The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol



  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    4ethanol, your thinking appears to be magical, or maybe you are just rationalizing about ethanol maybe due to it making you or your family $? (I'd probably like ethanol-as-fuel lots better if I made some $ from it.)

    Why care if the mpg loss with E10 is 10% or 11% or 9% or 5% or 3% or 2.71828%? It's a scam any way you slice it.

    maybe our new president will recognize the scam and cancel the subsidies/etc?
  • newdavidqnewdavidq Member Posts: 146
    In the last paragraph of this post, pf flyer offered a simple but powerful example of the folly we are engaged in with corn based ethanol. It is so simple a concept that to deny the conclusion is delusional.
    I keep a log in my 4runner and can pinpoint the change in gasoline formulations because I drive pretty conservatively and do the same kind of driving consistently.
    If the price of ethanol were such that the cost were less (without the subsidy, tariff, questionable air pollution issues, farmland, food prices, fertilizer use, engine damage to small/marine engines, and transportation issues) than gasoline, it might be a good thing.
    P.S. Does anyone know if there is an ethanol/global warming forum?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372
    A buddy of mine runs a tire store/repair shop and I was hanging out there the other day when a customer came in and was talking about the mileage performance of their Prius. They are one of those Prius owners who are semi-fanatical about maximizing their mileage. Not a full-blown hypermiler, but still VERY attuned to and aware of their mileage. They were getting 52mpg out of their Prius until "the labels saying contains ethanol appeared on the pumps" and their mileage immediately dropped to 42 mpg.

    Gee... that sounds like about a 20% drop. I bet they aren't doing something right or there's something wrong with their car because that ethanol stuff can increase mileage when used properly. :P
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372
    First Wall Street, Then Automakers, Now U.S. Ethanol Industry Wants a Bailout

    "Enough already!"

    That ought to be Washington's response to the Renewable Fuels Association's request this month for $1 billion in financial aid to struggling ethanol producers so they can finance current operations.

    But wait, there's more. The RFA -- the ethanol industry's lobby -- has also suggested to the incoming administration that it create a $50-billion federal loan guarantee program to finance investment in the ethanol producers' expansion.

    And furthermore, the RFA has told Obama & Co. that any automaker that receives federal aid should be required to only produce vehicles that can run on any gas-ethanol blend up to 85 percent ethanol, beginning with the 2010 model season.

    Be sure to read the rest of the story at the Green Car Advisor
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Please Uncle Sam give me a bailout. I promise not to piss it all away this time.

    The ethanol industry has been a black mark on the country since it was first pushed 30 years ago. How many times do we have to subsidize this losing corn ethanol scam? The only people that benefited are Big AG like ADM. They con our ignorant Congress into the scheme. It lowers our gas mileage and then they got the nerve to ask the tax payers to bail them out of a business that was never intended to make money.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372
    The discussion of ethanol is getting to be a lot like the discussion of the effectiveness of HHO kits. Facts no longer seem to matter. We're supposed to go along just because someone thinks it's a good idea :sick:
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think so much more media attention to our trade deficit with countries that are not all that friendly causes a lot of the problem. Everyone is looking for the magic bullet to save US from our supposed gasoline addiction. We are spoiled in this country by cheap fuel. I would not expect any alternative to offer anything as cheap as fossil fuel is right today. Just not likely. As much as I would like a car I could plug in and drive for a penny a mile. That is not going to happen either.
  • motorcity6motorcity6 Member Posts: 427
    Personally it has been great in Fla, hi 70s & low 80s..I pray for more Global Warming...I thought ethanol would solve all problems, but like most left-hand ideas it created more than it solved..If you could look at our Congress folks portfolios of stocks you would understand where they put their money for they possess the "Insider Trading" status.. Called Blind Trusts, it's blind to the voters.

    Since I fed 3 cars, ethanol sucks!!!! The 09 Mustang Bullitt has not seen any ethanol, the 06 S/C Pontiac gets cheap premium gas and high-priced ethanol-laced petrol, and non-ethanol premium..Mileage goes from 18.5 on the cheap premium to 23.5 on the old fashioned gas..The third car is a 4banger XLE Camry which lives on a diet of junk gas and took a dive in mpgs w/ethanol of about 15%..

