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Ford Freestyle CVT Transmissions

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Comments

  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    Few vehicles have the combination of internal space and MPG that the Freestyle (20/27 city/highway MPG figures) has. Acceleration is adequate at 0-60 in 8.5 seconds. A good 6-speed will get as good of an MPG figure as our CVT. If you could get the low-friction Camry 4-cylinder in the Freestyle, you would be able to get about 2 MPG more, but at the expense of acceleration (probably 10 sec 0-60), and not many want that. Note that Honda's mini-van, with a displacement-on-demand V6, about equals the Freestyle, albeit using some fancy tech. As for the new Ford 3.5L V6, I don't think it can equal the current 3.0L V6's fuel economy without using direct injection and/or variable displacement tricks. That being said, variable cam timing in the 3.5L helps get it closer to the current 3.0L. As an example of some great engineering in a 3.6L V6, notice the GMC Acadia's EPA highway MPG of 26, pretty good in a heavy, larger vehicle (Tahoe size).
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    I'll bet that 3.6L will complain liberally about pushing all that weight though, and the final drive is fairly low, meaning trailering could suffer a bit. Ford's 3.5L is pretty good considering it's design is very simple in comparison to it's competitors.
  • tim156tim156 Member Posts: 308
    If you've been happy with the car pay the $1700 and keep it. Things break. It's a bummer when the expensive things break.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    I recently drove the T-Rex after owning a FS for a couple of years. I did not like the driving experience. I can't really pinpoint why, but the shifts seemed a bit abrupt.

    Maybe it is just that I'm used to no shifts at all (CVT)!

    But in any case, I decided to go with a more fuel efficient vehicle, since I seldom used the 7 passenger capability.

    The dealer had 40 - yes, 40 - Escape / Mariner / Tribute hybrids on the lot, ready for delivery.

    They had 3 T-Rex, and the only Limited was in black. I drove an SEL, which didn't even have the aux air conditioning. Unbelievable.

    I can see why the car isn't selling. I was shopping at Galpin Ford, the largest volume dealer in the world.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Maybe it is just that I'm used to no shifts at all (CVT)!

    Just a correction . . . you're used to LOTS of SMALL shifts. You'd hate something that never shifted. ;)

    It's just that there are so many small shifts (instead of a few big ones) that you don't NOTICE the shifting.

    Long live the CVT!
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Just a correction . . . you're used to LOTS of SMALL shifts. You'd hate something that never shifted. "

    CVT = CONTINUOUSLY Variable Transmission. There are no shifts at all, the power is continuously sent to the wheels.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    CVT = CONTINUOUSLY Variable Transmission. There are no shifts at all, the power is continuously sent to the wheels.

    "variation" = Shift.

    If there's no shifting, there's no variation in gear ratio.

    If the gear ratio CHANGES, then it must be SHIFTING. It's just doing it in very, very small increments. Almost like "continuous". ;)
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "If the gear ratio CHANGES, then it must be SHIFTING. It's just doing it in very, very small increments. Almost like "continuous". "

    It is a matter of semantic in some respects, but I think the distinction is important.

    Every point along the continuum is a ratio, but there are infinite possibilities within the minimum and maximum values. There are no defined points where the transmission "shifts" to a different ratio. The conventional definition of an AT "shift" is where the ratio changes. This happens continuously with the CVT.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    My '05 FS FWD can get close to 30mpg on the highway if I keep the speed at 65mph, and I average in the low 20s with mixed driving...what are you expecting to get with the hybrids you're looking at and do you think it's worth all the money you'll lose when you trade in the FS for the new vehicle?
  • humblecoderhumblecoder Member Posts: 125
    I recently drove the T-Rex after owning a FS for a couple of years. I did not like the driving experience. I can't really pinpoint why, but the shifts seemed a bit abrupt.

    Maybe it is just that I'm used to no shifts at all (CVT)!


    Not sure what you mean by "abrupt" exactly. I've driven the TX for a total of 6 weeks now, and I have noticed a bit more shifting that I am used to. I attribute it to the fact that I went from driving a 4-speed to a 6-speed, so I am not used to the 2 additional shifts to get it into the highest gear. It isn't annoying by any means, just an observation. When it does shift, it is very smooth, and the extra gears means that I can cruise at 65 mph with the tach under 2000 rpm.

