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Mercury Milan vs Toyota Camry

124

Comments

  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Looks like Milan/Fusion envy?? :blush:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    well like by its owners then why is the ranking by actual owners at 8.7? and the Milan at 9.6? The Camry also has 10x the reviewers!! :surprise:
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    "Envy"......thats funny. I am not trying to be mean to anyone or put anyone down.

    All I am saying is that the Fusion "test" carries no validity. In my opinion, a "smart" car buyer will not base their decision on a commercial. I believe Ford needs to do more to impress people than a commercial. Thats all I'm saying.

    It is funny that the Fusion was the V6 AWD model.....versus the 4-cylinder Camry and Accord. They should have tested the V6 SE Camry and the V6 Accord. Maybe the "results" would have been different.
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Scape2,

    You realize anyone can make a profile on here and "rank" the cars.

    You could create 100 profiles and rank the same car if you wanted to.......People should do a lot of research and personal investigation before they buy a car.....thats smart.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    People should do a lot of research and personal investigation before they buy a car

    They are, and a lot of them are choosing Fusions and Milans over Camrys and Accords. Why is that so hard to understand? Sales figures don't lie.
  • walterquintwalterquint Member Posts: 89
    On my prior post, I was not referring to that "Fusion Test" marketing campaign. I was referring to a conventional, full-scale comparison test done by a major car mag. I only draw conclusions from instrumented testing procedures.

    That "Fusion Test" has some minor merit, but it's merely a marketing ploy. GM did a similar "test" for the Achieva in the 1990s--those buyers chose the Olds over Honda/Toyota too. Now, the Achieva is littering junkyards (including mine).

    IMO, many are choosing the Fusion/Milan over the Camry because of its features, looks and price. It's consistently $2500 less than Camry/Accord. That does not make the Milan a better car, or even an equal one. As I noted, Ford likely took some minor engineering shortcuts to reach that lower price.

    In 2004, I bought an Alero. It saved me $3k over a Mazda6 and $5k over a Camry. The symphony of squeaks/rattles in my Alero keeps me company on long trips. I wonder if Fusion/Milan owners will be similarly annoyed, over time ??
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The problem is tests done by the automotive media are not necessarily reflective of the general car buying public. Just look at all the cars that the media hates but that the public continues to buy. There are buyers who prefer the styling of the Sonata over all the other cars. It's all subjective.

    There should be no argument that the Fusion handles better than the Camry. So does the Accord. Most people wouldn't notice that unless you put them on a test track and specifically asked them. Or put all 3 cars side by side and let folks rank their styling. Again - something you wouldn't normally do outside of this type of test.

    Automotive writers are like film critics - they're evaluating vehicles entirely differently than an average buyer would evaluate them.

    How, then, is Ford supposed to get this type of real world test without paying for it? Would C&D or MT or Edmunds go out and pay for this type of test? Of course not. The reason they outsourced it to C&D and R&T was to ensure that it was a fair test.

    The only thing this test points out is that the Fusion is competitive and should be considered. This gets people in the showroom that would have otherwise written off the Fusion and once they actually see it and drive it they end up buying one.

    Of course it's advertising but to say it's biased or not valid is just sour grapes.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "It is funny that the Fusion was the V6 AWD model.....versus the 4-cylinder Camry and Accord. They should have tested the V6 SE Camry and the V6 Accord. Maybe the "results" would have been different. "

    This statement shows that you did not read the entire article. The Camry/Accord were V6's. So is the Camry/Accord offerning stability control and the Fusion not an issue?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They should have tested the V6 SE Camry and the V6 Accord. Maybe the "results" would have been different

    Eh, not quite. The Ford commercial at least used V6 models of all cars. Should they have used the best handling variant of all of them (Camry SE)? Yeah, since the one of the only three criteria the commercial measured was handling.
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    In one of the first articles I read about the test, the author said the camry was a 4-cylinder. That stuck out right away to me......Maybe the newer tests used the V6.

    Also, using an "all-wheel drive" car against two without awd.........I really don't care what the results were. All I was saying is that the "advertisement" was a ploy/marketing scheme and that people should do research themselves. Some people are too impressionable and will be unhappy once they realize they made the wrong decision, no matter which vehicle they purchase...thats all.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I really don't care what the results were. All I was saying is that the "advertisement" was a ploy/marketing scheme

    I don't care either, but to me it was just an ad. The purpose of the ad, IMO, was really just to point out that Milan/Fusion can be had with AWD and to show that advantages of AWD.

    Now most will probably decide not to buy that feature, but this is no different than Camry, Accord, Altima touting their V6 HP numbers, when most buyers end up buying the 4 cyl.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No, all the tests used V6 models of all 3 vehicles. The fact that the Fusion offers AWD and the other 2 don't is a perfectly valid comparison.

    The "winner" in any of these tests is almost 100% subjective and doesn't prove anything objective. It merely proves that under the right circumstances some people prefer the Fusion to the Camry and Accord. If you don't understand that then you're just biased.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Not bias. Just that some cannot understand that there are cars that are every bit as good as the Camry/Accord. Each of these cars was tested under the same critera. These folks were ordinary people, not paid by Ford, not Ford employees. I'm sure each one wasn't taken into the concrete cell and beaten by a Ford gustapo to vote for the Fusion.. ;)
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    You are right, "...doesn't prove anything..."

    Of course some people will prefer theFusion over Camry or Accord.

    Of course I am biased. I test drove both of those cars and picked the Camry. Someone who picked the Accord will be biased toward accord, just as someone who picked the Fusion will be biased toward the fusion. That is normal in my opinion. Who wants to think or feel like they made the wrong decision purchasing one of those cars?
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Milan/Fusion and Camry/Avalon are different kind of vehicles. One is for younger crowd who prefer spirited and sporty ride. And later is for older tired crowd who prefer soft and quiet ride.

    Wow, was that a slam or what? Yeah, my TCH may fit that description, but the SE I drove didn't seem like a car for the "older tired" crowd.

    I feel the real "vote" should come not from advertisements but from the buying public, who makes choices with the $$$'s they spend.

    How many Milans will they sell in 2007? Is that because they are limited production or because that's all of the "highly intelligent" people out there that are willing to purchase one?
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    They are, and a lot of them are choosing Fusions and Milans over Camrys and Accords. Why is that so hard to understand? Sales figures don't lie.

    What are the figures? I really don't know? Is Fusion / Milan actually outselling Camry and Accord?

    Or is it simply a "lot" of people. Everyone knows there are a "lot" of people who will do anything or try anything. I'm guessing (no stastics, just a guess) there are 25% of the FORD buyers that simply buy because it's FORD and another 25% that buy FORD because of the perception that they are buying "AMERICAN". Toyota will never compete in the "Redneck" market. (Well now that they are racing, maybe they will) Ford and GM both understand that and advertise accordingly to maximize that benefit.

    Let me appologize now for the Redneck remark. Nothing personal, it's about an attitude, not a geographical reference (I'm a redneck hillbilly myself)
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Just that some cannot understand that there are cars that are every bit as good as the Camry/Accord

    AMEN, My Infiniti FX45 that I traded for the TCH was heads and shoulders a better car than the Camry.

    However the problem with "as good" means your'e still looking at very subjective traits. Power and handling are always tested by M/T and C&D at "the limits". Typically limits no one ever approaches.
    Good means a lot of different things. To me a "GOOD" car, holds it's resale value, is reliable, rides comfortabley, handles safely, looks attractive. Unfortunately only time will tell on some of these traits. That's why most people use past performance to predict future behavor. That's why many prefer the Honda and camry over Ford and GM. I won't buy an ugly car, but I also won't buy one that out depreciates its peers reguardless of its handling or looks
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So many things to respond to.......

    Milans are simply a different trim level Fusion. Think of it as a Fusion M. Ford is selling around 17K Fusions and Milans per month and 40% of those are conquest sales (buyers who switch to a Fusion/Milan from a non-Ford brand). These are former Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Saturn, etc. drivers.

    Ford just took top honors in JD Power Initial Quality Survey. Mercury was #2 behind Lexus. They were also #2 in the 2006 3 yr reliability survey. So far the Fusion is outperforming both the Camry and Accord in reliability. Projected resale values for the Fusion and Milan are higher than Camry and 1% lower than Accord (3 yrs) according to the Automotive Lease Guide.

    Ford has dramatically improved quality while dropping rental fleet sales and overproduction. Overproduction leads to big incentives which reduces resale values. Large rental fleet sales leads to a glut of used cars which kills resale values. This is what happened to the Taurus and why Ford killed it. So far they are managing production levels with minimal incentives and maintaining high quality.

