Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Most popular vehicles
Popular New Cars
- New Acura MDX
- New Acura RDX
- New Audi Q5
- New BMW 3 Series
- New BMW X3
- New Buick Enclave
- New Cadillac Escalade
- New Chevrolet Equinox
- New Chrysler 300
- New Dodge Challenger
- New Ford Edge
- New Ford Escape
- New Ford Expedition
- New Ford Explorer
- New Ford F-150
- New Ford Focus
- New Ford Mustang
- New Honda Accord
- New Honda Civic
- New Honda CR-V
- New Honda Fit
- New Honda Odyssey
- New Honda Pilot
- New Hyundai Elantra
- New Hyundai Santa Fe
- New Hyundai Sonata
- New Hyundai Tucson
- New Jeep Compass
- New Jeep Grand Cherokee
- New Jeep Wrangler
- New Mazda 3
- New Mazda 6
- New Mazda CX-5
- New Nissan Altima
- New Nissan Maxima
- New Nissan Rogue
- New Porsche Cayenne
- New Ram 1500
- New Subaru Crosstrek
- New Subaru Forester
- New Subaru Impreza
- New Subaru Outback
- New Tesla Model S
- New Tesla Model X
- New Toyota 4Runner
- New Toyota Camry
- New Toyota Corolla
- New Toyota Highlander
- New Toyota Prius
- New Toyota RAV4
- New Toyota Sienna
- New Toyota Tacoma
- New Volkswagen Jetta
- New Volvo XC60
- New Volvo XC90
Popular Used Sedans
- Used BMW 5 Series
- Used Chevrolet Impala
- Used Chevrolet Malibu
- Used Chrysler 200
- Used Dodge Charger
- Used Ford Fusion
- Used Ford Taurus
- Used Honda Accord
- Used Honda Civic
- Used Hyundai Elantra
- Used Hyundai Sonata
- Used Tesla Model S
- Used Toyota Camry
- Used Toyota Corolla
- Used Volkswagen Jetta
Popular Used SUVs
- Used Acura MDX
- Used Acura RDX
- Used Ford Edge
- Used Ford Explorer
- Used Honda CR-V
- Used Honda Pilot
- Used Hyundai Santa Fe
- Used Jeep Compass
- Used Lincoln Navigator
- Used Mazda CX-5
- Used Nissan Rogue
- Used Subaru Crosstrek
- Used Subaru Forester
- Used Tesla Model X
- Used Volvo XC90
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
I am driving short distances most of the time. I rarely have been on a turnpike. That is probably most of the problem. My work is about 5 minutes from my house. Also, it has been in the 90's and humid.
Here's my recommendation:
Time your 5 min drive and stop the car after ~1.5 min driving and put the car in "P". You should see the analog mpg drop to E almost immediately. If not, wait a few sec. All this of course depends on how cold the temperature is outside and how fast heat can be distributed across the system. Once its on E mode, start your trip again and accelerate as you usually do to 40-42 mph, then p&g it. Try to stay as long on this speed as possible. If traffic catches up, ramp it up to whatever speed you normally do (2mph higher) and then p&g. If the analog mpg drop to 60, that means motor is assisting the engine and that's good! Circumstances may not allow you to do this everyday, but I recommend trying it a few times to see if your Eco Drive Level improves. I would be surprised if you can't get an "excellent" rating.
Fyi. I once got 50+ mpg on a 6 mile suburban stretch at speed up to 45 mph and that's from a cold start. So its not impossible. The only thing killing your mpg is your TCH's brain. You just need to trick it.
Hope that helps.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/articles/t-beating-the-epa-the-whys-and-how-to-hy- - permile-1510.html
Is it the oil? Did resetting the inteval reminder do something to the computer?
We drive VERY short trips with the car. But the ocassional hwy, still is below "normal". I've noticed a similiar thread last year in http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/showthread.php?t=10757. They blamed the 5w30.
Al
Other than that, I just had my 30,000 service and I have had nothing other than the seasonal and weather related issues with FE (I use regular oil)
Al.
Prius one felt like a small car and delivered disappointed mileage. Prius twomore stable with better mileage. Camry is best of all worlds..great sedan and great mileage. I never did anything more than chnage the oil and rotate the tires on any of the hybrids.
