in making ethanol, the US should produce ethanol from many crop sources to ensure more stability in supply. However, the left overs from the distillation process can be used for other purposes such as animal feed. So corn grown for ethanol production is not used exclusively for ethanol, and it shuld be noted that way. I have not heard anybody (other than that stupid Ford commercial where the guy shoves the corn stalk in his truck's tank) even hint that ethanol from corn is "the answer". At best it is a step in the right direction, but any reduction in the oil consumption of the US is beneficial.

On coal gasification, if it were viable, it would have beet ethanol to market. Coal gasification is only for those who enjoy Jim Kramer's screaming side-show.

gem069 · May 2006

Corn cannot be the only ingredient in making ethanol, the US should produce ethanol from many crop sources to ensure more stability in supply. However, the left overs from the distillation process can be used for other purposes such as animal feed. So corn grown for ethanol production is not used exclusively for ethanol, and it shuld be noted that way. I have not heard anybody (other than that stupid Ford commercial where the guy shoves the corn stalk in his truck's tank) even hint that ethanol from corn is "the answer". At best it is a step in the right direction, but any reduction in the oil consumption of the US is beneficial.

On coal gasification, if it were viable, it would have beet ethanol to market. Coal gasification is only for those who enjoy Jim Kramer's screaming side-show.

I, from seeing both Dateline and 60 min's last week and C-span the other day as well as other sources aggree that corn is not the only answer but only part of the solution.
Granted you get about 10% less mileage but at least it's somwhat getting weaned off of fossil fuels. They stated that parire grass, which is extremely easy to grow, harvest and converted to ethanol for about .75/gal. So if retail price were $2.50 it would not only be cheaper but much better for weaning off fossil fuels and not supporting Usama.
They mentioned that there are 9 ethanol referneries in the USA now, and 29 are in process and will be operational in 2007.
Also mentioned was biofuel/B100, this is totally made form various grown items wheather, corn, grease, tree bark, and the list goes on and on and on. Also not to mention the better mileage than gas powered. Now if you want some accelaration, get one with a turbo then get the turbo kit to boost another 100 ponies. But for some reason, the media attention is being only focused on E85 but at least that is a start despite less mileage.
They also talked about liquid coal. They said, since a barrel is over $40, that too is now cost effective and could work very well, dispite being a fossil fuel but at least it's at home and not supporting Usama. They said they have a liquid coal plant in TN but no plans to build more at this time.

john500 · May 2006

Even I have gathered that gagrice is a diesel supporter. Increasing energy usage (more CO2 output per mile driven) to justify the use of corn simply to make it domestic is not a smart idea, even if it does make a country more self-sufficient. Ethanol from corn is another Band-aid approach to solve a highly complex problem with a simple (and simple-minded) solution.

jkinzel · May 2006

I cant speak for gagrice, however I would like to add my $0.02.
There is one station on the west coast that sells E85 gas and it is located in CA, so essentially E85 is not available.

I believe there is a fuel problem and the solution has been covered many times. The solution is bio diesel and clean diesel passenger cars. Bio diesel can be produced much cheaper than ethanol, has more energy per gallon, thus more miles per gallon and does not have the transportation issues ethanol has.
I think ethanol is good short term solution to our fuel dependence, but I believe bio diesel to be the better long term answer.

No comment on subsidies.

Additionally, ADM is a worldwide corporation working with many governments.
You answered your own question.
ADM is an ag business with one goal in mind, making money. I have nothing against ADM as they have done a lot of good to help feed the world, but they didnt do it for free. ADM is a global company working with many governments and in doing so helps set policy that would be (go figure) financially beneficial to ADM.
What does ADM have to gain from bio diesel? Very little if anything.
What does ADM have to gain from ethanol? Hundreds of millions of dollars.
So, if Im ADM Im going to the government and the auto industry to help develop clean ethanol engines. Short term solution, big financial return and no regard to the final cost to the consumer.

Can anyone answer this question? Is there an incentive for ADM to get into Bio diesel refining on a large scale?

gagrice · May 2006

but not once have you offered any alternatives

I think you have missed many of my posts since 1999 when I came on board here. I have advocated diesel cars & smaller PU trucks using biodiesel going back at least 5 years. Biodiesel is a solution that does not need subsidies to be beneficial.

My biggest problem with Ethanol is, it's being poured down our tanks by legislation rather than being brought to market on its own merit. If brought by merit it would never make it outside the corn belt. You have stated correctly that corn is not a great source of ethanol. It is a diversion on the part of our government to cover the facts.

One: all the money wasted on hydrogen has not produced any practical solution.

Two: MTBE was the last chemical agent poured into our tanks and water table with little or no scientific testing.

