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Toyota Avalon Limited vs Lexus ES 350

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Comments

  • amauhryamauhry Member Posts: 55
    Man, this man's in a mission!

    Loved the way you made your point. You're damn good.

    Amaury
    '08 Limited
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    If I wanted power tilt and telescope that badly, I would just spend the extra 25 grand and buy the Lexus! Why be uncomfortable while you are driving down the road.
  • finfin Member Posts: 594
    Toyota... Are you listening......?.... :)
  • lexpaullexpaul Member Posts: 40
    I wonder how someone could preach the virtues of the Avalon Limited to a Lexus forum, it's funny by stuff happens. The Avi and 350 are targeted at two different types of buyers. The Avi is a nice vehicle and I considered buying one myself and I know about all the features trust me, but what sold me on the 350 was its size and looks AND features. I simply don't want a big car. If I considered anything other than the 350 it would probably be a 08 or 09 CTS. The 350 looks better and I like how it drives. Now that is subjective, because someone else may come along and say, "Hey the Avi is the greatest car since the Model T" So, lets appreciate that no matter what, some folks will relish vanilla ice cream while others will relish strawberry and move on. Most of the folks who buy the 350 have already considered the Avi so you're preaching to the converted (converted to 350), Go to a Chrysler 300 forum and try to convert them..... :shades:
  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    I am in mid-30's and never considered Avalon. With 350, Lexus has targeted mid-30's while Avalon still tagets at 50+, my opinion. I don't think people will shop Avalon after driving ES, totally different car.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, this discussion is part of the ES 350 group and the Avalon group. It's not specifically a "Lexus forum." ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    I don't think people will shop Avalon after driving ES, totally different car

    Really? Same engine, same frame, mostly the same suspension...... They drive similar, the size is the biggest difference. IMO if you need the size go for the Avalon, if you like the smaller vehicle go for the ES at a small price premium.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    Camry, Avalon, ES, Highlander, Venza, RX share same engine, transmission(next model year for crossover's), etc. Are they all the same, no, it all depends on need, taste and $$$. ES stands out and is much better than the Camry or Avalon, go figure. Also, if the customer is less than 50 years and choose Avalon over ES for size than they have serious health issues called obesity.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,701
    "Also, if the customer is less than 50 years and choose Avalon over ES for size than they have serious health issues called obesity. "

    Nice gratuitous insult. Not needed. I've looked at both, currently drive an ES300, and the ES350 is not acceptible because of the compromises made to styling. The rear door opening has been squashed to go after the 4-door coupe look. I want to take friends and clients out without apolgizing for the accomodations.
  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    I am sorry if my comments has offended anyone, I did not intend to do that.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    Also, if the customer is less than 50 years and choose Avalon over ES for size than they have serious health issues called obesity.

    Wow... I certainly hope you are the mecca of physical fitness to make that statement. I am just 30 and picked the Avalon for its size because yes I am on the bigger side and 2) when I do take people out I (they) appreciate the extra room. For the driver the front seating area is very similar in the two cars and even though I guess I "have serious health issues" would fit into the ES just fine.

    As for the ES "standing out" I have driven the ES and a fully decked out Camry XLE V6 and can tell you they drive the same. The Lexus has better materials inside and may be a touch quieter, but there isn't all that much difference other than equipment levels and in all fairness the ES is a better looking car (10K better looking.. debatable).

    As for comparing it to the Avalon... IMO they are equal with the Lexus having the advantage of more available equipment and a better dealership experience/service and warranty. All at the expense of interior room and a few thousand on the sticker.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    Actually this is the most differentiated ES ever from the Camry platform, with only 18% of the car's components being derived from the Camry. People who say that the ES is just like a Camry needs to go drive an ES and a Camry, back to back. The engine is the same as are some of the suspension components and the basic design of the frame. EVERYTHING else is unique to the two cars.