    At $4.00/gal, the ethanol guys were in hog-heaven, now they are in the slop, and screaming for our left-hand govt for a bailout..

    The chemistry and the benefits of ethanol somehow doesn't enhance my automotive experiences for the I fail to see any pluses on ethanol's behalf..I guess I am too old fashioned to gobble up the hype connected to what's driving this country back to Dark Ages..

    I am long on's at the bottom..Jump aboard and bid up the barrel price so the ethanol guys will stop complaining so Congress will not have to give them more of our taxes..

    Enviromentalists+Lawyers have created this downsizing of our economy based on the assumption of "Saving the Planet"..Who is going to save you folks????

    I am too old to worry about the outcome----remember "Elections have Consequecences". You will find out shortly what it's like to have professional politicians running your life..the ones who have been on the public payroll their entire working life except for the paper route in their early days or maybe a little "Community Organizing " using your tax $$$$$s....

    I got my fill of ethanol in 2000 in Michigan at a small town gas station, a very nice operation with gas prices 5 cents lower than the big city guys. However after filling up 10-15 times and receiving less gas mileage, while I really didn't care, but the car didn't have it's robust performance so I read the little stickers on the pump---low and behold it's ethanol-10%..

    I apologized to the car for this mistreatment...Now it is Mandated---sure makes me feel better??????? Isn't it fun to pay more for much less????? Cars get smaller however we pay more-much more???? Like the new light bulbs, full of mercury, now is that good or bad???? Ask a legal eagle for they used to collect big fees tracing down mercury...Smoking is bad, who cares, it creates taxes--okay, gives the legal eagles more basis for lawsuits based deceptive advertising. I guess smokers can't read..
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    This is just what Ahnold needs. Makes the Hummer look like a toy. Luxury with 6 NBA players able to sit in comfort. What more could you ask in an Urban Cruiser?

    The KNIGHT XV is 240 in length, 98 in width with a ground clearance of 14 and stands at 100. Its wheelbase is 141 and has an armoured curb weight of 10,000 pounds. The vehicle holds 40 gallons of fuel and sits on four, LT40X13.50R20 Mickey Thompson Baja Radial ATZ tires with ballistic run flats.

    Additionally, the KNIGHT XV contains an E-85 Ethanol conversion system (Flex Fuel) with California emission certification, thereby making it certified in all 50 States.


    What more could a tree hugging ethanol proponent ask for??
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H EdmundsAdministrator Posts: 11,126
    Hm... you don't mention the MPG estimates on this one. I suspect you could get upwards of 7 MPG with a strong tailwind.


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  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think 7 MPG with E85 would be optimistic. I found it interesting that there are start-ups using the E85 scam to get by the goofy regulations imposed by the EPA and CARB. If it runs on E85 makes no difference how much of it. That is how GM & Ford will get by the new CAFE regulations. A full sized PU getting 12 MPG on E85 gets an equivalent 33 MPG rating from CAFE. I don't think you will see many Conquest vehicles on the road at $310,000 each. CARB gives this behemoth the nod with its gas guzzling V10 engine. I cannot buy a new small PU with a 4 cylinder diesel engine anywhere in the USA.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Pacific Ethanol to temporarily suspend production

    updated 12:57 p.m. PT, Fri., Jan. 9, 2009

    SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Pacific Ethanol Inc. on Friday said it plans to temporarily halt production at its 40 million gallon per year ethanol facility located in Madera, Calif., starting Jan. 12, due to extended unfavorable market conditions for ethanol.

    Demand for ethanol has waned amid record-low crude oil prices and weak oil demand.

    Pacific Ethanol produces about 114,000 gallons of ethanol per day and employs about 40 full time employees at the Madera plant. The company said it has temporarily laid off Madera employees and plans to reopen the plant "as soon as market conditions allow" and will bring employees back.

