Nissan Altima Engine Failures

scttcrssmn · February 2008

E.D. in Sunny Florida,

Thanks for all the detailed postings and pictures. Its nice to have you here, knowing the inside of this Nissan engine and the problems with the oil consumption.

I have an 02 Altima I purchased new and now has 100,000 miles. Have religiously changed oil and filter between 3-4,000 miles. Have had all the recalls done at the dealership when notified. Car was good to me for five years, requiring routine maintenance and normal wear parts. No significant oil consumption.

Mileage got into mid 90s in late 2007, car started to run rough occasionally, like when theres condensation in the fuel. Problem was intermittent. Used isopropyl in fuel, but that didnt fix it. Also, the heater started blowing cool when idle, which made me think low water or weak water pump. Took to my Goodyear mechanic, a good guy and capable mechanic. Looked at computer codes, suggested changing gas cap to clear the codes and radiator cap to see if that improved the heat . He also backflushed the heater core and it got better for a few thousand miles, but it still continued to run rough occasionally for short bursts of time.

Then the excess oil consumption started. Maybe 1 quart / 1,000 at first. Took back to Goodyear January, 2008. Replaced PCV valve, but no change in consumption. Back to Goodyear again February, checked water for trace carbon, but zero. Checked oil for presence of water but none. Compression check yielded 149, 151, 150, 149 which he thought was OK (do you agree?). Did leak down test and pressure held good. Pulled the plugs but they were dry, with a little white powder residue. Replaced plugs. Mechanic found oil in line leading from PCV valve so he replaced the valve again in the unlikely event that the new one he installed the first time was bad.

Car is now using about 1 quart / 200 miles. Mechanic thinks he should remove valve cover to see if oil return ports are clogged, allowing oil to accumulate in top side of engine, filling to the point where the PCV is located and allowing oil to escape there.

I decided to call the local Nissan dealer to ask the Service Manager if this problem has presented with other cars. She indicated that she has seen a couple with excess oil consumption, that the cat was the problem causing the cylinder walls to score. When I asked her if a compression check should confirm her suspicion, she indicated that it may not (what do you think?). I dont understand this, but shes the mechanic. She said that if the cat was indeed my problem, a rebuilt engine was the only fix.

So, my question to you  is there any merit in pulling the valve cover and checking the oil return ports, or is it a foregone conclusion that I have the dreaded catalytic converter problem?

I called Nissan North America to see what they know, but they wont talk to me until I have the problem diagnosed by their dealer. They said they would entertain Goodwill Assistance, but they needed dealer-provided diagnostics first.

Your advice, sir?

electricdesign · February 2008

That was certainly an interesting post. I will try to sort some of this out for you, but some of the information you gave conflicts.
Since you seem to have read all my previous posts, I may refer to them during this post. Your oil comsumption of 1 quart in 200 miles is horrendous, a very serious problem. Referring back to my posts about my daughters 2002 Altima 2.5S, I just recently confirmed that you oil consumption now is about 1 quart in about 3000 miles, which is very good. Before I worked on the engine and had the head rebuilt, it was consuming about 1 qt every 1500 miles. I am now supposing that the oil consumption has improved due to having the head rebuilt and having new seals installed on the valve guides. I think that most of the oil was being sucked past the valve guides. The valve guides and springs sit in "pockets" in the head that hold oil, so the top of the valve guide with the seal basically run submersed in motor oil. So it is my belief that the valve guide seals are critical on this engine.
Another thing that struck me about your engine was that the cylinder compressions were so close together, that is a good thing. They seemed a little low to me, but otherwise good. The eveness of the readings is very important.
Pulling the valve cover is a very simple issue, just a few screws to take out and a few hoses to remove, and a few wires to take loose. Put it back on with a new gasket to prevent leaks.
You gave a lot of good information, but here's a few things to closely check.
1. Check the cooling system for any sign of external or internal leaks by doing the following:
A. Do you have to add any coolant to the coolant resivor? I have suspisions about your cooling system because of the occasional miss and also because of the heater not heating. It acts like gas bubbles are getting into you cooling system, the gas rises to the top and into the heater hoses, making less or no heat. It possible for gas to seep or leak from the engine into the cooling system, and when that happens a small amount of coolant goes into the cylinder causing a temporary miss in the engine, usually on a cold start and lasts a short time.
B. With the engine running, watch the coolant resivor for any trace of bubbles rising inside the tank. I was able to find the combustion leak on my daughters car by doing this. If you see small bubbles that continue to rise in the coolant resivior, it may mean that combustion gas is moving out of the radiator and into the coolant resivior. These head gaskets are very prone to leakage and the heads are very prone to warp if they have ever been overheated.
2. Check out the exhaust system completely. With engine running be sure you get plenty of exhaust gas out the tailpipes. This will confirm that either of the Cats is not clogged up. When the exhaust is cool, disconnect the exhaust pipe from the precat, at the spring connector connections, and inspect the inside of the precat, looking through the bottom opening. You should see a clean unbroken screen. If not, the Cat is shot. If the lower screen is busted or gone, then the material may have moved down the exhaust pipe to the 2nd cat, and you would be getting a service engine soon light that says bad cat. Unbolt the precat and the exhaust manifold assembly from the engine head, hold it upside down over a clean table and shake it to see if anythihng comes out. Nothing should come out. If anything comes out, the cat is probably shot. If the screens are busted in the cat and the material has moved out of the cat, you can clean out both the cats to make sure that they are unplugged. If you put it together this way, the engine will run fine, but the service engine soon light will remain lit, due to the non-performance of the cat. The precat is monitored, the 2nd cat is not monitored.
3. Please post what codes were displayed.
4. The compressions seems fairly good and even, but the only way to tell the condition of the cylinders is to pull the head, and that is a last resort for now. Please do what you can of what I asked in the preceeding and then we will go from there.
Good Luck,
E.D. in Sunny Florida

boating · February 2008

I have been viewing these boards along with Accord forums, closely watching both cars. My wife is purchasing either an Accord 4 cyl or Altima 4 cyl by early April. Reading these forums on both cars is getting us nervous.

