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What to expect from the next model year Prius
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Comments
This is set to be powered by a 1.6-litre turbo engine, mated to a more efficient hybrid system. Previously, Toyota has hinted it would use lithium-ion batteries to create a vehicle capable of returning up to 100mpg.
However, technical challenges in the development of the new cells has forced bosses to abandon this plan, and instead it will use less advanced lead acid cells.
NOT...!!
There is just barely enough HEAT level left in the exhaust of an atkinson engine to fire off the catalyst to operating temperature. Certainly NOT enough to "power" a turbo.
On the other hand a fully variable speed/boost Supercharger might be an ideal way to increase the power of a 1.6L engine up to the level "required". Adding another variable frequency inverter to power a 2-3 HP AC motor to drive the SC would be a POC. Even better, driving the SC via a combination of the ICE and an AC motor via a form of the e-CVT would be even better.
I have brought this up before that the amount of time that full power is ever used is comparitively small, perhaps the standard should be that when cruising at top speed. But could you even fail a vehicle on its pollution count at 100mph since that condition is beyond posted limits permitted in any state ?
T2
However talking of engine use at max rpms, that is the reason I favor series hybrids. With control of the throttle most drivers will not rev above 4000rpm, so they have this large engine but they never use but two thirds its capacity.
With Prius and series hybrids you relinquish that control to the ECU. In return you get, with the Prius, a performance boost not found with stepped transmissions as the engine continuously rises towards its full rpm at 51mph.
Instead of capitalising further on this advantage, the industry appears to be looking to use more power to be sourced from batteries. Fom a recent announcement we learn Toyota is supplying two Prius to SoCal universities equipped with larger NiMH packs. I see that as a niche market with the cost of the battery raising the hybrid premium.
Alternatively, I would like to see the Fiat 900cc two-cylinder engine style, from the Panda Aria concept that's scheduled for 2010 I believe, installed in the next design of Prius. It has 25% less weight and 20% more FE over the small four usually fitted to that Fiat vehicle. Fiat is working on a 65Hp naturally aspirated version but the turbocharged 105Hp is good to go. I can only guess that the higher CR used on the lesser engine is giving a NOX issue.
Fewer cylinders would provide a needed cost reduction on the Prius. I would quite believe that the machining operations are similar in inline fours such that the price delta between 1.5L and 2.4L engines is quite small. It is going to need something like less cylinders to make a difference.
They used to say about small engines 'a different hill needed a different gear'. The Prius servos with their ability to supply the exact ratio needed for the load torque at any point in time would seem ideally suited to these two-cylinder engines.
T2
I hope you bought carbon offset credits for the flight. ha!
Just kidding, of course, but that joke works on so many levels, I couldn't resist!
The test vehicles are here to evaluate the usefulness of the extended range on EV only, to see if it is really worth the extra cost, in an urban setting. They are also evaluating the use of the plug-in feature, to see how that translates to reduced emissions, again, in a US urban setting, and the Japanese ones in their urban setting. It's hard for the engineers to know exactly how such a vehicle would be used, as that is different in different cultures, so these tests are to gather data on that.
If it were possible to build a commercially-viable series hybrid, I think Toyota would already have done it. I hear lots of hype about series hybrids, but have yet to see an actual implementation, except for (I think) diesel train engines.
Do you have any links to post for anyone who has ever produced such a auto comercially?
http://www.azuredynamics.com/november262004b.htm
Azure were working a deal in the UK with London Taxis International to supply them with a series hybrid cab. At least one was built and shipped from their plant in Vancouver, BC. Later on LTI introduced their new "Black Cab" for London's downtown. Said vehicle turned out to be a 2.2L diesel with automatic transmission. That's right, someone gave the greenlight to mixing thousands of diesel engines in one of the most populated areas in England, go figure.
This particular action seemed hardly consistent with government policy to reduce air pollution in urban settings. A while later Azure closed their UK office.
Azure Dynamics is a division of Ballard Power Systems. Last week Ballard announced the sale of its automotive fuel cell division.
