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2007 Hyundai Accent v 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift
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Comments
Accent: $13,040 price + 6.5% tax + $300 license/fees (plug in your own numbers) = $14,177. Put 10% down, finance $12,759 at 7% (pretty good rate these days) for 60 months, total interest is $2400.
Yaris: $14,950 price + 6.5% tax + $300 license/fees = $16,222. Put 10% down, finance $14,600 at 7% for 60 months, total interest is $2746. Difference is $346 (assuming very few car loans are paid off early, as you noted).
Plus add the costs of any repairs on the Yaris in years 4 and 5 that are not covered by Toyota's bumper-to-bumper warranty (but would be covered under Hyundai's 5-year b-to-b warranty). Plus you save about $60/year on roadside assistance (e.g. AAA) fees, which are paid for by Hyundai (very nice little perk, if you have a spouse who likes to lock the keys in the car, or gets a flat tire etc.).
The savings with the Accent just keep adding up! The main risk with the Accent might be the trouble you will have figuring out what to do with all that extra money.
I've already explained how much I drive in a year. Do you want it down to the 1/10th of a mile? You haven't been too precise in other matters (like on how many cars Toyota makes compared to Hyundai)--why are you so picky on that one? Is it because I used some facts to point out that the average driver drives not 15k a year, as you claimed, but 12k?
As for risk, there is also the risk associated with driving around in a small car without safety features such as side airbags and ABS. There is the greater risk of driving a car with lesser crash protection than another car. I find those risks harder to accept than any risk there may be in differences in reliability.
But if you think these short-term reliability studies ARE valid, OK by me. The fact that Hyundai topped Toyota in the latest IQS is significant then, isn't it?
IF you add in the extra miles in gas, the Yaris gobbles up all of your "extra" savings too... guess you just forgot that we figured 10k per (since we were using a cash buyer driving that little).
And as for wanting it to the 1/10th of a mile, as a matter of fact, YES, I DO. Especially when you want to break your "savings" down to a possible savings of $60 in roadside assistance... sheesh, who's nickel and diming now? Seems a 10% gas mileage difference is equally significant, but whatever...
I actually HAVE documentation from ALG (trying to find a link, but I don't think they publish it online) that states the average mileage for a non-luxury car for 2004 (not 2001), was almost 14700... A little closer to 15k than 12k, but again, whatever...
And in the Yaris you cite in your example (remember, you loaded it up to get your "savings"), you DO get ABS and Side Airbags, so not sure where you're trying to go with your "risk" argument.
T
I'll let you in on a another secret here too... it's a set-up . I think you realize how Hyundai does in comparison in almost every other test conducted by JD Power over the last 10 years (even the recent ones).
My hunch is, you'll only grant validity to the one Hyundai eeks out, and claim everything else is irrelevant or too old (too old being three years...).
T
Doesn't matter, we are talking about Accent vs. Yaris, not Hyundai vs. Toyota...you are being way off-topic here. Plus, both are new cars (especially Hyundai's) so reliablity is a moot point to be even discussing...give it a few years and then we'll chat
And your second "secret", I am puzzled too, again off-topic, but even so, the fact remains Hyundai has made the biggest jump in the auto industry, as far as quality and reliabilty are concerned...compare Toyota when they are relatively new to the US markets vs. Hyundai present time, that should be somewhat fair...
The calculations I provided on gas savings (and finance savings and repair savings) were based on an "average" driver who drives 12k a year (please share that ALG link with us when you find it, try Google), finances the car, and owns it for at least five years. I don't consider savings of $300 ($60 a year for five years) nickel-and-diming. If you do, then wouldn't the $500 in gas savings over five years for the Yaris be nickel-and-diming also? $300 a pop adds up to big money: about $350 in finance savings, $300 in roadside assistance savings, some $$$ in repair savings, plus the savings in depreciation of about $500. Subtract the $500 in gas savings on the Yaris, and you are way ahead with the Accent. Plus outside of the financial advantages, you get a car with more room, a more comfortable driving position, more power, better crash-test scores, more standard safety features, more standard convenience features, and a longer warranty. I think that spells "Value".
