What Will Be a Future Classic?

fezo · December 2008

That PAckard is scary!

I've always figured the guy who designed the Edsel must have moved over to Pontiac. That center nose thing went on for quite a bit at Pontiac.

hpmctorque · January 2009

"Was this supposed to be a merger of equals as well?"

The LeBaron-Maserati (can't recall the exact name of that model) was more of a licensing deal or business arrangement between Lee Iacocca and the then majority owner of Maserati. I believe the surname name of the latter person was DeTomaso.

The idea was to provide Chrysler with a luxury model, in the hope of providing the Chrysler brand with a halo effect.

uplanderguy · January 2009

That Packard Predictor is prominently displayed at the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend, Indiana. While its size and styling features are oversized and cartoonish, I still think it's a neat one-off.

I've never seen these particular pictures. I wonder where they were taken at. They don't look like any Packard factory buildings I've seen in Detroit...but then I've only really ever seen the front of the old plant and offices at 1580 East Grand Boulevard, Detroit (would highly recommend not driving down there today!).

Bill

uplanderguy · January 2009

The '68 big Pontiacs are the last ones I like a lot. I like Bonnevilles better than Grand Prix models...you could still get buckets and console, but they had the neater (IMHO) fastback roofline.

That Verduro Green sure was popular, but I could never stand it. Looks like an olive! Funny, usually you saw the same colors, but with different names, across the GM brand spectrum in any given model year, but I don't remember this green on anything else other than '68 Pontiacs. Does anybody else?

I made the Edsel comparison to my first college roommate's '68 Bonneville Brougham four-door hardtop one time many years ago. He was offended, but later conceded a similarity after he'd looked at some Edsel pictures.

Bill

hpmctorque · January 2009

While the debate in this discussion about how to categorize such K-car offshoots as the '80s Voyager/Caravan turbi-4 minivans and Chrysler Mark Cross LeBaron T & C woody convert may still elicit opinions, the February '09 issue of Collectible Automobile suggests that the PT Cruiser convertible is a "future collectible" candidate.

I agree with Shifty, that the K-car derivatives mentioned above are not classics, nor will they ever achieve that status. Neither will any PT Cruiser, for that matter. However, I don't disagree with Collectible Automobile on the Cruiser convert; it may, in time, become a collectible. Then, again, it may not. Time will tell.

I'd classify those '80s Mopar twins as collectibles, though. Why? As a first attempt to inject performance in a minivan, and as a car that revived the convertible (after Detroit had discontinued them, in the '70s, and many had given the open top concept up for dead), they are innovative and interesting enough, and rare enough, to earn the respect of being something more than just old cars.

While the first mass produced (76,000+ manufactured between '05-'08, according to Collectible Automobile) retro convertible shares some of those same qualities, it's too early to predict whether it will garner enough interest to become collectible.

andre1969 · January 2009

I've always figured the guy who designed the Edsel must have moved over to Pontiac. That center nose thing went on for quite a bit at Pontiac.

Interestingly, the guy who was responsible for the split grille on Pontiacs, which evolved into a beak in later years, went over to Ford! His name was Semon Knudsen, but he went by the nickname "Bunkie". And I can understand why! :surprise:

Bunkie was responsible for putting the beak on the 1970 T-bird, and his influence could also be seen in the 1970 Ford Galaxie XL. The cheaper Galaxies had a fairly plain, flat front-end, but hidden-headlight XL was showing a bit of a central theme. It would become more pronounced in 1970-72. For 1973 it was toned down a bit, and by 1975 had evolved into one of those stereotypical, pretentious, upright mock-Mercedes grilles that were all the rage at the time.

andre1969 · January 2009

Funny, usually you saw the same colors, but with different names, across the GM brand spectrum in any given model year, but I don't remember this green on anything else other than '68 Pontiacs. Does anybody else?

I've found a paint supply website that has tons of paint chips scanned in, at: http://www.tcpglobal.com/autocolorlibrary/

And it looks like that Verduro Green was a Pontiac-only color. The paint chip says that it was also offered in 1967 as a spring special color. Now Oldsmobile lists a "jade gold poly", and Buick calls it "olive gold poly". The color is #43794 for both, and it looks kind of blackish-green to me. Pontiac's "verdoro green" is a different #43745.