    For extra $$$ you get a car that is:

    1. More prestigious

    2. Built in Japan

    3. Has better quality paint and build materials

    4. Has more luxury content

    5. Has a smoother quieter ride

    6. Has more technology

    7. Has a longer warranty

    7. And is attached to a company that has a MUCH higher service and vehicle satisfaction rating.

    The ES is Lexus best selling vehicle besides the RX and they sell nearly 80,000 units per year. They must be doing something right for past two decades.

    If ES is exactly same as Camry, than Lexus wouldn't be selling more cars than TL and G35 combined. When someone compares two cars they need to drive and spend some time with those two cars instead of relying on forums or magazines, be a judge for yourself.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    The engine is the same as are some of the suspension components and the basic design of the frame. EVERYTHING else is unique to the two cars.

    Wait a sec here.... everything you mentioned is everything that ties into the driving dynamics of the car. I have driven them both and own an '06 Avalon, so I think I am informed here. Just talking about driving and handling the ES and Camry are essentially the same. Everything else you mention is purely the reason why people will spend (including even me) the extra money over Camry. However, at the end of the day the ES and Camry (Avalon too) are very much related.

    If ES is exactly same as Camry, than Lexus wouldn't be selling more cars than TL and G35 combined

    NO doubt the ES sells well because it is entry level luxury with a smooth quiet ride. Exactly what most people in this segment are looking for. The TL and G are much more sporty than the ES will ever be. The ES is no sport sedan. Keep in mind here I never said Lexus wasn't doing things right, however, the Toyotas they are based on aren't too bad either ;)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    TL(based on Accord) is a sporty looking car but not a sport sedan as it is a FWD car. G35 is a sport sedan as well as 3-series and C-class as they are based on RWD. ES, Camry and Avalon may be related but not twins or triplets. They are not the SAME and one cannot say that as they share only approx 20% of components. If one cannot afford to buy ES and say that I have bought a ES without the price tag, than I have no words for him. Having said that, all 3 cars are good in their respective segments and hence are sales leader but each car caters to different people hence cannot be compared. If one wants to compare Camry than do that with Altima, Malibu, Accord, Sonata, Mazda 6, Passat 2.0, etc but definitely not the ES or Avalon.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    That engine has to undergo serious mods in order to increase the horsepower output even by a few digets
    Huh? Like what? The 2 GR is one of the most sophisticated, efficient, and flexible engines currently available. the 2GR (as well as many other engines) can easily compensate for fuel octane differences thru predetonation detection and the corrresponding timing changes necessary to avoid that predetonation. When pre detonation is detected the spark timing is simply retarded (delayed) thereby costing some HP and likewise the timing can be advanced when no predetonation is detected thereby creating a bit more power. Simple really and certainly not requiring 'serious mods', only some technology and a computer program to apply it.

    Having run both premium and regular in my Avalon, I can tell you that there are negligible power and FE differences using premium vs. regular. My 05 Avalon actually was rated at 280 hp reflecting the use of not only premium but also less some engine driven accessories (like a power steering pump). It was rerated to the 268 effective in 06 and in compliance to SAE testing standards changes and with no engine changes whatsoever. Many mfgrs. were effected (Honda, for example) Since the 'FS' (non direct injected) 2GR engine variant is identical in all respects in the Avalon, the Camry and the ES it also follows that the Avalon engine puts out 272 hp using premium just like the ES does, or for that matter that the ES puts out 268hp on regular. It's no big deal, but I believe any statement that there is any real differences in the engines, power- wise or otherwise, is plainly wrong.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    FWIW is the TL is one of the best handling FWD cars on the road (especially in "Type S" form.

    I know what you are saying about the ES only sharing 20% of parts with the Camry, sure the body panels, interior and controls are different, however those things do little about how the vehicle drives. The ES and Camry are no different than say a Cadillac DTS/Lucerne or Town Car/Grand Marquis.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    generally agree with your contention that any car with with 60% (or more) of its weight over the front (driven) wheels cannot be a sports sedan BUT I really don't think that you'll find too many TL owners that don't at least think it is one. Honda has a done a remarkable job in that particular car engineering out some of the nasty behavior that comes with a lot of HP and FWD.
    Things like Camry XLEs vs ESs, however, 6 of one half dozen of the other - except, of course for that sometimes quite important badge. The Avalon? Simply a larger - and different - car.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the median age for the Avalon buyer used to be 63 before the 05 MY. ANY larger 4 door sedan will necessarily appeal to an older demographic (even the ES) for no other reason than how practical they all tend to be relative to some of those swoopy smaller (and often cheaper) sedans that tend to do better with the younger folks. The younger buyer I would contend is generally more concerned with a 'badge' compared to that older guy that's been around long enough not to care anymore about what others might think. The demographic for the ES buyer is younger - as it logically should be.

    However true it may be that the Avalon still appeals to an older buyer it really is because of its size (as you note) - and styling to some degree - because it certainly has nothing to do with the 6 sec. 0-60s it is capable of - or FTM how 'large' that buyer might be!
  • amauhryamauhry Member Posts: 55
    captain2,

    Since you know your stuff, I’m gonna get technical: I’m fully aware that the tendency to knock is higher when spark advance is increased – and vice versa. The fact is, you can lower/increase an engine’s octane requirement by just playing with the ignition timing.

    The words you noted in italics were said because I believed no do-it-yourselfer or high-tech mechanic (including the dealer) can effectively and efficiently implement even the change you explained (yes, it only requires a bit of know-how and a piece of software); but I think that only the engine designer can tell the computer (the ECM and any related ECU) when the perfect balance between the flame front, power delivery by the pistons and end gases have been achieved. And I said this because if your flame front starts earlier then your end gases (product of combustion) will also start to form earlier within the cylinders, and if you don’t know what you are doing, you gonna end up having incipient knock all over the place before the pistons fully deliver all their potential energy to the crankshaft. Sure, just about anyone with the right tool can do this; what I’m questioning is how efficient the balance can be achieved.

    Yes, using premium will give you a bit more of a push using the approach you explained. Originally I was thinking of a different approach. But I will clarify this NOT to you since, as I said it earlier, I’m sure you know your stuff (and I appreciate you made me look at a different direction regarding this issue): many folks believe premium gasoline is “better” than non-premium, and because it is better, the engine ought to give you more power. Not so. Octane 87 gasoline delivers the same amount of energy per unit volume as octane 93 does. In the case of the 2GR-FE, is the procedure explained above which I think makes the difference and not the “premium” in the gasoline.

    Amaury
    ’08 Limited
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The words you noted in italics were said because I believed no do-it-yourselfer or high-tech mechanic
    no actually this is your original statement obviously with which I have the issue - it can be (and often is) for that 'do-it-yourselfer' to easily and sometimes quite inexpensively get even more than just a few extra HP out of an engine - even one as sophisticated as the 2GR. Ever hear of K&N Air filters? Something like ECU chips are also commonly replaced yielding sometimes very large HP gains although usually at the expense of mfgr. warranties. The point was that is quite easy to get a few extra HP out of almost any engine and that it doesn't necessarily require 'serious' engine modifications as you suggest. The whole explanantion that I went into about the valve and spark timing adjustments that the 2GR can and does make in response to fuel octane ( as well as other things) was only to substantiate that the Avalon engine at 268hp and the ES engine at 272 are indeed exactly the same and it is simply a rating difference because of the fuel octane recommendations.
    In truth it all has to do with marketing - apparently Toyota believes (probably correctly) that the buyer of a Toyota labelled product is more likely to be concerned with the $.40/gallon fuel premium than the Lexus buyer. I, for one, would likely never buy the ES (over the Camry XLE) and/or I would certainly run 87 octane in both if I did - the 4hp is plainly not enough of a difference to justify an extra $7.00 a tank IMO. Not that the ES doesn't offer something extra for the money or that it isn't a very fine automobile just like the Camry and Avalon - it's just not worth it TO ME!
  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    As mentioned before, one should not compare ES to Camry or Avalon. That said, a person might cross shop between Camry, Avalon and ES depending on his needs, affordability, taste and above all value for the money in his perspective. I still think that most of them considering Camry will not cross shop with ES as it is a big jump from family to luxury segment. The approximate price between Camry XLE/Avalon Limited/ES equally equipped is $33,000/$38,000/$43,000 after 5 years (w/o maintenance costs) while considering $1,000 below invoice for Toyota and at invoice for ES, better financing rate on Toyota than Lexus. The numbers are just approximations with zero down and OTD price with 8% sales tax and TTL. My 2 cents, if you are planning to keep the vehicle for 10 years, don't intend to put lot of miles and can afford to pay premium, than go for Lexus. Luxury, dealer/service experience and resale value is amongst the best in the industry.
    I also don't think that the engine used in Rav4/Highlander/Venza/Camry/Avalon/ES/RX are different.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the only difference I have with this is that it is logical to compare the ES with the Camry XLE - despite differences in badge perception, dealer service, and even fit and finish - there is still very little from the bling dept. that can't be had with the cheaper Camry. And it remains true that they are identical in size and certainly mechanically. It is the physically larger Avalon that makes the suspect comparison.
    It is kinda like tjc78 mentioned, if you can accept a DTS buyer shopping the Lucerne, or the Town Car buyer shopping the Marquis why is that really any different than what we have here?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I also don't think that the engine used in Rav4/Highlander/Venza/Camry/Avalon/ES/RX are different.

    not only that but Toyota planned it that way. Back in 2004 Toyota was 'saddled' with a perfectly good group of V6s (despite 'sludging') that were short about 50hp. So they spent literally hundreds of millions to develop the 2GR series actually from the existing 4 liter truck engine and put it first in the 05 Avalon. Turned out to be a helluva good decision, an engine easily good enough for a multitude of uses, plenty good enough to be fitted in any Lexus, and still save the companies a bunch of money. I would even go one step further and include the FSE variant that's in the IS and GS, direct injection while it may make for 40 or 50 more HP does not in itself change what the 2GR is - simply one of THE best V6 engines ever made!.
  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    tjc78 was talking about driving dynamics and both cars are pretty close, otherwise they are different. They might share the same engine, transmission and wheelbase which are most important part of the car but other than that, they don't share anything. If some or most of them are happy that they bought cheaper ES or ES w/4 cylinder than they are SOMETHING.
    Camry sells the best in it's class so they want to carry the same size, engine and transmission to ES to reduce cost and be competitive. This will also help to keep the maintenance costs low. I would suggest you or any other person who strongly feel that Camry and ES are same to spend a day with both the cars back to back. I have come across more posts about these two cars than Accord/TL, Toureg/Q7/Cayenne, MDX/Pilot, Highlander/RX, etc. and it might be because they looked almost the same until 2007 model year.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I guess the thing is that this is a discussion specifically for the purpose of comparing the top of the line Avalon with the ES 350. I think those who do not feel that is an appropriate comparison should feel free not to participate. ;)

    Other comparison topics are welcome. Check out the model listings to see if something suitable is already underway and if you don't see what you'd like, feel free to create it.

    Thanks!
  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    Pat,
    I agree that this is a discussion for comparison between ES and Avalon but still I do not understand that if someone does not feel right about comparing two should not participate. To understand your message better, can I disagree for comparison between Avalon and ES?
  • prazpraz Member Posts: 163
    Captain, you know about Toyota pretty well, impressed. I think, I am barred from this discussion or for any car comparison, I suppose, so good luck to all Camry buyers.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You have already made your feelings well known. Thank you for that. But there is no reason to hang around here to keep repeating them.

    Let those who want to discuss how these cars compare do so.

    Thank you.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    Turned out to be a helluva good decision, an engine easily good enough for a multitude of uses, plenty good enough to be fitted in any Lexus,

    Don't forget the fact that not only does the 2GR produce more power it does so with better FE than the 3.0/3.3.

    the 2GR is - simply one of THE best V6 engines ever made!.

    After 28K miles on my Avalon I can't agree more.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • avalonfanavalonfan Member Posts: 28
    I lease a 2005 Limited and love the car. I Test drove an ES before deciding on the Avalon. The limited has an upscale feel and look, although the ES was a bit more refined. My decision to go with the Avalon was based on the size comparasion between the two. Avalon matches up to an LS430 size wise, while the ES comapres to the Camry. Other than the trunk, Avy has more interior room, period. However, now that my lease is about to run out, I am going back to the ES as Toyota has not updated the Avy Nav system and does not offer a back up camera. It appears to me the a fully loaded ES offers considerably more than Avalon. I can live with the slightly smalled ES interior, but had Toyota updated some of the Avy features, I would have stayed with them. Ride wise I rate them very close to the same with respects to quiet, smooth and power.
  • jpm1908jpm1908 Member Posts: 17
    My experience was the same, I went with the 08 Avalon Limited based on interior room. I also liked the dash layout more than that on the ES. My only mild beefs is are the so-so gas mileage (and the too small tank) and the semi-cheesy grey dashboard plastic.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    "I want to take friends and clients out without apolgizing for the accomodations."

    Apologize that they have to duck their heads a bit to ride in a Lexus? If that was a problem for them, I guess I wouldn't want them in my car. Tell ya what. I discovered long ago that I paid for what I like to drive. If someone is riding in my back seat, I'm doing them a favor by hauling their butt around. If they have to duck their head a bit to get in, and that's unacceptable, they are welcome to drive themselves. The payments come out of my pockets, not theirs. After all, theirs is a very temporary situation. I live with it every day, and there are more than enough compromises in this world than to worry whether someone really likes my back seat. I'm not out to impress someone I may barely know. That being said, I can understand where someone using the vehicle for business, like a realtor, may consider these things.
  • marylandgalmarylandgal Member Posts: 6
    I bought my first new car when the ES 350 first came out and I was down to the wire between it and the Avalon. While I was mulling this over and test driving everything again and again while sitting at stop lights I started noticing that those who drove the Avalon were, uh, a bit older than I (I am 50). In my area of Maryland it seems that many of the Avalon drivers fit the over 60 crowd. The nail in the coffin for Avalon occurred when I told my 21 year old car buff son what I was considering and he was adamant that his mom was not ready to join the blue hair set! It made me howl with laughter but more importantly brought to the surface what a tough job these car designers have with the myriad of factors that come into play when one buys a car. BTW, I love my ES 350, especially the heated and ventilated seats, but will probably turn it in when the lease is up and buy a hybrid of some kind.
  • a1s1a1a1s1a1 Member Posts: 25
    "Perception" is the most important thing which makes a commodoity (Lexus ES in this case) more desirable and hence worthy to own by the ones who can afford it. What makes us percieve things in a particular way is a complex interaction of prestige/styling/worthiness/reliability/fit/finish/after sales service etc.

    Whether the ES shares 20% or 100% parts with avalon really doesn't matter as their personalities and the statement they made are completely different.

    Trying to debate and rationalize why you didn't get the ES but instead got the avalon or camry is like saying that the 30 dollar shoe that you got from K Mart last weekend is almost as good as the expensive Allen Ed. or johnston murphy. Heck! both are made in China too

    Obviously, each of us have a very different perception of cars which keeps the forums like this alive but in general and for the most part a Lexus is a Lexus, whereas a toyota is a toyota nationally and globally! Which concludes my point that an average car buyer doesn't really care how many parts or attributes these cars share but more importantly how each of this car is percieved by them and others who see them in their rides.

    Sounds very superficial! Well unfortunately that is how it is. Enjoy your ride whatever you drive or whatever you can afford to drive.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    Yes, to each his own. I can afford to buy about any car I want, but I bought my Avalon strictly on price and the fact that it was a good car and a Toyota. Then proceeded to make it what I wanted. Drives and looks much better now. We prefer sporty. Loved the new/old VW CC, but the ES350 should be coming off lease soon and I will be in line. The CC may be next, but don't trust European reliability.

    I passed on an 07 ES350 with low miles and loaded. Asking price was $24k with a list in the mid 40's. I'm thinkin I screwed up. No sales tax either. A Boxster is still in my heart though. I have a 90 Lexus LS400 with under 60k that drives like new, but rarely gets driven. I keep thinking I should sell it and get my Boxster, but then again, I think "Where could I ever get this much car again for that price?" Can't keep em both as both garages are full now. Decisions, decisions. I usually let the $$ decide. A big new fancy piece of depreciation just isn't worth it to me. Personal choice. Rather see an investment grow, but then, that ain't happenin either.
  • lexpaullexpaul Member Posts: 40
    I guess I couldn't have expressed my feeling any better than you. You summed it up for me really well. Perception is indeed the key issue here, but IMO and I drove the Avalon Limited before deciding on the ES 350 Level III, is that Lexus is a better built car and it does come with a more should I say prestigious, luxurious and upscale demeanor. Lexus carries a well earned badge of a high value car.

    The overall experience of owning a Lexus from dealership pampering and high grade/quality fit and finish places the car in a different class than the Avalon. I know I'm saying the same things you are but maybe in a different 'way'. I do believe you get what you pay for most of the time.

    However, the Avalon was rated the best large size car in its class by US News Car Rankings and I believe its a great car but just not in the same class as a Lexus and I have never seen it rated in the same category/class as a Lexus. And that's my 'perception'.... :shades:
  • 1lotlizard1lotlizard Member Posts: 14
    I recently cross shopped Avalon, ES350, Camry, and several other competitors and settled on Avalon Limited. All are very nice but, compared to ES350, Avalon is a true 5 passenger car with a flat floor in the back seat. It also has way more head room in back. I am 6'2'' and was unable sit in any of the back seat positions in the ES350. The rear center position in the ES350 is of little value for most situations. For the cars I tested, the Avalon had considerably less vibration, too. I also like that Avalon's manual calls for 87 octane. I ruled out Camry because even the top line leather interior had a short driver's seat that lacked thigh support for me.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    No regular for the ES350? Or is it that they don't state it? I thought that they used the same engine. At any rate, the computer should adjust to the lower octane. I burn regular in our 03 AV when out of the ethanol states. No problem, and get up to 31 MPG running 80. I just saw a Kia ad crowing about 32 MPG for a cracker box. Big deal. Unless that was a combined number.
  • mano3mano3 Member Posts: 8
    The issue of perception is both on the money and off target as it specifically relates to the Avalon Lexus 350 issue.

    Perception may or may not have a basis in reality. In this matter, the reality is that the Avalon and the 350 have a lot in common, starting with the engine. My next door neighbor has a 2008 350 and I'm surprised at the similarities between it and my 2007 Avalon Ltd. Surprisingly, my car has perforated/heated/cooled front seats and hers doesn't, but that's because she didn't order that with hers.

    Nevertheless, my perception is that her Lexus is a luxury car and my Toyota is not. To me, Toyota is not a luxury car maker, but Lexus is, even though the Avalon Ltd. has some luxury engineering and details. My perception is that her car is more quiet and has a more luxury feel. The reality that the Avalon has so much in common with the Lexus gives me a greater sense of perceived value. Yet, I can see why Lexus charges and gets a premium for their cars.

    a1s1a1, I'm a shoe guy. Allen Edmonds is made in the USA and is a very well crafted shoe. Johnston Murphy is made in various places overseas, but is also well made, albeit not up the the AE standards. There's no comparison between either and a KMart shoe, which is poorly made, regardless of where it's made.
  • jsier29jsier29 Member Posts: 1
    Can a XM radio kit be safely purchase on Ebay ?
    if so does it have to be instal by the Dealer who charges a arm and a leg or can a regular radio shop instal it as well
    will appreciate a answer to my question
    thanks JSIER 29
  • digdug2digdug2 Member Posts: 1
    I perceive you as yuppie scum and an idiot.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    "I perceive you as yuppie scum and an idiot."