    This is not 1985 anymore and the landscape has changed. Toyota is now plagued with reliability problems (engine sludge, transmission problems, Tundra camshaft failures) and the Fusion is more reliable than a Camry. Who woulda thunk it?
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    and the Fusion is more reliable than a Camry. Who woulda thunk it?

    Still an unsubstantiated claim. My last Ford was a 2004 model. Had a rearend replaced and lost $12,000 in depreciation in one year. Ouch, I'm still hurting on that one. Won't get over it just by seeing JD Powers numbers.

    I guess it just goes to show, build a better car; more reliable than the Asians and Germans and get the car rags to rate them high and perhaps your stock will go beyond junk status.

    Sorry, still too risky for me to jump on this band wagon just yet.

    I don't even want to remember 1985. Then again maybe I do. My 86 Lincoln was junk and back then my BMW was reliable. Oh for the days to return when the Germans start making reliable cars again!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It is 100% substantiated by both Consumer Reports and Ford's own internal data plus a few other sources I think. I'll go find the link if you don't believe it.

    You don't say which 2004 Ford model you purchased. There is a big difference in the new models like the Fusion, Milan, New Taurus (500), Expedition, F150 and the older models like the old Taurus and Focus. All vehicles introduced since 2004 have done much better than average. The others will catch up as they are redesigned. One example of the change: the Edge and MKZ were held up for 3 weeks at launch because Ford will not release vehicles until the production line can go 5 straight days without a single production line defect.

    The facts are all there if you simply choose to believe them.
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    AMEN, My Infiniti FX45 that I traded for the TCH was heads and shoulders a better car than the Camry.

    At twice the cost, I would certainly hope so. Trying to explain why you would pay around $50K or more for a car no better than the Camry would be a tough thing to do, now wouldn't it?
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    You don't say which 2004 Ford model you purchased

    It was an Expedition EB. $46,000 MSRP, 20,000 miles later a $24,000 trade in value ( best offer after several dealers). It was in MINT condition and loaded.

    I can see myself with one someday if I needed a low milage 4x4 but I will never buy a new one again
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Trying to explain why you would pay around $50K or more for a car no better than the Camry would be a tough thing to do, now wouldn't it?

    Sarcasm seems to go over the head of most posters in this thread. So does a few other things. I'll leave you folks alone now to enjoy your Fords.

    Just about anyone that pays $50,000 for a car should indeed have a hard time explaining it according to the statistics quoted in this thread. Just how much value can you place in a little better handling and ride and really justify it. In most cases the luxury purchase does not provide any additional benefits other than prestige. Luxury purchases don't really make sense, but to those that can afford them they don't have to.

    (BTW, Actually I only had $10,000 more in the FX than what the TCH cost. Combined with 1.9% financing on the FX it was a decent purchase and a great car as well.)
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    i think at least now the big 3 are competitive w/ honda and toyota on quality..i had a 79 pinto that was quite inferior to a 79 corolla or civic i am sure...but i think my 99 cavalier, 05 sunfire and 07 focus are very good cars and i am quite happy with them...same with a 86 mustang i had but i did notice it had a aluminum engine head gasket (cover?) that rusted out in 8 NH winters but other than thst i really liked car...i bought a used 1991 accord and that had a cast iron head gasket, so i was very impressed by that...after hearing how great japanese cars are i was surprised at some of things that went wrong on that car...door handle broke, igniton problems, headlight switch broke, front end problems, fender was falling off, glove compartment handle broke....loved the engine though...just was surprised at some of the things that happened w/ the honda, even with its age
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Aluminum doesn't rust - but the gasket can rot away.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You were the victim of high gas prices reducing demand for large SUVs. Wouldn't have mattered if it was a different brand.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Milan is superior to Camry according to owners ratings at

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/ratings/ratingsIndex.jsp?usein=n

    Go and check what owners say. I think it ends this discussion.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Experts rate the Camry slightly higher than the Milan - consumers slightly lower. Mercury has like 34 consumers rating it. Camry 300+. I would not say that it "ends this discussion." Of course, that is my opinion.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Who are "experts"? Like auto journalists? I can hardly call them the "experts".

    I thought cars are built for consumers. Experts do not drive Camries everyday while customers do rather take short test drives. IMHO they are more impressed by Toyota as a company than by cars they make. Toyota makes good effective engines working on premium gas but thats not enough to make a good car.
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Savetheland,

    I assume you own a Milan. I assume the other person owns a Camry. No one wants to think their car is a bad car or that they should have purchased a different car.

    I don't care what someone tells me or how someone rates the car. I test drove 7 cars for about a half hour to an hour a piece and then bought one, along with doing some research.

    It all depends on what you like. Some people think the Camry is better. Some people think the Milan is better. Who is right? I don't think anyone is wrong.

    I've heard plenty of crap from Milan owners, I guess I'll tell them to post on Edmunds so there are more consumer ratings. Anyway, most people come to these sites to complain.....AND, is it possible some people are filling out phony ratings? I wonder??
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    stlpike07 there are too problems with your post. First I do not own Milan, Fusion, Mazda6 or MKZ and not going to, at least in near future. I certainly not going to buy car like Camry ever - here may be you are right. Secondly owners do not complain about Milan but complain a lot about Camry. Thats what was my point - what owners think about their cars. And note that people who rate cars at Edmunds understand something about cars.

    I also believe in CR reliability ratings since it is only accepted reliability rating in USA. And they also rated Milan higher than Camry (and Accord).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    has pounded it into consumers heads that anything Camry or Accord is just plain better, no questions asked.. However with forums like these and the hundreds of others across the internet.. the consumer will rule!
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Maybe so....However, My 2007 Camry is fine. A friend who has a Milan hates it and always wants to ride with me rather than driving the both of us.

    What does that say?
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Camrys are great cars. I don't think thats media hype. It is very unfortunate that some people are having so many problems with their vehicles. I feel for them.....However, just because there aren't hundreds of posts about people hating their Milans doesn't mean everyone is happy with that car.

    I would imagine that practially every car, if not every car has multiple TSB's out for it and that a small percentage of owners experience problems. A friend who drives a Ferarri was having problems with his car. I don't have the money to buy one, but if I did, would that affect my decision to buy one? Probably not.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I do not like Camry not because of unreliability but because how it drives. Well I do not like if car has issues from day one either.

    You say that only unhappy Camry owners and only happy Milan owners rate their cars on Edmunds. Don’t you find this statement to say the least inconsistent? If there are so many unhappy Milan owners - where they are hiding? Didn’t you think may be your friend just chose a wrong type of car? May he Camry/Buick type of guy but went instead for sporty car. It is not like Milan has a problem - it is rather your friend’s problem of choice.
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Your are misconstruing what I said about the ratings.

    As far as the ride, I understand that. Some people like a soft ride, and some people like to feel every bump in the road. I like smooth rides, versus bumping around. Thats why I got my Camry.

    Unhappy Milan owners don't necessarily go online, to sites like edmunds, to write up car complaints.

    "May he Camry/Buick type of guy but went instead for sporty car. It is not like Milan has a problem - it is rather your friend’s problem of choice." Funny you say that, so what your saying is that if someone disagrees with you they are wrong? That doesn't make sense.....I'm not going to argue though.

    What does make sense, and I hope we can agree, is that every car manufacturer has some unhappy car owners. Every car that is manufactured on an assembly line is not perfect. Can we agree to that?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    A friend who has a Milan hates it and always wants to ride with me rather than driving the both of us.

    What does that say?

    Maybe he is just feeding you that line because he is a cheapskate and would rather burn your gas ;) .

    Why exactly does he "hate" his car?
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    I don't think he is a cheapskate...he has the basic stereo (I have the JBL stereo) so he may be a little jealous. HE drives his car a lot. I have fun riding with him, but I would rather drive my car anyway.

    He said the ride has gotten a lot bumpier and that he is experiencing a lof of rattles. He has had some complaints about acceleration delay when he steps on the gas. I don't know what to say about that one.

    I think some people need to take the time to get used to how a car drives and adapt their style of driving. I test drove 7 cars before I bought my camry. Some cars didn't accelerate for a few seconds after I stomped on the gas. The Camry did....who knows? People are having problems with every kind of car it seems.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    "Unhappy Milan owners don't necessarily go online, to sites like edmunds, to write up car complaints."

    How do you know that? You mean they are not as smart as happy Milan owners?

    But anyway, Camry is roomier inside and engine is smoother. It is different kind of animal. I would rather compare it with Buick than Milan. Milan is more like Accord in interior room and ride. Bumpy ride is normal. It means suspension is tight. If your friend has V6 Duratec – it does not have enough torque at low rpm. I noticed that Fusion does not accelerate in city without pushing rpm up (and therefore engine noise). But at high speeds it is pretty good. Milan is very comfortable on freeway and mountain roads. Camry on the other hand is kinda barge.

    My original post was about lot of unsatisfied customers new Camry generated and it may affect on future Camry sales. Nothing is permanent. Sooner or later Camry will start loosing customers. It cannot lock them forever. And note that Camry also is uncool type of car. If it is uncool and have issues from day at same time who is going to buy another one when time comes? There are a lot of excellent choices around and Milan is one of them.
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    "How do you know that? You mean they are not as smart as happy Milan owners?" Only 39 people have rated the vehicle, so you could take that as there aren't many happy customers either. 39 out of how many thousands of owners" Same can be said with the Camry......interesting.

    The Milan and Camry are definitely two different cars, just like the Accord and Camry are two very different cars.

    I agree with you about sales. When someone comes along and really creates a "better" vehicle it will happen. And by that I mean a better sales and marketing plan, a better public relations plan, a betterbrand image, and a better integrated marketing communications campaign. It is possible that it can be done. But other manufacturers have a lot of work to do before that happens.

    That would be like the brand Sony becoming inferior to the Radioshack brand RCA......not very likely, but it could happen. Anything is possible, right?
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Sony is not the hottest brand in consumer electronics anymore. If you consider DVD recorders - JVC makes better ones. Still digital cameras - Kodak and Canon make better cameras than Sony, even though Sony initially was a market leader.

    Camcorders - Panasonic and Canon make better camcorders overall, but Sony camcorders are better in audio recording and low light environment.

    TV sets. Until recently Sony was making best tube TV sets. But now Sony is just another brand. Sharp and Samsung are making better LCD TVs for less as an example.

    HiFi audio – Sony never was a leader here let alone Hi End. Sony made good CD players, but it is irrelevant today. Unless you want super audio.

    Game consoles – Sony lost its leadership to Microsoft recently.

    Walkman – it is the old news. Now Apple is leading this sector. Computers – best computers for price are made by Dell. Even HP makes better laptops than Sony. Sony is absolutely irrelevant in computers.

    Sony actually makes a lot of cheap and dull stuff today and is not leader in any field anymore.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    There is a Steeda Fusion. 0-60 in the low 6's. On my daughters soccer team there is a guy who modified a Milan Premier V6 much like the Steeda package. Took me for a ride and there was a very noticable difference in power. Some in the sedan room laughed at me, with the Steeda article it was sweet revenge. There is talk on the net about a 240HP 3.0, and a 180HP I4 coming in 2009. Ford is playing with turbo's!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The 240hp 3.0 is not a turbo. There is a rumored twin turbo 2.5L putting out 260 hp for the 09 model. Twin turbo 3.5L and even some V8s are supposedly being tested.
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Thank you for all of the technology information.

    I was trying to make a simple comparison, thats all.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    All I wanted to say that Toyota like Sony does not dominate in any particular sector. It does not make best sedan, or best SUV and etc.
  • makigrlmakigrl Member Posts: 19
    Is that why i'm seeing discounts on Toyota's at dealerships not just the Minvans but like Tacomas or Tundra one or the other selling $7,000 of off msrp. Not just American trucks and Suv's with the $7- 10,000 something discounts of msrp. $5,000 something of msrp for the Avalon. I even saw one selling at least a couple of 07 Cammry's at around $3,800 in discounts. Taking the $500 factory cash back and adding an additional $3,500 in cash back.

    I know Toyota is spose to be the number one car but I see them sometimes offer $3-4,000 cash back on Camry's. You almost never find an accord discounted below probably $1,-2,000. You never see an Accord where they tell you your saving $4,000 off msrp.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    "$3-4,000 cash back on Camry's." I wish! I have never heard of such a thing. Anyone else?
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    It is normal for Camry this time of the year. It is end of model year so they sell new cars as an one year old ones. I bought my Sable with $5,000 discount and my friend bought Camrys twice with this kind of discount.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Toyota is advertising $500 cash back on the Corolla, $0 on Camry in my part of the country. I also looked at the Edmunds site to see if they have any deals - none in Ohio and PA, $500 in the California area (not $5,000). One of my local dealers will do about invoice on an '07, but they only had 2.

    If you can point me to a dealer that has a $5,000 discount on a Camry, I will go, buy it, and re-sell it for a profit!
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Go Dublin Toyota

    http://www.dublintoyota.com/Default.aspx?page=default

    Neeless to say that you have to negotiate price.
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