    More bad news for ethanol. Too bad people do not look past their noses. Ethanol history would have told US Corn Ethanol is not going to fly. Now we have more people on unemployment as a result of Government mandates and intervention into business. Will it ever end. Or is it going to continue to get worse?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,250
    Here's how the disaster that is ethanol is doing right now:
    Ethanol's problems
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    All people had to do is look at the 90+ ethanol stills that were shut down in the 1980s to see this was a poor product. If it cannot make it without subsidies it is not a viable source of energy.

    “The ethanol industry is on its back despite the billions of dollars they have gotten in taxpayer assistance, and a guaranteed market,” said Amy Myers Jaffe, an energy analyst at Rice University.

    The government’s Energy Information Administration recently projected that the industry would fall short of the targets for expanded use of ethanol and other biofuels that Congress set in a 2007 energy law. “It’s possible we may have to look at the targets again,” said Senator Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico, the chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee.

    VeraSun Energy, one of the nation’s largest ethanol producers, has suspended production at 12 of its 16 plants and is planning to sell production facilities. In recent days Renew Energy, Cascade Grain Products and Northeast Biofuels have filed for bankruptcy protection. Pacific Ethanol said it would suspend operations at its Madera, Calif. plant.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,250
    On top of that, the excuse used to justity corn-based ethanol, that it's a 'bridge' to other sources of bioethanol, is proving to be a sham:

    "In the meantime, plans are lagging for a new generation of factories that were supposed to produce ethanol from substances like wood chips and crop waste, overcoming the drawbacks of corn ethanol. That nascent branch of the industry concedes it has virtually no chance of meeting Congressional production mandates that kick in next year."
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think the Congress and President were sipping too much of that Corn Hooch when they mandated ethanol in the 2005 Energy bill. That being a Republican Congress should have known better. Well they lost their jobs by not sticking to core conservative ideals. Now we got an even bigger mess to deal with.
  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJMember Posts: 10,384
    Ethanol Industry’s 15% Solution Raises Concerns.

    Like we don't have enough annoyance with E10.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372
    Yea, I love it. The "magic proportion" will somehow get BETTER mileage out of a fuel that has a lower energy density. :sick:
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Seems like our Government want to destroy it's self, they just keep digging the hole deeper.
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    I am a Mecahanical Engineer, having specialized in vehicle performance, whether it be economy, crash-worthiness, roll-over, stability, etc. for over 28 years.
    PLEASE believe me when I show the comparison information below:
    1. Consider performance of gasoline as a standard of 1.00 for all the following (100% if you like)
    2. Ethanol has a heating value between 0.65 and 0.75 that of "gasoline" (for those who care heating value measures useable ENERGY content), but that also translates into an efficiency of 65% to 75% that of gasoline. Alcohol won't GO as far given the same volume, PERIOD. It's a fact of chemistry, and is not subject to legislation or wishes.
    3. A ROUGH idea of the fuel mileage of e85 (containing 85% ethanol and (maybe) 15% gasoline) can be roughly calculated according to:
    E85 mileage = 0.15 x 100% + 0.85 x 75% = 0.745, or a mileage value 74.5% that of gasoline (that is, 25.5% reduction in distance covered per gallon of E85.
    4. Bear in mind that the above is close to a "high" estimate, since alcohol absorbs water, which cools the combustion flame resulting in lower values.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I think part of the supposed appeal of ethanol is that we can source it domestically. Same with natural gas, which also has less energy per unit of volume than gasoline (burns cleaner though).

    When one gets down to it, that IS a factor, plus the fact that most engines can burn a certain mixture of ethanol without modification.

    Burning pure ethanol is another story though, and we need a better source first, since corn ethanol takes about as much energy to produce as it produces itself.
  • pafromflpafromfl Member Posts: 47
    "Alcohol won't GO as far given the same volume, PERIOD. It's a fact of chemistry, and is not subject to legislation or wishes."
    Engine optimization also is involved. I've tested four cars on interstate highways and discovered that E10 reduces gas mileage by about 10%. It appears that you can drive the same distance whether the ethanol is in the tank or dumped on the ground (although maybe the quality of the 90% gasoline portion is the problem).
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    You are right that we would do better dumping the ethanol on the ground or better yet drinking it. I think that is what happened when they passed the mandates on that crap. they were all drinking alcohol with the lobbyist from ADM. They are the only ones making money.

    When all the corn stills go broke and close it will be more people in the Midwest out of work. It happened in the last big recession in the late 1970s and early 80s. They shut down over 90 Corn ethanol plants. How many will go down this time around?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372
    Since the intro of ethanol, mileage on my vehicles, and anyone else I know who carefully monitors the mileage of their vehicles, is down a solid 8-10%.

    Couple that with all the news stories I've seen recently about a world food crisis, and it would appear to be utter insanity to want to add MORE ethanol to fuel, but we have a bunch of people that want to do exactly that.

    To quote a closing line for one of my favorite movies of all time, The Bridge on the River Kwai...

    Madness... madness!
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Couple that with all the news stories I've seen recently about a world food crisis, and it would appear to be utter insanity to want to add MORE ethanol to fuel, but we have a bunch of people that want to do exactly that.

    Well, let's say it's madness to convert food into ethanol. If we had a non-food source it would be a better idea.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372

    Well, let's say it's madness to convert food into ethanol. If we had a non-food source it would be a better idea.

    Not a better idea if the idea is to cut down on use of oil. Exactly how much oil/gas am I saving when a 10% blend of ethanol reduces my mileage by 10%, because that's how much my mileage dropped instantly with the introduction of 10% ethanol into my area and it has stayed there. Let's see, the math could be tricky. Just for an example with round numbers, assume I had a 10 gallon tank and was getting 30 miles to the gallon. So I use 10 gallons of gas to go 300 miles. Now fill up with a 90/10 gas/ethanol mix (and remember that on most of the pumps around here it says UP TO 10% ethanol) and my mileage drops to 27 mpg. So to travel the same 300 miles I have to use 11.11111... gallons of gas/ethanol blend. Since 90% of that blend is gas, I'm using the same 10 gallons of gasoline that I was before.

    I save no money as the price at the pump didn't drop a cent with the introduction of ethanol. I'm not cutting back on my use of gasoline so throw the emissions argument out the window. And we've managed to affect the commodities market to boot.

    I think I'll stand by my madness claim.

    I didn't even have to pull out the claim by some that the "right mix" of ethanol and gasoline actually increases mileage. :confuse:
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Well, let's say it's madness to convert food into ethanol. If we had a non-food source it would be a better idea.

    Why are we putting so much effort into a product that instantly takes 10% value right off the top?

    If all the effort that has been put into ethanol had been put into biodiesel, we would be well on our way to oil independence without creating a food crisis. Biodiesel/diesel almost doubles the MPG over E10 and does not require the use of food crops.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    of ethanol blends is that it reduces the amount of oil we need to import and doesn't require any mechanical changes or technology development and improvement to make use of (even though it carries less energy than the oil we WOULD import, we don't need as much as before, or we wouldn't if we weren't a bunch of idiots buying v8 SUVs to carry one person and no cargo, heh). Granted that's the only benefit, but it can be used as a stopgap while we work on, say getting more natural gas engines and conversion kits out there.

    Of course if they DO manage to convert waste, woodchips, or switchgrass to ethanol, and it uses up less energy to create and convert than it generates when burned, then it might be viable to get more E100 engines out there. Key word, "if."

    Biodeisel is a good one be honest it's a better idea for commerical. Trains and semis would be able to run it as-is. We still need to find the right car alternative, and there's still competition (natural gas, ethanol, hybrid, EVs, ethanol-burning hybrids, hey how about an NG hybrid?) mostly because of concerns with producing the stuff.