    Now that wasn't nice was it? The man was just stating an opinion. He is entitled to that. We all go through different phases in life. Sometimes we put too much value on how others perceive us. I always told our kids that if someone judges you by what brand clothes you wear, you probably don't want to know them anyway. How many jocks end up being quite average with a big beer gut? How many nerds end up being big successes?

    I always felt that if one needs to be pampered and catered to, there may be something else of major importance missing. Do we all feel some inferiority deep inside as we try to find out who we are and where real value lies? There is a book titled The Millionaire Next Door that describes those who are self made millionaires. They live a modest life and know who they are. Most would never know what they have.

    Others need to flaunt it so everyone can see. But far too many do it with credit, leased cars and finances stretched to the limit. Apparently, they feel the need for approval from others. Some need the image for their job, or feel that they do. We all eventually settle into a 'comfort zone'. Maybe it depends how we got to where are. If you grew up with everything, that's probably where you think you should be. If you had to work your way up to that level, you may see things quite differently.

    Now, about them shoes. Kmart sells $30 shoes? Wow, I gotta save up and git me some of those. ;-) I paid $7 for mine. They have these neat little velcro straps that make them easy to slip on and off. I wear them almost daily around home as my 'work' shoes and treat them with no respect. They are a flimsy piece of crap. They are also over 5 years old and my toes peek out the holes in the front. I'm proud of them lil buggers. They have no right to still be around. The point is, even products like this can serve their purpose. Would they fit at the country club. Oh heavens no. But on the other hand, I never go there. My cars never go to the dealer either. I don't need his prices or pampering, and they rarely fail. I have never been treated disrespectfully for wearing my grub clothes and shoes into a store as most people can see past that. No, I don't live in Beverly Hills where they probably would look down their noses, but I guess I would never feel comfortable there anyway. My value is in my friends who accept me for who I am and not where I have membership or by what I drive. Nothing to prove and no one wants proof. I like it that way. But it's all personal choice. If you choose to pay the price to be pampered, go for it. It's your dollar.
  • gringoviejogringoviejo Member Posts: 11
    When I bought my 2000 Avalon XLS, in December 1999, it was because the new Acura TL I ordered didn't allow me to get comfortable in the front seat (6'2", 200 lb at the time). I went across the street to buy a new ES 300 and found the cabin similarly tight, but there was/is a *lot* more room in the front seat of the Avalon. It just turned 120,000 miles, and I'll be replacing it soon. (BTW, to overcome the marshmallow ride and sloppy handling, I replaced the original shocks with KYB's, upgraded the tires to 225/55 x 16 W-rated Conti's, and upgraded the brake pads and suspension bushings: *big* difference: the ride is still smooth but handling is much improved.)

    Put a bid on a very low mileage 2007 Avalon Limited yesterday. My $0.02: The exterior dimensions are larger than I'd like, but again: more room in all seats. With all the extra equipment, the new Avalon also seems nearly as, well, "fru-fru" as the ES, but the ride and routine handling are really good, and the only option lacking is the backup camera.

    Also, I do like the exterior design of the ES better, and the quality of interior materials is higher, as is the build quality. On the other hand, I seem to do better if my clients don't think they're paying for my Lexus.

    As for old people, I've seen plenty of blue hairs driving ES350's, and I did have that concern when I bought the 2000 XLS; however, now I'm 12 years older and don't care anymore.

