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2007 Toyota Camry Transmission Gear Snap Ring Issue: TMSUSA Responds
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Comments
I made this assessment at the other forum: Looking at the survey, except for faldoc, all the known mileage on the troubled trannys were indeed ~500-800 miles (say 1-3 weeks of driving). Hopefully, this means Toyota's estimate of ~500 miles is close to the truth.
I am hoping that if your mileage is say >2,000 miles, you are out of the woods. There will always be exceptions, but it is looking like you'll either have the problem within the first couple of weeks of driving, or you are unaffected.
faldoc did say he was gentle with his new car. Perhaps that postponed the tranny problem, and the reason why his problem didn't show up until ~1,900 miles. Also, faldoc did not have VSC. Maybe the VSC can detect instability from the troubled tranny immediately and cause the VSC warning light to come on. Since faldoc didn't have VSC, maybe it wasn't noticeable by a "human" until it has gotten really bad. Just speculations.
Here is the informal data collected so far (the prefixes are names of forumers):
Problems (V6 only):
- Asesantiago: U.S. built XLE V6, ~1 week
- daddyskins: U.S. built XLE V6, ~800 miles
- faldoc: U.S. built March 2006, XLE V6, no VSC, ~1,900 miles
- Corolla_Dude's dealership: U.S. built, LE V6
- Corolla_Dude's dealership: XLE V6
- Corolla_Dude's dealership: V6, model unknown
- angela8: U.S. built XLE V6, ~350 miles (from Edmunds forum)
- okie, U.S. built, LE V6, ~500 miles
- All were built before April, 2006 (presumedly)
- All had under ~2,000 miles
- Toyota issued Press Release identifying problem on April 25, 2006 (no official "recall" yet)
Running Good:
- Max99: Japanese built LE V6, ~700 miles, running good.
- Steve20R: LE V6 ~1,100 miles, runnning good.
- proteus220: U.S. built April, 2006, LE V6, ~210 miles, running good.
- wireless: U.S. built SE V6, ~1,000 miles, running good.
- grumbles: SE V6, ~2,500 miles, running good.
- 07CamryV6LE: Japanese built LE V6, ~400 miles, running good.
- ilovecatbus: U.S. built XLE V6, ~2,400 miles, running good (previous reported problem was unrelated to transmission).
- izulow: U.S. built SE V6, ~1,300 miles, running good.
- so40: Japanese built XLE V6, ~2,500 miles, running good.
- Brutus07: U.S. built, delivery ~March 30, 2006, LE V6, ~2000 miles, running good.
- Amaxophobic: U.S. built, delivery March 30, 2006, XLE V6, ~900 miles, running good.
- jjthenovice: U.S. built, delivery March 31, 2006, XLE V6, ~600 miles, running good.
- 94camryxle: U.S. built, delivery April 27, 2006, SE V6, ~20 miles, running good.
- cameron: U.S. built April, 2006, LE V6, ~10 miles, running good.
- wanman75: Japanese built, XLE V6, ~500 miles, running good.
- chuckotaco: Japanese built, XLE V6, ~1,150 miles, running good.
- Old Racer: U.S. built April 17, 2006, SE V6, ~60 miles, running good.
- yeuemhoai: U.S. built April, 2006, LE V6, ~190 miles, running good.
- wtliao321: Japanese built, XLE V6, ~2,800 miles, running good.
- does your VIN# start with a "J" for Japan built
- what is your production date (see sticker inside driver's door frame)
- what is your approx. mileage so far
(If you're already participated at the ToyotaNation survey under different name, please ignore)
Thanks.
A fastener in the automatic transmission can loosen, and as a result drivers can lose the use of second and sixth gear.
The vehicle still can limp to a dealership, however. The problem applies only to the models with a V-6 and a six-speed transmission.
About 90 owners have reported the problem out of 5,800 vehicles so equipped, says Toyota spokesman Mike Michels.
Toyota is treating the problem with a technical-service bulletin sent to dealers, not a recall. As a result, owners must wait for the transmission to fail before it can be repaired under warranty.
The incorrectly seated fastener, also called a snap ring, may realign itself during normal driving, Michels said.