    Of course, one of the downsides of ethanol is some group of idiots (a group usually concentrated in Washington DC) gets the bright idea of converting food into fuel, so that, while we starve, at least we can haul our boats, right?
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    PF_Flyer pointed out that there is no gas savings since the vehicles are going fewer miles on a gallon, and I agree with him. My concern is the longevity of engines as ethanol % increases. Marine mechanics are working overtime as this garbage ruins fuel tanks and outboard motor carbureters. Want a growth industry - learn to rebuild marine carbureters. Every time I go out, I see boats being towed in for engine failure. Locally, the number 1 pollution problem of our Chesapeake Bay is excess nutrients - nitrogen and phosphorus. Growing corn requires plenty of fertilizer - exactly what we don't need. The loss of production from the Bay is a big loss but the cleanup costs are enormous. Thank you ethanol industry. The only ones to benefit from ethanol fuels are the heavily subsidized ethanol producers. If they have to be subsidized, I think the country would be better off is they were paid to not produce ethanol.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Of course if they DO manage to convert waste, woodchips, or switchgrass to ethanol, and it uses up less energy to create and convert than it generates when burned, then it might be viable to get more E100 engines out there. Key word, "if."

    I'm glad you used the word IF. That is the big issue. No one has built a plant that can produce ethanol from waste, (switchgrass) etc, that does not require more fossil fuel than it replaces. VW builds cars for Brazil that will run on gas or pure ethanol. Of course Brazil is cutting down the rain forest to plant sugar to make ethanol. How great is that? Right now there is over $2 per gallon subsidy on raising corn for ethanol. Not to mention several of the new ethanol stills are heating with COAL. There goes any environmental benefit. Even with the subsidies the price of corn is driving the small operators into bankruptcy. More jobs gone, thanks to our meddling government.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Well, hey, we could always use more sugar. :shades:
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    Engine optimization is certainly going to help improve performance of ethanol fuels. In my last message, I was exceedingly kind to the ethanol folks with economy figures. Actually, it takes 1.50 gallons of pure ethanol to replace 1.0 gallon of gasoline. E85 requires 1.35 gallons, and 10% blend 1.05 gallons to do the equivalent of 1.0 gallon of gasoline. In other words, E85 would have to sell at 74% the price of gasoline to be competitive. My 4th Year Engineering Project in College was researching ethanol as a motor fuel (note: at that time gasoline was about $035 per gallon, and my test fuel was $7.56 per gallon - because of gov't tarrif). It DOES have its good points: ethyl alcohol exhibits a much higher octane rating than gasoline. I was able to run at compression ratios around 16 : 1 without "knocking" as opposed to 9 or 10 : 1 for gasoline, and the 10% blend can reduce knocking in most normal engines. Because of the high pressures available, an engine can produce much more power on ethanol or E85.
    Power and Economy are at odds: the more power produced, the faster fuel is burned, just like Congress throwing money at problems in order to maintain their power.
    I also agree that the politicians must be either drinking some, or smoking something, to not understand the basics, or else someone is blowing smoke up.....
    Local sourcing is GREAT, but in just a few years the population will have grown to the point where there are only about 2 acres of arable land per person. If corn were to be used, an acre of corn can supply about 300 gallons of ethanol, so, we either starve and use 600 gallons of fuel, or we eat.
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    Great idea. Less corn required!
    Oceanic algae has also recently come on stage. :)
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    When things get really bad, we could use 1 acre of land for food, and one to drink! ;)
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    That's exactly what my Mechanical Engineering research showed, but did anyone ever read it or use it (it was done for the Associate Dean, who was my Senior Project Advisor.

    My question to the corn-based proponents is: what fuel do you use to produce the corn, and to make the equipment, etc??

    Don't even get me STARTED on the hydrogen debacle! :cry:
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    Bio-Diesel is a viable contender, but also has some baggage. Diesel engines require compression ratios between 14 : 1 and 25 : 1. The extreme pressures require stronger, and most likely heavier, engines and components, and more weight requires more fuel.

    One possible configuration for vehicles might be to copy the railroads on a smaller scale. The Diesel-electric configuration of most railroad traction motors uses Diesel engines to drive generators which, in turn, apply power to electric drive motors. The beauty of that is that the generator-to-motor energy transmission can approach 60% efficiency (that is, each 100 revolutions of the generator can cause 60 revolutions at each drive motor.

    That's the main reason steam trains are mostly history - just can't compete. :D
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    Yeah, alcohol is corrosive to unprotected steel parts, and also is hazardous to most common, low priced, seals and other elastomer components. Tends to leach out the "plasticizers" leaving the parts brittle.