Is the same engine/cat converter set up still used on 08 4 cyl Altimas or has this engine been motified? We tend to keep our cars long term. It would not suprise me if it was the same set up since these cars would be long out of warranty.

Any advise.
Thanks

scttcrssmn · February 2008

E.D - thanks for the reply. I'll answer a little here but will need time to chase the other questions.

I suspected the head gasket at the onset of the oil consumption problem. But I instructed the mechanic to ensure this was the problem before spending the money to replace it. He did the carbon test on the coolant and found zero trace and concluded there was not a head gasket problem. I have added water to the resevoir a couple times in the past weeks, which still points to a head gasket. I will observe for bubbles as you suggets and let you know. The engine has never overheated, at least not yet.

Like you, my mechanic also thought it was a good thing that all four cylinders had compression that was +/- 2 PSI of each other. I'm guessing he used a plug gauge, not a threaded guage, which may explain why the readings are lower than expected. I'll confirm his method and let you know.

My mechanic also mentioned the importance of valve guide seals. If you remember, he would like to open the valve cover to see if I have a plugged oil return port that is causing the oil to accumulate in the top side and leak out the PCV valve (by the way, what do you think of this theory?). He also indicated that the valve guide seals have an umbrella shape, designed to shed oil coming from the top side, and if the oil was accumulating, the oil would rise under the guide seal and possibly escape. This sounds different than your description of the seals, which you indicate is submerged in oil. Can you say if his theory has merit? I've used him for years and he's very reputable, but perhaps he's not seen this engine torn down like you have.

One thing I forgot to mention in the previous post, the engine oil is black, real black. It gets black very quickly, even after a complete change. And it stays black, even though I'm replenishing it with a fresh quart every 200 miles.

How difficult is it to get the precat and exhaust manifold unbolted from the head? In the past, I've had bad luck with head bolts - they are usually pretty stuck and I'm afraid of twisting one off. I'd like to disassemble the precat and inspect it for integrity and see if any material inside is loose. And will the 2nd cat disassemble pretty easily? If either cat is shot, I'll have to replace because PA tests annually for emissions. But I don't want to replace the cat if I've already damaged the cylinder walls badly. I guess I could clean the debris out of the cats and run them "empty" for a while to see if that solves my oil consumption problem before replacing with new cats. I'm a weekend mechanic, more of a do-it-yourselfer, and not sure I should attempt to take the cats apart at home.

And finally, please help me understand how a bad cat causes cylinder wear and oil consumption. Does a clogged cat cause the exhaust and cat chemicals to back-up into the engine? Does that corrode or wear the cylinder walls? Since I'm now using 1 quart / 200 miles, does that sound to you like it's too late to save it? And if I'm burning 1 quart / 200 miles, whether it's from scored cylinders, bad head gasket, or leaky valve guide seals, why don't I have a sooty black carbon buildup at the tail pipe?

Thanks for taking the time to read. Hope your weather is better in FL than here in NW PA.

jd10013 · February 2008

Yes, the 08 altima uses the same QR25DE engine that has been in the altima since 2002. but you need to keep a couple things in mind, if you are seriously interested in an altima.

1, not every altima, actually a pretty small amount, suffer from the oil consumption problem.
2. It is almost exclusive to the 2002 model year
3. The QR25DE engine was first used in 2002. There were, like with anything else new, some issues with it. those issues have been taken care of.
4. then engine itself is solid. its the cat, actually the precat, that was causing the problems.

If your not really interested in the altima, or are just looking for a reason not to buy one, then don't get one. you'll just worry about it all the time. But, If you really like the car, and are really interested in one; I wouldn't let the problems with the first year of the 2002-2006 (3rd generation) redesign featuring a brand new never before used engine keep you from getting one.

electricdesign · February 2008

Thanks for asking about the weather down here, It was really nice today, beautiful blue sky and the high temp today was about 74, and they predict high of 76 this weekend and high of 80 on monday!
I'm really busy tonight, so I'll answer the rest of your questions tomorrow.
Many of the questions that you ask are answered in my previous posts from #75 until now.
I'll address just one issue right now, the valve seals, and this could apply to most engines, but especially to this one. Your mechanic is saying the same thing I said, it's just your interpretation that is different. Yes the valve seals are unbrella shaped, I knew that, and 99.9% of them are, because they fit over and cover the end of the valve guide like an umbrella, this is a very normal and usual fit. But imagine if an umbrella gets submersed in water, it wont do you any good, you'll still get wet! In other words, if you are under water, an umbrella won't do you any good, unless it's seal tight around you. And as I said before, the valves, guides, springs & seals are located in pockets in the head, so the valve seal runs largely under oil, and does shed oil that falls from above it, but most of the oil is running down the sides of the pocket down to the valve guide. This valve guide depends more on the seal itself fitting tightly onto the stem. As the valve seal gets old from age and hardens from the heat, the valve stem slips up and down on the seal and the seal between the valve and valve seal becomes less of a good seal, it gets loose. Once oil can leak between the valve and the valve seal, it can reach the valve guide where vaccum around the intake valve can suck some oil through the valve guide and into the combustion chamber on the intake stroke. It takes a special tool to remove the valve springs from the head, that why it needs to be done by a professional machine shop. The bottom line is you may need valve seals, and the best way to do that is to pll the head off and get it professionally rebuilt like I had mine done, then there is no more problem. I suppose that you looked at all the pictures of the teardown and rebuild of the engine that I linked in previous posts. You can also download those pictures, they will be very helpful if you need to tear down your engine. But before tearing down anything, we need to do all the diagnostics first. I'll answer more later. Yes, be sure the oil drain pockets in the head are clear and open.
More to come soon.
E.D. in Sunny Florida

scttcrssmn · March 2008

Thanks for the info on valve seals.

A little more info for you today. I warmed the engine up today (25 degrees here) to make sure thermostat was open, then opened the water reservoir to watch for bubbling. Had to add water first because it was empty again, indicating either a leak or head gasket, correct? Had the engine running constant at 3,000 RPM, but no sign of bubbles, at least not for the 15 minutes I observed.

Had the oil changed three days ago, so I checked the dipstick today to see its condition. It showed full, but I've only put a few miles on it. However, the oil is black again, so it's being exposed to combustion somewhere. This is the reason my mechanic thinks the oil drain pockets may be plugged. What else do you think could be causing fresh oil to blacken almost immediately after a change?

Sure wish I could figure this out. Don't mind spending the money to replace head gasket and valve seals; just don't want to put it back together only to find out the oil consumption is still bad.

One more item of interest. While I was observing the reservoir for bubbling at 3,000 RPM, after about five minutes, the engine suddenly went to idle RPM but did not idle smoothly. Instead it would run at idle, then run up to 1,300 RPM, then idle again. I thought maybe my prop on the accelerator pedal slipped, but it was firmly in place. I reset the prop, watched for bubbles, five minutes later, the engine did a repeat performance of dropping down to idle. Any idea why it cut out like this?

Thanks for spending the time with this. I appreciate your insights.

electricdesign · March 2008

Going back to some former messeges:

1. "Mileage got into mid 90s in late 2007, car started to run rough occasionally, like when theres condensation in the fuel. Problem was intermittent. Used isopropyl in fuel, but that didnt fix it. Also, the heater started blowing cool when idle, which made me think low water or weak water pump. Took to my Goodyear mechanic, a good guy and capable mechanic. Looked at computer codes, suggested changing gas cap to clear the codes and radiator cap to see if that improved the heat . He also backflushed the heater core and it got better for a few thousand miles, but it still continued to run rough occasionally for short bursts of time." The occasional rough running, heater running cool, and loss of coolant all point to a head gasket leak. You must check out the cooling system as I outlined in my post #214, point #1.
"I warmed the engine up today (25 degrees here) to make sure thermostat was open, then opened the water reservoir to watch for bubbling. Had to add water first because it was empty again, indicating either a leak or head gasket, correct? Had the engine running constant at 3,000 RPM, but no sign of bubbles, at least not for the 15 minutes I observed." You said that right, having to add water to the coolant reservoir is a sure sign of a leak, and if it is not and external leak, then it is likelly a head gasket leak. I found the bubbles with the engine idling, that is the way you should check it. If it is real cold, the fans probalby wont come on anyway, if they do that means the engine reached full temperature, usually about 200 to 202 degrees, then the fans cut off when the temp drops down to about 188 degrees.

2. "Then the excess oil consumption started. Maybe 1 quart / 1,000 at first. Took back to Goodyear January, 2008. Replaced PCV valve, but no change in consumption. Back to Goodyear again February, checked water for trace carbon, but zero. Checked oil for presence of water but none. Compression check yielded 149, 151, 150, 149 which he thought was OK (do you agree?). Did leak down test and pressure held good. Pulled the plugs but they were dry, with a little white powder residue. Replaced plugs. Mechanic found oil in line leading from PCV valve so he replaced the valve again in the unlikely event that the new one he installed the first time was bad. Car is now using about 1 quart / 200 miles. Mechanic thinks he should remove valve cover to see if oil return ports are clogged, allowing oil to accumulate in top side of engine, filling to the point where the PCV is located and allowing oil to escape there." Compression low but even, may be ok. Yes, check oil return holes in the head.

3. "So, my question to you  is there any merit in pulling the valve cover and checking the oil return ports, or is it a foregone conclusion that I have the dreaded catalytic converter problem?" Yes, check oil return holes in the head. And you MUST check the exhaust and Cats as I outlined in my post #214, point #2.

4. "How difficult is it to get the precat and exhaust manifold unbolted from the head? In the past, I've had bad luck with head bolts - they are usually pretty stuck and I'm afraid of twisting one off. I'd like to disassemble the precat and inspect it for integrity and see if any material inside is loose. And will the 2nd cat disassemble pretty easily?" The Precat comes off fairly easily, you need to squirt WD40 on all the bolts and threads that you will need to loosen, to help them come off, the heat shield may be the hardest thing to get off, the little bolts can be tight to get off. Once that is off, use a special oxygen sensor socket to remove both the oxygen sensors, then underneath the car, disconnect the exhaust pipe from the Precat/Exhaust manifold, remove the studs, as it makes removing the exhaust pipe easier. One of the studs was stuck tight and I had to use a torch to heat the area of the manifold near the stud red hot before I could get the stud loose. Once that pipe is loose at the front end, you can unbolt the back end of the exhaust pipe at the bolted flange in front of the muffler (it has 2 bolts with 2 nuts, very tight, use lots of WD40). Remove this pipe, it has the 2nd Cat in this pipe. If this cat is plugged or restricted, you can unplug it at this time, using a metal bar or rod and a large hammer you can knock the stuff loose out of the end of it to clear the pipe. Now back to the Precat/Exhaust manifold, Loosen and remove the bolts and a small metal support bracket at the bottom of the assembly, it connects the precat to the engine case to give the manifold some lower support. Once all that is taken loose the only thing that should be holding the manifold are the nut and studs bolting it to the head. Soak them with WD40 and the nuts should come off with no problem. The Exhaust manifold gasket is a very nice metal gasket that can be reused it you don't damage it. Once the nuts are removed, put the manifold off the studs and lift it out and check it out completely. If it is damaged or plugged, you can unplug it at this time. Putting it back on with the cat unplugged will cause the service engine soon light to come on with the code that says catalyst efficiency below threshold or simply "bad cat".

5. "One thing I forgot to mention in the previous post, the engine oil is black, real black. It gets black very quickly, even after a complete change. And it stays black, even though I'm replenishing it with a fresh quart every 200 miles. " "Had the oil changed three days ago, so I checked the dipstick today to see its condition. It showed full, but I've only put a few miles on it. However, the oil is black again, so it's being exposed to combustion somewhere. This is the reason my mechanic thinks the oil drain pockets may be plugged. What else do you think could be causing fresh oil to blacken almost immediately after a change?" This is not a good sign, it could mean that the cylinder walls are damaged and that the rings are not sealing. The only good way to tell is buy pulling the head and actually inspecting the cylinders, checking the finish of the clyinder walls and measuring them with an inside micrometer. In the case of my daughters 2002 Altima 2.5S, I was lucky, as the cylinders looked in good shape and they were not worn. The oil consumption in my case was fixed with the new valve seals, and the head gasket leak was fixed with a head rebuild, milling the head flat and new gaskets.

6. Continued in the next messege.

electricdesign · March 2008

Continued from Messege # 220 above:

6. "And finally, please help me understand how a bad cat causes cylinder wear and oil consumption. Does a clogged cat cause the exhaust and cat chemicals to back-up into the engine? Does that corrode or wear the cylinder walls? Since I'm now using 1 quart / 200 miles, does that sound to you like it's too late to save it? And if I'm burning 1 quart / 200 miles, whether it's from scored cylinders, bad head gasket, or leaky valve guide seals, why don't I have a sooty black carbon buildup at the tail pipe?" The chemical ceramic material (like sand) comes out of the cat and into the exhaust ports and into the cylinders and eats up the cylinder walls and piston rings, allowing oil to leak up past the piston rings into the combustion chamber and burn up with the gasoline. The oil burns clean, so you don't get much soot, I'm not sure why it burns so clean, maybe computer controls helps it to burn more completely by advancing timing and adjusting the air/fuel ratio.

7. Finally, give me what ever information that you can, but it appears to me at this time, if you want to keep driving this car, you will need to set aside a pile of money and set some time aside out of your schedule and put your car on the calendar to do some major work on it. After everything else externally is checked out, you will need to tear down the engine and remove the head for an "Exploratory Teardown", send the head out to be resurfaced and rebuilt (New valve seals and check for cracks or leaks), And check the cylinders very carefully, lightly file the top of the engine block with a long straight file to be sure the deck is flat. If cylinders are good, you may put the whole thing back together like I did, but if cylinders are bad, the engine has to come out. Then you can decide to either rebuild that engine, or replace it with a rebuilt engine.
Good Luck,
E.D. in Sunny Florida

scttcrssmn · March 2008

E.D.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been off line for a couple days. I will read thoroughly and get back to you.

seanakio · March 2008

Hello all,

I wanted to let everyone in on what is going on with my very own 2002 2.5 altima with 85,000 miles. About 3 weeks ago I was driving home from work and the OIL light came on. I thought it was just from driving the car from Indiana to Florida and putting so many miles on it in a short time that may have burnt off some oil. I checked it and there was no oil on the dipstick. This freaked me out a little bit and I took it to get the oil changed. About 10 or so days later the OIL light and also the SES light came on. I checked the oil again and there was once again no oil on the dipstick. I put more in it myself and checked to make sure the level was correct after running it for a bit and the oil was BLACK. Very strange after putting brand new oil in. My dad looked around the Internet and found the forums on this problem. I took my car to NISSAN to get it diagnosed and they said the oil was mettalic and that showed signs of wearing on the cylinders. Now that it was diagnosed I called Nissan and after around a week or two ago got an answer back saying they couldn't do anything about it since it was out of warranty, which is understandable but something doesn't seem right about the whole ordeal. Now I am stuck in a perdicament to either rebuild, replace or trade. Any suggestions?

smoothride4me · March 2008

About 2 months ago, My girlfriend who owns a 2002 2.5.. Well her car abruptly started to run like pooo..We ended up having it towed because there was loss of power and it couldnt make it up the hill.. Took it to the mechanic and his computer showed it was the trans slipping,, That was mis diagnosed. I told him it was the Cat converter.. He took the o2 sensor out and started the engine.. debris came out of the hole and the car did run better but not perfect for a bit..The car started acting up again, Oil was very low, Very fast.. I changed the oil and within a week it was black but only about 1/2 quart low.. I took it in a few days ago and had them change out the Cat converter at a price of $700.. The car now runs like new, I just need to keep an eye on the oil consumption..I was just curious about the dumb design of having the catylitic converter built on the exhaust manifold, A dealer only part at $500..

laura19 · March 2008

I am going through the same exact thing! Although my car has 118K miles on it. I am losing a quart of oil every 100 miles. I was told the oil issue was "all set" since I recently had the following repairs w/in the last 3 months: coil pack, titanium plugs, cam shaft sensor, crank shaft sensor, fuel pump, O2 sensors, cat and manifold, oil pressure switch/sender, gasket under valve cover, tune-up... it keeps going. yesterday, I decided to give up. I am going to get rid of the car. My issues go right along with so many of the postings I see regarding the same Model/Make/Year. It's not "all set", in fact is appears worse. I have dumped $2600 into this car - could have had a new engine put in, but expect the same from another 2002 2.5 engine. I'm so sorry to hear you are going through it as well. Nissan will not even discuss the matter w/me - they just keep saying it needs a new engine (which I'm sure is true at this point). I will NEVER buy another Nissan.
Thanks for sharing your experience and I hope it works out for the best for you.

electricdesign · March 2008

3 more messeges about the faulty engines in the 2002 Nissan Altima 2.5S, they just keep coming. These messeges really get to me, it is very obvious to me that you DON'T want one of these cars. I wish there was a good way to warn people not to buy these cars. There are many of them for sale right now as I type. Tonight, I searched a popular online cars for sale site, and I found 155 2002 nissan Altimas with the 2.5 engine for sale within 500 miles of me, ranging from $6000 to $11,000. Too many innocent people have bought these cars and have been had!
Once the rapid oil consumption starts and the oil turns black quickly, it is TOO LATE, the engine is TOAST! The Pre-Cat has already eaten the inside of the engine, ate out the clyinder walls and piston rings! A new Precat or parts will NOT fix a toasted engine, only a new engine will, and eventually the same thing will happen again, given enough time and miles.
It looks like laura19 got the right idea and decided to get rid of the car, no sense in throwing good money after bad. I'm sorry she spent so much money trying to fix it, but you get to a point that you must throw in the towel, because you simply can not afford to lose anymore money.
It's just too bad that many people buy cars without first researching them on the Internet. Researching on the Internet saves so much hassle and money! Warn everyone that you can about problematic cars!
Well, good luck to all you guys, and I hope the best for you or at least better luck next time.
E.D. in Sunny Florida

marcogallo1986 · March 2008

I red online that back in 2003 there was a recall on the Pre cat. They replaced it with a hollow one this recall was for the 2002 altimas. That is Y manally Verry few of those mottal Year cars are having sum problems. The recall was NOt that whell noen. Has anyone elce Heard about this recall. Happy MOtoring. The altima is Not a bad car. Thankyou guys for reading My posting. Sorry about sum of My spelling. I am Leaguly blind I try my best cant drive the cars lov beeing around Them. Thankyou for taking the time to reed Marco.

