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2013 and earlier Lexus RX 350 Prices Paid and Buying Experience

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Comments

  • ilya1ilya1 Member Posts: 9
    I got a $41,000 price from a dealer in Englewood (Northern NJ).
    This is for AWD with NAV + $199 doc fee + tax.
    I think I could have gotten a few hundred dollars more from them. If you are interested, let me know I can give you the salesman's name.
    The key is for them to have the car in stock.
    Best regards,
    Ilya.
  • heyub2heyub2 Member Posts: 7
    Thanks ilya1. Please e-mail me the salesman's name & number. Did you negotiate the deal face-to-face, or via e-mail? What was the MSRP?
  • solar2000solar2000 Member Posts: 25
    Hi Heyub2,

    The quote I got was from Massachusetts. The best price I could get was 40800 for the car without tax, 199 doc fee, or registration fee. I've heard of people getting better prices, but this is the best I could find. GOod luck wiht your search.
  • heyub2heyub2 Member Posts: 7
    Solar:

    Thanks for getting back to me. I'll let you know how I make out!
  • aujoe1aujoe1 Member Posts: 3
    Bham, AL - 1 week ago, 2008 RX 350 FWD, Premium Plus, Nav, Graphite Rims, Htd seats, rain sensing wipers, wheel locks - $41k OTD.
  • meishameisha Member Posts: 13
    I am in the Los Angeles area. I am looking at a 2008 RX350 FWD, prem. plus pkg, nav, 18" tires, cargo mat, wheel locks, mudguards. What would be a very good price to pay OTD? Any dealerships I should check out? I am in no hurry to buy. Can wait until December. I have never had to negotiate the purchase price on a car so this will be my first time.

    I test drove the SUV this past Saturday at Longo Lexus and the salesman did not seem interested in selling me the car. I had to ask to see the truck, the nav system, stereo system. After test driving the car, he merely handed me a brochure. I guess he didn't think I could afford it since I drove up in my 11 year old Acura Integra. If I wasn't so set on a RX350 I would buy the Acura MDX.
  • heyub2heyub2 Member Posts: 7
    Has anyone recently purchased an '08 RX 350 (prem. w/navigation) in the Central NJ vicinity? If so, please share the price you obtained, and the experience you had working with the dealer.
  • heyub2heyub2 Member Posts: 7
    llya:

    Please e-mail me the name & number of the salesman you worked with at Englewood Lexus. My e-mail address is:
    heyub2@yahoo.com
  • lexusrxsearchlexusrxsearch Member Posts: 12
    I just bought the same Lexus:
    08 RX 350 AWD Blue/Ivory from Prestige Lexus in Ramsey, NJ. VERY GOOD EXPERIENCE -- straightforward negotiating and closing the deal. Ask for the Lamb.
    Same pricing as yours:
    $40700 plus $149 doc plus $100 regis plus tax.
  • env_engrenv_engr Member Posts: 12
    I have just finished a deal at Lexus Glendale, CA

    2008 RX 350 FWD
    Premiuim plus package, navigation system, 18 inch wheels, heated seats with rain sensing wipers, wheel locks, cargo mat, tow prep package.

    MSRP - $44,306
    Dealer Invoice - $39,513
    Price Paid - $38,213
    Doc prep fee - $55
    Sales Tax (CA 8.25%) - $3157
    DMV electronic filing fee - $28
    License fee - $301
    CA tire fee - $8.75
    Smog fee - $12

    TOTAL OUT THE DOOR - $41,775

    By the way, I drove in my 10 year old Toyota Avalon..so that doe not matter! good luck!
  • psu77psu77 Member Posts: 13
    Can you please share some of your wisdom on how you got that car for $1,300 under invoice.
  • britcrlvrbritcrlvr Member Posts: 83
    seems pretty good,

    1) does this include license and registration
    2) as you are in alabama how high is the demand for this car in your area, if it low i would offer 39k otd
  • britcrlvrbritcrlvr Member Posts: 83
    1) two words: supply and demand. supply is higher than demand.
    2) what features do you want on your vehicle email me and I will tell you what to pay.

    email me at peregrinator@cox.net
  • kmellokmello Member Posts: 2
    FYI - I took this email string into the Lexus Newport Beach dealer and we made the deal - 2008 RX350 for $38,873.00. The one we bought had the graphite rims along with same nav/preium package as described in previous email. We had no trade in and we only financed $15K through Costco's auto loan program (we got 5.90% for 48month term).

    My wife and I are very happy with this deal!

    Thanks to WEB2.0
  • env_engrenv_engr Member Posts: 12
    It appears to be a very good deal.
    Does the price $38,873 include taxes and license? is that an AWD or FWD?
  • kmellokmello Member Posts: 2
    I can tell you they were happy to get us out the door - nice but certainly not real patient with answering questions about the car. -- but that was cool with us. It is FWD without taxes.
  • solar2000solar2000 Member Posts: 25
    Thats funny. When I was in NJ, I had emailed Billy Lamb and he hounded me like crazy. We ended up moving and weren't able to buy from them... but I'm glad to hear that pricing was fair and your experience was good. Nice colors too!
  • maxicarmaxicar Member Posts: 1
    Hi
    May I ask:

    with or without options (prem plus pkg, etc)
    with sales tax, destination?

    I heard good reviews about this dealership and Mr. Lamb.
    I live in Long Island wondering if its worth the trip.

    Could I say I was referred by you?
    Do you mind providing your name?

    Thank you
    Maxine
  • lexusrxsearchlexusrxsearch Member Posts: 12
    I just bought my RX 350 AWD with Premium Plus and Nav from Lamb @ Prestige - he's very straightforward, thorough and reliable. Sold at invoice before tax, plus $149 for docs, and $100 for CT registration. I drove over to NJ because Prestige had a good reputation AND their prices were better than CT or NY dealers. Very easy deal, would do it again.
  • dmashokdmashok Member Posts: 1
    I bought a new (demo) 2007 RX 350 FWD from the above dealer today for $39950 out of the door. It has the navigation and premium plus package (no Mark Levinson) and xenon lights. The demo had 5000 miles on it and showroom condition. The price included 6% MI sales tax and $100 doc. fees (couldn't talk out of it). Overall it was a pleasant experience - I had a haggle a bit (went back and forth a couple of times). Thanks for this forum.

    I would recommend Lexus of Ann Arbor, MI for anyone buying a Lexus in MI. Ask for Joan Glass sales person, she was very helpful and not your ordinary sales person.

    - Ashok
  • brgerfliprbrgerflipr Member Posts: 3
    First of all, I'd like to thank everyone on this forum for all the helpful information. Here's my contribution.

    -'08 rx350, AWD, premium pkg w/ nav.
    - 40900 + 100 doc fee, taxes, registration & tags.

    Email me for salesmen's name, he was very pleasant to work with.

    M.
  • newmbfannewmbfan Member Posts: 59
    I am looking at a 2008 FWD.

    $37122.00

    2700 down

    $20175 residual

    money factor of .00195

    15000 miles 36 month

    3.O Sales tax

    $549 doc fee and transfers. (I know it is nuts but that is standard in Raleigh and non-negotiable with any of the dealers.)

    How can I calculate the lease?

    The dealer wants $553.00 tax included.
  • carbuyer120carbuyer120 Member Posts: 1
    Please tell me at the e-mail address below your salesman's name and phone number. My e-mail address is lgrandis@mcguirewoods.com
  • delta737hdelta737h Member Posts: 626
    newmbfan,

    There are two cardinal rules in leasing (1) ALWAYS establish sell price first and (2) Know how to compute the lease payment. That said, let me give you some methodology or a general framework in which to work. I'm a big believer in educating people and have a very strong academic orientation. I subscribe to the belief that if you take a man fishing, he'll eat for a day; but, if you show a man how to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime.

    Check edmunds or kbb for MSRP/Invoice pricing as well as customer/dealer incentives so that you can arrive at a reasonable selling price. In leasing lingo, this is called the agreed upon value. Here are all the piece parts that you'll need in order to compute the payment...

    MSRP

    (V) Agreed Upon Value (Sell Price)

    (S) Security Deposit Requirement (e.g., Payment w/tax rounded to the next $25 or $50)

    (Q) Acquisition Fee/Doc. Fee

    (T) Sales Tax Rate and the method your state uses to compute sales tax

    (K) Capitalized Cost Reductions (Cash/Trade Credit)

    (F) Amounts Financed (capitalized) or rolled into the lease

    (M) Cost of Money (i.e., money factor/interest rate)

    (R) Residual Value = Residual Factor (%) x MSRP but see 3(b) below

    (N) Term (months)

    Next, we'll need the following identity...

    A = V + F - K

    where...

    A = Adjusted Capitalized Cost

    Now, you're well positioned to compute the payment...

    Base Payment (P) = M x (A + R) + (A - R)/N

    Most states compute sales tax on the payment streams...

    Payment w/tax = P x (1 + T)

    Other states, like Ohio, compute sales tax on the total payments. Others, compute payment on the depreciation and, of course, there are those that compute sales tax on the agreed upon value. I used to know what North Carolina did but have forgotten. So, I'll leave that to you to figure out.

    Some important things to know...

    (1) Money Factor/Interest Rates...

    (a) The interest rate can be estimated by multiplying the money factor (0.00XXX) by 2400.

    (b) ALWAYS ask for the base rate or what is sometimes called the buy rate. Both mean the same thing. A fund provider's rates have a tiered structure. For example...

    0.00150 + 0% reserves (buy rate)

    0.00160 + 1% reserves

    0.00170 + 2% reserves

    etc.

    Reserves are similar to points paid for a mortgage loan. For instance, 1% reserves means that the dealer receives compensation from the fund provider in the amount of 1% of the adjusted cap cost (excluding acquisition fee) as a reward for writing the lease at a higher rate. And so, reserves are a potential profit center for dealers. The customer never sees it because the reserves are embedded in the cost of money whether it be in the form of a money factor or an interest rate. If the dealer insists on reserves, I always deduct the dollar equivalent from the sell price.

    (c) Most fund providers use a money factor. However, a few (e.g., Ford Credit, GMAC) use an interest rate.

    (2) Acq Fees/Doc Fees

    (a) Acquisition fees are charged by the fund provider for preparing documents and booking the lease. Doc fees are charged by dealers and are another potental profit center. Be careful, though, some dealers will add a profit margin to the acquisition fee. It's best to call a few dealers and inquire about a given fund provider's acquisition fee. Doc fees should run between $50 and $250. A $549 doc fee seems ridiculous. I would want to know what that fee includes (e.g., title/registration fees?). Otherwise, I would look for another dealer unless they're willing to lower the price.

    (3) Residuals

    (a) Residuals are fixed by the fund provider and can't be changed or manipulated by the dealer. The industry bench mark is the Automotive Lease Guide's (ALG) residual factors. They are the standard by which all others are judged. And so, I would want to know the ALG residual for comparison purposes. Most banks use ALG residuals. However, the finance captives often self insure their residuals and are free to set them as they deem fit.

    (b) Dealer add-ons are often not fully residualized because fund providers know that dealers inflate the costs of adds. And so, they'll limit the cost of adds. For example, a dealer installed moon roof retailing for $1800 might be limited to only $1000. And so, a car with an MSRP of $30,000 before the add would have an adjusted MSRP of $31,000 after the add. It is the adjusted MSRP that the residual calculation is based.

    (4) Capitalized Cost Reductions

    (a) If you can avoid making a down payment, you would be well advised to do so. A car is a depreciating asset. Furthermore, if you total the vehicle, it's not likely that you'll recover all or even a portion of your down payment.

    (5) Security Deposits

    (a) Some fund providers will waive the security deposit in exchange for a slightly higher money factor. This is usually a bad idea. Others (e.g., BMW), will lower the money factor in exchange for multiple security deposits (MSD's). This can be a very good deal. See the BMW Series 3 forums.

    Based on the data that you provided, I'll assume that $37,122 is the sell price and that $34,422 ($37,122 - $2,700) is the adjusted cap. Therefore, I'm assuming that there are no capitalized items. The base payment is calculated as follows...

    P = M x (A + R) + (A - R)/N

    = 0.00195 x (34,422 + 20,175) + (34,422 - 20,175)/36

    = 502.21

    If your sales tax rate is 3.0%, then your payment w/tax is $517.28. Apparently, something is missing if the dealer claims that the payment w/tax amounts to $553.

    At lease origination, you'll pay...

    1st payment + tax

    Security Deposit

    Acquisition Fee

    Doc Fee (does it include title/registration/tags?)

    Tax on down payment

    License, title, fees unless this fee is already included in the doc fee. In consideration of $549, it had better!

    Suggestion...

    Create a one page lease proposal similar to mine found in the Infiniti, Acura TSX, and Mercedes Benz S Class forums. It will save you lots of money, time, and aggravation.

    Hope this helps.

    John
    Medina, Ohio
  • uhicuhic Member Posts: 2
    Did you buy or lease. Did you get anything special or you just insisted on this price.
  • uhicuhic Member Posts: 2
    I am in the market for a new car. I just started a job where I will make 160.000 plus bonuses. However, I have a 3500.00 mortgage plus bills. My 1995 mustang is on its last leg. Imagine me in a shirt and tie in Fl. With no A/C. Anyway, I want to buy a new car. Since I have 2 kids, 4 and 1, I was thinking about a small SUV. Now, here is my dilemma.

    1- Do I lease or buy. Lease would make sense, since I may have a greater income in 3-5 yrs and may want a bigger car. I would save more money, buying may be best.

    2- Do I go for the luxury car now or later. I could go for a non luxury car (murano, highlander, explore) and get a premium package. Maybe lease it and then buy the lux in 3 yrs. Or go for it now and get the lux. if payments are not that much different.

    3- I really want the lux. I think I can afford it, but I am very careful not to live above my means. That is how I maintain an 800 credit score. What model should I go with? Lexus, BMW, Acura, MB etc. I heard that lexus gives you more for your buck, so I am looking mostly at them.

    I am in Orlando florida, but I am willing to go anywhere in Florida to pick up a good deal.

    I know it is a lot, but I am very confuse and would love anyone's input

    Thanks,
    Uhic
  • andy1993andy1993 Member Posts: 26
    aujoe1

    please let where you brought your rx350 in Birmingham, al. At tom Williams lexus. what was the name of the sales person and what was mrsp.

    thanks,

    andy
  • charming888charming888 Member Posts: 1
    Hi, Could you please kindly tell me which dealership did you get the deal of $42500 OTD and who is the contact person? Is this an 08 or 07 model? Does it have Premium Plus and Navigation package? Thanks!!
  • britcrlvrbritcrlvr Member Posts: 83
    you and I were discussing tactics about car prices, and we had our differences, however, I believe that you are knowledable in the field of leasing, and I would be interested in knowing your thought process.
  • britcrlvrbritcrlvr Member Posts: 83
    You make some valid points, I think that you could get luxury, but Lexus seems to increase the price of its vehicles, yes reliability is excellent, but less expensive manufacturer's are making a vehicle that fully loaded will run you several thousand less than a lexus. I presume you are looking at the rx model considering the fact thaty you don't want a bulky suv, yet you want something that will haul two children. Clearly. the Explorer, is the least expensive of all three and would give you the most options later on. However, I think that although quality has improved in American made car's the Explorer is built on a truck chassis which means that road isolation and quetness as well as comfort is going to be minimized. secondly, there are too many cost cutting materials in that car for my liking. Howver, price is a positive. The Nissan Murano has been out for several years, and has sold fairly well, Considering the Infiniti FX a more expensive Murano is going to be redesigned, within the next year or so I wiould expect the same for the Murano. Reliability shhould be well above average, and you could get a pretty good deal on this car. I think the Acura MDX and Acura RDX are just plain ugly, and the RDX is going to be slightly smaller than what you are looking for, this is just my hunch. Unless you want a used X5 I would say it is better to wait on this, a used M-Class can be purchased at a reasonable price, beware of the old body style (more boxy) as there have been major quality problems. I think a year old Infinit FX might be a better way to go than a new Murano, and depreciation will hav hit the car so it would be a good leverage point for you. The only other The two suv's that you have not mentioned are the Hyundai and the Mazda. The Hyundai Santa fe, is a less expensive verion of the RX, if fake wood pieces don't bother you, you might find the similariteis eerily similar This is the only detraction I could find, leather is nice, fit and finish are top notch, and price is an added bounus. The dollar value suggests the Hyundai, and its reliability is now close to that of top manufacturers. The Mazda cx-7 might surprise you with its energetic driving and you could load it up and still have change in your pocket. If you want something slightly larger, the CX-9 is another alternative. I think I have covered most of the bases, I have not addressed purhcasing or leasing, obviously because I need to know more information before I make a reccomendation.

    you can contact me at peregrinator@cox.net if you have any more questions.
  • krisvkrisv Member Posts: 25
    sam112233 - I'm in the Atlanta area and trying to get quotes from other areas to compare - Alabama, Tennessee, SC. Did you get quotes from Atlanta? Did you deal with the internet manager in Bham or go to the dealership? Do you mind providing your salesperson's name? Thanks!
  • krisvkrisv Member Posts: 25
    Has anyone recently purchased a vehicle with these options? I'm negotiating now and it looks like it will be a special order since we don't want the ML stereo system. Curious on what others are paying for similar vehicles and where you're located. Finding there are not a lot of AWD vehicles in the Southeast. Thanks.

    08 RX350 AWD
    Premium Plus
    Nav System
    Factory DVD system
    Tow Package
    Factory Trailer Hitch
    18" Liquid Graphite Wheels
  • lam0279lam0279 Member Posts: 9
    Hi guys,
    I'm looking for the 08 RX-350 with luxury plus package. What is the best deal for this. How much did you pay for this RX with luxury plus package?
  • crackberrycrackberry Member Posts: 9
    Hi,

    We are planning to shop for a '08 RX 350 AWD (Premium Package plus, wheel lock, all weather mats) in Northern VA.

    What price should we aim for paying for the RX around northern VA (Vienna/Fairfax) area?
    In this forums some people have posted that they were able to buy the RX '08 less than the invoice. Is it reasonable to ask for $1500 or $2000 less than the invoice?

    Do share if you know of a good dealership where I can get a good deal.

    Thanks,
    CB
  • heyub2heyub2 Member Posts: 7
    Prestige Lexus - Northern NJ delivered a competitive price for a 2008 RX 350 (premium package, with navigation). Initial sales experience was positive (albeit, time consuming), and the "pick-up" experience was okay. Remain disciplined, and recognize that the ancillary offers are just that. The 'extras' - insurance offers, service contracts (LoJack, Window Etchinging, etc...) can be purchased elsewhere for a "fraction of the cost."
  • kostyankostyan Member Posts: 6
    Bought my brand new 2006 Acura for 4K under invoice on last shopping day of 2006, and want to see if could match that with 2007 Lexus RX350, willing to wait til' end of December. Has anyone had any experience with buying a brand new Lexus for under invoice? How much under invoice is the best realistic scenario for something thats brand new or a demo? Thanks!
  • lam0279lam0279 Member Posts: 9
    Go here http://clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281654
    I see people get 6k-7k off MSRP but recently i requested quotes from lexus dealers and got nowhere near that. Let me know what deal you got.
  • kostyankostyan Member Posts: 6
    it makes no sense to go by MSRP, which is always thousands more than the true dealer cost. I always go by invoice. Is it possible to get a loaded 07 for 3-4 grand under invoice?
  • britcrlvrbritcrlvr Member Posts: 83
    If I could make a suggestion, you would be able to lower the price of the car somewhat if you chose to get the standard wheels. Larger wheels do nothing except look good.

    I think that a good ballpark price to offer for an 07-08 year model would be 38500, if you email me at peregrinator@cox.net, I might be able to locate something for you. However, I will need 72 hours to get back to you. If this is acceptable I look forward to
  • eastwingeastwing Member Posts: 78
    I am looking for:

    RX 350 08 AWD
    Premium Plus
    Navigation
    DVD (NOT a must-have)

    Do you know the best price I can get in mid-west? I am in Twin Cities area (MN) but am willing to travel up to 400 miles (Chicago area) to get a good deal. I can buy anytime now but have to get it before Christmas.

    Any information/help is appreciated.
  • lam0279lam0279 Member Posts: 9
    I'm looking for the 08 RX-350 with the premium plus package. What's the best deal I can get? I best offer I got is about 36K plus ttl....which come around 39,3K.
  • dlexusdlexus Member Posts: 1
    I also shopped for the same configuration without DVD in and around Twin Cities. I got the best price around invoice price from couple of Chicago dealers. If it is the price you are looking for, please send me an email at gift_certs@hotmail.com for further details.
  • olegoleg Member Posts: 12
    dealers name please

    thank you
  • eastwingeastwing Member Posts: 78
    Thanks dlexus. Invoice is a good price for me (but of course the lower the better :) I will send you an email to ask for detials. BTW have you made the purchase yet?
  • niagamniagam Member Posts: 1
    Here's a deal I got at Lexus of Santa Monica.

    2008 RX 350 FWD
    Premiuim plus package, 18 inch wheels, heated seats with rain sensing wipers, wheel locks, cargo mat, tow prep package.

    MSRP - $41,496
    Price Paid - $36,612
    Doc prep fee - $55
    Sales Tax (CA 8.25%) - $3021
    DMV electronic filing fee - $28
    License fee - $303
    CA tire fee - $9


    TOTAL OUT THE DOOR - $40,028

    Just thought I'd share.
  • giantsfan2giantsfan2 Member Posts: 6
    I JUST BROUGHT ONE YESTERDAY , NO HASSEL WHAT SO EVER. 2008 RX 350, (4) WHEEL DRIVE, BREAKWATER BLUE MET FROM LEXUS OF MARIN (SALE PERSON - OSCAR). MSRP 38,800.00, ALREADY ADD-ONS ARE DVD SYSTEM 1,740.00, LIQUID GRAPHITE FINISH 18"7 SPOKE WHEELS 605.00, HEATED SEATS RAIN SENSING WIPERS AND HEADLAMP WASHERS 665.00 , TOWING PACKAGE 160.00 , LUXURY VALUE EDITION = NAVIGATION SYSTEM W/BLUETOOTH/VOICE ACTIVATION REAR BACK-UP CAMERA, MARK LEVINSON AUDIO SYSTEM WITH DVD/CD CHANGER, TILT TELESCOPING STEERING WHEEL, LEATHER TRIM INTERIOR, ROOF RACK, MOONROOF, ILLUMINATED ENTRY SYSTEM ( TOTAL MSRP VALUE AT 7.090.00) THIS PACKAGE FOR 6,190.00 , CARGO MAT FOR 92.00 , WHEEL LOCKS FOR 69,00 FOR A SUB-TOTAL 48,321.00 PLUS DELIVERY HANDLING FEE 715.00 TOTAL 49,036.00 , I PAID 43,000 PLUS TAX & LICENSE, TOTAL LITTLE OVER 47,000. OUT THE DOOR. ALSO I GOT A FREE ADD-ON 1,000.00 DOLLAR VALUE, THE 3M CLEAR ARMOR, ITS A DETERRENT AGAINST STONE CHIPS, BUGS, AND ROAD DEBRIS. WITH 3 YEAR WARRANTY AGAINST YELLOWING, PEELING , FADING AND CRACKING. SO THIS I HOPE I GOT A GOOD PRICE BECAUSE I DID'NT SHOP AROUND AT ALL, THIS WAS THE FIRST STOP WE MADE AND BOOM.SO GOOD LUCK , JUST REMEMBER, THERE IS ALWAYS MORE ROOM TO NEGOTIATE? GIANTSFAN
  • mbawhizguymbawhizguy Member Posts: 6
    Folks, I need suggestions. Till now my experience has been hell with Pohanka Acura in Chantilly. They wont budge at all. I am lookin for the 2008 RX FWD with nav, PP & rear entertainment and offered 43.5k on the road and they wont accept. Any thoughts?
  • brgerfliprbrgerflipr Member Posts: 3
    i also went to pohanka lexus of chantilly, they weren't too flexible w/ me either. sales manager was also very snooty and arrogant.

    ended up going to lexus of rockville, md. much more customer friendly and paid 2000 less than pohanka's "final price".

    good luck.
  • andy1993andy1993 Member Posts: 26
    keisv-- I am in alabama. need to buy rx350 with premium plus with nav system with rain sensing wipers, etc. these are main add on i need. kindly let me know if you have already bought rx in atlanta area or elsewhere. what have being offered or paid for. my mrsp is around 44,500 (thats what it comes to with what I want)

    andy1993
  • 71mini71mini Member Posts: 4
    After doing some home works and visted 3 dealerships, I finally bought mine RX350 from Longo Lexus. Sales person name is George Kantanto. Very nice guy, honest and straight forward.

    Specs:

    FWD
    Nav
    Premium Plus

    MSRP: $44,356

    OFT: $41,500

    I think the NAV is a great feature along with the bluetooth and backup camera. Think about the time, fuel and repair cost of the bumper, if (only if) you backed into something you could, would, should, but didn't see. :o)
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