    The dealer had 40 - yes, 40 - Escape / Mariner / Tribute hybrids on the lot, ready for delivery.

    They had 3 T-Rex, and the only Limited was in black. I drove an SEL, which didn't even have the aux air conditioning. Unbelievable.

    I can see why the car isn't selling. I was shopping at Galpin Ford, the largest volume dealer in the world


    Dealers around here don't seem to stock a lot of them, either. I think it is a chicken-and-egg type thing. The TX doesn't sell so dealer don't stock them, but if they don't stock them, people are less likely to buy them!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Every point along the continuum is a ratio, but there are infinite possibilities within the minimum and maximum values. There are no defined points where the transmission "shifts" to a different ratio. The conventional definition of an AT "shift" is where the ratio changes. This happens continuously with the CVT.

    Exactly . . . the CVT is (or at least can) continually adjust the gear ratio . . . thus, it is continually SHIFTING.

    It's just that it's shifts are so small as to seem imperceptible, as compared to the larger shifts made by a normal automatic tranny.
  • saabturboidsaabturboid Member Posts: 178
    No, a CVT does not shift. A CVT is actually a belt that moves up and down cones that get bigger and/or smaller depending on the direction the belt moves. There are NO shift points, simply an infinite range of gear ratios. To say the transmission shifts is incorrect.

    - Chad
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I thought Ford used a chain for their CVT?
  • saabturboidsaabturboid Member Posts: 178
    It is a steel mesh belt. A chain rides on sprockets while a belt is free to move independently.

    - Chad
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    It is definitely a stainless steel belt.

    And.. by definition, a CVT is incapable of "shifting" gears. It has none to "shift".
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    No, a CVT does not shift.

    Please define "shift".

    I define "shift" as a change in gear ratio.

    Thus, by definition, ANY transmission (including a CVT) "shifts".

    In fact, if you didn't need to shift, you wouldn't NEED a transmission.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    And.. by definition, a CVT is incapable of "shifting" gears. It has none to "shift".

    It is shifting the gear ratio. Just because it's not shifting GEARS to do it doesn't mean that it's not shifting.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "It is shifting the gear ratio. Just because it's not shifting GEARS to do it doesn't mean that it's not shifting."

    This is just like trying to get to the bottom of the whole is it a wagon or is it a cuv debate...

    LOL....
  • bdymentbdyment Member Posts: 573
    The full name of the transmission says it all---continuously variable transmission--CVT. It is shifting, almost on a continuous basis--the ratios change as the belt changes ratios on the pulleys.
  • bruneau1bruneau1 Member Posts: 468
    conventional transmissions "shift"; cvt transmissions continuously "adjust". Is that better?
  • bdymentbdyment Member Posts: 573
    I think that explains it.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    conventional transmissions "shift"; cvt transmissions continuously "adjust". Is that better?

    Nope . . I think continually SHIFT is better . . . that's why I used the phrase. ;)
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    This is just like trying to get to the bottom of the whole is it a wagon or is it a cuv debate

    That one's simple . . . it's a CUV wagon. :P
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I don't like the use of "shift" referring to CVT's. When discussing tranny performance, the feel of the shift is very important. Saying that a transmission is continuously shifting is not complementary in a review because it implies repeated hesitating and stuttering. In the colloquial sense, shift is an abrupt change. In a CVT one doesn't feel any sense of shifting at all so saying it's always shifting leaves the wrong impression.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "In a CVT one doesn't feel any sense of shifting at all so saying it's always shifting leaves the wrong impression."

    This all got started when I described my T-Rex test drive, and I'll reiterate - I vastly preferred the FS to the T-Rex so far as "shifting" is concerned. There is nothing like a CVT...
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    When discussing tranny performance, the feel of the shift is very important.

    Indeed, it is. And a lot of very minute "shifts" feels far better than just a couple of LARGE jolting shifts.

    Saying that a transmission is continuously shifting is not complementary in a review because it implies repeated hesitating and stuttering

    Only to the uninformed. ;)

    In a CVT one doesn't feel any sense of shifting

    And that's the magic of it . . . you GET the shifting without FEELING it.

    so saying it's always shifting leaves the wrong impression.

    Does a 6-speed transmission shift more frequently than a 4-speed transmission? (I would say yes). Does it feel more SMOOTH than a 4-speed tranny? (I'd say yes). What's so confusing about it? More smaller shifts = smoother shifting!
  • stmssstmss Member Posts: 206
    The variable transmission is simply infinite number of shifts with shifts so small they are undetectable. Basically as you increase shifts to infinity you get this transmission. The first derivative, in mathematical (calculus) sense. Just like acceleration is the first derivative of velocity. A 'gear' in the standard sense has a constant applied while the CVT has a 'variable' applied. Hence when you have a 'number of gears' like a convential transmission and apply the first derivative, you get a CVT. A mathematician may be able to explain this more elegantly.

    So - correct - more gears = smoother shifts. Just like accelerating your car is smoother than increasing velocity in constant intervals (10, 20, 30 mph etc).

    Rather than building 6, 8, 10 ... speed transmissions - Ford and others simply went to the end point. Same as snowmobiles have been since they were invented.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    A CVT transmission with no gears to shift cannot shift anything.

    Shifting "gears" is just short-hand for shifting "gear ratio". Which is the same thing as shifting "leverage".

    If a CVT isn't shifting anything, it has no purpose in life. :D
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    The full name of the transmission says it all---continuously variable transmission--CVT. It is shifting, almost on a continuous basis--the ratios change as the belt changes ratios on the pulleys.

    Bingo. An automatic transmission is just using gears to shift the input/ouput ratio. The CVT shifts this ratio by using pulleys/belts. And it does it in a lot more smaller increments.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    A mathematician may be able to explain this more elegantly.

    I don't need a mathematician to explain it to me. I'm quite well-versed in the calculus, since I'm engineer.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I'm quite well-versed in the calculus, since I'm [an] engineer.

    You haven't lived until you've been through partial differential equations, tensor analysis and point set topology. :P

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • stmssstmss Member Posts: 206
    I too am an engineer, just don't usually admit it. ;)

    In that case, if everyone understands the the mathematics, then I don't understand the debate.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm no engineer.

    When I drive a manual tranny or downshift my automatic or cause my derailleur to move my bike chain, I'm shifting.

    When I hop on a snowmachine or steer my buddy's outboard or sit at my sewing machine, there's (usually) a belt from the engine to the track or prop or needle mechanism. I give it gas and it goes - I back off the gas and it slows. There's no "shifting." I'm thinking my tablesaw would act the same way if it had a rheostat instead of an on/off button.

    The marketing people have figured it out - since many people expect their cars to "shift" some CVT transmissions have been configured to simulate shift points and bumps to reassure those drivers.
  • stmssstmss Member Posts: 206
    derailleur to move my bike chain My chain usually falls off :P

    But yes, there are some technologies people just don't want to deal with and don't accept so they have to be simulated back to what they are most familiar with. I think many people would also be surprised that their car may not have a throttle cable either.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    You haven't lived until you've been through partial differential equations, tensor analysis and point set topology

    I've had partial differential equations.

    Here's my summary of engineering mathematics:

    Calculus 1: Anything can be differentiated (OK, the function has to be smooth and continuous)

    Calculus 2: A lot of things can be integrated, though it's helpful to know which trick to apply when

    Calculus 3: You can do some neat volume calculations with integrals

    Differential Equations: Some of these are actually solveable. Laplace who?

    Partial DiffEq: Hey, we can solve about 4 of these. ;)

    tensor analysis and point set topology

    I'll leave that (along with proving that 1+1 = 2) to the math majors. :P
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I give it gas and it goes - I back off the gas and it slows. There's no "shifting."

    You just don't FEEL it, because it happens in such tiny increments.

    If there were no shifting, you'd always be in the same gear (ratio). ;)

    The marketing people have figured it out - since many people expect their cars to "shift" some CVT transmissions have been configured to simulate shift points and bumps to reassure those drivers.

    Always the IDIOTS who don't understand the concept at ALL. The whole POINT of a CVT is that you don't have to FEEL the shifts, dangit! :P

    Besides, didn't Nissan have a commercial that extolled the benefits of the CVT in the Murano? Something with a woman trying to put on lipstick or something, waiting for the "shifts" before she could start?
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I think many people would also be surprised that their car may not have a throttle cable either.

    It doesn't ?!?!?!? ;)

    Fly-by-wire is nice!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    happens in such tiny increments

    Engineers always break things down into black/white, on/off, yes/no.

    Some of us view everything as shades of gray along a continuum. A handy word for a CVT, no gear of which can be distinguished from neighboring gears except by arbitrary division (to slaughter the definition a bit ;) ).
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I'll leave that (along with proving that 1+1 = 2) to the math majors.

    I wouldn't let a math major anywhere near my car! :)

    Who would ever have thought that we would get stuck on the semantics of "continuously variable" in an automotive discussion? I think we all know what it means.

    I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere starting with "A mathematician, an engineer and a physicist are examining a CVT ..." :blush:

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "Who would ever have thought that we would get stuck on the semantics of "continuously variable" in an automotive discussion? I think we all know what it means."

    where's vad or albook when you need them, we'll get to the bottom of this???

    lol

    I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere starting with "A mathematician, an engineer and a physicist are examining a CVT ..."

    pass out the pocket protector's already...
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Engineers always break things down into black/white, on/off, yes/no.

    But that's the easy way to think of it . . you just keep making the pieces smaller and smaller and smaller . . . . until you "approach the limit" of infinitely many infinitesimal pieces. ;)

    Some of us view everything as shades of gray along a continuum. A handy word for a CVT, no gear of which can be distinguished from neighboring gears except by arbitrary division (to slaughter the definition a bit

    I'd say we're close enough, considering it took mathematicians about 150 years to precisely define what Leibniz and Newton came up with when they "invented" the calculus. ;)

    Or should we define it more properly, like "for any given ratio epsilon, there exists a delta that blah blah blah blah . . " :P
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Who would ever have thought that we would get stuck on the semantics of "continuously variable" in an automotive discussion? I think we all know what it means.

    I think it's a bit more than semantics, though, when somebody says the CVT "doesn't shift". That's NOT the same thing as you can't FEEL it shift.

    They remind me of Zeno (ancient mathematician) who had several paradoxes. One of which was that an arrow in flight can't really be moving because at any moment in time, it is "frozen" at that position, thus proving it's not moving.

    The very fact that the CVT can go from a minimum (gear) ratio to a maximum (gear) ratio means that is MUST "shift" (change) from one (gear) ratio to another. Even if you have a hard time telling it.

    Actually, I submit that you CAN tell it, because the rate at which the gear ratio changes in a CVT is somewhat proportional to how hard you're pressing on the gas pedal.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere starting with "A mathematician, an engineer and a physicist are examining a CVT ..."

    To the optimist, the glass if half full

    To the pessimist, the glass if half empty

    To the engineer, the glass is overdesigned. :P
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    To the engineer, the glass is overdesigned.

    George Carlin agrees: “Some people think of the glass as half full. Some people think of the glass as half empty. I think of the glass as too big.”

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    A physicist says the glass is neither. It is completely full, half with water, the other half with air.

    An analyst says it is neither, it simply contains 50% of its potential capacity.

    A realist says it doesan't matter. It's just gonna have to be washed later anyways.

    A mathematician cannot decide since the glass can never be EXACTLY half full or half empty (except in the limit).

    To the politician, somebody has taken half the contents of the glass, and something must be done about it!
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    ... and to most American's, they'll wish it was half again bigger at half the price...
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    A mathematician cannot decide ...

    A mathematician would say it's topologically equivalent to a Ford Freestyle and try to drive off with it like we did with this topic! :shades:

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Tidester-
    You know, we went through this last year when Edmunds decided to break up forums into different topics instead of letting people determine where they wanted to post. There were fewer topics, but a bit more of a story line.

    I point this out because you moved my "I prefer Freestyle over T-Rex" post from the Taurus-X forum to this one - but the post was really about the T-Rex, not CVT. Can we copy this message back to the Freestyle / T-Rex forum?

    Not only that, but I note that the hosts keep having to tell people to post in an existing forum, which is a bit ironic when you think about it - we went from a very few forums to many, many forums, of which quite a number have 2 messages - the original and the host reply to post in a different forum.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I'm not sure which post you are referring to but go ahead and repost over there.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
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