    It is also hygroscopic (absorbs water and often used to clean up accumulated fuel tank water), but then is quickly burned through the engine with little to no residue, but a tank full including absorbed water will further reduce economy.

    Theoretically, E10 performance should be 95% that of gasoline. Which means that my well designed 30 mpg car should only get 28.5 mpg with E10. This is where I DO run many times on the highway. Sometimes it drops to around 27 mpg, and that REALLY ticks me because I got stuck with expensive watered-down blended fuel !!! :mad:

    It takes 1.50 gallons of ethanol (E100) to equal 1 gallon of gasoline.
    It takes 2.00 gallons of methanol (M100) to do the same.

    Best thing about either is you can extinguish a fire using only water !! :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    When things get really bad, we could use 1 acre of land for food, and one to drink!

    Sadly the price of exporting corn to Mexico is so high that the farmers are digging up the blue agave and planting corn. No blue agave no good tequila. Now if that ain't a serious problem I don't know what is.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    FWIW... here in central Illinois, 10% ethanol blended gas has been around since the mid-80s. It's almost impossible to buy gas in this area without 10% ethanol. Only one station that I was aware of in the Champaign-Urbana area offered non-ethanol blended gasoline, and now that station has switched to 10% ethanol blend too. For most of midwesterners, 10% ethanol blended gas is a way of life, and has been for over 2 decades.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    In the late 1970s they were lacing gas with ethanol in MN. We know how that experiment ended in the early 1980s. 90+ towns devastated by closing the Corn Ethanol stills and laying off 100s of workers.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    10% ethanol blended gas is a way of life,

    10% ethanol is also a way of life in the state of Washington thanks to the dictatorship of our Governor. If I could find pure gasoline, I would drive some distance to get it.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Luckily you have a diesel car to beat the odds on ethanol laced gas.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Yes, it is nice to have a choice in gas or diesel, but I would still like to have a source of pure gas to run the mowers, chainsaw, etc. and yes, put in the car.
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    That is a SERIOUS issue about the tequila !! :shades:
    Blue agave makes GREAT fuel for dating!
  • cvs20cvs20 Member Posts: 14
    You can't make ethanol from wood chips, switch grass, etc. It WILL make methanol (wood alcohol), but it is a lower energy fuel than ethanol.

    It takes 2.00 gallons of methanol to replace 1.00 gallon of pure gasoline.
    It takes ONLY 1.50 gallon of ethanol to do the same thing.

    Besides, if your vehicle breaks down, you can"t drink the methanol! :surprise:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,250
    Not yet for ethanol from cellulose, but that's the great 'hope' that's been used by some to justify the disaster that is corn-based ethanol. And it you think ethanol is corrosive? Methanol's way worse, would require complete refitting.
  • morin2morin2 Member Posts: 399
    I would be willing to pay slightly more for undiluted gas. Here in MD, the gas stations are not required to post the ethanol content on the pumps. Some pumps have stickers indicating that the fuel "may contain up to 10% ethanol". About half the pumps have no label. I've started testing the ethanol content so I can buy from the stations with better gas for my boat and vehicles. Some of the unlabelled pumps have higher ethanol content than the labelled "up to 10%" pumps. The range I've observed has been 6 to 10%. I haven't tested gas at marinas yet - that's next.
  • galongagalonga Member Posts: 50
    Hi everyone

    I´m looking for a flex conversion kit for my car. I´ve seen many models and they all the same.

    There´s this one however that claims it employs brazilian technology.

    I read that Brazil has been running successfully e100 for over 3 decades, so I suppose they have more experience?

    Does anyone know that company? Do you think their sales pitch makes sense?

    Thanks! :)
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    I’m not sure you’re going to get much positive information about ethanol on this thread; ethanol has a lot of negatives and very few positives.

    If you really want to cut down on fuel consumption, buy a diesel. A VW Jetta TDI gets about 45 to 50 MPG. Do your home work, but I don’t think ethanol is the way to go.
  • galongagalonga Member Posts: 50
    Tell me then why do you think ethanol is not the way to go?

    I mean, if a WHOLE COUNTRY has been running it for over 3 decades with no problem as I´ve read, doesn´t that prove it works?
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