I don't think it's a bad color, but you're right, a bit too olive. I tend to like the light silvery greens they used back then, or the darker forest greens, but that "verduro" doesn't do much for me, either way. If on that fateful day in 1994 when I saw a '67 Catalina convertible sitting at a little buy-here/pay-here lot north of Baltimore, had it been that shade of green, rather than the pale creme it was, I still would have ended up buying it!

andre1969 · January 2009

just browsing around those paint chips, I notice that "Verdoro Green" made a comeback in 1969-1970 on Pontiacs. However, it's a different item, #2095, so perhaps it's a slightly different hue. When I was a little kid, my grandparents' neighbors had a 1970 Executive 4-door that was a dark green. Might have been that Verdoro, but there was also a dark "Pepper Green" offered that year. I think the Pepper green is more what I'd call "Forest green", though.

My grandparents had a 1972 Impala in what we always called "Forest Green", probably because if you take a Crayola 64 crayon box, Forest was the closest color! Looking at the paint chip though, I see they have two dark greens. One's called "Spring Green", and the other is "Sequoia Green". I think theirs was the Spring. It was a beautiful car. When I was a little kid, I asked them to hang onto it so I could have it for my first car when I turned 16! They laughed, because at the rate it was rusting, it probably wouldn't have made it until then!

fintail · January 2009

I am skeptical the PT ragtop will ever be anything to attract interest. It's not exactly pretty or cool. The K-car ragtops have at least a goofy retro aura to them now (and the Jon Voight/Planes, Trains, and Automobiles connection can't hurt)...I don't see the PT having that in 20 years.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Well there have been a FEW cases of cars that were regarded as rather ugly (as is the PT Cruiser convertible IMO) finally being accepted after many decades of abuse. The Chrysler Air Flow comes to mind, and some models can be quite valuable now.

What seems to happen is that the things that offended the eye at the time the car was built become (interestingly) unnoticed by the eyes of the future.

With the Edsel, it seems like our eyes are still sensitive to the ugliness, but somehow we have forgiven the Chrysler Air Flow, the '59 Cadillac, the '58 Oldsmobile, etc. Now they are "camp" (or whatever the new term is for IRONY IN DESIGN).

Of course, ANY open car will generally be saved by someone, if it is not too badly deteriorated.

So I'm predicting that PT Cruiser convertibles will be saved if they are nice survivors, but not restored. I see them as like Rambler American convertibles from the early 60s. Nothing to brag about, not worth that much, but if shiny and nice, too valuable or useful to junk.

So somewhere between a Renault Alliance convertible and a Nash Metro convertible in value and desireability, is my opinion.

andre1969 · January 2009

about the PT Cruiser convertible, is that IMO it's not a "real" convertible. It still has a full, thick, B-pillar with a roll bar. Plus, with the high beltline and the top that still sticks up about 7-8 inches, it just doesn't feel all that open-air.

I wonder if the market would tend to differentiate between a "real" convertible and a "semi" convertible, such as the PT, VW Rabbit/Cabriolet, W-body Cutlass Supreme, and others that I'm sure I'm missing?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Some cars should never be made into convertibles. The PT Cruiser, the VW Rabbit, The Jaguar XJ-S, the Triumph Stag just to name 4. Very awkward looking IMO.

fezo · January 2009

Those are pretty good examples. The PT Cruiser convertible was a mistake from the get go. With the top down it looks like a misshapen Easter basket. The VW Cabrio and its predecessors had the same problem.

Thanks, Andre! I always wondered why Bunkie was called Bunkie. You've certainly removed all doubt on taht one.

That Verduro Green was a pretty funny color for a car. Like they took the idea and started making refrigerators that color. Just when I thought I had blocked out the 70s...

lemko · January 2009

I just Google-mapped 1580 East Grand Boulevard, Detroit. Post-apocalyptic best describes it.

fezo · January 2009

Now that I think of it that Verduro Green Pontiac is something you;d look sharp tooling around in while wearing your leisure suit...

andre1969 · January 2009

Evidently, somebody doesn't mind that Vedoro green color. On these cars, I think it looks okay. But yeah, with that '68 Bonneville pictured above, it looks like the leisure suit crowd would go for it. I think part of the problem is that in 1968, the big Pontiacs were starting to shed their sporty looks, and were getting a bit tacky. The fender skirts that they put on Bonnevilles certainly didn't help, either!

fintail · January 2009

I am sure I am off on this as I am recalling seeing an old photo, but before I was born, my grandfather had a fuselage Chrysler, and it was a green not too different from that. Not the best color for something so huge.

fezo · January 2009

Green is a tough color to pull off on a car. I'm not exactly sure why but it seems to me that you have to get green just right for it work. For some reason red and blue work in all sorts of shades. Yellow is another story altogether.

Of course now white is the most common color on new cars. Not for me, thanks.

fintail · January 2009

Few non-British cars can pull off green, and those that can are mainly from the 70s when green was common.

My mom has a white Taurus with a dark blue interior. My uncle has a white LeSabre with a burgundy interior. You can imagine my opinions of those color schemes. White works on very few cars, and usually cars where just about any color (except for pink, screaming yellow, etc) works. Somehow a white MB with a pano roof is acceptable to me. But I don't like white either - light/silvery blues and greys, please.

berri · January 2009

I'm not fond of white because too often it reeks of fleet car. However, white is a good color to look at a car and decide if you will still like its design down the road since it tends to show design flaws. I did have a white Olds once and have to say it actually didn't show dirt as bad as black or dark blue.

corvette · January 2009

I dislike burgundy interiors, period. Bright red accents can work on a sporty car. I never liked the Corvette's solid red interior (I think it had solid red carpet plus solid red leather seats and door panels, and maybe a black dash).

lemmer · January 2009

One man's opinion

Debate collectibility as you will, but the only one I really would like to own (again) is the 300ZX.

kyfdx · January 2009

Out of all those... only the 911 is a sure thing.. The last air-cooled Porsche is already in high demand..

Out of the others? Maybe the Impala SS..

Ford Lightning? No one cares..

Aztek? Pleeease..

Fiero? Total crap..

Defender? Maybe.. never hear anyone talking about them, though... I see more interest in G-wagens..

300ZX? A pretty great car, but are there any nice ones left? I think they are all drifting machines...

Just one Host's opinion....

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

I'll wade in, too!

Aztek --- never in a million years. Maybe after our sun burns out.

Impala SS -- this is a minor collectible already but it seems to be a waning star even now. Iffy

93-98 Porsche 911 (993) -- definitely, especially once everyone realizes how much better the engine is than the 996 motor.

Fiero -- and when is this supposed to happen? It's been 20 years and you still can't give them away. MAYBE the V-6, 5 speed model will achieve the dizzy heights of the Corvair?

300ZX -- well first the 240Z, now almost 40 years old, will have to wake up. Doubtful the 300ZX will bet past "nice used car" status.

Ford Lightning -- who cares?

kyfdx · January 2009

You left out the Defender.... what say you?

xrunner2 · January 2009

Who the heck is Mike Solowiow? Is that web site a joke? Edsel a classic? Aztek to be a classic? Is he really Mike Shamwow?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

DEFENDER: Actually it's already a collectible, as horrible and nasty a thing as it is. You can get pretty good money for one of these if it's in nice shape and somehow is still running. I've seen prices at $40,000 and up and the money actually changed hands.

Goes to show ya' -- collect-ability has little to do with merit.

People buy what they like, and if you have more lovers than you do objects of their affection, the price is going up.

texases · January 2009

Even bigger laughs from the responses' proposed 'Future Classics':
Subaru SVX
5.7 LT1 Buick Roadmaster and the Cadillac Fleetwood
RX-7 and Supra
1997 to 2001 Acura Integra
1st gen Mazda 6
Marauder, or a late 90s Crown Vic or Grand Marquis with the HPP option
Consulier/Mosler, Vector, Saleen, SSC
Celicas, Integras, Preludes, Supras, 300ZXs, 240SXs, SVXs
Porsche 928
Vette C-4s
4th-gen F-bodies and the 03-04 Mustang Cobra
Dodge SRT4
Lincoln Blackwood
GMC Syclone
etc, etc, etc...

lokki · January 2009

Aztek --- I think that some people will save these hoping for an Edsel-style rehabilitation through revisionist history...so in 10 years you are going to see more nicely preserved examples than you'd expect. People who bought them for nothing and squirreled them away against the day it will make them rich. The male version of collecting an attic full of Beanie Babies.