jd10013 · March 2008

The altima is Not a bad car

of course its not, it's actually one of the best selling cars out there right now. 4or 5 people complaining on a MB about problems they had with theirs doesn't make a car a lemon. But I do understand their frustration. If I bought a car and it needed major work before it even hit 100k I'd :
1. Be pissed off
2. refuse to ever buy a car from that company again.

scttcrssmn · March 2008

Hello E.D. Been working with my mechanic on the 02 Altima engine with excessive oil consumption. He got access to Nissan's technical database and discovered there is a voluntary recall on this engine, for a certain range of VIN's, with excessive oil consumption. I'm guessing "voluntary recall" means it's not mandatory, and if you find out about it, Nissan will fix it. There is a four part process that the dealership has to go through to qualify your car for a complete engine replacement, paid for by Nissan North America. Prior to this, I have been in touch with both the local Nissan dealer and Nissan NA, neither of whom offered up this information. I'll be getting the actual printout of the database Wednesday so I'll have more info then. Sounds hopeful, but we'll see if I'm getting my hopes up for nothing. I'll post here what I find out, including the VIN # range. I'll also try to point you to the tech bulletin number so you can take it to your mechanics at the dealerships. More later.

jd10013 · March 2008

everything you want to know about the precat problem.

link title

scttcrssmn · March 2008

jd10013,
Thanks for the link. You've obviously read the same bulletin I received. Called the dealership where I bought the car new in '02 and they informed me I already had the recall work done back in '03. And yes, you are correct, they did the reprogram, "checked" the precat, replaced the heat shield (which has rattled incessantly since) and changed oil/filter. I asked "what happens now that it's obvious that the precat has failed and I am using 1 quart/200 miles?" Dealer got a little testy, said once the recall work was done they had no further responsibility, and suggested I bring it in for yet another $164 diagnostic. I'm really tempted to trade this car in, but have too much of a conscience to stick the next owner with this problem. Besides, I really like the car but know it's going to quit on me eventually. A quandary!

electricdesign · March 2008

If you have to empty out the pre-cat to keep it from eating up the engine, you can do a mod to the second oxygen sensor to make it not light the CEL.
Here is the link:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=208195

scttcrssmn · March 2008

Thanks for the link to the precat mod.

For readers with 02 Altimas with this problem, here's a link to the NissanHelp knowledgeBase.

http://x.nissanhelp.com/forums/Knowledgebase/links/280

Once there, you can enroll for free, then put NTB03-070c into their search field to get the recall info. It may get you nowhere, but you can at least see what Nissan knows about this problem and take it with you to the dealership to argue for a fix.

jd10013 · March 2008

What I found interesting, and others in in the forum I linked to tried was, take it in under the 80k emmision warranty. thats what one of the people in there did, and got a new engine because of it. oddly enough though, nissan put the same exhaust back on :confuse:

Anyhow, as the people in that forum have concluded, your best bet is to either remove and replace the exhaust manifold with an aftermarket one, or simply hollow out the existing one. in either case, because the car has another cat farther down the exhaust, you wont run into any inspection problems. hell, considering if you don't you could end up having to buy a new engine, even if you had to pay someone to do the cat stuff, it would be worth it IMO.

0506colix · March 2008

Hi, im new I have been reading all of the problem altimas have. I have a question hopefully some one knows the answer. I was driving my 06 altima 2.5 on the freeway when i got home it smell burnt, i poped the hood and saw my exhaust manifold red hot it was glowing red. I search for recalls found that they have one for engine and engine cooling. So i took it to the dealer they put in a new Exhaust manifol catalyst and reprogram my ECM. I drove my car around for 30 minutes in city streets at about 50mph, got home and it was the same thing and same smell. I was woundering is it normal for it to get that hot to turn red or is there something wrong with my engine. thank you.

busiris · March 2008

So i took it to the dealer they put in a new Exhaust manifol catalyst and reprogram my ECM. I drove my car around for 30 minutes in city streets at about 50mph, got home and it was the same thing and same smell. I was woundering is it normal for it to get that hot to turn red or is there something wrong with my engine. thank you.

NO...The exhaust manifold should never be that hot under normal driving conditions....you still have a problem!

winsan · March 2008

You may want to check your coolant level and the engine oil level. Make sure both are adequate.

cisco2004 · March 2008

hey folks,
i am new here. Over the last 30,000 (approx) miles i have had the same problem twice. A spark plug gets damaged while driving.The first time i had 113k miles on it. The mechanic said the gap between the electrodes was reduced to a minimum. This was the #4 plug. He regapped it and i drove on for the next 30,000 miles. This weekend it happened again. I was out of town for the weekend, it misfired and i went to another mechanic. This mechanic shows me the plug and again, the plug no longer has a gap. But it was from the #1 plug and this time I buy 4 new plugs. Twenty miles down the road, it happens again. I get back to the mechanic, fuss a bit, and he takes a look. Again it's the #1 plug and the new plug is damaged. Now other mechanics there are looking and offering opinions. One of them grabs a magnet and runs it down the valve and goes fishing. He pulls out a small piece of loose metal that must have been the culprit. Now it drives fine like it always did. What gives? What is falling apart and how long before engine failure? Any thoughts?

electricdesign · March 2008

This is a very common and well known problem with this engine, the "Power Valve" screws (also called the "butterfly screws) in the intake manifold come loose and fall out and get sucked into the engine. There is a recall on this. See if Nissan will honor your request, probably not since your car is so far out of warrenty.
If you don't fix it right away, it can permanently damage your engine.
To fix the problem, the upper intake manifold will have to be removed, then the remaining power valve screws will be visible (total of 8). All the screws must be removed and replaced with the new screws with sealing washers and locktite put on the threads of each screw, then reinstall all screws tight, then put everything back together. It's about a days work.
Here is the link that tells you all about the Cat and the Butterfly screws:

http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=135241

Good Luck,
E.D. in Sunny Florida

busiris · March 2008

Without seeing the possible contaminent, its impossible to say for sure what it is. Could be from a broken spark plug.

