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Comments
It seems to me that Toyota may have implemented the new EPA testing criteria in advance of the 2008 MY date. Whereas the other HSD vehicles got close to EPA values with some effort, this TCH gets there with little or no effort.
It sure does put to rest the argumentation that 'hybrids never get close to their EPA numbers'.
Hybrid Highlander forum:
Post #2890 by cdtrap
Toyota Camry Hybrid forum::
Posts #843 and #848
In the meantime, I have the option of buying a new TCH in early July. But with the kind of mileage I'm getting out of my VW, even assuming I beat the TCH's mpg rating, I would probably get no more than 10 more mpg than with the VW. So it doesn't make economic sense then to go with the TCH. However, are there other reasons one should consider? Like, is the TCH a much cleaner burning vehicle?
The TCH will be significantly cleaner. It carries the best rating possible for a gas powered vehicle (I believe it's something like 90% cleaner than the average 2003 model year car). The atkinson cycle engine burns fuel much more efficiency, I imagine the catalytic converter is more efficient, and the car has evaporative control. Even opening the fuel door for refueling is computer controlled. You press a button on the dash and the computer evaluates the pressure inside the fuel tank. It does something which the manual does not say for certain before opening what I imagine is some kind of pressure lock valve, then the fuel door opens for use.
Aside from that, certainly the TCH is just one of many ways to achieve good fuel economy and it's not the cheapest way either, but it's hard to beat it on the "this is really cool" factor.
Thanks
My wife thought I was crazy. When we pulled into the lot I parked, got out of the car but then noticed the space at the end was empty. I jumped back into the car and backed it into the space and quickly took some pictures before another car came in and parked beside me. I was able to get 45 while on the island but my drive through the VA and WV mountains brought my average down to similar to yours. All in all incredible none the less.
The last two tanks have been 37.5 mpg and 36.3 mpg, and that's about 50/50 city/freeway driving. Freeway includes both stretches of several miles of 60-70 mph as well as Houston rush-hour, bumper-to-bumper, stop-n-go traffic. My commute is about 17 miles each way, with a mile or so at each end where I can pretty much run on electric at 35-40 mph. I've followed all the driving suggestions to maximize mileage, but I honestly don't know what else I could do to eke out more MPG. Well, now I think I know.
I filled up again last night right before I got home (that was the 36.3 tank) and since it was cool this morning - only about 80 degrees - I decided to try driving to work without the A/C. WOW! What a difference! Windows were up, fan was blowing, but no A/C. I drove my exact same route to work in the exact same manner, but the electric motor was on much more of the time and was quicker to engage. My tank average when I reached work was 43.4 mpg. I'd guess that if I'd had the A/C running that it would've been 37 or maybe 38.
Not much I can do about the need for A/C in Houston much of the year, but at least now I can stop wondering what I've been doing "wrong".
I do think that if I was driving like I used to in my old car my MPG would probably be in the high 20's. I can't say for sure as I haven't really tried that yet.
If there was one improvement I would wish on the TCH, it would be that it recognize when you are going 30 or 35 MPH and go to battery only without having to let go of the accelerator.
All in all i am still very happy with my vehicle and still have lots of things that I am learning how to use. Have not even gotten to the Nav system yet.
I do, I do - I do all that! I take 288 in from Pearland and don't get off until the south edge of downtown so I don't have the benefit of the Memorial stretch :-( It's really only the end of my drive that I can run on battery for any distance, once I get into downtown or once I get back to my subdivision after work. In the beginning of the drive while I'm still in the subdivision the car hasn't warmed up enough. Or coming home the engine is cold during my drive through downtown, though when it's 95+ degrees out it does tend to warm up pretty fast and I do get some battery driving. It's just never very much either way of my commute. It also doesn't help when some a** is riding my bumper, wanting to do 50 in a 35 zone.
But...the average mileage I'm getting is still at least 10 mpg greater than on my previous car, so I really shouldn't complain.
However, when driving in downtown Montreal, which (to me) is similar to driving in Manhattan, trip milage can be anything between 25 and 40. It all depends on how often green traffic lights let you coast in EV mode.
Close-spaced stop signs and red traffic lights are mpg killers because you must begin braking before having even reached 35 mph.
I measured (at 300 miles on the ODO) that battery drain and charge currents are under 20 amperes (± 5 HP) in usual conditions. I think the TCH is designed this way to make sure its battery will last for more than 8 years.
The dowside of this design choice is that at least 50% of the car's kinetic energy is lost during regenerative breaking.