Three: It makes the Midwest feel like they are doing something to ease the use of oil imports. That is the furthest from the truth. It still takes a gallon of oil to make 1.21 gallons of ethanol.

Fourth: and maybe the saddest part is the environmental devastation caused by all the nitrogen & other chemicals dumped into the streams & rivers feeding the Mississippi River.

Now I will ask again because you ignored the question. How many small MN farmers do you know that are making any money on corn for Ethanol? When I say small I mean under 400 acre family farms. You are quick to defend ADM I hope you also defend Exxon's right to make a profit off of oil.

I'm glad you mentioned coal. As it will be polluting our MN skies producing ethanol. See how many of the new distillers are coal fired rather than the more expensive gas fired. coal n corn One of the newest ethanol plants is burning 300 tons of coal a day. I would rather have a nuclear plant next to my farm in MN than an ethanol plant.

I guess you missed all my rants on scrapping the Electric Vehicles we have subsidized over the last 14 years also. Yes I think that electric vehicles are the most practical solution for most of our vehicular needs. The billions we spent in the 1990s has not produced any electric vehicles that you or I can buy today. It was a boon to battery technology of which Toyota seems to be the only one making any money off our tax dollars.

Lastly, if you can get 18 MPG on 3 mile trips shopping with a 5.3 L V8 in your full sized PU truck, that is darn good. I guess I should have bought the FFV instead of the hybrid version. I have 2500 miles on my GMC Sierra hybrid and only twice did I get over 18 MPG. That was on 200 mile plus round trips to the desert. I average 14-15 MPG around town with that truck. It follows all hybrids in getting less than advertised mileage. I am sure it is not my driving as I got well over the advertised mileage on my Passat diesel.

I have written to my Senator's and Congressmen complaining about the whole process behind this Ethanol boondoggle. Give us some practical solutions not politics as usual.

gem069 · May 2006

I have written to my Senator's and Congressmen complaining about the whole process behind this Ethanol boondoggle. Give us some practical solutions not politics as usual.

LOL....... unfortunately,,,, lobbyist with the bucks gets their attention every time and a simple voter gets conned every time.
Sure, ethanol is getting a boost because for some strange reason certain people will make big bucks on proven technonogy, since Brasil has used flex fuel for years and YUP, which includes yanqui car makers, so no big change for them either, and great propaganda for them.
Now B100 is easiler to make form many products, doesn't need any fossil fuels to make it and has better results and is totally enviormently safe and fully renewable.
Hopfully, enough people [non-permissible content removed] enough for long enough the low lifes in gov't hear and make some needed changes for the USA and not their pockets and position?

seniorjose · May 2006

Hybrids do NOT use E85 but they can use 10% Ethanol as all other modern autos and trucks can. 10% Ethanol is currently in use by 80% of Iowa auto owners.

E85 can be run on a limited set of GM autos today, an additional 400,000 E85/gasoline engines will be produced in 2006 and 2007, GM will make their executives use E85 equipped vehicles, they are like all E85 autos, dual fuel capable.

More and more E85 pumps are being installed in the midwest, the first large user of Ethanol E85...by the way, they seem to be used already in many Minnesota cities. Walmart here in Cedar Rapids and other Iowa cities sell a 10% Ethanol mix on ALL octane ratings on all pumps.

The midwest solution is here now, not stuck in some politician/environmentalists hate tank. A new Biodiesel plant just broke ground in southern Iowa and new Ethanol plants are coming on line NOW. 4 Billion gallons of Ethanol is already being manufactured this year in some 140 factories.

As an aside, I feel so sad for my former state of New York, both senators, including the Arkansas hillbilly, refuse to push for Ethanol...they have been captured by political demagoguery. Upstate New York is a disaster area for farming and ignorance...yes, I said ignorance. Seneca County NY, a once thriving farm belt county, looks like a third world country. The so-called environmentalists in New York State have decreed that there will be no Ethanol production, no wind farms (NO NEW ELECTRICAL DISTRIBUTION LINES CAN BE BUILT), no STINKING Ethanol plant...sigh, what an ignorant bunch of hicks (my thoughts). Governor Patacki has even suggested removing all NYS taxes on Ethanol fuel and is for Ethanol production as a way to assist his farmers.

So it looks like the Midwest is they only place going great guns on Ethanol manufacture and distribution...that's a surprise. Modification for E85 engines does not appear to cost (if anything) more than a couple of hundred dollars on new cars and trucks.

E85 prices have been cut May 1st here in Iowa and Minnesota by 85 cents a gallon to around a $1.90 a gallon. Any subsidy is a heck of a lot less than spending billions for oil subsidies.

Ford is mumbling about using E85 in their Hybrid Escapes...they are looking for a way to justify the $4,000 to $6,000 premium on their Hybrid models. Please do not say Hybrid and E85 the same breath, one is a Rube Goldberg adaptation and the other is the E85 practical solution.