Les
John O'Dell is definietly interested in hearing from folks whose hybrids are starting to get some miles on them, so drop him an email (shown a few posts ago) and let him know about your experiences.
One odd note about my vehicle and I'm not sure if it pertains to everyone elses as well. My needle drops to empty when I have 3 gallons left in the tank. I'm a Republican and my car is more conservative than I am!
Even at that, no single mileage number could accurately reflect the wide differences in diving styles and circumstances. No way.
I'd agree that the range estimates ought to be displayed in print equal in size to the actual EPA numbers. For the TCH they are 32-44 mpg, which I suspect covers most driving experiences.
What I had on the other side of the mountains was a reading of 30.2 mpg. Much less than my 38.2 overall lifetime FE.
I guess what I'm having is a hard time understanding how anyone can average less than 30mpg. That was an extreem trip with a lot of passing and steep uphills and without any concern for FE I still maintained 30+.
Early in ownership my son took the TCH to Charleston on business and "proudly" displayed that he had gotten 32mpg. I about choked and told him that I average 38 to 41 on that same trip.
I'm in central WV and am willing to help out. Sometimes you just have to experience it before you can understand it.
Unfortunately, if you've ever reset your Nav to zero you've lost it on the computer. However I've kept detailed data on this to ultimately prove to myself I made a good decision. I not only track (on an excel spreadsheet) current and lifetime FE based on gallons used, but I also track what the computer would show on lifetime by keeping track of the computer reading each fill up and backing into a theoritical gallons used (assuming the computer was correct) and calculate what the computer lifetime average would be. One other calculation I make is a "corrected" FE based on a milage odometer correction due to the error in the odometer as found by using a GPS unit.
This may sound complicated but it's not. After setting up the spreadsheet to do automatic calculations all I enter is current data and the spreadsheet spits out al the extra calculations.
What I've found is that the manual calculation is on the low end, the computer readout is on the high end and the odometer corrected FE reading is almost in the middle.
Bottom line is the computer overstates the FE on the high side, and a manual calculation, assumed by most to be more precise, understates the FE due to the odometer error.
Philly or rural? I live in a rural area of WV and I believe that helps some. However while traveling this week I was in Baltimore, DC, and over to the coast and back in some heavy traffic. I was able to maintain 39+ on that part of my trip.
Having said that, I am not one to settle for average. I would be so depressed if the my mpg ever drop that low. The TCH is definitely capable of getting 40+ mpg but short drives from a cold start is a little tough. I have noticed that my engine wont back down unless I have driven 1.5 mile at speed 25-40 mph and that's with ambient temp around 75. If the engine refuse to back down even with the battery gauge at mid level, there are two things that I do. If I am in a 25mph zone, I pull over and park it for a few sec. Usually the mpg pin drops and I start it up again but slowly. If I am in a 40 mph zone, I gun it to 42+ mph for a few sec and then hope that the pin drops to E. THat has worked so far.
Just out of curiosity, how many traffic stops are there in your 7 mile trip. What level is your battery indicator in at the start and end of your trip?
Also, that you still have 3 gallon even though the gauge is at E is normal. Mine is that way too.
That one sentence explains your MPG. The HSD was conserving fuel on those downhill grades.
That's the beauty of it, but you'll never save enough going downhill to make up for the real steep grades found in the mountains. Nothing's flat (even Arizona)and that's why you can get incredible milage with pulse and glide techniques. Good FE on slight slopes and outstanding FE on slight down slopes.
Good luck improving mileage
Bob
Lot's of people do, but I wouldn't recommend taking her with you when you're looking
I averaged 36.3 MPG. I'm not sure what my '97 Camry 4 or my '06 Hyundai Sonata 4 would have averaged on that trip, since I live in southeastern PA and have never driven that route before. However, I doubt they would have averaged more than the upper 20s.
The car was surprisingly powerful when the pedal was floored, and I would certainly consider one for my next car. A few concerns, however:
1) trunk space. Somehow the batteries are going to have to be shrunk or relocated for this car to become more popular.