I drive mostly freeway, but always hit rush hour traffic comming home and sometimes on the way to work. It often takes 45 minutes to an hour (or more) to go 25 miles. This week has been hot, 90 to 103F on the way home, so the A/C got a workout too.
I try to avoid braking and brake lightly when I have to. I also use B instead of Drive when under 15 mph to better control my speed in bumper to bumper traffic, especially on downhill grades.
It does not go to EV mode frequently enough in my opinion to completely utilize the HSD system to it's fullest in City driving.
At least my TCH is that way, but I have a very short commute, just 7 miles one way.
Don't try to accellerate from a stop in EV mode unless you just want to creep at 10 or 15 mph, it just takes too long without the ICE, and really draws down the battery compared to maintaining your speed.
That early initial oil change seems prudent to me, but I have asked them twice about that.
What is the overall recommendation from others with some mileage on their TCH's?
In the 80's with my BMW's they recommended an early change. I believe if a manufacturer felt they did not have an engine completely clean or that there would be early particles from the manufacturing process that needed filtered out then they would recommend a change at 1500 miles. The fact that they don't and then they warrant the powertrain for 60,000 miles makes me believe they have confidence in their scheduled maintenance.
I don't know if the TCH has a more frequent schedule than a SE v6 or 4cy, but 5000 miles seems like a conservative schedule. A lot of engines with computer maintenance controls may let you go up to 10,000 miles based on your driving habits.
A 4000 mile trip is a good example (unless you're towing) of a situation where 7500 or even 10,000 miles before you change the oil would be adequate.
I changed mine at 5000 miles.
I have a G35 coupe and have gotten 34.5 mpg on the highway when I go 57 mph. To avoid the irate followers I find a slow truck and stay near it. I use the truck as my excuse. Don't get too close or you might get debris from the truck.
The speed you go is so important on gas mileage. By the way, when I go 70-80 mph I get around 28 mpg (not bad).
jlo
Wow, that's pretty incredible for G35 Coupe. I had a 03 350Z (considered the G, probably should have gotten it) I averaged about 21.07 mpg on the Z in 16,278 miles with the same engine as your G. My FX45 that I traded for the TCH averaged 16.3 mpg.
I'd have a difficult time driving the G like my TCH, too much temptation.
My milage on the TCH is posted on GreenHybrid.com. I'm currently at 38.8 mpg over 5005 miles. I can get 38 to 41 driving with purpose, but I'm not sure how I would get below 36 without simply trying to do it. If the Lexus ES had a hybrid I might have gotten it as I did like the "quality" of my Infinity but the TCH is a great car for what it is and I'm extremely happy with it. I'm guessing I'll never go back to a gas guzzler now.
(PS: I finally started pulling over and letting the blue hairs by me. It disturbed me watching someones granny flipping me off....just kidding)
I have had my TCH for about three weeks now. Have only been running short trips to the store etc. and getting about 35-36mpg. Yesterday took a bit longer day trip to Newport RI and tried to see what kind of mileage I could achieve. I was amazed, I averaged 44.5MPG going and returned at 43.5mpg. It was only a trip of 40 miles but it showed me what this car can do. Quite a car!
Bob
When I filled up yesterday (551 miles), the Tank average in the car marked 39 MPG. Actual computed ( by me) MPG is 38.4.
I drive with the A/C in ECO mode most of the time. I have turned it off on a couple of cool evenings. I have the Michelin tires at whatever air pressure they were set at the dealer.
Overall I find that achieving the highway EPA estimates is quite easy. I can't say the same for city driving. It takes some work and dedication in the city to get close to EPA estimates and if you are on a road with where there is a light at every corner and lots of stopping and starting, it will be difficult to achieve. The tools are there to help you though. Short trips also tend to impact the average negatively.
Don't know what you drove before the TCH but isn't 38.4 incredible for such a large comfortable car!!!!!
tom
Traded my 03 Avalon for the TCH. The Camry Hybrid is not as quiet (road noise) or as roomy as the Avalon. Will miss the large trunk but if I get 40mpg it's probably worth it.
NON-HYBRID-4CYLINDER 07 CAMRY: I did test drive the 07 Camry (Avis rental) 4 cyliinder non-hybrid before delivery of MY TCH and got 21.8 (284miles) city and 29.9 highway (389 miles)for an overall 25.88. Again this was the non-hybrid 4 cylinder.
Thanks
Bing
The 2003-2005 Civic Hybrid tank is rated at 13.2 gallons, and one user put a little over 16 gallons in his HCH one time.
Ford Ranger is another vehicle which has an understated tank capacity.