Granted, E85 autos will only be using Ethanol in the Midwest, and probably slowly as it spreads to the East Coast and South, putting the millions of acres of unused and marginal lands into corn and switch grass production. Of course, biodiesel (made from soybeans right now) has the same fate...being only used in Midwest to Eastern/Southern states and not in the far West...what a pity.

seniorjose · May 2006

I am sorry, the Prius does not have a recharge limitation, you are thinking about electric cars. Ethanol is a direct replacement for oil so it leaves the saudi oil for China.

socala4 · May 2006

Give us some practical solutions not politics as usual.

During 2005, 3.6% of new passenger vehicles in the US were diesel.

Of course, that means that 96.4% of new vehicles ran on something else. My guess is that virtually all of those used gasoline.

Any fuel that doesn't address this reality is far from practical, at least during the short- to medium-term. It would be necessary to radically alter or quickly retire the existing fleet of vehicles, and to drastically change purchasing habits/ choices, before anything related to diesel could offer a practical alternative or drastically reduce gasoline consumption in the US. A solution that lacks widespread adoption and an adequate distribution network is not a solution.

gagrice · May 2006

Ethanol is a direct replacement for oil so it leaves the saudi oil for China.

Ethanol is just adding another step in the use of fossil fuel. Tell me how you can produce ethanol without using oil? Then tell me how you plan to produce ethanol from switchgrass when the scientists say the process is at least ten years in the future. Then could you please tell all of us how many small farmers you know that are making anything from ethanol. It is all going into mega ag corporation pockets. Along with the politicians bought with corn and ethanol money. One of the few times I agree with NE politics, when they reject this gigantic scam on the American public. The one positive aspect is that it will create jobs in the midwest. The downside is the rest of the country will have to carry the weight of this boondoggle.

snakeweasel · May 2006

Hybrids do NOT use E85

Never said that they do.

The midwest solution is here now,

It isn't the solution, it could be part of the temporary fix that will see us through to the solution (whatever that may be) but it isn't the solution.

Walmart here in Cedar Rapids and other Iowa cities sell a 10% Ethanol mix on ALL octane ratings on all pumps.

They sell it because its a federal mandate, supposively for cleaner air. It does two things, first it make their political contributors (companies like ADM) rich, secondly it makes them look like they are doing something to make the air cleaner.

4 Billion gallons of Ethanol is already being manufactured this year in some 140 factories.

which is just 2.5% of what we would need if we were using E85 in all our vehicles.

As an aside, I feel so sad for my former state of New York, both senators, including the Arkansas hillbilly, refuse to push for Ethanol...

Well maybe Hillary isn't so bad, FWIW shes an IL suburbanite (while we don't like to admit it she went to the same high school I went to). Anyway if the government has to push ethanol usage it means that market forces aren't. If market forces are not pushing ethanol then its not economically feesable. I say let the market decide.

Please do not say Hybrid and E85 the same breath, one is a Rube Goldberg adaptation and the other is the E85 practical solution.

Why not? Why cant you put an E85 engine in a hybrid? It would be no different than a regular hybrid other than the engine could use E-85.

seniorjose · May 2006

Dumb small farmers are a thing of the past, being paid to not work on government welfare. Smart farmers are the future, whether small or large. Corn for ethanol production brings a 10 cent a bushel premium. There are many small farmers and small farmer coops in the midwest. the boondoggle are the politicians and their oil-fired political action committees, such as the NYS senators.

We had to crawl before we can walk and we are now beyond the crawling stage where Ethanol is being used...NOT to use Saudi oil. It is an alternate fuel for the Midwest and the East/South. My dad was a small farmer from upstate New York and this holds promise for all small farmers. The scam is not being fostered on the country...the scam is being done by the Jihads and terrorists.

Paying $2.00 or less a gallon for E85 is dramatic progress. Politicians bought with corn and ethanol money are a heck of a lot better politicians than those bought with Saudi money (by the way, politicians are a factor of American democracy and always have been).

At least Ethanol and Biodiesel create an alternative fuels that can be used to help dramatically heighten energy independence. Thus Ethanol and Biodiesel plus opening up Alaska oil operations and continental shelf drilling will help the USA become energy independent.

There has to be better ways and answers that satisfy the majority of Americans...remember, majority rules without bothering the minority.

gagrice · May 2006

Ethanol and Biodiesel plus opening up Alaska oil operations and continental shelf drilling will help the USA become energy independent.