Impala SS -- I still see these on the streets here in Dallas, but I see more and more of them in terrible condition. They haven't been treated as worth saving by their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd owners - they've been sold as depreciating assets - and the people who have them now are painting them purple and putting spoilers on them. In short, they ain't gettin' no respect.

93-98 Porsche 911 (993) - The race doesn't always go to the swift and Porsches aren't always collectible, but that's the way to bet.

Fiero -- Either these are all stored away in air conditioned garages and never driven, or they're already in the junkyards. The last one I saw was 2 or 3 years ago and it was a one-eyed winker, not a maintained beauty.

300ZX -- For every one of these I see, I see two Supras and the Supras are always in beautiful condition. I think the Supras WILL be collectible and the 300 ZXs will oxidize away.

Ford Lightning -- Other than some striping, what does it have that I can't get by stuffing my own big engine into a pickup truck?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Subaru SVX --- sure, any decade now. Just you wait. Just wait. Soon. No really.

5.7 LT1 Buick Roadmaster and the Cadillac Fleetwood -- maybe in the 22nd century?

RX-7 and Supra -- The RX-7 TT and Supra Turbo yes, the rest of them, no.

1997 to 2001 Acura Integra -- that's a joke, right?

1st gen Mazda 6 -- eh.....no.

Marauder, or a late 90s Crown Vic or Grand Marquis with the HPP option -- doubt it. We'll just get to dislike them a second time.

Consulier/Mosler, Vector, Saleen, SSC -- Some Saleens, yes. Consulier is hideous.

Celicas, Integras, Preludes, Supras, 300ZXs, 240SXs, SVXs -- no, no, no, Supra turbo yes, no, no and no.

Porsche 928 -- last model GTS yes, the others? 30 years and still worth only $6,000.

Vette C-4s -- 22nd century.

4th-gen F-bodies and the 03-04 Mustang Cobra -- who cares?

Dodge SRT4 -- who cares?

Lincoln Blackwood -- maybe for the US Army artillery range?

GMC Syclone -- it's had its chance and not much happening.

jrosasmc · January 2009

How about the 2nd-generation BMW E28 5-Series (1982-88)? Do you think they'll become classics like the 2002s before them? I do have to say, whenever I see a mid-80s 528e advertised for under $2,000 I laugh to myself and wonder how in the world they got so low. Then again, you get high BMW parts and service prices for not a lot of performance, no?

fezo · January 2009

What? My 99 Celica isn't a classic??

That's all right. Just got it because it was pretty cheap and the top came down. The fact that it's as cheap to keep as a Corolla doesn't hurt either.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Old BMW sedans are just nice old used cars and that's what they'll always be IMO. You know, the $2,000 to $6,000 hobbyist crowd, a small niche.

They made a ton of them,and they last a long time, so the supply demand equation is going to depress values for the next 20 years at least.

Fact is, they aren't very interesting cars if you ask me and they suck up your money and attention with very little payback for the owner.

Maybe a 80s era BMW 325 drop-top that's real pretty, in a good color, could bring second-tier money in another ten years.

fezo · January 2009

How to predict a classic.....notable "cars of the year."

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

I can say with pride that I never owned any of them, nor did I ever want to, nor do I ever want to.

fezo · January 2009

I didn't own any either thank goodness.

The one that I drove and rather liked was the Contour which was definitely OK for what it was. Can't even say that about the rest of them.

texases · January 2009

Great list. Here's my take.
True dogs: 1983 Renault Alliance, 1974 Ford Mustang II
Dogs in retrospect: 1971 Chevrolet Vega, 1980 Chevrolet Citation
Near misses: 2002 Ford Thunderbird, 1997 Cadillac Catera, 1985 Merkur XR4Ti
Who cares?: 1997 Chevrolet Malibu, 1990 Lincoln Town Car
Decent car, sales flop: 1995 Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique

berri · January 2009

Yeah, I agree. Those dogs could all be on a worst car list though. The Contour had some teething problems which really killed it I think. Typical Detroit, shove it out before its ready, over due the cost cutting, and then act dumbfounded at the consequences.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

You know the Old Rule: Loved when new, then loved when old; otherwise, forget about it.