In the meantime it must have been somewhat embarrasing for Azure to learn that the highest mileage hybrid was in fact a Vancouver taxi in the form of a Toyota Prius, which had been running around in their own backyard.
T2
Regarding power limitation, you are probably aware the Prius - with software changes - could reach 60 mph using the nominal 21kw without actually overspeeding MG1 but is seven miles of this continuous type of operation going to be tolerable to the PSD ? Else it will be interesting to see how many opportunities there are to drive below 42mph for the extended range.
T2
As for low temps, I don't think -10 C would be too bad. I've not seen any problems with the "traction battery" so far, but I've also only seen -5C (this will be Pearl's first winter). Once you start using the battery it quickly warms up, and it only has to start the ICE at first.Others with more winter experience have not had problems with the "traction battery", it's been the 12V one that has failed them. We shall see.
Now once the temp gets down below -40C (or F - they are about the same) then it gets interesting. THAT is when we start having battery problems with lead acid ones. At least the NiMH battery won't freeze at those temps.! It takes a lot of current to turn over an engine when the oil is that cold. It kind of tends to become molasses. I'm referring to the oil in the HSD, as the engine oil can be 5W30 synthetic (what I'm using) and it flows pretty well, even at -40.
Yuck, thanks for reminding me what I'm going to experience in the next few months!
I think it's documented and confirmed by scantool that MG2's controller will current limit to a battery bus draw of 100 Amps. The two packs should share this current since the volt drop in their internal impedances may force a current equalising effect, not perfect but close enough for new packs and in the short term. I don't want to debate whether this is a good idea for reliability going forwards, perhaps not. But right now this is a test about the human interface response to an extended driving range.
MG2 will have benefit from the upconverter that normally transforms the 201v pack voltage towards 500v as the vehicle goes from 20mph to 50mph, of which you may have forgotten. So connecting packs in series is not an issue here. As the vehicle gains speed over this range the current will have to reduce inversely of course to observe the nominal 21kw limitation on battery power specified with the Gen II Prius (NHW-20). And I suppose it goes without saying that as long as 21kw exceeds the power needed to cruise, the vehicle will continue to accelerate.
You've not addressed my concern of MG1 approaching 10,000rpm as the vehicle nears 60mph which may setup an audible whine. This speed was promised earlier for the Li-ion pack which is why I bring it up.
Have you seen these ?
The following contain useful temperature / power graphs
For CY1997-2000 NHW-10 Prius, 7.2V X 40 modules (cylindrical)
For CY2000-2003 NHW-11 Prius, 7.2V X 38 modules (old prismatic)
(They used to have a comparison page, but it was gone.)
For CY2003-2005 NHW-20 Prius, 7.2V X 28 modules (new prismatic)
For CY2005 HH/RX400h, 9.6V X 30 modules (metal prismatic)
T2
For CY1997-2000 NHW-10 Prius, 7.2V X 40 modules (cylindrical)
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_maru.html
For CY2000-2003 NHW-11 Prius, 7.2V X 38 modules (old prismatic)
(They used to have a comparison page, but it was gone.)
For CY2003-2005 NHW-20 Prius, 7.2V X 28 modules (new prismatic)
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html
For CY2005 HH/RX400h, 9.6V X 30 modules (metal prismatic)
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kinnzoku.html
T2
Thanks, interesting link.
I'm wondering if the cost is prohibitive vs. performance for the consumer market. Businesses can depreciate costs, so their equipment can be more expensive and still be economically viable.
Also, delivery vans don't generally run long distances at high speeds; I wonder how that would work out with consumer vehicles...
Need a hybrid, but the current Prius interior and dash layout are not to my liking for the money spent. Wish they had a more standard dash layout, than I would jump on it. Though some pictures are around of a possible new hybrid Prius in 09, none of which have a interior shot.
Toyota, I hope will make the follow on Prius much better inside. Still like the exterior, but that to now needs a refresh.
If anyone in the know, has some rumors about what the new Prius follow on interior looks like, please post a link. Thanks
Motortrend. There is a drawing based on information or rumors from employees inside Toyota. The drawing shows a very sleek machine, although drawings are often exaggerated. Also mentions that the engine will be a 1.8 litre, and initially will use the current battery pack.
