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:shades:
Thanks again, tidester, for intervening!!
I drove to a dealership in Marietta, GA, (where I bought an Element EX), and left my car with them. The service rep, before the day was over, called and said it might just be a damaged condenser (and showed me the damage). Furthermore, he said that with luck maybe all I needed was a new condenser and freon, but he wouldn't know for sure until they fixed that.
The next day he called with the news that it was more than the condenser, but not the whole AC system--the compressor was blown, and the car would need a new compressor, clutch, coil. (This dealer also was not going to extend a good-will warranty). At this point I had the option to pay for the compressor and freon and take my car somewhere else to complete the work. I left it, of course, because I was tired of the whole ordeal and by this time just wanted it done.
Here are the charges:
134 Freon--$35.80
Condenser--$390.69
Clutch SE--$229.80
Coil Set--$96.36
Compressor--$547.28
Belt.ACG--$54.48
Labor--$650
TOTAL= $2004.41
What have I learned?
1.) I was told that dealers are allotted so many dollars per month for good-will warranties; therefore, although the dealers act as if you are being turned down by AH, it indeed begins there at the dealership. That's why, if you are NOT loyal to their service department (where most of their money is made), they shrug you off. And it has nothing to do with purchasing a car, only service.
2.) The purpose of the SB describing the problem and fix with the A, B, or C kit makes it easier for many dealer's just to say (without really looking at your particular situation), "you need the C kit"--which is the whole system-- again without really accessing your problem--and that is the $3,000+ job. Don't accept an overall assessment; make the dealer break it down by components.
3.) Knowing what I know now, I would take my car to an independent auto repair shop that fixes A/Cs, never dealing with Honda and the resulting grief and despair I incurred. I added my name to the class action suit, but I don't expect anything to become of that--certainly not any compensatory dollars.
4.) Lastly, I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face. I bought a new Element EX and will sell the CR-V. I believe that Toyota will have to improve their warranties considering their bad press (like Audi first, then BMW and Porche.) and Honda will have to follow suit...eventually.
OK, overall, I think Honda's business practices suck. I think car dealerships in general suck. I hope everyone else dealing with this problem has better outcomes than mine.
You did a very thorough evacuation right? If your compressor grenaded, then usually comp, condenser and drier are affected. Did you confirm no shrapnel went up the lines to the evaporator?
When the AC began clunking on Monday I knew what to expect. This time instead of taking the vehicle to my local mechanic, I went to the dealership. They diagnosed (for only $60 instead of the normal $125) that the car had a bad case of the Black Death, and quoted just over $4K to repair the entire system. They asked American Honda for assistance but because the car is so old, Honda America understandably would not give me any assistance. However the local shop got the price down to $3147. (The parts alone came to $2065). The local shop, according to their invoice had replaced the parts (compressor, clutch, condenser, and freon each time and belts once); the dealership did the same plus replaced numerous pipes and hoses. The dealership mechanic told me that there shards probably from the first time the condenser went out; he said they get caught in the pipes and hoses then recycle through to damage the replacement parts. So each time after the first 'fix' that the AC had problems, and it appears that the shards had broken loose from the old pipes and hoses and recontaminated the system. Though the small shop told me about the black death, they did not replace all the hoses and pipes, or at least did not put it on the invoice, and charged me about half what the dealership charged. They also used after market parts, which I assume are probably fine normally if the shards were not in the closed system.
So, now the car's been fixed at the dealership. I have piece of mind that the problem is fixed and I will drive the Texas summers comfortably for the next 171K miles. What I have learned from this is that there are some things one MUST go to the dealership for.
After reading a lot of your postings that state that the older, higher mileage CRVs failures are normal, I was just wondering what you consider premature. Should 36 K miles be the ultimate point where Honda says no more repairs are covered ?
This is not a rip towards you, I really would like to hear your opinion on what a buyer should expect from Honda. I agree that 8-10 year old cars with 100k are no longer elgible for free replacement. ( sure that won't be popular to some)
In my case, the failure happened at just under 4 years and just over 48 K. Was mine premature ? Do you think Honda should cover a portion ? If so how much ?
We buy Hondas for their "dependable" reputation, are we suckers to expect more than 36K of reliability. My wife has 4 yr/50K standard warranty on her 5 series, if she keeps it, I will be buying a warranty. With a Honda, I was foolish enough to pass on the extended warranty based on Honda's image. Funny how it works, thought I would be in the BMW sevice department more than Hondas.
Are we allowed to post links here? I was reading about Black Death from a site called Polar Bear. Seems some models were replaced and the old ones (in Nissan and Isuzu) used two identical types, but the newer ones have an aluminum part instead of steel. The old steel ones were too hardy and lasted too long. I am guessing this decision to use aluminum was not for saving weight, it is more about ensuring the part fails and lands u back at the dealer for repairs. It should be criminal though to use a part they KNOW will take out the rest of the system when that one part fails.
If i find replacement units that have a better history of longevity, I will post them. Hopefully I get the straight poop tho when I ask.