TCH now also is added to the list.
This indicates the mpg hit could be up to 8 mpg or more. Indications while driving otherwise has indicated at least 4-5 mpg hit.
This would explain some of the large variances posted for real world mpg I've seen on this site.
I have almost 2700 miles on the car now (loaded - silver). Below is my actual MPG data to date (area is mostly low rolling hills - Central Virginia, and I have only use AC in ECO mode so far):
1st tank - 37.6 indicated, 35.2 calculated - using AC most of the time, combination highway, city, rural secondary roads. Pretty sure dealer did not have tank full.
2nd tank - 38.6 indicated, 38.74 calculated - Start of a long trip, AC always on, almost all highway miles at 60 to 70 mph.
3rd tank - 36.6 indicated, 35.2 calculated - AC almost always on, first 200 miles highway, rest was combination.
4th tank - 38.5 indicated, 36.9 calculated - AC always on, start of trip back home, highway miles.
5th tank - 40.1 indicated, 40.4 calculated - rest of trip home, then some combination driving.
This gives a calculated overall average of 37.23 so far.
Currently on the 6th tank with tank average of 43.2 indicated at 350 miles on the tank. I drove the first 125 miles shooting for max mileage (no AC and using all the tricks) and had 46.3 indicated at 125. Then I had to do more higher speed highway miles and use AC on hot days and mileage dropped to as low as 42.4. I still expect I'll get about 41 calculated on this tank. It continues to get better as I get more used to the car.
Looking forward to even better mpg as car gets broken in.
There are some things I will give up (speeding for one) but A/C is not one of them, especially for a 4-5 mpg advantage on a commute. That might possibly save you a quarter on some of the commutes people have described. I'd rather give up my paper or coffee to pay for the A/C.
I got 36.96 MPG calculated, with that being mostly interstate driving with the air always on">, with a little city time mixed in for good measure.
I guess I don't understand camyg's posting...where is the reading referred to as 'indicated' on the car. I read the manual...maybe it is one of the screens I have not used?
Thanks...
Don't understand the question.
You have an "instant" FE gage on the left of the dash.
You have a Tank Average as one of the several modes on the screen between the Instant gage and the speedo.
If you have the Nav system you have a screen showing the consumption by minute for the past 30 minutes and you have a reset button to reset the average FE calculation for your trip.
However I'm not sure what you mean by "indicated" reading.
Appreciate the reply...
My wife gets upset with me for using the Consumption and Energy screens instead of the NAV mapping screen most of the time. I know where I'm at most of the time so I find using these screens is more interesting and helps me to understand what's going on under the hood.
While the price of the NAV system can't be justified by having these two screen options I do find them a nice bonus over the non-NAV system cars. It certainly provides me "entertainment".
To clarify our "city" driving, it is my wife driving like a typical "soccer mom" driving 10 minutes to each dropoff/pickup. The computer readout displays in the low 30's when we drive longer than 15 or so minutes.
I tried all the techniques in the hybrid forums and could not improve on it. As a comparison, our AWD station wagon with an EPA rating of 19 gets 14 in identical driving. When we had a Dodge Caravan FWD which got about 15.
We hope it gets better when it breaks in, even still we reduce our gas consumption by 1/2.
Keep trying (practicing). I don't see any way to get that low if you're serious about getting max FE. many people on here say they just want to drive it and that's OK. But if you really want to try and are dedicated to that effort it can and will pay off with higher numbers. I'm convinced anyone can average 35 if they are willing to sacrifice old driving styles (however many people are not)
I think that is the singlemost important issue with maximizing FE with a hybrid. It seems many people buy these and don't want to change the way they drive. Yes the hybrid will still do better than the 4c but the gains driving with hybrid techniques is nothing short of amazing.
I bought the hybrid recognizing it would be a major shift in my driving attitude. I was not real sure I would stick with it but after 7400 miles I have bought into this driving style.
My friends think I've lost my marbles. I've always driven 10 to 15 mph OVER the limit (sometimes more), now I typically drive 5 mph UNDER the limit. It's less stressful driving like this and great for my FE.
I've found that driving at the limit usually means you're globbed up with cars all around you. That's why I always drove over the limit. Stay in front, when you catch up pass'em all and get in front. I've drove this way for 30 years, usually with cars quite capable of staying in front. NOW, I've found that at 5 mph under the limit you don't get stuck in the middle of a crowd of cars. I absolutely recommend this to everyone. It's relaxing to drive this way (on 4 lane roads at least_on 2 lane roads people get irritated)