I guess you could say that a Love/Hate relationship when new might also translate into some degree of collectibility.

fezo · January 2009

Let's see... some of these you can figure out.....

Bot the Contours and the Thunderbird had a couple of fatal flaws in them. The Contour has early bugs (SURPRISE! Can you say Focus?) and the Thunderbird was pretty enough but built to drive on a highway which really wasn't supposed to be the idea.

The Vega and Citation both got sent out with fatal flaws. The Vega had that godawful aluminum block that let you join the head gasket of the month club, The Citation was supposed to replace the Malibu and wasn't at all ready for something like that. It had too much that was brand new to GM and just had too much of a task staying in one piece. In both cases a nice thought combined with awful execution.

The Malibu and Town Car were just forgettable vehicles.

This of course brings us back to the Alliance and the Mustang II. What on earth were these people thinking? I mean both the manufacturers and even more so the folks that said this is the car of the year!??!? Were there no other nominees in those years? Surely SOMETHING had to be out there! Didn't even have to be good - just not awful. Heck, they somehow managed to never name the Pacer as car of the year.

Speaking of that I actually had a friend who ahd a Pacer and replaced it when it dies with an Alliance. Needles to say he didn't ask me about buying cars...

corvette · January 2009

Typical Detroit, shove it out before its ready, over due the cost cutting, and then act dumbfounded at the consequences.

Yep. I remember when Dodge introduced the Charger. It was highly touted that they all came standard with a 3.5 liter V6, ABS, stability control, and side airbags. Then, the next year, Dodge introduced a version with a woefully inadequate 2.7 liter V6, no ABS, no stability control, no side airbags (and goodness knows what else they deleted). This is progress? This new, fleet-friendly model still had the triple-flashing turn signals, which were probably pulled from the Mercedes parts bin.

xrunner2 · January 2009

Because of Car and Driver accolades, I too test drove a Contour and did like its handling. But, that was all. The interior looked cheap and was tight. Took a pass on it and bought a new Honda.

Owning 2 Hondas for 11 years at time of driving Contour, my standards were higher. Other downsides to a possible Contour purchase were some negative experiences with previous Fords.

boomchek · January 2009

still had the triple-flashing turn signals, which were probably pulled from the Mercedes parts bin.

Many parts on the LX platform cars (Magnum, Charger, and 300) are from the Mercedes Parts bin. There's more parts shared in other cars too.

You're correct the turn signals, cruise control, and wiper stalks are straight out of a Benz. The EVIC (electronic vehicle info centre) on those cars and the Grand Cherokees that scrolls through fuel economy, programmable door locks, etc are also from Mercedes.

Not to mention a whole car was pillaged from the Mercedes Benz obsolete parts bin and rebadged a Chrysler.

Anyone care to remember the Crossfire? It will probably have the same "classic" status as the modern T Bird.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

I knew immediately that the Crossfire was doomed. WAY too expensive for a Chrysler coupe of modest power and questionable styling. You are right, they made the same *exact* errors as Ford did with the new T-Bird.

fintail · January 2009

I remember when the Crossfire first came out, I went down the local dealer to look at it. It had a $10K ADM... I am pretty sure I laughed out loud.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Consider the grim reality that someone probably paid it.

fintail · January 2009

I remember they were doing the same for the PT Cruiser too...in 2000 a loaded one would bring nearly 30K!

kyfdx · January 2009

Couple of member recently report paying $17K-$18K for new '08 Crossfires... with $38K MSRPs... :surprise:

fezo · January 2009

The bonus version of the Worst cars of the year list. Same cars but in the Car and Driver version you get all the reader comments. Some are great! Heck, there's even a guy in there claiming that the Mustang II wasn't bad. Yes it was. Monstrously so.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2009

Yeah and there are people who think Hitler was misunderstood, too. :P

What Will Be a Future Classic?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles