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It is indeed a strange conundrum!
Not sure I get this one either - If my math is correct, a person driving the average 12,000 per year with a $0.20 charge per gallon for premium (over regular) gas would incur a total annual additional cost of $120.00, assuming the vehicle gets only 20 MPG.
12,000 miles / 20 MPG = 600 gallons per year x $0.20 = $120.00
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In fuel requirements, manufacturers have for years used "required" for those engines that must have premium.
The Lexus OTOH is rated at 272HP and specs out using premium gas to obtain that number.
I ran plain old 87 in my 06 Avalon and never had any problem whatsoever. If I had an ES350 I wouldn't hesitate to put in regular. The computer will adjust for it anyway.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Just use whatever you are comfortable with
Ummm, I think they call that marketing. The customer needs to feel that they are getting something more with the Lexus.
Anyone want to calculate the feel good factor? Twenty cents more per gallon for premium vs 2-3 more MPG? I'm thinkin it doesn't balance out. I burn regular unless mid grade with ethanol is the same price, but then you get less MPG with ethanol. Another wash?
Bottom line, buy what's a fit for you and forget it.
That said, my experience has been that gas mileage will improve 5% or more by moving up to mid-grade 89 octane from 87. That's 15 cents you can spend if 87 octane is 3 bucks a gallon and you enjoy a little better overall performance from the engine. Moving up to premium adds nothing to the mileage and would appear to be a waste of money. This has been true of all generations of Avalon, all engines, I have done this repeatedly, city and highway, and always get similar results.
As for power production, premium will actually feel different if you usually burn 87 octane. Empty the tank and fill up with 91 or higher. There is a slight difference in straight line maximum acceleration. Not enough for me to pay the extra, 89 is ok, but if you want to pay for it...it's there.
Enjoy the Avalons all...great cars....
I brought it back to the dealer and they advised it was caused by the cooling fan(s) in the seat. That it is a known issue by Toyota and has NO FIX.
I then drove a new Avalon (w/cooled seats) and it had the same problem. My friend and the Toyota dealer also feel the fan lumps.
I have set-up a case file with Toyota.
Has anyone heard of this problem?
Please advise. Thanks
jim
It really depends on the fuel table coding. In most cars you will only have a single fuel table that supports 87 octane and therefore anything else is a waste of money. But, if you have DUAL fuel table that is properly calibrated you will see a difference. This one of the changes we add to the GM ECM tune I install it in the 8.1L V8 used in RV's.
It is not the cooling fan, the single fan is located center front by your crotch.
After my consistent complaint the Toyota Rep meet me at dealer and dealer (I was present) took apart the drivers seat. The problem is the spring(s) are felt by anyone over approx. 200lb. Our weight compresses the foam to the point the bottom springs are contacted & your feel them.
The fix (done on my 2011') is to add a layer of padding.
The seat cover comes off fairly easy, after the seat is removed.
The added padding is not put over the fan area; so both the heat (a heater pad) & fan will fuction properly. Being a known issue, why doesn't Toyota correct this, I ask? It's simply based on # of complaints, I was advised.
Sad.
Question: Do you have any more details on the fix that we can describe to our dealership/Toyota rep??? Is there a "standard" fix, or was this a custom solution to your problem? Toyota says there is no Service campaign or bulletin on this as of this writing. How much additional padding did you add? My husband is tall and wants more padding, but not too much or headroom will become an issue! Any help/details/insight appreciated!!!! Thanks!
Best Luck,
jimbavalon2011
Ask your dealer to get Toyota Rep. involved. Both should contack Mr. Thomas Barton at Orland Toyota (Orland Park, IL.) 708-429-3900. The Toyota Rep for Orland Toyota is Mr. Melvin Maw. He should have done a report on this work and filed it with Toyota..
ps: I also drove another 2011 Avalon, they ALL have same fault in seat.
Best Luck
Jim
You have no idea how much I appreciate your quick replies and the information you just provided!!! This is fantastic!!! I will DEFINITELY let you know how I make out on this. LOVE the car and just want this fixed...Thank you! Cathy
I have been following your dialogue, as I have the same problem with my 2011 Avalon that I bought in February. I am in the process of having the driver's seat repaired in the same manner as had Jim. I was wondering if the passenger's seat should also be re-padded, as it is only slightly more comfortable than the driver's seat.
Jim, I think I also feel something hard against my tailbone that feels like it resides in the bottom of the seat back as opposed to the seat cushion. I do not know if you experienced that as well. All I do know is that I feel pain in my coccyx, butt and upper thighs and sure hope this re-padding addresses all of those issues.
Thanks to both of you for having shared. It has been extremely helpful.
Although this may not be called a safety issue, Toyota should advise dealers of this problem and supply a FIX (a proper cut out of correct density material to be added) for their customers over 5'8" and/or weighting over 200 pounds.
Cathy's husband here, Marc. Cathy and I both feel that the passenger side also has an issue, but it is not nearly as severe or pronounced as the driver's seat. I am not sure why. Would have thought the seats are identical, but I have noticed one definite difference. Driver's has extended thigh support adjustment ( not sure what Toyota calls this) but passenger does not. You can basically extend the front edge of the driver's seat bottom to provide more thigh support, but you can't do that on the passenger side. Otherwise, I think the seats are identical. Maybe this is the reason the passenger side is not as bad ????? Maybe there is a motor bracket or something for the driver's side that is NOT there on passenger side??? Just my theory. Bottom line is that Toyota should fix BOTH seats, but driver's side is really our primary concern at this point, since driver comfort could potentially result in safety concern (i.e. shifting in seat at speed to get comfortable)
BTW, totally agree on the >200lb criteria Jim mentioned. Others who weigh less don't seem to have the same complaint, which would seem to make sense. However, I would want to make sure ALL those drivers <200 lbs drive the car for at least an hour first!!! Then if they don't feel the discomfort, I would be convinced!!!
Jim, our dealership GM is reaching out to the contacts you provided in IL...he has been VERY cooperative and receptvie to what we have to say on this matter. I remain optimistic!!!! Will definitely keep you and Sylvester updated. Thanks again for the help and suggestions!!!
Bad news to report. My Toyota GM ( or service manager) called the Orland Park IL contacts you provided. The bottom line that I got back was that the fix that they did to your Avalon driver's was not "sanctioned" by Toyota. They told me they replaced your seat with a "Sequoia seat, but that was not a "Toyota-approved" solution from a warranty viewpoint. Can you comment? My dealership GM is telling me he can't unilaterally change the seat or it potentially voids warranty and/or safety ( air bag). This makes sense on one hand, as I can understand he cant just go and start modifying things without Toyota's approval. So how did you get to your Sequoia seat solution??? Who suggested it??? Thanks!
Tried calling the contact (Thomas Barton) at Orland Park IL Toyota where you had your Avalon seat fixed. Unfortunately, he no longer works there.!!! I am trying to resolve your description of the fix ( added padding to your seat) vs what my dealership GM told me after they talked to Orland ( replaced with a Sequoia seat???). I am hoping to meet the factory rep this week and having this info would be really helpful. Is there anyone else at Orland you dealt with that is familiar with your repair that I could speak with ????
Sorry I have not posted in a while. We are still struggling with Toyota on this issue. They sent their rep- - very nice and professional - - but he was not very forthcoming with any information. He did his internet research and did say Toyota is "aware" of all these complaints, and that there is " alot out there" this issue. He also acknowledged the lumps that my wife and I are feeling in the seat, but officially states there is no defect and that the seats conforms to its design! He has spoken directly to your Orland Toyota rep, but he told me your "fix" was "dealer-sponsored" and not anything that Toyota devised or sanctioned. So my dealership won't do for me, what yours did for you!!! ugh.
What Toyota HQ has told me TWICE now is to fill out out the claim form in the glove box with all the manuals, and start the third party arbitration process. Basically, I have been advised that I can claim the full price of the car and see what I get! Wouldn't inserting a 1/2 piece of foam for $20 between the frame and seat bottom make more sense for everyone? The ONLY reason I am going though all this aggravation is because my wife and i love....I mean LOVE.... the rest of the car....its a home run ( except for the seat lump). Customer loyalty should not be this hard...(Toyota if you are reading this PLEASE invite me to a customer focus group!!!)
BTW, that "lump" in my case (Avalon Limited) is a small rigid plastic air plenum that connects the flexible air hose to the blower motor for cooled seats. The plastic plenum is a "connector" ( somewhat similar to the end of a garden hose) that directs cool air into a hole in the seat bottom padding. There are built in air ducts in the seat pad that direct air through the holes in the leather. What I am feeling is that rigid plastic "connector". I have asked the dealership to remove that plastic piece, as I dont car about cooled seats. But so far no luck. No one wants to touch it!
That's the update! I'll keep you posted!
I advise you just get it fixed by a auto upholstery shop. As you correctly stated the material used for the fix won't be much money, mainly labor.
I can't tell you the thickness or density of the material- for I did not see it.
The upholstery guy when he opens the seat (and talks to you) will figure out the correct fix. I estimate the time to remove seat, fix(add padding) & reinstall at 2 hour +/-. The seat cover comes off easy. You will keep heat & cooling.
My seat now is perfect, yours will be also. Soon you will forget this pain in the [non-permissible content removed] ordeal.
I wonder the real number of complaints on this problem., how many other forums is this talked about.
Keep it touch - best luck.
Jim B.
Frankfort, IL.
Car has 300 miles on it. Love it, but very uncomfortable and I drive 1 hr each way to work.
I'm guessing Toyota won't help? Answer seems to be to take it to a car upholstery company and get another layer of cushion installed? I would do that if it works. Love the car so far.
Will come back after my visit to Toyota next week.
Went back to Toyota dealer with a print out of this thread along with another posted elsewhere. They did the right thing! They sent the car out to a seat upholsterer and they added a little foam. Took one day; got a loaner. Seems to be fine now. They said it was not a "sanctioned" fix, but were going to try anyways. Seems to have worked - still have cooling and heating in seat.
My 4th Toyota in 10 years. Way to go DCH of Mamaroneck NY!!
My 4th Toyota in 10 years. Way to go DCH of Mamaroneck NY!!
I have also ran into this kind of service at Toyota dealers. Pretty amazing in these times. I lost my only key to an Avalon once that was 10 years old. Towed it to the dealer - where I DIDN'T buy it, and they put a new computer in the car and gave me 2 new keys, with 100,000 miles on the car. I was stunned!
Plus, other owners searching for a good dealership in your area will see the good review and hopefully reward them with more business.
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The dealerships are less than 2 miles apart so it was easy and quick to do the comparison drives. We started with the Lexus, my wife wanted all the bells and whistles so the car was in the $43K+ range and the Avalon had a $41K MSRP for comparison. We drove both cars over basically the same roads, used the ECO/Normal and Sport modes in each. Because of the comments concerning the new Avalon ride I made sure we went over some fairly rough back road and well as interstate highway.
The 350 had Mich and the Avalon had Bridgestones, but the 350 we test drove was not the color we wanted so when we talked deal we specified that the car we wanted had to have Mich and they agreed to swap out if needed at no additional cost. The Toyota dealer said they could try but that was a $450 hit to their deal. I also wanted the protective film, again the Lexus dealer threw that in on the deal ($400 option if dealer installed) but again the Toyota dealer said that would again be a hit to their profit on the deal.
The next issue was the financing 1.9 for the Lexus but 2.9 on the Avalon (Toyota dealer said it would cost them $400 to buy down the rate to 2.0% which was the lowest they could go).
Finally it came down to the bells and whistles my wife wanted/liked.
1st Lexus has power adjustments to steering wheel tilt/telescope vs Avalon manual. Not a biggie but with the memory function we don't have to change manually each time we change drivers.
2nd Lexus had park assist which beeps when approaching objects front or real (like poles or guard rails when parking. Avalon not an option at any price or package period.
3rd Lexus was instantly comfortable, quiet and roomy (2013 increased to 111 inch wheel base same as Avalon) for rear seat room, color combinations, while subjective added to the roomy feel. The Avalon definitely is smaller than the 2005, the salesman tried to explain there was more distance between our bodies and the doors for the side curtain airbags, but overall it was more cramped side by side, and the salesman offered without our comment 1st that they had reduced the back seat leg room, fore to aft.
4th and this was the defining issue, was the overall ride. The Toyota salesman tried hard to sell the feel of the road, etc, etc. but he admitted after we discussed the deal, that he said to himself "OH SH*T" when I told my wife to take a side road that I knew had rough pavement that the Lexus handled flawlessly. The Avy seats felt hard like sitting on a board, the ride was harsh and every uneven surface transmitted itself into the ride. Both were quiet and responsive but the ride and smaller inside room were the killers.
While we decided privately without the salesman around, my wife that loved her AVY and wouldn't trade it unless she got all the aforementioned bells and whistles said she was so sad at what they did to the Avalon for 2013. Not the grill thing, not the interest rate/pricing, but how they had abandoned the things that made the AVY what it has always been about.
Once we finished the deal, the Toyota dealer could not match the deal on the Lexus, I even gave then the numbers from the other dealer but there was too much for them to overcome, not to mention the Lexus as more than the Toyota standard 3 year 36K mile warranty (Lexus is 4 Yr) and with the addins Lexus offered Toyota was not willing to take such a skinny profit.
That and the fact that the AVY could not provide the options my wife felt were her deal breakers made our decision easy. My wife for the 1st time ever is excited and loves the new Lexus even though we won't have it for 2 weeks (just coming into port on the 8th of August, another positive the Lexus is built in Japan to their controlled high standards) which if the wife is happy then I'm delirious because if there is ever anything wrong, this was her decision more than mine.
Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to try to provide a recent objective comparison, the experience with both brands, dealers and cars, and other than MSRP, rates, and options without getting to the specific offers, which again depends on negotiation skills, dealer cooperation and approach to sales, not to get into final price. I wanted to show value, real and perceived, because everyone values different aspects of a vehicle with differing importance. I was very surprised that I was able to negotiate a deal on the Lexus (and had never purchased a car from this dealer before) that the Toyota dealer, who I have purchased 5 cars from since 2003 (they have 8 different car lines) could not match, not even taking the issues with ride into consideration.
A couple of additional comments: All things being equal, Lexus dealers will treat you and your car *much* better when you go in for service. Some adjust their rate schedule accordingly, but they seem to be polite -- maybe obsequious -- and should offer you a "free" loaner, wash and perhaps detail your car without extra charge, etc. (Based on my experience as owner of an Avalon and an ES330.)
Once you know what car and options you want, however, you can nearly always get a better deal by getting online quotes from sites like this one or others and planning to buy at the end of a given month, perhaps quarter, to increase the chances of a fleet manager offering a better deal in order to make or exceed a quota for that period. I verified this personally when I bought my wife an Accord Coupe several years ago.
Finally, speaking of the Accord, several Avy fans on this forum have mentioned the redesigned 2013 Accord in a positive light. The loaded "Touring" version (not like the Avy Touring model) may be more like the old (2012) Avalon than the 2013 Avalon is, in terms of room, comfort, features, etc... with considerably better handling. If I were in the market today, I would certainly take the wife for a test drive before taking delivery of the new ES, if for no other reason than to satisfy my curiosity.
PS: My experience with the local Honda dealer is equivalent to that at the Toyota dealer: The service departments are adequate but they all overcharge and try to upsell unneeded services. They do the same at the Acura dealer (we replaced the Accord with an Acura TSX) and, to be candid, at Lexus, too, but Lexus provides the best "customer experience". At Acura, they wash the car but don't dry it. What's with that?
PPS: I was shocked to read, in the latest Consumer Reports, that they found the new Chevy Impala superior to the new Avalon. I'm skeptical, but again, I'd drive one if I were in the market for a new car today. And, if money is no issue, one word: Tesla.
Good job om the comparison.
The new Avalon is about the same size as a new Honda Accord inside and the trunk is also similar. The V6 Accord with Nav sells at 7.5k less than a Limited so compare cars if you would consider a Honda.
After 15 years, 3 Avalons ('99, '04, '07) and over 300k combined trouble free miles... our '07 Limited is gone. Six years is enough, we are too old to worry about what might go wrong as we travel. But other than the recall for the oil line it was a perfect car, it gets no better. Local dealers would not negotiate as you say, the new ones apparently are expensive, or the dealers are selling them all rapidly, or both.
Again, your experience and impressions were identical to ours.....
In July 2013, 5,569 (43,040 YTD 2013) Avalons were sold, as compared to 1,690 (18,341 YTD 2012) Avalons for July 2012. I don't own or prefer either generation, but a bit hard pressed to believe "almost universally, NOBODY likes their 13..."
As to Lexus ES, it is 6,089 for July 2013, and 3,759 for 2012. For both, it seems the 2013 new model has been a big hit.
The redesigned 2005 Avalon sold over 95,000 units and another 88K in 2006. I'd be surprised if this model can beat that.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve