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What to expect from the next model year Prius
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Comments
I'm following this thread with interest. If the tires are not LLRT, then would it not be WORSE for the Prius, since there must be some other explanation why there have been reports of crosswind handling?
The LLRT would be easily fixed... :confuse:
This time however you're 30+ years behind the times. The NHTSA tests are about to be changed at their own initiative because they themselves did a study last year and came to the conclusion that their own tests indicated .... NOTHING!!!
They stated on the Safercar.gov website that they had last made adjustments to the tests in the 70s and 80s and their own tests were outdated. The statement that they made was that there was little correlation between their own tests and real world situation. Too many people were getting hurt/killed by supposedly 'safe' vehciles. They solicited comments from the public for ways to improve the 'predictability' of the tests. Essentially the rest of the world and the IIHS all do the tests one way while the NHTSA does it another way.
If you buy cars or make decisions on the NHTSA ratings you are putting yourself at risk.....at their own admission. But continue on in your darkness. It's great to be 30 yrs out of date.
Here for example are the 'real' crash test ratings for these types of cars.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=40
Really? Because I thought that the Yukon Hybrid was NEW for 2008.
Like other hybrids, the Tahoe and Yukon are equipped with regenerative brakes that capture energy normally wasted during braking and use it to recharge the battery. A new air-conditioning unit requires less power and thus uses less fuel. And Tahoe Hybrid rides on lightweight aluminum wheels with tires that have low rolling resistance.
Go ahead and LYAO as you shoot yourself in the foot.
Now the wind buffeting is a minor issue but it is noticable because of the design of the high profile and relatively narrow wheelbase. It's not a huge issue but it's there nonetheless. It's one of the reasons I believe that the new Gen 3 next summer will a little lower, wider and longer.
If you claim NHTSA is out of date, but that IIHS does it differently, yet both agree that Subaru tops the list for all models.
Lets see this Safecar.gov quote that all CURRENT government ratings are useless. Why are YOU quoting data from the 70's and 80's and saying I'm 30-years behind? They said no such thing in their 2005-2009 Plan,
Through the combined efforts of NHTSA, Congress, states, local law enforcement, public safety groups and industry, the nation has made major strides in reducing fatalities and injuries in motor vehicle crashes.
An effective way to help consumers enhance the market for safety is to provide them with more comparative vehicle safety information, including crash test ratings and available safety features. Increasingly, consumers are demanding such information and are basing their purchasing decisions on it.
So what exactly are you basing your safety assumptions on? The Informed for Life site claimed to use both NHTSA and IIHS government ratings, but in the end, they clearly just picked their own numbers.
Are you defending drum brakes as the epitomy of safety? Do all Toyotas come with standard 4-wheel ABS yet? I know in 2005 only the fronts were standard, with others moving to 4-wheel disk/ 4-wheel antilock long before them.
The only company I know that is behind the times on safety is Toyota. Even if they fixed the problem, they leave a foul taste in my mouth.
Clearly it is useless to argue against the propaganda minister in his own forum. It is clear that you have a predisposition to argue in favor of the Prius in spite of all available evidence.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius_tires.html
Even if they fixed the problem, they leave a foul taste in my mouth. "
Just to be fair, that article deals with the GEN 1 Prius, not the current model.
So technically, they are 'lower rolling resistance' because of surface area. Just not tread compound. For those that don't know; traction, breaking, and accident avoidance in general is improved as tread area is increased (so long as the tread is good). At the same time, fuel usage goes down.
They are still sacrificing safety in the name of the almighty
dollarMPG. The Prius drivetrain is not as impressive as you might think, considering all the other sacrifices they have to make to get over 40 MPG.kthx. bye
Why would you compare MPG of vehicles of different types? That's where the Outback/Prius conversation started.
Then I was responding to a 'mathematical' comparison of the Outback vs. Prius safety, which like you say is bogus to begin with, but on top of that the math was bogus.
Then there's those that want you to believe that the government is trying to kill us all with faulty safety data. That the worst thing you could do is trust the NHTSA ratings. Its a conspiracy! I doubt that very much.
I think of the Prius as among the least likely vehicles out there to be able to AVOID an accident, let alone survive it. Its as stable as a pig on iceskates, with arthritis in the back feet.
Fortunately, the best mileage occurs in the city, where high speed crashes are less likely. And both major Prius wrecks I saw this year were on a 65mph highway.
In your quote it talked about the Yukon / Tahoe hybrids. It said nothing about the Prius. That was your own biased interpretation, incorrect BTW.
It said '...like other hybrids the Tahoe and Yukon are equipped with regenerative brakes that capture energy normally wasted during braking ....' PERIOD, new subject,
IT says nothing about the Prius and LRRT's.