March 31, 2010, 9:22 PM EDT
More From Businessweek
* Honda Must Defend Suit Over Air Conditioner Defects (Update1)
By David Voreacos
April 1 (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co.’s U.S. unit must defend a lawsuit claiming it knowingly sold cars with defective air conditioners and refused to pay for repair costs, a judge ruled.
U.S. District Judge Katharine Hayden said yesterday in Newark, New Jersey, that motorist Jon Alin may proceed with claims that American Honda Motor Co. engaged in fraud and breached warranties over Hondas and Acuras sold or leased between 2000 and 2009.
Hayden granted Honda’s request to dismiss two of the eight counts in the complaint, filed under the Class Action Fairness Act. Alin claims that after he leased a 2006 Odyssey, the air conditioner stopped working and a Honda technician told him he was “experiencing a common problem,” according to the opinion.
“A fair reading of the complaint establishes that Alin has alleged that Honda affirmatively acted in concealing a flaw in its vehicles,” Hayden ruled in a 28-page opinion. Alin alleges “Honda implemented its warranty policy with the intent that it would not honor it when damages stemming from the defective A/C systems arose,” according to the ruling.
Hayden said Alin adequately stated claims that Honda breached an express warranty and a duty of good faith and fair dealing, and that it violated the New Jersey Consumer Fraud Act and committed common law fraud. She dismissed claims of breach of implied warranty and unjust enrichment.
With the ruling, the case will proceed to pre-trial gathering of evidence, or discovery.
Chris Martin, a spokesman for Tokyo-based Honda, declined to comment on the litigation.
The case is Jon Alin v. American Honda Motor Co., 08-cv- 4825, U.S. District Court, District of New Jersey (Newark).
Honda fell 0.5 percent to 3,285 yen as of 10:17 a.m. in Tokyo.
--Editors: Mary Romano, Ian Rowley, Chana Schoenberger
To contact the reporters on this story: David Voreacos in Newark, New Jersey at dvoreacos@bloomberg.net.
To contact the editor responsible for this story: David E. Rovella at drovella@bloomberg.net.
Hey, I am an NYC transplant in Buffalo, Amherst to be prescise. Have been living here since 2004. Visit family in and around NYC on the regular basis. CR-V is great for those 5.5 hour drives!!!
We too drive to DC once a year!!!
Summers are short indeed in Buffalo, which I like. But, A/C is also on when the defogger is on. Which is pretty much anytime from October through April. If I don't need the defogger, I am usually on the bike :-)
I have had good luck getting work done at Don Davis on the boulevard. they usually don't charge full labor charge for work that takes them less than the book rate, and I get nice 25% discount on parts from the parts counter. We bought 2 CR-V's from them since 2005.
I used to buy from Ray Laks, but they closed their internet parts sales department (www.hondaacuraworld.com). Tim has resurfaced at Honda of Peoria, still working out of West Seneca. I may give him a call next time.
Good to see another Buffalonian on here.
I talked to the dealer recently and they pretty much said that there is nothing they can do unless it fails again as they could give me a 'discount'. Does any one know of contact information of someone at North American Honda who might be able to reimburse me for some of my repeated repair costs? Thanks.
I'm not sure that the problem being discussed in this forum is frequent (or exists at all) on the Gen 3 (2007 and later). I think they redesigned the A/C system for Gen 3. Yours is most likely just a simple parts failure. Still, I'm sorry to hear of the problem. Keep us informed!
Also, you DO use your A/C compressor - whenever you turn on the defrosters. So it has been in use.
Is that useful?
Took it to the Honda of Illinois dealer in Springfield, IL today and was told the AC compressor blew up and it would cost $3194 to repair it. He said he had to call a rep and would be giving me a call later today to see if they can do anything with it.
These cars are dangerous and defective!
I have no idea why the AC blowing up would make the car respond like the tire was blowing out and the dealer didn't comment on it when I told him what happened. I had one other problem with this car once I steered the car so that the passenger side wheels where off the road in gravel to go around a highway construction site and when the wheels entered the gravel the transmission popped itself into nuteral.
I have the two wheel drive version of the CRV.
Still waiting for a call from my dealer.
I think if you do this and all of a sudden in a few days u realize it is getting way louder than usual, then pull the fuse to the clutch. In this way it will help prevent extra debris from clogging the system and u might get away with just new compressor, condenser and drier. Blow the lines out. Evap might be ok. Is hard to know of course.
But the sooner you quit using compressor if you realize it is getting noisy, the less it will cost you for sure.
Post the brand and part number of comp when you get it replaced - please see post #1743 and #1740.
The dealer said they would be giving me a call today it's only been 4 hours since I took it in still no word.
Of the 66,000 miles on it the AC was probably only used a fraction of that as in Illinois summer isn't year round.
Even floor/def combo I think will cause it to come on, then u can turn it off by button.
Odd that it made no unusual noise prior to failure. This is yet again something that not all posters are reporting. Too bad we couldn't get a chart so that all the usual helpful or clues info could be filled in on a case by case basis.
They are going to call me in 48 hours.
I was out of warranty, but had problems on my record with the A/C unit in first 3 months. I called American Honda and while they will claim out of warranty and they stated they extended a good offer (50% they would cover on the repair) I stayed on them an plead my case. There are 1700 + complaints here. I suspect a class action is pending.I argued with my AH person that while they could try to argue their case, I really felt they needed t be better at customer service. We have 8 Honda's between family members and that this CRV does not stand up against other products. She argued Honda's case on warranty. I stated did she think it was fair that as an owner not to expected repair parts in the logistic stystem so I could get it repaired within 24 hours (it took a week). I argued I had to leave the car 2000 miles from my house, parts were in short supply no doubt due to this problem, and I was facing expenses to retrieve the car, when I shouldhave been able to stay he evening and get back on the road with the car the next day for another 2-1/2 day trip.
AH did finally accept to pay 100% of the repair. I am awaiting my car via car carrier on Wednesday August 25th. The car broke down on the 6th of August. It will cost $800 to ship. But flying there which is not easy as it's 200 miles from Portland OR and driving with hotel and gas would have cost about the same or more.Of course if parts were available on something with known defects, I would not have this transport expense.
30 to 40 years ago we avoided foreign cars because if you broke down in parts of the states you were at great risk getting parts. Go figure it would be the same today.
I recommend telling friends not to buy Honda until the automaker steps up and covers these known defects and takes action to assure parts are readily available in the system. You can tell something about a company by the way they treat their customers and actions when things are not going well.
You'll want to check this Edmunds topic about Odysseys.
Odyssey Transmission Failures
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
They finally got back to me with a 60/40 split I pay the 60% which comes to $1900 and I really cant see doing it just to have the same thing need repaired 30,000 miles later. When they only give 1 year 12,000 on the repair. This is a good ole screwing if you ask me! I'm going to trade mine in on a Ford Escape and never look back.
The American Honda rep I talked to said the internet just makes the problem seem bigger than it is and that out of millions of these cars on the road only a small few have issues.
I wish I knew how many people have had the AC problems!
Check out this link. Some Fords have the same Black Death symptoms as the Honda compressors.
http://www.polarbearinc.com/Trouble14_FORD_BLACK_DEATH.html
TYPICAL FORD FS 10 COMPRESSOR
I think what is very important is for us to collectively determine which replacement compressor has the potential for a normal lifespan. That's why I urge everyone to post the specifics of either completed or even quoted repairs. Once we get a few names we can Google to find out which compressors don't break piston rings inside.
The problem is with the Gen 2 (2002-2006 models). I haven't seen a lot of traffic on the Gen 3. I think they must have redesigned the compressor.
Sounds to me like Honda is going retro as in Detroit management of yesteryear. It's bad enough that it now has a Consumers Report full black dot. But worse, Honda doesn't appear to have made any effort to improve the overpriced replacement parts since a lot of people seem to be having repeat incidents. As I read these and the Ody issues, I think it is only a matter of time before they join Toyota in losing their premium market image. Detroit opened the door to Japan and now Japan may be opening the door to Korea. No one learns anything from history.
Caution, never take this car out of State or Town, you just know it will have problems. I think Honda has reached a point that they wish to become the next Toyota. As someone put it earlier. It looks like the Korean's are making Japan the next Detroit. If you cannot produce quality or step up to the problem when you know it exists, you don't deserve the market share. They clearly know this is a problem. They typically are picking up 50% of the cost. They should be finding a replacement product and when these breakdown cover the whole cost.
I am sure the Class Action suit will be finding it's way throg the courts on this. :lemon: Like you owned several Honda's this will be the last. Dealers are great, but AH is putting them in a bind.
Thanks
Its a 2002 CR-V with 95,000 miles.
Our repairman used to work for a dealer - now runs his own business. He said when he worked for a dealer, he was repairing this every week. And this repair happened so frequently, that Honda would cover all costs.
I called Honda and they said Honda would cover nothing.
Called local dealer (that our serviceman used to work for) and they said they had just done a repair for someone else with 44,000 miles and that it was $3,600. But that since the 2002 model, Honda had improved the design of the components.
Still..I'm stuck with a possible $3,600 repair bill. Seem to me that Honda now realizes its a bad design on the older vehicles but they no longer help the owners out. I contacted the Center for Auto Safety and may follow their instructions on how to file a complaint with Honda. Anyone want to join with me to do this?
Mine is a 2003 CR-V with 105,000 when it blew in July.
We have a 2004 CR-V and about a year ago the a/c went out. My daughter drives it and has been ok with no a/c. Wife took it to Cary Paul Honda in Snellville,Ga for reg. service to be done and if they could check why the a/c didn't work. For 188.00 they could check it so she didn't have do it. Took it to another shop and was only 51.00 to find out the compressor was bad and they can do it for 1500.00. I was wondering if we should try and fight with Honda to fix it or not.
Those b@#$%@$#@ds need to keep paying for what they refuse to recall and fix. They refuse to do recall because "no one has died"
Poor attitude if they want to retain customer satisfaction,'
EVERYONE needs to know this, keep their phones ringing, and the reimbursement checks coming. Probably the best you could expect is 50% reimbursement.