    PS: I also drove a new Hyndai Genesis yesterday. Nice car, lots of features, great warranty, good value... but my wife and I got into the old Avalon to go home and wondered, "Why are we getting rid of this car? It rides a lot better than the Genesis." The answer, of course, is that at this mileage point, a lot of components (like O2 sensors) need to be replaced, and the law of diminishing returns set in last year or the year before.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    Ah yes, the same suspension upgrade we did on our 03. Love it. Purrs like a kitten, handles great and fun to drive. Someone who had had the various said the 03 are the best. Can't argue with that. We too considered upgrading. We too thought the newer AV is too big. I'm thinkin a target of 200k or until something falls into my lap.
    We're at 96k and just made the trip from MN to AZ. Dust and wind really bad. We had 60 MPH headwind gusts way before we hit Tucumcari NM, then a dust storm around Deming and a snowstorm on I-10. Full load, 80+ MPH, still got 26 MPG. Car handled it just fine with the heavy duty suspension I had put on it.

    Dust and wind really bad. We had 60 MPH headwind gusts way before we hit Tucumcari NM the day before and it had not subsided. Full load, 80+ MPH, still got 26 MPG. Car handled it just fine with the heavy duty suspension I had put on it.

    If you consider your tax, license, insurance, depreciation etc. you can pay for anything that may go wrong.

    I agree on the Hyundai. Suspension not refined yet. Prefer to drive the AV, as is the case with most I try out. Kinda fits like an old glove.
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    Here is my comparison of the two vehicles. the ES-350 costs considerably more, has considerably less interior room, and premium fuel is recommended for the ES-350.

    How much is "I drive a Lexus" worth? Not very much to me!
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    So, what is the difference between the Avalon and ES350 engines? Any more power in the Lexus? If not, why must you burn premium? I burn regular in my 03 AV.
  • loucapriloucapri Member Posts: 214
    Before the holiday, I went car shopping. We have an 06 Limited and my wife loves it. So I first looked at older Avalon (for lower cost). Checked out a couple 2000, they drove ok (XLS) but felt a little dated. However, the disappointment came from "closing the door". I noticed once I closed the driver side door, the roof "pop", "move" whatever you called. I went outside, closed the door again, I could still see the roof "pop" a little.

    Once I got back to the 06, I checked the roof, didn't "pop". Seems more solid. Not to mention the nice solid sound on closing the door (any door).

    So last week I went to Lexus, checked out some older (2002-2004) ES. High quality inside, well built. You can tell, great leather, feel solid when closing the door. BUT they are smaller :( We have 2 kids with car seat and booster so back seat is important. The ES just doesn't have good backseat space.

    Then I saw an 05 Limited on the same lot. The ES has 45K miles and the Avalon has 78K and both priced very close. I picked the Avalon instead :)
    In term of feature, Limited has DVD NAV, start button, heated/cooled seat, real sunshade, HID, use regular fuel, has more HP. And more space from the rear seat. So the choice is easy and now we have a silver 06 and dark red 05 both limited :)

    You really can't go wrong with the Avalon
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    PS: I also drove a new Hyndai Genesis yesterday. Nice car, lots of features, great warranty, good value... but my wife and I got into the old Avalon to go home and wondered, "Why are we getting rid of this car? It rides a lot better than the Genesis."

    If you like the Avalon/ES350 ride do not buy the Genesis. I went from an Avalon to the Genesis and hate the ride, it is very "unsettled" and firm.

    As for comparing the Avalon to the ES. They are both so similar IMO if you like the extra room go for the Avalon , if you want something smaller the ES is a hell of a car too.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    You are asking questions I do not have answers for. I drive an Avalon also.

    The ES-350 owners manual says 93 octane recommended. That is premium.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,701
    "Recommended" means there's some drop in performance or economy or both, but you can use it. Same words in my ES300's manual, I've used regular for 15 years with no problems. The Av and ES350 engines are practically identical, the ES might have mapping allowing more hp with premium, or it may just be identical.
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