As a counterpoint, I love the dash on my current Prius I hope that keep that in some form or another.
To continue with the simple expedient of merely increasing the engine rpm by 20% must needs the rest of the system to accomodate this. And inexpensively too I might add. The fact is you have to start with the MG2 system which will need upgrading 20% also, since at lower speeds the majority of the torque at the wheels comes from this machine - 259lbs-ft versus 59lbs-ft from the ICE. To do this the three stage reducer giving a 4.113 stepdown ratio needs to be stretched still further to 5.0. This will require MG2 to run at 7200rpm at 100mph and to do that will require the upconverter to supply a max of 650volts, up from the 500volts used previously. At the same time MG1 will need to reach 12000 rpm to generate this voltage also. All these things have been done with the Camry Hybrid by the way. The remaining gearing and motor currents will stay as before. Since voltage and rpm are 'free' only the minimal cost of the two gears being changed is the salient factor. Motor windings can remain the same since the engine torque is not being upgraded. The system continues to deal with the same torque as before but at a newer maximum rpm.
Let's determine the max power point using ICE = 6000rpm, MG1= 12000rpm.
Then 12000 - 3.6 x 6000 = - 2.6 x MG2,
so MG2 = 3692rpm and since 7200rpm = 100mph.....
The current Prius engine does not reach full power until 51.28mph, and the calculation shows this suggested new arrangement won't change things either. Of course MG2 would now be rated at 60kw with somewhat higher iron losses but these would be compensated by improved cooling. This is still the same vehicle so the rolling losses haven't changed, just the time the system can be run at full power at maximum acceleration has been reduced. It must be obvious to most that the more powerful you make the car the shorter the time you are going to have to use that power if top speed, as here, is clipped at 100mph. And this is what the designers are banking on. This also means that despite the expected performance uptick anyone who puts a towbar on this vehicle can still put the system at risk.
In #104 replying to wwest earlier I wrote one of the problems with HSD is the ring gear and the components connected to it. Rotating this assembly beyond 6000rpm raises a serious balance issue. It represents the output shaft of the whole system and this rpm at 100mph is fine for a planetary connected to a 4 cyl engine, later on however it may turn out to be too slow for the higher speed small engines in the pipeline It will be interesting to see whether this ring gear increase is the choice Toyota will make. Everything has risk but it's not like the greater population are regularly driving or should be driving this vehicle above 85mph anyway that would repeatedly test 7200rpm speeds on this component.
Finally I would like to see them copy the Camry design which has omitted the sprocket chain power takeoff - thereby possibly releasing a 6% gain in torque by my estimation. If you care to go to #470 on the Toyota Camry Hybrid board where USBSEAWOLF2000 has posted diagrams of the two systems you can see what I mean.
I am fairly sure they won't go so far as to copy that second planetary used to raise the specific power of MG2 that you will also see there. For that matter I think HSD design will stagnate until the Chevy Volt appears or Honda returns with a new hybrid but not with their mechanical CVT that can't seem to reach 100k miles nor with the IMA which becomes ineffective when the HV battery is exposed to extended sub zero temperatures.
T2
I don't know where these rumors begin, but I suspect it's magazines trying to sell copies, not real info. leaked from Toyota. Including the image showing a sleeker Prius. Do know that the "bean shaped" (my description, please don't read any of my feelings into that term) concept car first shown last year at the German Auto show has many design ideas that, according to Toyota, will be used in the next iteration.
I concur that the current car is powerful enough. And I'm comparing to a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder LE (240 HP 265 lb-ft of torque). My Prius passes better on 2 lane highways than the Pathfinder ever did! Probably a combination of lower weight, lower wind resistance, and electric motor torque assistance.
That being said a 'new' model has to offer something to make the next model attractive so as not to become stale. Increased fuel economy would be wonderful if it were to jump to to mid 50's under the new EPA standards; ( 1.8 gal / 100 mi driven or 4.28 l/100km ). With EV / ECON options it would be very appealing to certain groups of buyers.
As for a new engine it appears that Toyota is going to the 'R' structure across the board beginning with the 1GR in the current 4R. That's been followed by the 2GR, 3GR, 1UR, 3UR and most recently the 2ZR 1.8L in the new Corolla and Matrix. A new 2.7L I4 is forseen in the new Venza in the fall, 1AR? Would it not make sense to standardize everything to Atkinsonize the current 1ZR 1.6L for the next Prius?
Any rumors?
I looked up the engine specs for bore and stroke for the 2007 Camry unchanged with the Atkinson variant. The 2.4L 2AZ-FXE engine has a longer stroke (96mm) than the Prius 1.5L (84.7mm). Furthermore the Camry's 6000rpm yields an astounding average piston speed of 19.2m/sec - that's close to racing engine territory.So your statement Long stroke engines don't handle high RPM well may be good theory but Toyota doesn't appear to be following it. In comparison the 1NZ-FXE engine in the Prius tops out at at a leisurely 13.55m/sec piston speed at 5000rpm.
@kdhspyder
I have to defer to your grasp of available engines. The 1.6L would work as an upgrade and in keeping with production conformity. I am not familiar with this engine. The HSD will of course just throttle back a more powerful engine to prevent torque overload on MG1. If this engine suited the 6000rpm mod that I outlined earlier - then fine. As a marketing ploy I am not sure this upgrade is a good idea.
My take is to go the other way with the adoption of a 1.0L 3 cyl similar to the Honda Insight engine. This would yield a big step in fuel economy for the careful driver. On the other hand aggressive driving would showcase the superiority of the HSD system particularly with smaller engines. If you remember, the original cars were fairly anaemic with the same 1NZ-FE engine. It was the 50 % upgrading of the power electronics for the 2004 model year that transformed this car and I am of the opinion that this fact alone will mask somewhat the adoption of a less powerful engine. Going to a tad lighter powertrain up front may affect positively the handling performance also.
T2
And my suggestion of a variable speed SC had to do with lowering the size of the ICE while producting the same level of torque and at the same time "evening out" the torque curve, raising the ICE torque at the low end.
There is also the additional issue with the SC boost available of not having to put the electrics to so much use for hwy use when it cannot be recharged except via the ICE.
I am going to respond as best I can.
I have to make a correction regarding your first paragraph. The torque of the ICE at 5000rpm is around 82lbs-ft not 120lbs-ft, that's if we are discussing the Prius that is. As you are no doubt aware the PSD is not accurately a Power Split Device as Toyota likes to describe it but actually a Torque Split Device. It's a trap I fell into a few years ago since those mathematical equations are a bore. To continue then, we have the PSD splitting the engine torque sending 1/3.6 times 82 or 22lbs-ft into MG1 and the remaining 2.6/3.6 times 82 or 59lbs-ft to the ring gear and ultimately the wheels which I am sure you know.Those figures are reached during maximum acceleration. However as I understand it, as a generator there is no limitation on MG1 except with the proviso that you don't let it generate more than 100 amps or exceed 10,000rpm else the ECU will cause the ICE to be throttled back On the Camry they've allowed a version of this machine to reach 14,000 rpm. So I am confident there is not an rpm issue with MG1 that correspondingly limits the ICE rpm. And MG1 is the critical machine in the HSD system.
Regarding your middle paragraph, I wasn't aware there was a bottom end torque deficiency but I'm taking your word for it. All I know is that those with scan tools said that Toyota likes to 'park' the engine at 1211 rpm when they need to keep it running when power demand is less than about 8 Hp. If torque was linear then at 1/4 speed as here we should expect 76/4 or 19Hp at this speed so that indeed corroborates what your stating. Naturally the longer you can keep the engine at these low revs the better the fuel economy -reduced engine frictional losses etc.
I don't get your last paragraph since the SC is not going to help during acceleration since the engine will move up its speed range quite quickly thanks to the partial decoupling of the engine from the wheels afforded by the HSD system.
Toyota may be addressing low speed torque deficiency with its double VVT-i engine at the next upgrade.
T2
As to some of the complaints of others about the seats. I've done several trips (2,000 miles plus) and found them to be more than comfortable. The car will never ride like a "Towncar" but reasonable people know this. A few things I'd like to see on the '09 Prius...SmartKey standard....Tiltwheel...Wider Tires... and (what I hope is coming) THE PLUG-IN Mode. Oh! By the way ...I hope Toyota improves the ease of replacing Hd Lt Bulbs. They're a %*#@!!!!
The Prius has a very very loyal owner/fan base that's chomping at the bit to get some tidbit of real data on the next generation. All that Toyota has said is that they decided to delay implementation of the Li-Ion batteries until more validations could be done. I believe that they stated these would be at least 2 more years down the road. 2011 MY?
But they also denied that there was any delay in the production of the next Gen. Implying that it would be coming out 'on schedule' - whatever that is. The normal schedule for Toyotas is 5 years. That would put the next Gen coming here in mid-Oct of this year. Speculation but I'd feel confident of it.
My own speculation is that the body is somewhat redone but it's still a 5 door hatch which is one of the best features of the vehicle. I'd guess that it will use the 1.6L 1ZR engine that's already in use in Japan with improved electrics and gearing for somewhat more power and better fuel economy. The new HH has both an EV and an ECON mode. I can see the next Gen Prius having both as well.
Fuel economy? + 10-20% using the new EPA numbers.
There may also be a small Prius sedan with either really high fuel economy or one that has the same fuel economy as the 5 door hatch but a much lower price. There could also be a third version as well, pickup, small minivan, small utility vehicle? All speculation.
Interesting sidenote: When the first Prius' went on sale here in 2000 they were sold to a specific clientele . These buyers had to register with Toyota to be get on the list for one of the first ones to arrive here. These first buyers were called the Pioneers. When this current Gen was being brought to market in June/July of 2003 these Pioneers were given the opportunity to be the first ones to buy the new Gen. If you know one of these Pioneers you might keep an ear open to see if they receive an early offering from Toyota. I sold one of the first of the first back in July of 2000. This buyer also bought one of the first of the first of this current Gen.
I can now sell my car for only a couple thousand less then what what I paid for it (I bought it barely used from a friend and I live in an 'Outback' high demand area) and buy a barely used '07 Prius. The difference with sales tax will be around $3,000.
Should I just wait a year and buy the new model, or do it now before my car starts to de-value rapidly, as the seem to do? ALSO, does anybody have an idea what the new Prius will look like? Thanks!
I would also think "barely used" Priuses would be hard to find and not much cheaper than new.
There were some photos earlier of what the 2009 Prius might look like, but I think these were photoshopped expectations and not the real deal. Basically the same overall shape, but swoopier.
I can't believe that an innovative company such as Subaru hasn't come up with a Hybrid.
Subaru developed a hybrid a few years ago but didn't bring it to market because they couldn't meet a resonable pricepoint (read: It cost too much to manufacture). Back in 2005, they were considering using existing Toyota technology and work out a technology trade (toyota hybrid driveline for Fuji Heavy Industries lithiumion battery tech.). However, as of 2006, it looked like they determined they couldn't use existing Toyota drivetrain. See below.
"Reuters is reporting that the two automakers have decided to jointly develop a new hybrid system instead. Apparently, Subaru’s symmetrical all-wheel-drive has proven too complex to simply plug Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive system in.
[Source: Nihon Keizai Shimbun via Reuters]"
There hasn't been much talk recently, but it still seems a long way out according to this
Subaru Hybrid
Even the Subaru website doesn't serve up anything too optimisitc on a reasonable timetable.
Subaru
So I am looking to buy a Prius, if I could get an 07 Prius for only an extra $3000, I would jump at the opportunity.
I have a very good relationship with my local Subaru dealer. I called him yesterday to ask about a high MPG Subaru. He said all I could do is wait for the diesel that may be in the US in about another 12 months. With diesel fuel selling for about $4.35 per gallon and the efficiency not as good as a good hybrid, I am not anxious to buy an oil burner.
Toyota has recently purchased another large chunk of Subaru parent FHI stock. You would think they would want Subaru to be more successful. Right now, they Subaru dealers are sitting on alot of inventory, even their new and improved Forester. I like the Forester, but with MPG ratings in the low 20s, I just can't justify buying another poor MPG performer.
I even have $900 is Subaru bucks burning a hole in my pocket, but these days, $900 doesn't pay for a lot of gasoline.
gearhead4
Now I wish to find some photos of the interior of the 09. I really wish the interior dash and displays would change. Not really up on what is on the car now. A more normal dash would be to my liking.
Also the current Navi is too far out where the sun will hit it causing the view of the screen to be washed out. A none touch screen as well. Too many darn finger prints.
Had a Civic 06 touch screen Navi and did not like it much. Now have the 08 Honda Accord with Nav system, no touch screen and it is a joy to use on long trip.
I will wait for the Jetta Diesel.... much more a driver's car. and won't have to worry about magnetic fields....
"due consideration"... excuse me?
I'm not allowed to point out the shortcomings of the Prius?
http://priuschat.com/forums/2009-toyota-prius/47621-putting-speculation-rest-200- 9-carryover-2008-confirmed.html#post621530
Expect the Gen 3 to arrive here summer 2009 as a 2010 model.
The EPA numbers are out for the Jetta Diesel ...
.. it's 2nd rate as compared to the Prius and HCH,
.. plus diesel is significantly more expensive than gas,
.. plus the pricing is likely to be at or above the hybrid models
.. plus it's a VW with all of VW's baggage to drag around.
But it probably drives better ( :lemon: ), woo hoo.
I thought you were spot on. All common complaints from owners. Handling in the wind is a biggie for me. I see them crawling along at 45 MPH to keep them on the highway when the wind blows across Interstate 8 here in San Diego. They seem to be a good city runabout, though kind of expensive.
I've recently seen 2 Prii lose control on straight, flat, 4-lane highways in the rain at the speed limit and walled it into a concrete barrier. No other cars seemed to mind the invisible forcefield that causes Prii to spontaneously hydroplane.
I'd never stick my family in a car with low-rolling resistance tires. Wet, dry or cold. You can't put a price on safety.
If you choose to drive alone in a Prius because money is more important than health and safety, so be it. But do your loved ones a favor and keep the Outback or buy a Jetta.
Accident avoidance is improved with better handling and tires. 'Safe happens' in a Jetta, but not in a Prius from what I've seen.
Don't worry. People that buy Prius are not worried about how the vehicle handles. I don't even see them being cross shopped by VW buyers. Look out if they ever bring the Rabbit TDI to the USA. Or the One series BMW diesel. Then the Prius will have some good competition at the pump. Until then you got a captive market, courtesy of the EPA and CARB.
PS
I forgot the Accord diesel that was just tested and got 53 MPG highway.
Because they clearly are not using the NHTSA 4-star frontal crash rating to say that the Prius is safer than the 5-star Subaru Outback. You know, Subaru, the only company in which every model has been an IIHS Top Safety Pick.
And if you've bought that the Prius is safer than the Outback, I have some ocean property in Arizona I'll sell you at a discount. Does the Prius still have Drum Brakes in the rear?
Slippery tires, midevil brakes, gets loose in crosswinds because of bad aerodynamics. And a lower safety rating from the reputable source, NHTSA.
I was referring specifically to you for keeping the Outback. If you think fuel is more important than family, you go right ahead and pick up the Prius. Thanks for playing.
The Prius gets 4-stars for the front, but they get the same points as the Outback's 5-stars.
For side impact, the Prius' 4.5 stars gets less points than the Outback's 5-stars.
What the heck? Shouldn't the Prius have scored higher (worse) in both cases?
They scored the same 4-stars for rollover rating, but again the Prius gets fewer points. What the heck?
Any more rubbish sites that 'prove' the Prius is safer? Because logic dictates otherwise.
Golly Gee you're only 6-1/2 years out of date!!!!! You do realize that since the Gen2 came out there are no such thing as LRRT's on any of the OEMs. How can you make a post like that based on completely inaccurate data? Pretty soon it will be 2004 and you can bring yourself up to date.