2) lack of pre-set "shift" points. On cars with automatic transmissions, on hills I am used to downshifting manually for a bit of engine braking without hitting the brake pedal. The braking provided by the "B" setting on the TCH is much too severe. I believe Nissan has a full range of shift points on its CVTs.
3) some engine knock at times. It wasn't my car, so I wasn't about to buy premium gas for it.
4) I still wanted to know what the engine was up to and would have appreciated a tachometer in addition to the MPG meter.
5) engine start button sometimes got confused and couldn't sense the key fob.
Overall, however, I was impressed.
I haven't been following this thread. I'm sure these issues have been addressed before. Just my two cents.
It's the braking on downhills that charge the battery. That's a key benefit of the hybrid. Above 12mph, normal braking is not done with the hydraulic brake system so your "engine braking" preference is just that, a preference and is not something to be missed on the hybrid.
I still wanted to know what the engine was up to and would have appreciated a tachometer.
Pretty meaningless information. The RPM's are controlled and with the combination of battery assist the reading of a tach would probably never make sence to someone unfamiliar with the hybrid. Many times crusing at 80mph on flat interstate my engine is at idle. A lot of times under 42mph my engine is not even running. (However, I understand that it may be turning over so reading the rpm's with no fuel consumption is sort of meaningless too)
Some of your concerns are not a concern once you understand the way the system works
I have taken several long (1500+ miles) trips since I bought my 2007 TCH in June 2006, and with proper planning and logistical arrangement, I have never had a problem getting everything for four people into the trunk.
I have packed it so well that once my Grandmother, after seeing the half room of stuff I unpacked from that trunk and then viewing the empty trunk, commented "I can't believe you got all that stuff in that trunk."
It's deceptively larger than it looks.
Honestly speaking, I don't think that a smallish trunk size should be the deciding factor in a new car purchase. That shopper is not seeing the entire vehicle but is looking at one minor shortcoming which can be easily overcome with some good planning.
PS. Getting 35.4 MPG in mine lifetime so far almost 20,000 miles.
You may not miss it. I do.
Pretty meaningless information.
Engine speed indicates how hard the engine is working and how much strain it is under. If it were meaningless, no car with an automatic transmission would have a tachometer.
Larsb, you might be right, considering that the ice caps are melting. But if you look at the consumer reviews on Edmunds for the TCH, many buyers have criticized the trunk size. If buyers have found fault with this feature, it undoubtedly has turned off prospective buyers, too.
I am not saying you can't live with it, and it's good you've found a "workaround." I just think that for this hybrid to gain wider acceptance in the marketplace as a substitute for a conventionally powered car, Toyota should consider increasing the trunk size. Transmission shift points are probably something most people wouldn't think about as part of a purchase decision. But the trunk is.
The Nissan Altima Hybrid has the same powertrain design. The eCVT in the TCH and NAH have only one "gear" -- only one ratio and it never changes. The electric traction motor provides the torque at low speeds and the ICE provides the torque at high speeds (only the electric motor can produce torque at 0 RPM to start moving).
Quote: On cars with automatic transmissions, on hills I am used to downshifting manually for a bit of engine braking without hitting the brake pedal. The braking provided by the "B" setting on the TCH is much too severe.
You want to use the regenerative braking (done automatically by the brake pedal) since that recharges the battery and the energy is recovered. Engine braking is lost energy. The only reason to use "B" is on extremely long downgrades where the battery is fully charged and the car has to use its hydraulic brakes. You get control of the braking by pressing on the gas -- this reduces the engine braking (the engine slows the harder you press as long as it is still braking).
You always need to keep in mind that the gas pedal is not connected to the ICE throttle. The ICE is only controlled by the engine computer. That takes getting used to.
Your opinion as an owner changes once you pack it nice and full a couple of times and realize how much stuff it can really hold.
Might it be designed a little bigger in the future? Sure. But do it because people are not buying the car unless the trunk is bigger? I seriously doubt that as a reason for not buying a car.
If you are a person who needs to pack huge amounts of stuff around all the time, you are probably shopping for something larger than a 5-passenger sedan. Maybe a hatchback. Or a Ford Escape.