The Yaris and Accent I used in my example earlier (which you cited also btw) were well-equipped, with power package, alloys, ABS, and side airbags. I equipped the two cars as closely as possible, at least in pixels. Real-world availability is another matter. The Accent SE comes standard with all that equipment, so I know I can buy one with ABS and side bags. I don't know that for the Yaris. I did ask you awhile back how many Yaris hatches with stick, ABS, and side bags you have seen at your dealership. You chose not to answer the question.
Toyota sold 8.12 million vehicles in 2005 worldwide, while Hyundai sold 3.72 million vehicles. Even if you take the Kia portion out, that is still nowhere near 20:1...
World 2005 - (a little over 2:1 but probably close to 3:1 excluding Kia figures)
In the US:
Toyota in 2005: 2.26 million vehicles
Hyundai in 2005: 0.42 million vehicles
US 2005 (a little over 5:1)
2006 YTD (thru. Sept):
Toyota: 1.93 million
Hyundai: 0.36 million
US 2006 YTD (the same as above - a little over 5:1)
20:1 would not make Hyundai the 6th largest automaker in the world
And if real world availability of the Yaris is the best you can do... you're really grasping at straws now lol.
Seems I remember how you spelled value backy... wasn't it F-I-T (despite being more expensive, less equipped, and shorter warrantied)?
A customer of mine today gave an interesting analogy (I'm paraphrasing here):
"Hyundai is in a way like the lifetime D student that somehow managed to pull out a few B's and A's for a couple semester's. Sure, it MAY be a sign of a legitimate turn-around, but you can't just IGNORE his history. If Hyundai can keep it up for more than a few years, they'll have more believers. Until then, they still are what they were."
If you want to take the chance that despite their history they have legitimately turned it around, then fine, it's a free country.
Until they PROVE otherwise (through more than just a handful of short-term awards), your money is better spent on something that has better predicted reliability, better gas mileage, better resale, and a PROVEN history.
And to top it off, my one and only true shot, it's NOT a Hyundai... In today's world, as much as you are blinded to the fact, that counts. It may not be fair, or right, or whatever, but it's what you get when a lot of people still view the company as the "crooked H".
T
Fine! I have no issue what so ever in waiting to see if it turns out like you guys think it will.
But that's the whole point. You believe Hyundai has turned the corner. I'm not sold, and neither is a LOT of the public... And despite making MAJOR strides, they still don't rate well long term against Toyota.
IF and when they do, the "value" argument may be valid. But until then, even looking back 3 years paints very different pictures of the two brands.
In three years, I may have to eat crow, I may not. There is currently less risk involved going with a proven winner though. Hyundai isn't, and Toyota is.
So if they are within a few hundred bucks of one another and you WEREN'T a Hyundai/Toyota owner to start with, what would the intelligent decision be? Going with an unknown that just started building "quality" in the last three years? Really?
Let's just wait and see...
Until then though, the Yaris is the better choice.
T
Your attempts to extricate yourself from your errors of fact used to be amusing; now they are getting old.
Also I'd really appreciate it if you'd make an attempt to read my posts. I explained before why I prefer the Accent over the Fit. I'm not going to cover that ground again here, since it's off-topic.
BTW, your customer's analogy is amusing too. Most college students graduate in 4-5 years. Hyundai has had a solid record of reliability for at least that long. For instance, go look at how many below-average reliability scores the Accent has had in the past five years in CR's rankings. Zero. The record over that time since 2001 is two average, one above average, one much better than average (and not enough data for 2005). Hyundai overall, across its entire lineup, has had TWO below-average scores in the past five years. And one of those, for 2001 on the XG300, is on a car that isn't made anymore. And that is a "D average"? Not nearly. More like a solid B at worst.
How many more years does Hyundai have to have solid reliability scores before some people accept it's not the Hyundai of old? For Toyota bigots (including Toyota salespeople), it will always be "a few more years", won't it? Otherwise there won't be a reason for buyers to spend a lot more on cars like the Yaris than for cars like the Accent.
I do agree with you on at least one thing: the shot you and others like to repeat, "it's NOT a Hyundai," is not fair, or correct. But then, there are still people who won't buy a Japanese car because they remember the low-quality tin boxes from Japan from the '60s and early '70s, or maybe just because they remember Pearl Harbor. Not valid reasons in my opinion, but that's what you get when people have long memories. Their loss, their missed opportunity.
1) When it came to value you considered the more expensive, less equipped, and less warrantied Honda Fit your "top choice".
You never did DEFINE value now did you? I guess for you it all comes down to the comfiest seat (your "blocker" as you stated, for the Fit).
Amusing...
2) When faced with the choice between your trusty family Hyundai or family Mazda, your own son CHOSE to go with the Mazda. No big surprise I must admit... I guess he's just a "bigot" against Hyundai too.
Throwing around words like "bigot" is not only offensive but entirely untrue. Frankly I couldn't care less what you "think" you know about me, because it's coming from someone who accuses others of being biased and "bigotted" when HE/SHE himself/herself won't even admit what they do (except to claim it has nothing to do with the car industry... uh-huh, sure ).
3) You refuse to indicate which sources you find credible. Do you find JD Power a reputable source? How about Consumer Reports? Or ALG?
Between that, and your total lack of definition of "value", no proof WOULD be enough for you, so what's the point?
T
THAT is amusing, because when we try and go back a few years and LOOK, the excuse Hyundai owners give is irrelevance, and that they've improved since then.
So what is it? Is a few years (five or less) too far back to judge reliability? Seems like it is to you, since even a three year old study between the two brands shows a decisive gap.
The reasons I find the Yaris to be a better value than the Accent are actually 4-fold:
The Yaris has better predicted reliability, even based on recent history.
ALG predicts it will hold a nearly double digit advantage in residual (resale).
The Yaris gets better gas-mileage (significant because this is an ECONOMY class of vehicles).
And finallly, the Yaris is not a Hyundai. "Bigotted" as you may think that is, it's the same everywhere in the "real" world. It's why people buy Rolex's and Maytag's, and if you just want to completely ignore the fact that Hyundai was very recently (less than 10 years ago) the laughing stock of the industry, it's certainly your perogative.
But you aren't living in reality if you don't think Toyota on name alone would win a comparo between non-owners of either product...
That's why you need to give it a few years. Unless you want to start granting validity to the studies done 3-5 years ago (from the present)... but you already know how that would work out don't you?
BTW, what's better? An A student or a B one???
T
No one has said Toyota aren't good products, but so are Hyundais, a lot more than you give them credit for.
I will surely stop short of saying they have drawn equal to Toyota. Other than that, I have stated on numerous occasions that there are worse choices, and that, in fact, the Accent is a very nice car.
The current Accent is not however, a better value (for most) than the Yaris for the reasons I listed before. Value is different for everyone. At least I can define it, and don't adapt it to the argument I'm having like others do.
If you want to play the award game, by all means, LET'S! Tell me what source you find reputable, and I'll pull pro-Toyota findings at a significantly higher rate than I will Hyundai. You know it, I know it, backy knows it .
No car manufacturer is perfect. Never said Toyota was. Historically, statistically, perception-wise, whatever... it's indicative that Toyota is FAR closer than Hyundai over the last 5 years though (let's use CR's red/black circles as indicators...).
In 3 years, show me data that they've been comparable. If we look back 3 years even from today though (your own data I believe), they haven't been.
My bias extends so far as to say I would have bought a FIT were there availability and not ridiculous markups above MSRP. Sacrilege!? My third choice would probably be the Versa or Accent... so biased... lol
T
so now i am in the market for a fuel efficient, reliable, utilitarian, fun car to drive for my teenage daughters. i have test driven so far the fit, aveo, versa, rio and accent. this weekend i hope to drive a yaris. i am glad i have been reading this forum, because i think a major strike against buying a car with a small engine with a/c is that realistically it would be hard to get 30 mpg and probably more likely 25 mpg when running the air. i had a 1989 nissan sentra(1.6 liter) that got near 35 mpg but when i added air(for the wife) it was getting maybe 25 mpg! i currently drive a 1999 nissan altima and using the air gets me about the same: this is with a 2.4 liter engine.
i am amazed that toyota would package the base yaris with air! and i believe that because of the electric steering, the real world gas mileage with a/c on would be at least 35 mpg. i don't think that any other subcompact (that i have driven so far) could achieve this. the engines are too small for the drag of power steering and a/c to have great economy.
i am interested in strictly the base liftback with maual. i could go for the abs for $300 and 600 for the side/curtain airbags though. if i want a radio i'll put one in for cheap.
so what is "invoice" any way? is this the price the dealers claim they pay toyota for it?
BTW, given the topic of this discussion... have you looked at the Accent hatch? Better chances of getting a discount on that one, and a nice little car--side bags/curtains are standard.
I have now owned a 5 speed liftback Yaris for 4 weeks, and my mileage is 40mpg, for the first 800 miles, with no highway, but lots of coasting. This car is wonderful IMO.
I highly recommend the liftback with a manual transmission, so you can do coasting on downhills, which will improve your mileage. I live in Pennsylvania, so I cannot comment on mileage with the A/C, for I purchased it in late Sept.
Also, I got 3.5% off of MSRP, for my dealer in Hatfield, PA.
45 mpg. also imagine what you could get if you turned of the ignition while stopped at long lights? hello 45 mpg in the city?
it looks cool and more updated that accent.
more headroom in backseat.
shifter better.
air blowed harder from vents.
has a timing chain rather than belt
air standard
electric steering
drive by wire throttle
back seat folded flat
higher gas mileage
easily accesible oil filter under front of engine.
all aluminum engine
cons:
not as peppy an engine as accent
i would prefer the instrument panel in front of me rather than constantly having to look a little to the side to see my speed.
no tachometer
accent: better interior look and feel.
no armrest
i am tempted to buy the accent but with air standard on the base yaris plus electric steering and throttle i will have to go with the yaris when it comes time to buy!
cheers mates
a newspaper ad car at another toyota dealer in my area was $12860.00: it was probably another convenience package or maybe one with automatic.
it might also be of interest that at the hyundai dealership today i was offered free oil changes for life and $500.00 in gas to buy a 5spd accent gs at about $12500.00 plus destination and fees. still not enough to convince me to buy an accent over a yaris
so what kind of gas mileage are you getting from your accent?
can you elaborate a little please
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0e75b7/7
One thing I will say however, is that the Yaris is harder to maximize power output at first because of the lack of tach. You'll get use to it very quickly though, and once you do, the car gets noticeably quicker too.
As an actual owner of a Yaris, I can tell you I get a combined 38 MPG (44 on my last trip to Vegas hehe).
And don't let the lack of armrest worry you, you can get a factory one off of eBay for $50 or so (you won't even lose the cupholder... if you really plan on using all 7 of them at once haha).
4000 miles and I still love the car. Can't go wrong.
T
do you know if the yaris has a rev limiter for the 5spd?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
at least we conservative gas consumers will still be able to get around w/0 as much pain as the gas guzzling crowd.
the realistic great mpg of a yaris, its my most important reason for wanting to buy one. yes the yaris is cheap in many ways but compared to what? the accent looks nice but not at 27 mpg real world...
does echo have timing chain?
what gas mileage did you get with an echo with air...w/o air?
thanks. and with w/o power steering.
the honda hx manual was rated at 36 mph city 44 mph highway!
can anyone believe this in the real world? it must be w/o air and/or power steering to achieve this. (and i know it has the e-vtec)
My Echo has air, and if you look on the Sedans board in the Echo folder, you will find me hammering away over the course of the last year with my very happy 41 mpg track record. That's in normal suburbn driving - it can easily do 46-50 mpg on the highway, with aircon, provided you keep the speed down to the limit or thereabouts.
The new Yaris is about 200 pounds heavier than my Echo, and has about 5 hp more, so gas mileage may fall slightly from what the Echo could routinely obtain, but I wouldn't think it would fall more than about 5%. They are rated almost identical by the EPA - mine was 34/41, and the current model is 34/40 (both with stick shifts).
I had a friend with the Civic HX, and believe everything you read in that case. He had a long highway commute, about 150 miles round trip each day, half at 70 mph and half in traffic, and he routinely got low 40s for mpg. This was with a '97 - the mileage rating for the '01-'05 was not as high, I don't believe. And he had power steering in that thing, and aircon too, which he used pretty much all the time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)