Toyota has changed the production process to improve seating of the fastener. The same transmission is used in the redesigned Lexus ES 350, but a later production start date meant the problem was caught before production began.
The article is here:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060502/FREE/60501008/1024/L- ATESTNEWS
For some inexplicable reason, a shortage of the new 6-sp automatic transaxles to the production lines has developed...
That's OK; after-all, this is the internet and it’s an open space for all opinions. But tmsusa's main concern is that the poster was saying things about the actual repair procedure that just weren't true. The car does not need to be disassembled and rebuilt. A good tech likely can pull out the tranny in an hour and install the new one just as fast--and the Camry would be no different than had it just come off the assembly line, except of course it has the quality 6-spd automatic transmission it was meant to have in the first place.
BTW, our Customer Experience Center has trained representatives and case managers interacting with our affected customers and others who want more information. While they are not there 24/7, we have information similar to what tmsusa has posted on this forum recorded. Anyone can call 800-331-4331 and get our update, even in the middle of the night. Many have done that and are evidently satisfied with what we have to say, as they elect to not speak to our representatives.
I've just listened to it myself, and here is the text of our current update-->
Toyota has determined that some early-build 2007 Camry V6 transmissions have the potential for loss of second and sixth gear operation. Less than 0.5 percent of early total Camry production is expected to be affected. If the problem occurs the vehicle will still operate safely, using the remaining gears. Owners who have experienced this condition should bring their vehicles into an authorized Toyota dealership.
A fastener within the automatic transmission clutch pack may become loose, depending on the fastener seating condition. The condition has generally occurred within the first 500 miles. Toyota has changed the process for current production to improve seating of the fastener.
Toyota will work with customers, case-by-case, to assure their total satisfaction and confidence in their new Camry. Customers who have questions about this condition or any aspect of their vehicle they may call their local Toyota dealer or call the Toyota Customer Experience Center at 800-331-4331.
To repeat this message, press 9.
If you would like to speak to a representative press 2.
Hope this additional source of information is a help.
Thanks for your response, even though I was asking the question of our HOST about the complete posting from jp10. Apparently you have been privy to the entire post, and excised from it jp10's sentence that you started your post #165 with.
Your answer begs my question. If the rest of us can't see what else jp10 may have been saying about the transmission issue, it's really impossible to evaluate your response.
Perhaps our HOST could restore the portion of jp10s post that is on-subject and leave out anything off-subject. Or maybe our HOST has already determined that the one sentence you excised out was the only part that was on-subject. That would answer my inquiry.
At this point, though, you have the advantage of us here --you've made a response to something we're not sure we've seen in its completeness and original context,which apparently you have. It seems only fair to jp10 for us to know what actually has been removed.
I'll add my thanks to you for your efforts to keep us former Camry owners, present owners, and potential buyers informed on this important topic.
I just wanted to note that calling this number and talking to the representative or calling the dealer has not given me any more information than what is the press release statements. In fact, I have had to tell them what is in the press release since what they have told me conflicts witht the press release. I am sorry to report that but I am hoping it helps with your service approach.
My impression is that this 800 number is setup for someone who has no knowledge of this problem or the press release...or has had a failure and doesn't know what to do.
When I was living overseas, teams of Toyota engineers from Japan would sometimes come to dealerships to talk with customers about problems and explain any issues in detail. This would be advertised in the paper with the list of the specialists and their qualifications. No lip service, patronizing or runaround. Just highly trained specialsts very familiar with the cars, interested in helping customers and explaining issues and problems. Why don't have something like this in the states?
Max99
~alpha
I think it is obvious that Toyota is not going to give any more information than they have already posted and they are not going to tear down and inspect all of the units that could "possibly" be affected. I can live with that and I will just have to wait and see how things go.
I "DO" think that Toyota should cover all the transmissions that were in this "early made" group for 7 years or 100,000 miles. That would make me feel a lot better.
Mike
No austinman7, tmsusa enjoys no special privileges on this forum just because we've decided to be upfront and open about a product issue we sure wish had not happened. Anyone who happened to be perusing the thread late last night as I was would have read jp10’s post, too and I suspect they would confirm as the host has that the writer quickly strayed off into subject matter not at all specific to the issue at hand.