I think we are closer on this than I first suspected. I am for alternatives to oil. I don't believe we will ever be oil independent. We can take a bite out of the imports. For ethanol to be practical it has to be processed close to the market. This last energy bill with the kneejerk mandate for ethanol to replace MTBE is directly raising the price of gasoline across the nation. When you have to truck millions of gallons of ethanol to the West Coast it is no wonder that we are paying $3.35 for unleaded gas. Biodiesel is a viable alternative to diesel. It also has limitations that have to be considered when switching from fossil diesel.

We are also on the same page agreeing that we have the best Congress money can buy. I don't think you would be quite so exuberant about ethanol if you were getting the ethanol shaft as we in CA are.

Dumb small farmers are a thing of the past, being paid to not work on government welfare.

Owning a small MN farm and having several friends that actually live off of their farms, I find your harsh assessment incorrect. I do not know of a one that lives off of government welfare. Especially not to the extent of what we give to mega farmers and corporate giants like ADM. All the farmers I know have small to medium dairy farms. They work 365 days a year to produce enough milk to survive.

We have price controls on milk in CA because all the small dairy farmers were run out of business by big operators. Then they tried to rip off the public. It looks like we will see the same thing happen with ethanol.

seniorjose · May 2006

E85 will have to sell for 75% of unleaded regular to break even.

E85 is now starting to sell for 85 cents a gallon less than regular gasoline, about $2.00 or less a gallon. At least the Hybrid Rube Goldberg designed excess costs are not going to impact the Ethanol market, what a disaster in the making. Remember that Hybrids were brought to market only to maximize additional auto manufacturers profits. These troublesome vehicles have been with us long enough to make the over $5,000 battery pack replacement a very nervous time for owners.

Minnesota now leads E85 pumps with Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois not far behind. With the additional 400,000 GM mostly and small number of Ford vehicles coming on line, E85 is becoming a part of the Midwest energy scene. ...one E85 pump in southern California? I am surprised because Ethanol is not a viable product for California. Water is too valuable a commodity in the dessert environment than to grow corn, switch grass or whatever is the new product for Ethanol...seems like energy independence will be a regional solution.

"As an aside, an experimental usage of tight bundles of common ordinary grass to fire an electric generating plant that normally uses other sources of energy is being evaluated in Southern Iowa. Initial results are very encouraging...hmmm, grass for electricity too! At least the midwest is looking for solutions, not screeching and whining and throwing temper tantrums as politicians are wont to do!"

E85 (Ethanol) is not he end all to beat all, but a viable (here now) alternative to Osama Bib Laden's energy policy. There will be more alternatives for different regions of the United States, one size does not fit all.
It may affect population shifts in the USA, after all, we cannot make the dessert bloom forever using high priced energy.

gagrice · May 2006

one E85 pump in southern California?

RTC is owned by Pearson Ford. They have been a leader in alternative transportation and fuels. I checked a couple days ago and they are now selling E85 for $2.99 vs unleaded at $3.35. I have no idea how many vehicles they serve. It may be for fleet services.

seniorjose · May 2006

The East coast solution to Ethanol is ready for execution...however, the politicians are dragging their feet a bit in permitting Ethanol plants. Seems that there are a number of pols who cannot understand what Ethanol is, gee, we elect some sorry vacuums.

ADM and agriculture in general are solving the MTBF debacle. Ramping up will take time. However, ADM and other companies are owned by average Joe stockholders who expect a profit from their investment...and they don't have to worry about dry holes in the ground. It is a viable solution whose time is now, for how long we do not know. At least the average auto can use ethanol, not like the huge price premium on the Rube Goldberg hybrids that nobody can repair...their teething problems are downright legendary.

gagrice · May 2006

Seems that there are a number of pols who cannot understand what Ethanol is

They do know what it is and that is why they are dragging their feet. Just suppose they allow the permits to build a still in a given location. Do you recall the hassle in St Paul with an ethanol plant there? They STINK to high heaven. Also many of the new ethanol plants on the drawing board are using coal as an energy source. That adds more STINK to the location. I would rather have a nuclear facility on my farm than an ethanol plant any day of the week. I don't think you are assessing this whole ethanol situation realistically. Or you own a huge chunk of ADM.

jae5 · May 2006

Well maybe Hillary isn't so bad, FWIW shes an IL suburbanite (while we don't like to admit it she went to the same high school I went to).

Now, now, SW. Hiliary's a homegirl, give her a break

- I had to get you on that one.

Arkansas (I mean WalMart-land) isn't that bad. Besides WalMarts on every corner it's given us the hangin' judge from Ft. Smith, White Water scandal...well, maybe it is bad :P

snakeweasel · May 2006

Now, now, SW. Hiliary's a homegirl, give her a break

Can't give her a break, she turned traitor on us and started attending Maine South, why anyone in their right mind would want to go to Maine South High School is beyond me.

Karen_S · May 2006

Go, Corn Racer: GM Pressing NASCAR To Use Ethanol

Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow?

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