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Comments
Loved the way you made your point. You're damn good.
Amaury
'08 Limited
Really? Same engine, same frame, mostly the same suspension...... They drive similar, the size is the biggest difference. IMO if you need the size go for the Avalon, if you like the smaller vehicle go for the ES at a small price premium.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Nice gratuitous insult. Not needed. I've looked at both, currently drive an ES300, and the ES350 is not acceptible because of the compromises made to styling. The rear door opening has been squashed to go after the 4-door coupe look. I want to take friends and clients out without apolgizing for the accomodations.
Wow... I certainly hope you are the mecca of physical fitness to make that statement. I am just 30 and picked the Avalon for its size because yes I am on the bigger side and 2) when I do take people out I (they) appreciate the extra room. For the driver the front seating area is very similar in the two cars and even though I guess I "have serious health issues" would fit into the ES just fine.
As for the ES "standing out" I have driven the ES and a fully decked out Camry XLE V6 and can tell you they drive the same. The Lexus has better materials inside and may be a touch quieter, but there isn't all that much difference other than equipment levels and in all fairness the ES is a better looking car (10K better looking.. debatable).
As for comparing it to the Avalon... IMO they are equal with the Lexus having the advantage of more available equipment and a better dealership experience/service and warranty. All at the expense of interior room and a few thousand on the sticker.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
For extra $$$ you get a car that is:
1. More prestigious
2. Built in Japan
3. Has better quality paint and build materials
4. Has more luxury content
5. Has a smoother quieter ride
6. Has more technology
7. Has a longer warranty
7. And is attached to a company that has a MUCH higher service and vehicle satisfaction rating.
The ES is Lexus best selling vehicle besides the RX and they sell nearly 80,000 units per year. They must be doing something right for past two decades.
If ES is exactly same as Camry, than Lexus wouldn't be selling more cars than TL and G35 combined. When someone compares two cars they need to drive and spend some time with those two cars instead of relying on forums or magazines, be a judge for yourself.
Wait a sec here.... everything you mentioned is everything that ties into the driving dynamics of the car. I have driven them both and own an '06 Avalon, so I think I am informed here. Just talking about driving and handling the ES and Camry are essentially the same. Everything else you mention is purely the reason why people will spend (including even me) the extra money over Camry. However, at the end of the day the ES and Camry (Avalon too) are very much related.
If ES is exactly same as Camry, than Lexus wouldn't be selling more cars than TL and G35 combined
NO doubt the ES sells well because it is entry level luxury with a smooth quiet ride. Exactly what most people in this segment are looking for. The TL and G are much more sporty than the ES will ever be. The ES is no sport sedan. Keep in mind here I never said Lexus wasn't doing things right, however, the Toyotas they are based on aren't too bad either
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Huh? Like what? The 2 GR is one of the most sophisticated, efficient, and flexible engines currently available. the 2GR (as well as many other engines) can easily compensate for fuel octane differences thru predetonation detection and the corrresponding timing changes necessary to avoid that predetonation. When pre detonation is detected the spark timing is simply retarded (delayed) thereby costing some HP and likewise the timing can be advanced when no predetonation is detected thereby creating a bit more power. Simple really and certainly not requiring 'serious mods', only some technology and a computer program to apply it.
Having run both premium and regular in my Avalon, I can tell you that there are negligible power and FE differences using premium vs. regular. My 05 Avalon actually was rated at 280 hp reflecting the use of not only premium but also less some engine driven accessories (like a power steering pump). It was rerated to the 268 effective in 06 and in compliance to SAE testing standards changes and with no engine changes whatsoever. Many mfgrs. were effected (Honda, for example) Since the 'FS' (non direct injected) 2GR engine variant is identical in all respects in the Avalon, the Camry and the ES it also follows that the Avalon engine puts out 272 hp using premium just like the ES does, or for that matter that the ES puts out 268hp on regular. It's no big deal, but I believe any statement that there is any real differences in the engines, power- wise or otherwise, is plainly wrong.
I know what you are saying about the ES only sharing 20% of parts with the Camry, sure the body panels, interior and controls are different, however those things do little about how the vehicle drives. The ES and Camry are no different than say a Cadillac DTS/Lucerne or Town Car/Grand Marquis.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Things like Camry XLEs vs ESs, however, 6 of one half dozen of the other - except, of course for that sometimes quite important badge. The Avalon? Simply a larger - and different - car.
However true it may be that the Avalon still appeals to an older buyer it really is because of its size (as you note) - and styling to some degree - because it certainly has nothing to do with the 6 sec. 0-60s it is capable of - or FTM how 'large' that buyer might be!
Since you know your stuff, I’m gonna get technical: I’m fully aware that the tendency to knock is higher when spark advance is increased – and vice versa. The fact is, you can lower/increase an engine’s octane requirement by just playing with the ignition timing.
The words you noted in italics were said because I believed no do-it-yourselfer or high-tech mechanic (including the dealer) can effectively and efficiently implement even the change you explained (yes, it only requires a bit of know-how and a piece of software); but I think that only the engine designer can tell the computer (the ECM and any related ECU) when the perfect balance between the flame front, power delivery by the pistons and end gases have been achieved. And I said this because if your flame front starts earlier then your end gases (product of combustion) will also start to form earlier within the cylinders, and if you don’t know what you are doing, you gonna end up having incipient knock all over the place before the pistons fully deliver all their potential energy to the crankshaft. Sure, just about anyone with the right tool can do this; what I’m questioning is how efficient the balance can be achieved.
Yes, using premium will give you a bit more of a push using the approach you explained. Originally I was thinking of a different approach. But I will clarify this NOT to you since, as I said it earlier, I’m sure you know your stuff (and I appreciate you made me look at a different direction regarding this issue): many folks believe premium gasoline is “better” than non-premium, and because it is better, the engine ought to give you more power. Not so. Octane 87 gasoline delivers the same amount of energy per unit volume as octane 93 does. In the case of the 2GR-FE, is the procedure explained above which I think makes the difference and not the “premium” in the gasoline.
Amaury
’08 Limited
no actually this is your original statement obviously with which I have the issue - it can be (and often is) for that 'do-it-yourselfer' to easily and sometimes quite inexpensively get even more than just a few extra HP out of an engine - even one as sophisticated as the 2GR. Ever hear of K&N Air filters? Something like ECU chips are also commonly replaced yielding sometimes very large HP gains although usually at the expense of mfgr. warranties. The point was that is quite easy to get a few extra HP out of almost any engine and that it doesn't necessarily require 'serious' engine modifications as you suggest. The whole explanantion that I went into about the valve and spark timing adjustments that the 2GR can and does make in response to fuel octane ( as well as other things) was only to substantiate that the Avalon engine at 268hp and the ES engine at 272 are indeed exactly the same and it is simply a rating difference because of the fuel octane recommendations.
In truth it all has to do with marketing - apparently Toyota believes (probably correctly) that the buyer of a Toyota labelled product is more likely to be concerned with the $.40/gallon fuel premium than the Lexus buyer. I, for one, would likely never buy the ES (over the Camry XLE) and/or I would certainly run 87 octane in both if I did - the 4hp is plainly not enough of a difference to justify an extra $7.00 a tank IMO. Not that the ES doesn't offer something extra for the money or that it isn't a very fine automobile just like the Camry and Avalon - it's just not worth it TO ME!
I also don't think that the engine used in Rav4/Highlander/Venza/Camry/Avalon/ES/RX are different.
It is kinda like tjc78 mentioned, if you can accept a DTS buyer shopping the Lucerne, or the Town Car buyer shopping the Marquis why is that really any different than what we have here?
not only that but Toyota planned it that way. Back in 2004 Toyota was 'saddled' with a perfectly good group of V6s (despite 'sludging') that were short about 50hp. So they spent literally hundreds of millions to develop the 2GR series actually from the existing 4 liter truck engine and put it first in the 05 Avalon. Turned out to be a helluva good decision, an engine easily good enough for a multitude of uses, plenty good enough to be fitted in any Lexus, and still save the companies a bunch of money. I would even go one step further and include the FSE variant that's in the IS and GS, direct injection while it may make for 40 or 50 more HP does not in itself change what the 2GR is - simply one of THE best V6 engines ever made!.
Camry sells the best in it's class so they want to carry the same size, engine and transmission to ES to reduce cost and be competitive. This will also help to keep the maintenance costs low. I would suggest you or any other person who strongly feel that Camry and ES are same to spend a day with both the cars back to back. I have come across more posts about these two cars than Accord/TL, Toureg/Q7/Cayenne, MDX/Pilot, Highlander/RX, etc. and it might be because they looked almost the same until 2007 model year.
Other comparison topics are welcome. Check out the model listings to see if something suitable is already underway and if you don't see what you'd like, feel free to create it.
Thanks!
I agree that this is a discussion for comparison between ES and Avalon but still I do not understand that if someone does not feel right about comparing two should not participate. To understand your message better, can I disagree for comparison between Avalon and ES?
Let those who want to discuss how these cars compare do so.
Thank you.
Don't forget the fact that not only does the 2GR produce more power it does so with better FE than the 3.0/3.3.
the 2GR is - simply one of THE best V6 engines ever made!.
After 28K miles on my Avalon I can't agree more.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Apologize that they have to duck their heads a bit to ride in a Lexus? If that was a problem for them, I guess I wouldn't want them in my car. Tell ya what. I discovered long ago that I paid for what I like to drive. If someone is riding in my back seat, I'm doing them a favor by hauling their butt around. If they have to duck their head a bit to get in, and that's unacceptable, they are welcome to drive themselves. The payments come out of my pockets, not theirs. After all, theirs is a very temporary situation. I live with it every day, and there are more than enough compromises in this world than to worry whether someone really likes my back seat. I'm not out to impress someone I may barely know. That being said, I can understand where someone using the vehicle for business, like a realtor, may consider these things.
Whether the ES shares 20% or 100% parts with avalon really doesn't matter as their personalities and the statement they made are completely different.
Trying to debate and rationalize why you didn't get the ES but instead got the avalon or camry is like saying that the 30 dollar shoe that you got from K Mart last weekend is almost as good as the expensive Allen Ed. or johnston murphy. Heck! both are made in China too
Obviously, each of us have a very different perception of cars which keeps the forums like this alive but in general and for the most part a Lexus is a Lexus, whereas a toyota is a toyota nationally and globally! Which concludes my point that an average car buyer doesn't really care how many parts or attributes these cars share but more importantly how each of this car is percieved by them and others who see them in their rides.
Sounds very superficial! Well unfortunately that is how it is. Enjoy your ride whatever you drive or whatever you can afford to drive.
I passed on an 07 ES350 with low miles and loaded. Asking price was $24k with a list in the mid 40's. I'm thinkin I screwed up. No sales tax either. A Boxster is still in my heart though. I have a 90 Lexus LS400 with under 60k that drives like new, but rarely gets driven. I keep thinking I should sell it and get my Boxster, but then again, I think "Where could I ever get this much car again for that price?" Can't keep em both as both garages are full now. Decisions, decisions. I usually let the $$ decide. A big new fancy piece of depreciation just isn't worth it to me. Personal choice. Rather see an investment grow, but then, that ain't happenin either.
The overall experience of owning a Lexus from dealership pampering and high grade/quality fit and finish places the car in a different class than the Avalon. I know I'm saying the same things you are but maybe in a different 'way'. I do believe you get what you pay for most of the time.
However, the Avalon was rated the best large size car in its class by US News Car Rankings and I believe its a great car but just not in the same class as a Lexus and I have never seen it rated in the same category/class as a Lexus. And that's my 'perception'.... :shades:
Perception may or may not have a basis in reality. In this matter, the reality is that the Avalon and the 350 have a lot in common, starting with the engine. My next door neighbor has a 2008 350 and I'm surprised at the similarities between it and my 2007 Avalon Ltd. Surprisingly, my car has perforated/heated/cooled front seats and hers doesn't, but that's because she didn't order that with hers.
Nevertheless, my perception is that her Lexus is a luxury car and my Toyota is not. To me, Toyota is not a luxury car maker, but Lexus is, even though the Avalon Ltd. has some luxury engineering and details. My perception is that her car is more quiet and has a more luxury feel. The reality that the Avalon has so much in common with the Lexus gives me a greater sense of perceived value. Yet, I can see why Lexus charges and gets a premium for their cars.
a1s1a1, I'm a shoe guy. Allen Edmonds is made in the USA and is a very well crafted shoe. Johnston Murphy is made in various places overseas, but is also well made, albeit not up the the AE standards. There's no comparison between either and a KMart shoe, which is poorly made, regardless of where it's made.
if so does it have to be instal by the Dealer who charges a arm and a leg or can a regular radio shop instal it as well
will appreciate a answer to my question
thanks JSIER 29
Now that wasn't nice was it? The man was just stating an opinion. He is entitled to that. We all go through different phases in life. Sometimes we put too much value on how others perceive us. I always told our kids that if someone judges you by what brand clothes you wear, you probably don't want to know them anyway. How many jocks end up being quite average with a big beer gut? How many nerds end up being big successes?
I always felt that if one needs to be pampered and catered to, there may be something else of major importance missing. Do we all feel some inferiority deep inside as we try to find out who we are and where real value lies? There is a book titled The Millionaire Next Door that describes those who are self made millionaires. They live a modest life and know who they are. Most would never know what they have.
Others need to flaunt it so everyone can see. But far too many do it with credit, leased cars and finances stretched to the limit. Apparently, they feel the need for approval from others. Some need the image for their job, or feel that they do. We all eventually settle into a 'comfort zone'. Maybe it depends how we got to where are. If you grew up with everything, that's probably where you think you should be. If you had to work your way up to that level, you may see things quite differently.
Now, about them shoes. Kmart sells $30 shoes? Wow, I gotta save up and git me some of those. ;-) I paid $7 for mine. They have these neat little velcro straps that make them easy to slip on and off. I wear them almost daily around home as my 'work' shoes and treat them with no respect. They are a flimsy piece of crap. They are also over 5 years old and my toes peek out the holes in the front. I'm proud of them lil buggers. They have no right to still be around. The point is, even products like this can serve their purpose. Would they fit at the country club. Oh heavens no. But on the other hand, I never go there. My cars never go to the dealer either. I don't need his prices or pampering, and they rarely fail. I have never been treated disrespectfully for wearing my grub clothes and shoes into a store as most people can see past that. No, I don't live in Beverly Hills where they probably would look down their noses, but I guess I would never feel comfortable there anyway. My value is in my friends who accept me for who I am and not where I have membership or by what I drive. Nothing to prove and no one wants proof. I like it that way. But it's all personal choice. If you choose to pay the price to be pampered, go for it. It's your dollar.
Put a bid on a very low mileage 2007 Avalon Limited yesterday. My $0.02: The exterior dimensions are larger than I'd like, but again: more room in all seats. With all the extra equipment, the new Avalon also seems nearly as, well, "fru-fru" as the ES, but the ride and routine handling are really good, and the only option lacking is the backup camera.
Also, I do like the exterior design of the ES better, and the quality of interior materials is higher, as is the build quality. On the other hand, I seem to do better if my clients don't think they're paying for my Lexus.
As for old people, I've seen plenty of blue hairs driving ES350's, and I did have that concern when I bought the 2000 XLS; however, now I'm 12 years older and don't care anymore.
PS: I also drove a new Hyndai Genesis yesterday. Nice car, lots of features, great warranty, good value... but my wife and I got into the old Avalon to go home and wondered, "Why are we getting rid of this car? It rides a lot better than the Genesis." The answer, of course, is that at this mileage point, a lot of components (like O2 sensors) need to be replaced, and the law of diminishing returns set in last year or the year before.
We're at 96k and just made the trip from MN to AZ. Dust and wind really bad. We had 60 MPH headwind gusts way before we hit Tucumcari NM, then a dust storm around Deming and a snowstorm on I-10. Full load, 80+ MPH, still got 26 MPG. Car handled it just fine with the heavy duty suspension I had put on it.
Dust and wind really bad. We had 60 MPH headwind gusts way before we hit Tucumcari NM the day before and it had not subsided. Full load, 80+ MPH, still got 26 MPG. Car handled it just fine with the heavy duty suspension I had put on it.
If you consider your tax, license, insurance, depreciation etc. you can pay for anything that may go wrong.
I agree on the Hyundai. Suspension not refined yet. Prefer to drive the AV, as is the case with most I try out. Kinda fits like an old glove.
How much is "I drive a Lexus" worth? Not very much to me!
Once I got back to the 06, I checked the roof, didn't "pop". Seems more solid. Not to mention the nice solid sound on closing the door (any door).
So last week I went to Lexus, checked out some older (2002-2004) ES. High quality inside, well built. You can tell, great leather, feel solid when closing the door. BUT they are smaller We have 2 kids with car seat and booster so back seat is important. The ES just doesn't have good backseat space.
Then I saw an 05 Limited on the same lot. The ES has 45K miles and the Avalon has 78K and both priced very close. I picked the Avalon instead
In term of feature, Limited has DVD NAV, start button, heated/cooled seat, real sunshade, HID, use regular fuel, has more HP. And more space from the rear seat. So the choice is easy and now we have a silver 06 and dark red 05 both limited
You really can't go wrong with the Avalon
If you like the Avalon/ES350 ride do not buy the Genesis. I went from an Avalon to the Genesis and hate the ride, it is very "unsettled" and firm.
As for comparing the Avalon to the ES. They are both so similar IMO if you like the extra room go for the Avalon , if you want something smaller the ES is a hell of a car too.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The ES-350 owners manual says 93 octane recommended. That is premium.