For a normal 4-person family, using the car for long trips? That trunk is fine.
Thanks for the lesson. Not wanting to argue, but...after 30,000 miles in a hybrid, I've not found a situation where I can strain the engine. The Power Splitting Device (sorry it doesn't really have a transmission) working with the engine and the electric motor pretty well keeps things in line. Flooring a ICE only automatic may indeed strain the engine, especially if you're manually going through the gears or engine braking. Typically though I'm pretty sure I read where the hybrid system will not allow the engine to go over 4500RPM's in a TCH. I've floored mine (it does make a lot of noise like most 4cyl's indicating some strain on the engine) and I've had it over 100 mph without any detectable strain. I've cruised at "idle" at 90mph as well allowing the battery to provide the power to maintain speed.
If it wasn't for electronic limiters yes I could blow the guts out of an ICE only car (came close to it a couple of times).
That's conventional thinking and this is no conventional car.
As far as engine braking goes, I'd hate to follow someone that is not using their brake lights to slow their car. Additionally it provides little benefit for the hybrid driver and negates one of the most important features of the system, regenerative braking.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but at 38.2mpg over 30,600 miles, I'll stay with what works.
I suppose a tach in an automatic might more easily signal a problem if the rpms looked out of whack. Otherwise, it has little value. It's there mostly because (male) drivers want to see one.
1) The trunk is definitely smaller than most people would expect with a sedan and, believe it or not, I would agree with you that this may cost a few sales. However, I also agree with larsb that the trunk is much more useful than it would seem. I personally have never had a problem with the size of the trunk. Indeed, in practice, I would think that these days most (not all but most) people who buy a TCH also have an SUV or truck or whatever for when they have a lot of "things" to haul.
2) I think you are right in that the CVT in the TCH and the one Altima uses are different (although the Altima Hybrid does use the drivetrain of the TCH) but you should only try to "engine brake" with a hybrid, any hybrid, under the most extreme circumstances. Braking is used to recharge the battery in the hybrid. You state it is your preference and I can respect that but I would say it is a preference that you should give up if you ever get a hybrid. I just hope that is not a deal-killer for you.
3) I have about 15,000 on my TCH, regularly put "Regular" in it and have never experienced any knock. The one thing I will scan think of is that Toyota recommends 87-octane but there are a few gas stations that sell 85-octane. Since yours was a rental car, it is possible that someone put in the 85-octane gas; indeed, it is even possible that the rental place you picked up the car uses 85-octane gas for their fleet.
4) I like tachometers, too, and my heart is with you on this one but I must agree with the others. Tachometers are pretty useless with modern automatics. The engine electronics keep it from overworking except under the most extreme circumstances and when the engine is overworking, you can hear and "sense" it; making the tachometer a bit superfluous. (That goes for most cars these days, not just the TCH.) But I agree, it still would be "cool" to have one.
5) Probably a problem with it being an "abused" rental. In almost (three weeks short of) a year and 15,000 miles of ownership, I have never had this problem.
I am glad you liked your TCH experience, all-in-all, and hope you decide to join the "Hybrid Club." I am extremely satisfied with my TCH and think it is the best car I have ever owned. The only thing I would add for you is, since you live in Pennsylvania (and evidently like Nissan's CVT better than Toyota's), give the Altima Hybrid a try. You might like it even better than the TCH.
I agree but you will need to visit NJ or NY Nissan dealers instead.
RPMS ARE meaningless on this particular car on a way that they are not in a non-hybrid. Because the hybrid system uses both engine power and battery power, simply tracking the number of revolutions doesn't tell you much of anything. The car is constantly adjusting itself, so you'd likely see wide, constant variances of the needle much more so than in a normal car. I suspect that Toyota figured that buyers would be somewhat perplexed to see one of their gauges flipping out when they were driving at a constant speed, even though that's really what happens because the engine will essentially start shutting itself down and letting the battery assist.
There IS a display showing you where you power is coming from, and in models with the nav system you get a much more complete picture. It took me a while to adjust to life without a tach, too, but when I understood the system I realized that the MPG meter is really measuring the same thing--how hard the car is working.
I bought my TCH in Pennsylvania. What warranty do we have on the battery?