What I can say is that if its been in the cylinder for any length of time, you most likely have cylinder wall damage that will come back to haunt you soon, along with possible valve damage.

Personally, I would visit a garage that could "scope" each cylinder using an optical scope that enters the cylinder through the spark plug hole to have all the cylinders examined for damage. It shouldn't be that expensive for a look-see. Or, you could do nothing and see what happens...after all, the engine has around 145K miles, if your post was accurate.

Foreign parts inside a combustion chamber are NEVER good news.

Good luck.

busiris · March 2008

Dude!

I liked your explanation a whole lot better than mine! And, best of all, it makes sense. Seems strange that a manufacturer would create such a setup with a moderate/high probability of failure..

0506colix · March 2008

thank you for your feed back, I called the dealer today and made another appointment they said it was wired cuz the exhaust manifol was new. I felt it was losing power with the new manifol its lighter but it gets red hot.

0506colix · March 2008

I checked both the coolant level and engine oil level and they are at normal level. The temperature guage inside stays half way it never passes the half way position but the manifol is glowing hot, thank you.

sssp · March 2008

FYI.....and posting so others will have the info if and when needed!
New purchase Feb. 23, 2008 Altima SL....drove 2 weeks; would not start. Dealer kept for week and replaced starter on March 14 and car was picked up on Good Friday, drove out of town Saturday, and guess what? On Easter..it would not start. Had to be towed by wrecker to Dealer on Monday. ECM was replaced on 3/26 Wednesday....now Service Manager says there is a code showing up that it has a CLUTCH problem~?!? Funny...it's an automatic, 4 cylinder!! He wants to keep it until the middle of next week?~!?
Engine....gremlins....gobblins....munchins....lemon?
Any advice from knowledgeable gentlemen and ladies....please?~!?
SP :lemon:

tltc · April 2008

2008 Nissan Altima 2.5 with CVT-- brand new; on third tank of gas. Has anyone noticed hesitation when taking off from a stopped position? It almost feels as if the car isn't getting enough gas or if the gas is bad, which I know is fine because I have gone through two tanks and even tried the mid-grade gas when regular is all that's required. I do not recall the loaner car doing this (The dealership let me drive a new Altima while I was waiting for mine to be delivered.) I will be going to the dealership in the morning, but I am just curious to know if anyone else has had this problem and if it was resolved.

marcogallo1986 · April 2008

THe other day a guy posted that his 2008 altima would not start. Did it crank or no sound. Do you have the Keeless Ignishion On your Altima. if so that is your problem Your kee might have gon bad. And the dealer just replaced YOur starter to make Money that is Y it probbly Happend 2 days later to you on easter Sunday think you wher saying. Alwas carry a nother kee in the gluv box will never have the Problem ever.

And in Responce to the other guy WIth the 2008 Altima with the 4 sil engian that you had Said Has slow exceloration That is just the Cvt Dont think about it and the car will drive fine. You no when you think of sumthing to mutch it seams like it is happning all of the time. They are grate cars. ANd for peapol who get a cheek engian Light on allwase remembor to titan your gass Cap That is the problem most of the time. Thankyou for reading My posting trying to help everyone out any mor questians pleas let me no thankyou so Mutch. SOrry about sum of my spelling Thankyou.

tinan39 · April 2008

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum but have been reading it alot for about a month now. I own a 03 altima with 74k miles and the engine just blew 2 week after an oil change. I thought it was the shop that did the oil but it was not. To make a long story short my vehichle was inspected by a forensic investagator, the California Bureau of Automotive Repair and my mechanic. I was told the cat is bad and is causing my engine to burn oil. I took it to the nissan dealer and they said yes i need an engine at a cost of $4300.00 but the cat is fine because we did a test on it. WHAT TEST WHAT IS THAT????? You see if my cat failed at 74k then Nissan will have to pay for the repairs because it is warrantied for 80k. Well now i have to file a claim with nissan north america so i will be doing that next. I am writing this beacuse I am amazed at how may people are having these problems with these motors. I just sent an email to Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC begging him to at least look into the issue. I am imploring all of you with this same issue to do the same there is power in numbers. It will only take a few minutes of yur time and maybe just maybe save us all thousands of dollars. If anyone is starting a class action suit let me know and count me in!!! Thanks

czander · April 2008

Thanks for writing, and yes you will see there is one guy out there who indicated he works at a law firm and was starting some type of legal action....not sure who he is, but I too just finished my letter to Nissan North America
National Headquarters, Consumer Affairs, P.O. Box 605003, Franklin, TN 37068-5003

Also write to the Attorney General and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

good luck ~

czander at aol

czander · April 2008

did you see this note on Edmunds -- dated 2006.... reimbursement is possible but you need to report it to Nissan first, then take to Nissan Dealer, then send in receipts for reimbursement....

NISSAN RECALLS NEARLY 100,000 VEHICLES .... According to Edmund's Inside Line, Nissan has recalled 96,800 2006 Altimas and Sentra SE-Rs because of a risk of engine fire.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said that the 2.5-liter engines in the cars "may experience excessive oil consumption as a result of improper performance of the piston rings," a condition that could lead to an engine fire.NHTSA said if engine oil is not maintained at least at minimum levels, engine damage is likely and a fire is possible.

Owners can contact Nissan at (800) 647-7261 or NHTSA at (800) 424-9153.

czander · April 2008

CALL NISSAN -- THEY WILL REIMBURSE FOR THIS, SEE BELOW
Owners can contact Nissan at (800) 647-7261 or NHTSA at (800) 424-9153.
Reimbursement is possible but you need to report it to Nissan first, then take to Nissan Dealer, then send in receipts for reimbursement....

2006 - NISSAN RECALLS NEARLY 100,000 VEHICLES .... According to Edmund's Inside Line, Nissan has recalled 96,800 2006 Altimas and Sentra SE-Rs because of a risk of engine fire.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said that the 2.5-liter engines in the cars "may experience excessive oil consumption as a result of improper performance of the piston rings," a condition that could lead to an engine fire.NHTSA said if engine oil is not maintained at least at minimum levels, engine damage is likely and a fire is possible.

jd10013 · April 2008

they may be trying to pull a fast one one you, the car has 2 cats. the second one farther down the exhaust will be, and will test fine.

but anyway, your wasting your time with lawsuits, and especially tv. There is nothing to look into. its a poor design to put the cat so close to the engine. nissan is under no legal obligation to build an engine that lasts more than xxx amount of miles. building a crappy car doesn't make them liable for damages. unless it's under warranty, and isn't a safety issue, they arn't legally liable to do anything, though it is in their best interest.

and there was another recall on it. the few people who are experiencing the problem proabably either didn't have it done, or it wasn't done properly.

lnesomdove · April 2008

I have patiently read the previous 260 posts as well as other posts on the internet in various forums and suffice it to say, it can be very depressing owning one of these cars. I only found these threads after my own daughter experienced an issue with her car that was exhaust related. She purchased her 2002 Altima back in March of 2008 with 112,000 miles on it. She researched the model here on the internet and never came across these issues, only when I added 'exhaust' to the search did this problem show up.

So why did I find this group? A week or so ago, her car started making an unusual sound that was definitely exhaust related. It was only noticeable when accelerating from first gear, was not present in idle or reverse and didn't seem to be present in second or other gears (unless you had to pass someone and jumped on the accelerator). This sound could be duplicated by putting the car in first, standing on the brakes and accelerating, sounding like a 'whooshing' or muffled sound. Standing behind the car, you couldn't feel a lot of exhaust coming out the tailpipe and in fact, one of the tailpipes seemed to have no airflow or negative airflow. We diagnosed it as a plugged muffler with back pressure coming out at the manifold.

We replaced the muffler and the problem was still present and in fact now, it seemed that one of the two tailpipes actually had suction instead of exhaust. This is when we discovered these threads as I was looking for suggestions and help. I showed these to my daughter (a college student using this car for transportation to and from college) and told her to take it to Nissan the next morning on her way to school. We printed out all of the posts and information about the safety recalls, etc and she was at least armed with information.

Since she purchased the car in March, she really didn't know the history of the car so this was a good time to pull it up at Nissan. They showed her the recall procedure for the manifold/cat/exhaust had been performed at 28,000 miles. They charged her for a diagnostic procedure and determined that she had scraped the bottom of her car, enough so that the bracket that holds the exhaust pipe in place between the 2 cats was severely bent. They indicated that the noise she was hearing was coming from the junction at the bottom of the exhaust connection where it makes the bend to the back of the car as this had separated a little because of the scraping of the bottom of the car.

They managed to get this back together, but there was still a noise, although not as bad. She insisted they check out the pre-cat and they agreed. They pulled it off and found it in good condition and putting it back together replaced the seal bearing. They cranked it up and the noise was now gone. Evidently the seal bearing was dislodged or something in her incident.

The good thing about this was that I wanted to make sure that her car wasn't about to self destruct and wanted to catch it early if it was and Nissan confirmed that it was fine. I personally recommended that she consider a Nissan since we own a 1995 Maxima with 225,000 miles on it, and while showing some age, it is a very reliable/dependable car. It doesn't get serviced as often as it should, but the oil looks almost new when changed even after 5000 miles, so our experience with Nissan had always been a good one. Over the years, I haven't had to replace much on the Maxima other than normal wear and tear, of course, when you had to fix something (like an alternator), it was always more expensive than domestic cars.

Sorry for the long post, but after reading them all and others on the net, while this appears to be a problem for some, no one seems to know if it's a problem for all or how many cars are really affected. Yes, we don't want it to be ours, but if 5% are affected, what do you do to insure that yours isn't one of those 5% if you choose to keep this car? Is this a matter of 'not if but when'? Is this inevitable? Nissan doesn't seem to think so as even their own writeup indicates 'under certain conditions'.

They stated to my daughter yesterday that the recall that is mentioned in here doesn't replace the pre-cat and if you read what they will do, it states they inspect it, replace oil filter among other things. They are basically looking to see if the pre-cat is an issue or not. Even though her recall procedure was done at 28k, it's now been done again at 116k.

So, is there anything anyone can do to make sure their car isn't one of the ones that ends up getting complained about on here? ED, I read your posts and I swear, I thought I was writing them for a moment as the similarities were scary to a point. Is this a matter of putting on your calendar to periodically check the pre-cat and if so, how often? Is there some indication that a problem is occurring before it's too late? It seems to me that once it starts using oil (a noticeable sign), it's too late. It would be nice to know what the signs are that it's going bad before it actually kills the engine.

smoothride4me · April 2008

I Have a 2002 Altima, After taking it to have the pre cat changed at the tune of $700 the car was runing like it should. Well thats before I checked the oil.. It ended up using one quart every 500 miles.. I took it to the dealer and they said there was no recall on the pre cat or oil consumption.. Both these problems occured within a month of each other.. They also told me the engines usually only last from 150,000-175,000 miles.. I found that hard to believe.. I had a Toyota pick up which I sold running with 294,000 miles.. Dont know what to do about Nissan, They fail to acknoledge there is a problem.. Any help would be greatfull

jd10013 · April 2008

what do you do to insure that yours isn't one of those 5% if you choose to keep this car? I

the sure fire, 100% guaranteed solution is to remove, or hollow out the pre-cat. there is a second cat farther down the exhaust, so you'll pass any emission test.

sssp · April 2008

Just an update:
I just picked up my new 08 White Frost/blond leather Altima for my :lemon: that I had only for 2 months! Documentation is a wonderful thing. NissanUSA offered the new car at no charge, so I took them up on it!
I hope that the problems that occurred with the little Precision Grey one :sick: were isolated and a freak of nature.
Hopefully and prayfully this one will perform as it should......

Thanks for those who posted responses...that means a lot to this newbie. This is a great site...keep up the great work! :shades:

electricdesign · April 2008

"what do you do to insure that yours isn't one of those 5% if you choose to keep this car? "

First, you have to be sure that the engine is not too far damaged, and using too much oil. Once it is using more than a quart per 1000 miles, it is probably too late. My daughters 2002 Altima was using about 1 quart in 1500 miles when I worked on it in Decenber 2007. The first Cat blew itself clean and the second Cat was plugged up. Now it is running fine with both Cats hollowed out and a new head gasket. I estimate that it is now using 1 quart of oil in about 2500 to 3000 miles. We don't have an emmisions inspection here in Florida, so we can run it that way. To keep the "Sevice Engine Soon" light from staying on, I put the "$5 02 Cheater", mentioned in previous posts, on the second oxygen sensor, and it works fine, keeps the light off. That's the way to keep the engine running fine, if yours is not too far gone.
If the engine is too far gone & using too much oil, nothing will fix it but a new engine.
If you start to get the problem and the engine is not too far gone, and you live in an emissions testing state, you would need to put on a new Precat/Exhaust manifold at the very first sign of the Cat going bad, before the engine is damaged. A new Cat will NOT fix a damaged engine.
Owners and buyers Beware, Check that CAT at every service and check the oil level often, at least once a week. This is a known problem, so look out for it!
Good Luck,
E.D. in Sunny Florida

pdupuy · May 2008

I have a 2004 Altima S, i have had alot of trouble with this car. It has around 109, 000 miles, i recently brought it in for a recall for the crank position sensor and have had nothing but trouble since. I had two sensors replaced 3 weeks ago, now the check engine light is on again and they're saying the code is for the 02 sensor. Is anyone else having these kind of issues? Ready to trade it in but leery of buying another nissan product at this point. Any advice?

electricdesign · May 2008

Your instincts are good, Trade it in for anything but a Nissan. Please read the 264 Posts before of yours to find out why!

marcogallo1986 · May 2008

What has bin rong with your 2004 Nissan Altima bisides the recalls and now the engian light cumming on at 100900 Miles and the dealer telling you that you nead a new oxygen sencer. Probbly one is bad not boath Oxygen sencers. My dad baught a hundai with 90000 Miles that the engian light came on when he got it and it was a bad Oxygen sencer. that does not make a car a lemin or a bad car. you don't have to read all postings on this bord. they dont have anything to do with your car. onnly the 2002 altimas nissan fixed the problem with the pre cat and the Oial consumtion in 2003 and the new altimas are grate cars would trade it in and get a new one. And not think about it for a secand. Hey so a few of every moddle year have sum Problems that is the way it is with all auto Makers. TOyota and HOnda have sum problems even Ford has its problems to look at consumer reports. they are getting bettor slolly but no whair close yet. I have seen problems with new fords Schevy's crisolers every make and moddle has it problems sumtimes. Nissan is one of the best rite next to honda and toyota and Hundai and Kia. Yea I no guys kia and Hundai used to be bad cars not anymore. And I am not just saying all of this Look at consumer reports The only onnest car tester out there all the rest of them are full of them selves. Ok that is enuff for now Thankyou for reading just wanted to tell everyone like it is. Dont believe everything that is posted on the Message bords take everything with a grane of saulte. You dont no if sumone did not do a recall or sumthing. Or they baught the car used and did not see if all recalls wher done on the car before they baught it. That is it for now Have a verry good Day everyone sorry about the spelling Marco.

jd10013 · May 2008

actually, the oil consumption problem was fixed as soon as it was recognized. the whole thing is caused by a too rich fuel mixture. the recall to re program the ecm corrects the problem. I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the majority of cars experiencing the problem were either:
1. never had the recall performed
2. the recall was not done correctly.

Thats part of the reason I no longer buy used cars. it costs more buying new, but I know exactly what I have, what's been done to it, and how its been treated and maintained.

as for nissan reliability, I've posted it many times but, I've owned 3 nissan vehicles. 2 long term. my 07 altima is only a year old. my first nissan was a 1990 sentra that I traded in with 220k miles, 12 years old, and still running. the only work that was ever done to it was 1 CV joint, 1 CV boot, brakes, muffler, and an oil pan, though that was because of something the wife ran over

. Plus routine stuff like oil changes and so on. My second nissan was a 1998 200sx (coupe version of sentra). I still own it, have 156k miles on it, drive it to an from work most days (mostly because I get about 38 MPG), and have not had to do any non maintanence work on it. that 9 yr old car with 156k miles on it has had the front brakes done twice, and thats it. the rear drum brakes are original. as are all the belts, hoses, clutch and so on. 2 brake jobs and thats it. and on top of that, the car has never broke down, or failed to start in the morning. It's been 100% perfect, as was the sentra.

Thats not to say nissan is perfect. I don't know if they've improved things, but nissans have always rusted excessively IMO. Not so much as to shorten their lives, but more than other cars do. Nissan also has about the worst paint/process of any car out there. Its soft, thin, and chips easily.

but if properly maintained, they will last longer than you need them too.

coop0129 · May 2008

I have a 2002 Nissan Altima 2.5 with all of the recall work performed. I think I may just hollow out my cats sometime in the near future just to do it. I don't want the check engine light on. What can I do to fix that and the light will not come on. I saw that someone said a $5 O2 cheater? What is that? My car has 95000 miles on it. Thanks.

jd10013 · May 2008

something like that. the problem with hollowing out, or removing the cat is that there are 2 O2 sensors. one before, and one after the cat. if the both get the same reading, your SES light will come on. I'm not sure if you misspoke, but you said you might hollow out your cats. Don't do both. Its just the first (precat) that can cause problems. It's too close to the engine. the second cat farther down the line will not give you any problems. And, you'll need that second cat to pass inspections. anyhow, here's the link with your options. you can allways get a new header instead of hollowing out.

link title

Nissan Altima Engine Failures

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