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Honda Fit Hybrid

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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, he also didn't mention a few other significant bits of news like the upcoming next-gen Accord, due in a year or so. Maybe the release was focused on all-new stuff, like the new plant, new diesels, new hybrid model. They have to save some news for other months. :)
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I don't think the world need Mr Fukui to tell us there will be another Accord. :D

    Seriously, he was focused on new innovations over the next few years. It wasn't a talk about existing product lines. The way the whole thing is put together gives me a double-grande dose of doubt regarding a Fit hybrid.

    Originally, when the rumors first appeared, Fukui all but denied them. Those rumors were based on leaks suggesting a low(er) cost hybrid which was smaller than the Civic. Given Honda's strategy for using existing models to build their hybrids, the Fit was a logical assumption. And, if this dedicated hybrid uses the Fit chassis, it makes the assumption all the more acceptable.

    What Fukui just announced explains how the rumors may have formed as well as why Fukui denied them.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    "Honda's IMA system, IMHO, is just not the best arrangement. "

    I am so glad to hear that coming from a previous Insight owner. When I hinted that the physics of the IMA were not sound - any gains may have been due purely to the smaller engines that Honda fitted to that particular Civic and the Insight - over on the HCH board I am sure some members there wanted to skin me alive !
    I think I wrote, half seriously, that the IMA is what you get when a group of mechanical engineers try their hand at electrical engineering.

    In reality, and I speak from personal experience, it is very hard to break a corporate culture heavily based on successes had with another discipline, in this case internal combustion engine design. Successful hybrids are going to need an engine with a significantly different profile.
    If the Insight had been a series hybrid using an induction motor pinioned 10:1 to the differential as per EV1 I am sure that there would have been an entirely different outcome. Without the EV1's 840lbs of battery the Insight would have had no problem with those 8 second to 60mph speed ramps.

    But I digress, I also suspect that Honda made the common mistake of resting its future on just the one design team.

    Someone pointed out that if you drive at 60 for more than 45 minutes then reclamation of energy when braking to a standstill is negated by the losses incurred by hauling the 100lb HV battery around in th first place ! (the penalty estimated in the increase in rolling resistance comes out as 200 watts @ 60mph).
    There is only one justification for regeneration through the recapture of potential and kinetic energy and that is for a pure battery electric vehicle where you are having to lug a gradually depleting battery around with you 24/7 anyway. Then the recapture makes perfect sense to use this already existing structure to absorb that energy. BUT to deliberately install, pay for and accomodate a battery just for this one task is totally ludicrous. I am waiting for the penny to drop on this one for Honda. To be fair the Toyota Prius is also suspect on this count now I think about it.

    I am interested in the Fit because my Echo's lease is due to expire soon and that's why I follow this board, not to discuss hybrid theory. The Advanced Hybrid Eng is where I normally hang out.
    T2
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ...any gains may have been due purely to the smaller engines that Honda fitted to that particular Civic and the Insight...

    I don't know why members of the HCH board would want to skin you alive for saying that. I thought that was pretty common knowledge. Isn't the primary reason for the electric motor (and battery) to provide a boost to the small gas engine for acceleration, and secondarily to allow the gas engine to shut off at stops, and (for HSD) to allow the car to run at low speeds for short distances on electric power alone? I would think in urban stop-n-go driving there would be some gas savings from the autostop and electric-only driving, since regenerative braking would happen more frequently in that scenario.
  • marcbmarcb Member Posts: 152
    Last sentence says:

    "The report also says that Honda executives have denied that the subcompact Fit will be available as a hybrid".

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/060519-6.htm

    No problem with me, as long as Honda fits the Fit with a small super efficient turbo diesel that gets 65+mpg. Yes honda, after almost 5 years in this thread I am still waiting for the Fit that fits my efficiency preference. Hey, I'll take a 3+3 FRV diesel too - if it gets 40+mpg.

    marcb
    - ex Prius Owner.
    - getting 45mpg mixed driving on a 12 year old Jetta diesel.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Thanks for the link.

    I think you're going to be waiting a very long time for that Fit Diesel, though. HCCI engines could be available by then.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Honda's IMA system, IMHO, is just notthe best arrangement. In the Insight, I found that the motor just didn't assist as much as I'd like. Give it double the torque output, and it would have been very nice."

    The newest IMA do have double the output, by coincidence. However, I don't know if it is used anywhere except the 2006 HCH.

    The IMA advantage is that Honda could place it in any vehicle at a moment's notice, unlike the HSD, which requires more engineering. The only thing Honda has to do is find a place for the batteries and reprogram the ECU. The drive train is plug and play with the standard Honda transmission components. It is not as efficient a hybrid, but is easier to implement.