I hope that provides more reassurance to you that you did not miss anything relevant to our Camry transmission topic.
Also, someone wondered about our utilization of Toyota Japanese engineers in the U.S. to help us diagnose technical issues, interact with dealers and talk to customers, suggesting that is done in other overseas markets, but not in America. Not true. In fact, we have product engineers from Japan stationed here doing that day in and day out. Along with our American technical engineers, they also have the capability of interacting with our dealership techs, regional field engineers and other experts based at our manufacturing facilities and in Japan via our own dedicated electronic technical support systems.
Thank you for your comments austinman7.
So far, it is already 1.55%, and this number can only increase as customers with an affected tranny put on more mileage over time. Is this a fair assessment?
Source
As we became aware of the issue, the early production units were held for inspection/countermeasure implementation prior to release to dealers. But the very first units off the line were expedited to dealers as is normal for our most popular vehicle, and it is some of those that could potentially exhibit the problem.
We also know that that the malfunction, if it is going to occur, will generally happen at very low mileage--around that 500 mile mark. So we anticipate that these potential problem vehicles will surface rapidly, and that's exactly what has happened.
There is no safety issue involved, but a significant dose of embarrassment to us and certainly concern/inconvenience/extreme disappointment to our customers who have had to deal with something so unexpected. That's why we have been doing everything possible to reach out to them, in particular, and take whatever action is necessary to turn a decidedly negative customer experience into something more consistent with the Toyota brand and the ownership experience Americans have come to expect from us.
~alpha
So this .5% may be for 160 cars out of 32,000 V6s and V4s that had been produced when the annoucement was made. This is one possible explanation....just speculation on my part.
BTW, That 90 number is good news to me. It means they are quickly finding the problem cars and that there are only 70 left on the road if the 160 number is accurate. This gives me an idea of the failure distribution and matches your survey along with what Toyota says about the 500 miles. Perhaps some of the 70 will not fail at all if the ring reseats as Toyota stated earlier.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051227/BUSINESS/5122- - - - - - - - 70306/1003
I agree and appreciate the actions Toyota (USA) has taken. The news media should not only cover the tranny problems, but also recognize Toyota for being up-front and "honourable" in this matter.
I have been following 4 affected customers/forumers, and all have been VERY satisfied with the way Toyota handled this situation. Toyota has truely tried to make good on an unfortunate situation, and for that, I am very thankful! I hope Toyota CANADA will have a similar policy should the issue arise north of the border.
I am noticing customers are begining to receive V6s with a build date of 04/06. The original press release was made on April 25, 2006. My only question is what date in April did Toyota correct this problem? Thanks again!
And third question: Why not a recall of all affected v6 AT camrys? You're gonna have several thousand very nervous owners out there otherwise.
Do you think the dealer should do the warranty job if you find the problem, which is showing on your car, on the TSB and dealer acknowledge it. It is the wind noise problem on my 05 HL LTD. Of course, it has not been fixed yet because my Toyota dealer refuse to work on any no-profit warranty works at all. :lemon:
Vehicle production dates are not necessarily what we're using to track the affected vehicles. We've worked hand-in-hand with our supplier in Japan and are using the build date and identification of the transmission to more accurately pinpoint and estimate the impacted vehicles.
Finally, if a voluntary service campaign would ultimately result in a higher level of customer satisfaction to our owners, we would not hesitate to put that in place. We've done that many times. But given the small number of vehicles involved, the proactive outreach to affected customers, our ability to know which vehicles are prone to the issue and when and the widespread needless concern and inconvenience that would be brought upon such a large number of our customers--well, we think this is a much more satisfactory approach.
"We've worked hand-in-hand with our supplier in Japan and are using the build date and identification of the transmission to more accurately pinpoint and estimate the impacted vehicles."
Once this process is complete, why not issue a recall of these impacted vehicles, which at this point, it seems number about 160? Replace their transmissions, end of story, the rest of the owners have the peace of mind knowing they're alright.
That hardly seems like enough folks to qualify as widespread, or enough to invoke needless concern and inconvenience.
I respect what Toyota feels to be the 'much more satisfactory approach'. But is that approach the much more satisfactory method in the consumer's shoes? At this point, I wonder.
Its clear Toyota is taking strong measures toward customer satisfaction for those who ALREADY HAVE BEEN AFFECTED by the tranny issue.
My thinking is just that it might be much better from a PR standpoint, if the number is really as small as 160, to pinpoint the affected vehicles, contact the owners, replace the transmissions, end the dang issue, and have Toyota escape this lapse in quality assurance potentially unscathed (except for the costs associated with the replacement of transmissions... which would be a drop in the bucket for this, the most profitable of all auto companies).
~alpha
"and the widespread needless concern and inconvenience that would be brought upon such a large number of our customers--well,"
I guess it depends on how you define needless. It certainly is not needless to the owners of the "earlier" cars you keep talking about. Mine was made in January of 06, that is pretty darn early.
Mike
Your point however, is still very valid. I gathered from the media there were ~5,800 US built V6 before the problem was discovered (sometime in April, 2006 - exact date unknown to the public).
Of those, only a small percentage is affected (~90, 160, half-percent, 1.55%, 2.76%, whatever, depending on who you listen to and how you do the math).
The concern may be "needless", but I think it is also very real.
I originally wondered that "IF" all the transmissions were made in Japan and the problem is "Internal" with a snap ring, HOW could where it was mounted to the rest of the engine assembly make a difference. I don't know. As I have stated several times, my car is doing fine and I love it. It is the "not knowing" that is the problem.
I admire what Toyota has done so far, however... if it is that small of a number and they have a "decent idea" of who got those cars, they should notify them and at the very least offer an extended warranty on those cars. I do not want anyone to touch mine "UNLESS" it does develop a problem. Again, all of this is based on the statement that only "160 or so" vehicles were affected.
Mike
I do not work in the technical services area of our company and so could not offer a technically intelligent response to your very logical “thinking.” Plus, it really would not be appropriate here to delve into that.
I can tell you that the "costs" incurred to us for making a wrong situation right for our customers are not even part of the decision making process for this. And good PR is important to us, but secondary to doing what is right.
The #1 motivation for handling our Camry transmission problem the way we have is that it was the best course of action for our affected customers and enabled us to respond to them the fastest. The "non-affected" customers--those that will not have this problem but worry they will--are equally important to us, and I understand why there may be underlying trepidation.
But it is our hope that this level of open and honest communication direct from us to them--coupled with our reputation for standing behind the reliability of our products—will provide the kind of peace of mind Toyota customers have come to expect from their brand.
Thanks for keeping me updated as promised, TMS.
From TMS I understand that the transmission might be at my dealer by the end of this week, (no guarantees), so I might have my car a day or 2 after that, perhaps early next week. I am sure my dealer will want to get my car to me and their loaner back... I am putting 600 miles a week on the loaner...
TMS re-iterated the Toyota 7 yr/100000 mile $0 deductible Platinum warantee and 1st car payment incentives. All in all if the car is back to tiptop shape I think it will be a satisfactory solution to the issue.
More updates as I get them.
I am one of the affected customers and initially I was very happy with the way Toyota was handling my case. Unfortunately, when I contacted Fabiola (your customer service rep)and inquired about what Toyota was doing to prevent any more of these units from being sold from dealer inventory, I was told the following:
"Is there some problem, we did offered to buy your car back."
My only point in making that call was to get some reassurance that no one else would be affected in the same manner that I was. I did so much research before taking the big plunge...I bought my dream car, I was so excited. I drove it so proudly with confidence for a whole 3 days and then suddenly at 351 miles the transmission started shifting erractly. I was told it would ready in 2 weeks only to find out that it would be a minimum of 4 weeks before it would be repaired.
The thought of a buy back and repurchase of another 2007 Camry XLE has crossed mind because of the substancial wait period of repair. Unfortunatly I have no confidence that the next one I get will be another one of the known problem units.
Rita aka Disappointed Camry owner in Texas
Also, tmsusa is hopeful that we can earn back your confidence and loyalty. Based on the news I relayed in an earlier post, let's hope that a replacement transmission is in route now to your dealership. We'll make an effort to verify that in the morning with our Parts Distribution Team and Expeditors. Your disappointment is certainly understandable.
It seems that the root cause of the residual concern from folks, is the uncertainty as to whether the car they have purchased (or about to purchase)......is one of the cars that may have the defective transmission or not. You reference reaching out folks with communications, but you have not described how you are doing that.
If you could confirm exactly which VIN numbers:
a.) "may" have the defective transmissions, then owners that have that car today would be on the lookout for the symptoms of a failure. If I was the owner of one of these VIN numbers, then I would want a letter informing me of the potential problem.....so If possible I don't put myself or loved ones in situations which would magnify the impact if the problem surfaced (long out of state trip, quick passing situations, etc).
b.) "definitely do not", then those owners can stop worrying about their car, and others can buy in confidence.
Can you confirm that Toyota KNOWS the VIN numbers that might be impacted, or please confirm that TOYOTA DOESN'T exactly KNOW the VIN numbers. Desperately looking for a way to definitively INCLUDE or EXCLUDE specific cars.
If the transmission shifts to 1st gear while travelling at high speed (as someone described), or even if it is just shifts erratically on the highway, I think we can all agree that is a safety issue, especially if the roads are wet, snowy or slippery, and you have your family in the car.
I don't think we need to wait for the car to exhibits symptoms to have it recalled. For example, when recalls are issued for seat belts, or air bags, we don't wait for the seat belt to snap, or the airbag to deploy, to fix it.
This begs the question: Can Toyota positively identify the 160 or so cars affected?
Regardless, it seems that anyone with a Camry build date of this month has nothing to worry about, so going forward, this issue will not actually BE an issue.
~alpha
I am one of the affected customers and I KNOW that if I had been in a different traffic situation it could have been a serious safety issue. My car accelerated slowly with rapid RPMs and remained somewhat stagnant and jurked like crazy, shifting up and down.
My prior message to TMSUSA was not answered in regards to needing some reassurance on prevention of this situation occuring with pending sales from dealer stock as well as notification of current owners that haven't reached that pivital mileage marker.
TMSUSA did say that the replacement transmissions were being expedited, which was good news. Again I must stay that with the exception of one conversation with my Toyota customer service rep regarding this issue, I have been treated well by Star Toyota as well as Toyota.
Now, let's assume for a minute that Toyota positively identified his car was one of 160 cars affected, do you still think he will refuse repair, symptoms or not?
However, my sense is that Toyota can NOT positively identify the affected cars, and that is why it is difficult to issue a recall.
P.S. I agree issuing a recall on all 5,800 cars just to weed out 160 does not make business sense, and would be a logistic nightmare, if not an impossibility. That is why I am hoping Toyota can identify the 160 or so cars affected, today or at some future time.
I liken this to a family genetic disorder. If I find my parents have a serious genetic disease, I'm going to want to know whether I also have that particular gene defect passed to me, even though it may be dormant and never surface. If we check the genes and I don't have the defective gene, great. If I do, I know to be on the lookout for the symptoms that may or may not ultimately surface.
So Toyota let's open the books a little. Please let us know via VIN or mfg date (or some other method which owners/buyers can verify).....exactly which cars were built after the problem was identified, and are therefore EXCLUDED from having this problem.
So that leaves a subset of cars that MAY or MAYNOT have the problem. It's not clear to me that when you reference 160 vehicles that have this problem, whether the subset of cars that MAY have the problem is actually 500, of which you believe only 160 will have snapring not seat correctly over time.....or whether the subset in total (the total number of cars that could have this problem) is 160.
In my reading in this forum, I gather
1. The remedy to those already affected is to replace the transmission
2. ‘Vehicle production dates are not necessarily what we're using to track the affected vehicles’ (quote from tmsusa), and this will lead me to number 3
3. (This one someone has to correct me if I am wrong) the problem is not in the assembly line (whether it be in the US or Japan) but the manufacturing of the transmission itself (which is in Japan). It might just be luck that all of those we have seen in the forums are all assembled US
I just want to know if Toyota has identified and rectified the problem today (or a certain date). While I cannot expect a total reassurance of any product to be defective free, at least the potential of having this problem is much less when I buy a Camry whose 6 speed transmission is assembled today.
The SE V6 I liked will be arriving in my dealership in 1-2 weeks time and I have to make a decision whether to buy it now or wait for another six months to sort out the transmission problem. If the tranny issue did not come up, I was willing to make a deposit to be sure I get the unit.
I have said several times that if the 160 number is anywhere near correct, they need to notify those owners. Now, if mine is identified as one of the possible "bad" transmissions then I have to decide to let them replace it now or wait and see what happens. You can believe that if mine was to be replaced I would want to be there when it was done. I do not want some guy with a air gun just jerking things off and then using the air wrench (no torque wrench etc.) and just guessing where this bolt was etc. Would I want a "New" car instead of the replacement? Well I don't know for sure, that would be a tough decision.
I don't think Toyota is going to say much more than what they have already said about this. They may know exactly how many are bad and they may not. I do think it could be more of a safety problem than they seem to think it is. I am glad they have addressed the problem and are taking care of the owners that "actually" have the trouble.
If I had known about this problem back at the end of March when my wife took a 900 mile trip by "herself", I would not have let her go in this car. Luckily everything went fine and the car is still having no problems with a little over 2,500 miles on it. It is just the "not knowing" that bugs me.
I would like to see Toyota offer all of the "possibly affected" 160 owners a free extended warranty, unless they just decide to replace all of those transmissions. However, I don't think that (replacing all) is going to happen.
Mike
Or MAYBE, there is more than one transmission plant in Japan, or more than one production "line", and the US destined ones (transmissions) are built on a different line than the Japanese destined ones.... The production "error" being limited to one of these production lines....perhaps the ones destined for US built cars?????
I also mentioned several days ago that we had instituted a countermeasure, so vehicles being sold today are not impacted--We definitely have not issued a stop sale. As for vehicles in stock at our dealerships? We wish there were more, but at the end of April our dealers had less than a 10-day supply of the top-selling vehicle in the United States. We continue to build them here and there as fast as we can--and problem-free.
If there is an existing V6/Auto car on a dealer lot today which is for sale, and the car VIN number and/or manufacturing date is 'prior' to the date you realized a problem.....is that car still for sale to some unsuspecting shopper? Or have the dealers been told to pull the inventory, and do something like make demos/loaners out of them?
Rita--I was able to relay your concerns to the right folks and have just learned that the replacement parts for your vehicle have been status upgraded to get them to the dealership pronto. You've been very patient; tmsusa thanks you and appreciates your candid feedback to us.
‘I also mentioned several days ago that we had instituted a countermeasure, so vehicles being sold today are not impacted--We definitely have not issued a stop sale’ tmsusa
Rest be assured tmsusa that I understand the measures cannot be 100% foolproof. It just gives me comfort that at least Toyota instituted measures to avoid the tranny issue on the car I might be buying next week or earlier when it is available.
This is exactly what I was looking for – and increased my wanting to buy the car when available instead of waiting few more months because of the issues I read. Scale is now 75% buying when available vs 5% before I read your post.
You have tried your best to answer the questions – and you are doing an excellent job considering the constraints of what you can and cannot say. Best regards,
FiloD
First from the Service Mgr @ Star Toyota, then from your customer center and lastly from the Customer Relations Rep with Star Toyota. All to called to tell me that my transmission will be at the dealership no later than next Tuesday (5.9.06) and I should be able to drive it out by Thursday. I am looking forward to driving my new again!
I am so glad to see that my 4-6 weeks wait has now been backed down to 2 1/2 weeks. It's good to know that Toyota cares for it's owners and is so responsive.
I don't want close this on a negative but I still don't understand what Toyota is doing to prevent dealer stock with transmission issues from being sold and creating hardship and disappointment for another anxious buyer.
Is it Toyota's position that all of the cars with issues have already been sold?