    The second advantage it has over HSD is that the IMA will run without a traction battery; the HSD cannot.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Member Posts: 678
    I am totally with you on the idea of a Fit diesel. Maybe Honda could replace the smaller L12A with a 1.4L version of the current diesel used in the Accord, FR-V, CR-V, and Civic for the next generation Jazz in Europe.

    Then they could ship a few to North America? ;)
    60+ mpg on the highway would not be out of the question.

    By the way, the FR-V diesel consumes 5.3L/100km in extra urban (highway) driving so that will fit your requirement of 40+mpg. Actually, combined fuel consumption is 6.3L/100km (~37 mpg), which is quite good for a 1600kg MPV!
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Can't. The 2.2L won't squeeze between the suspension parts in the Fit platform.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Member Posts: 678
    Maybe that's why I said they should use a smaller version of the current engine.

    Re-read my original post if you have any questions.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    My bad, you're right. Of course, there are no plans for such an engine.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Member Posts: 678
    They haven't announced anything yet, but I would be very surprised if they didn't have a smaller diesel engine undergoing R&D or testing. Just speculation though...

    Sales of the Jazz in Europe are OK (and they are rising every year), but still nothing spectacular. All (or at least almost all) of the competition offers a diesel option, and Honda will need to do the same to raise the bar with the next generation Jazz.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Well, I agree that a small diesel would be a good move for Honda in the european markets. That's not in doubt. I just don't see it happening any time soon. They just announced a series of up-coming engine projects and a small diesel wasn't on the list.

    A larger V6 diesel was.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that Honda buys a small diesel from some one else for the Civic EU version. They may want the V6 diesel for their minivans and SUVs sold in the USA. That will be a giant market for the first ones online.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    They used to have an Isuzu-built sub 2 liter engine in the Euro Civic. With the new Civic, they have the 2.2L Honda diesel from the Accord, CR-V, and FR-V.

    The V6 diesel is most certainly going into the Ridgeline here. However, it may also be used in the Legend and MDX overseas.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That should be one fast little Civic with the 2.2 diesel. I hope you are wrong about the diesel in just the Ridgeline. That is one ugly truck. I would buy a diesel Pilot or MDX.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Member Posts: 678
    The Civic 2.2 CTDi has a 0-100 km/h (0-62 mph) of 8.6 seconds :D
    ...not to mention combined fuel consumption of 5.3L/100km (44 mpg)!

    I would take a diesel over a hybrid of any Honda model. Diesel engines inherently have lower CO2 emissions than gasoline engines, and smoke/particles is no longer an issue on filter-equipped cars with low-sulphur fuel. Add in higher fuel economy, a significant increase in torque, and Honda's recent news that they will have decreased NOx levels to that of gasoline...sounds like Honda has a winner.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    A combined 44 MPG is great. I would imagine you can get well over 50 MPG cruising at 75 MPH. If the Honda diesel is similar in torque to my Passat diesel, it really shines on long hills. Rarely needing to downshift with good torque under 2000 RPMs.
  • hungarian83hungarian83 Member Posts: 678
    It is rated (by European standards) as approximately 35 city and 52 highway. The fact it gets a 6 speed MT helps in keeping the rpms down at higher speeds...something the Fit could use. ;)

    The horsepower on the Civic diesel is 140@4000 while it has about 250 lb-ft of torque at 2000 rpm.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If they offer that Civic in the US I would put aside my negative Honda thoughts and buy one. That is more powerful than my heavier Passat was. Plus better mileage.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "I hope you are wrong about the diesel in just the Ridgeline."

    I may be.

    This strategy makes no sense to me, but I just found this link today.

    Could be a misquote, or it could be that Fukui said something in his homeland, which he didn't say to the US press.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Het frayadjacent:

    How long did you have your Insight? Was it a 5-speed? Did you like it? Why did you get rid of it?

    Thanks,

    MidCow

    P.S.- Very, very seriously considered ordering an Insight, but my wife said it wouldn't have enough power for me so we got an S2000 instead LOL, go figure!
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    March:

    You said "ex Prius owner"

    Why did you get rid of it? How did you like it? Any problems?

    Any VW relaiblity issues? I liked their TDI, just not sure bout relaiblity after my Audi reliability experience.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    one other advantage, the IMA lends itself to better highway milage because when not needed, the IMA doesn't run, unlike the MGs of the Toyota HSD system which run all the time even with a fully charged traction battery.

    Also HSD can only go in reverse in full-electric LOL.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • agalasagalas Member Posts: 38
    In latest issue, or perhaps that was Automobile Magazine and their "2008 preview".

    Anyway, Fit Hybrid supposidly in 08.
  • doctyphoondoctyphoon Member Posts: 25
    I have had my eye on the Fit for months, I have been waiting for the dust and prices to settle. If a hybrid version were offered for under 20K that achieved 50+mpg in a AT or CVT version I would definitely be interested. My wife just bought a Camry Hybrid and loves it!
  • pfinepfine Member Posts: 15
    I dunno how they will be able to do this -- the Insight is/was an amazing vehicle because its body was almost 100% aluminum and lightweight plastic composites. It was like the Apollo mission of cars for all of its weight-cutting measures. The Insight was so demure that its total payload capacity is only about 450 lbs, and that is including people. I test drove one and the 3-cyl powerplant was adequate. I just don't know how that could translate into a viable powertrain for the steel-bodied, 4-door, 5-passenger Fit. Is it going to be fit enough to haul the Fit up a hill? Maybe if Honda improves the hybrid assist system, which I'm sure would occur after all these years of development.
  • doctyphoondoctyphoon Member Posts: 25
    It seems doable to me, the biggest obstacle being the placement of the batteries. The Fit weighs in at approximately 2500lbs., the Civic Hybrid (50mpg capable)at about 2800lbs, so that the physics seems to indicate that the goal is within reach. The bigger question might be will some of the Fit's extraordinary space versatility have to be compromised?
  • crimsonacrimsona Member Posts: 153
    Not sure why people are expecting a Fit Hybrid. Since the initial reports, Honda has already come out and said that there will be a *dedicated* hybrid vehicle coming out - to me, this means it will NOT be based on a Fit.

    http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=2006051735893

    Straight from the CEO, over 2 months ago - scroll down to product strategy
  • dewaltdakotadewaltdakota Member Posts: 364
    It's pretty much a given that a hybrid Fit would lose the "magic seat" capability. The Civic hybrid doesn't even give you the ability to drop the seat down, so the even more limited trunk space is restricted to the rear seats, and cannot be expanded, forward.

    The last I had heard though, it appeared that Honda Corporate was going with a separate vehicle entirely for the next hybrid platform. So, the whole concept of a Fit hybrid may be moot.
  • doctyphoondoctyphoon Member Posts: 25
    A dedicated hybrid would be fine, lets just hope they incorporate some of the lessons learned from the Fit, ie.creative space utilization.
  • fitrnfitrn Member Posts: 47
    Is there any news on the Hybird Fit??? My research is bringing me to dead ends.. :confuse:
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    When they announced that the Insight was going to be discontinued, I saw that they plan to introduce a new hybrid-specific car in 2009. Whether that turns out to be a hybrid Fit or not, I suppose we'll find out more sometime this year
  • homespunhomespun Member Posts: 2
    Does anyone know whether Honda is going to make a Fit hybrid? Or is that now just an old story?

    At this point, Fit looks like the right Fit for me even if it is just old fashioned technology.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As pf_flyer noted, Honda has announced a new hybrid for 2009 that they said will be smaller than the Civic Hybrid. But they haven't said yet whether it will be the Fit or a new model.
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    Actually it's a CR-X successor. The CR-Z should give it the excitement of the 88-91 CRX but will have a hybrid powerplant.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Does that mean a two-seater? If so... :(
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    Well they said it would be as fun to drive as the 88-91 CR-X.
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    This new hybrid is said to be fun to drive like the CR-X. This new hybrid is said to be built in Indiana. Maybe I could be misinterpreting but hey the so called fit hybrid is actually the new Small family hybrid. CR-Z is coming out but not before MY10.

    Also honda has trademarked the name Latitiude. Latitude is the name of a new Accord based crossover. Some say it's the stream. I think it's the JDM Odyssey that might come here. That would make for an interesting crossover. Could have the 190 HP K24 and a 268 HP J35. Might compete with the ody but should give the Ford flex a run for it's money.
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    Rumor has it that a Fit hybrid might come out. It might not be for our market though. Possibly in this generation. The global hybrid is the Honda Prius fighter. The global hybrid will have FCX Clarity styling cues. Could look very similar to the FCX clarity. Also Honda is working on the CR-Z that will likely be the sporty Hybrid. The CR-Z will be a fun to drive, fuel efficient, sporty hybrid.

    Some more information on Honda's new hybrid plans.
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    This new global small hybrid and the CR-Z are coming out sometime next year.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I wonder what sort of MPG a Fit Hybrid would get? I average in the mid 30s with my Sport Auto and had 40.2mpg on my last highway trip. Unless a Fit Hybrid will get in the mid 40s average and 50+mpg real-world on the highway, it would be worth it to me.
  • underdog4underdog4 Member Posts: 3
    I think that the fit Hybrid is about 4 yrs. off. Wayne
  • bgrangebgrange Member Posts: 1
    I am very sad to hear Honda is not currently thinking of sending the Honda Fit Hybrid to the US. I recently drove both the Insight and the Fit. Had the Fit come in Hybrid form I would have bought immediately. I favor the visibility and handling of the Fit a bit over that of the Insight.

    "We can confirm that the CR-Z will go on sale in the U.S. in 2010," but added, "We are not ready to announce any plans for the sale of the Fit Hybrid in regions outside of Japan."
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