2008 Prius specs, Gen 2, are 185 / 65 R15 or 195 / 55 R16 depending on model
Regarding the NHTSA tests there's a long discussion on the website of the 'Enhancements' needed....Here's a sample
Eighty-seven percent of MY 06 vehicles received four- or five- stars for the driver.
Consequently, the side NCAP ratings are reaching the point of providing little discrimination
between vehicles. Since the fleet has changed both in terms of weight and front end
characteristics, and since the side impact occupant protection systems have improved over the years, it is necessary to revisit the design of the side test to better reflect what is occurring in the real world when serious injuries result.
Approaches to enhancing Side NCAP
• The agency can use NCAP to encourage head protection by using the pole test
proposed for FMVSS No. 214 until such time as the rule is fully phased-in. This test
would continue to measure performance while at the same time indicate to consumers the importance of good head protection devices.16 Some research will be needed to develop a new rating system. Also, since both the ES-2re and SID-IIs dummies were specified for use in the proposed FMVSS No. 214 pole test, a decision will be made on whether one or a combination of these dummies would be used for ratings in the NCAP program.
• Research that focuses on the assessment of the injury mechanisms in a fully equipped side impact air bag and window curtain fleet needs to be conducted. The purpose is to evaluate how serious injuries occur in a fleet fully equipped with inflatable head protection and develop test procedures to reflect these impact conditions. The outcome of this research could be used to further raise the level of side impact protection. More research is needed, as outlined below:
• A new barrier test protocol. The research will evaluate the side impact crash
conditions that generate serious injuries to the occupants of the struck vehicles in
the new fleet. This includes examining vehicle orientation at impact, vehicle
trajectory at impact (e.g. barrier impact angle), and impact location.
• Increase speed. This strategy would potentially address the serious injuries that
occur in the 21-25 mph delta-V range. The 21-25 mph delta-V range has the
highest number of serious injuries (5,638) in vehicle-to-vehicle side crashes.
• Increase barrier weight, change geometry, and/or modify stiffness
characteristics. This is an opportunity to refine barrier characteristics as the fleet
changes. It is also a chance to evaluate the different MDB characteristics around
the world in hopes of developing one common barrier. This strategy could adopt
the IIHS barrier or build on previous research to develop other methods.
• Use of new dummies, such as WorldSID. Considerable effort by industry and
governments has been devoted to development of WorldSID, a new 50th
percentile side impact male dummy. NHTSA is evaluating the WorldSID
dummy. If development progresses to the stage that it is ready for incorporation
into NHTSA’s test dummy regulation (49 CFR Part 572), inclusion in side NCAP
would follow.
• Develop additional lateral injury criteria. If new dummies are used, the agency
would take full advantage of new dummy capabilities to measure additional
lateral injuries.
If you read the whole discussion you will see that they state that the test criteria were first set up in the late 70's. A few minor adjustments have been made since then but nearly the entire fleet is 4 or 5 star.
Golly Gee you're only 6-1/2 years out of date!!!!! You do realize that since the Gen2 came out there are no such thing as LRRT's on any of the OEMs. How can you make a post like that based on completely inaccurate data? Pretty soon it will be 2004 and you can bring yourself up to date.
In your own words you said "none of the Original Equipment Manufacturers used LRRTs." Incorrect BTW.
My only interpretation is that you are easily offended by someone who correctly challenges your own limited knowledge and misinterpretation of reference matierial. PERIOD. new subject.
P195/65R15
P205/55R16
P215/45R17
Yup, all bigger than the Prius tires.
And we're on Gen. 10 actually. Maybe thats where you got the wrong numbers quoting the car that was built in 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Corolla_E140
Of course they want to improve year-to-year. How else would they make progress? Like they have over the last 30 years. They have improved, the tests have worked, and cars on average are safer. So they have to up the standards to discern the good from the average.
You said it was because they were admitting that people were dying because unsafe cars were incorrectly labeled. That's your own propaganda ministry at work, nothing more.
You'll never figure it out. I think somewhere in there you know you're flailing like you have a bag over your head. But if you to stay on the offense to save face... its not gonna work.
However I do see where you might have been confused by the wording. To be precise.... There have been no LRRTs on the Prius model since the end of the Gen 1s in Sept 2003.
This subject was about the Prius nothing else. You jumped the Yukon/Tahoe into it somehow and for some unknown reason.
Yes for two months the new Corolla model has larger tires and we'll have to wait for the new Prius model next summer to finish the comparison.
But your two original statements were faulty and not founded in fact. That's all I wanted to prove. Just be precise and don't let bias get in the way of a rational viewpoint.
Congressional interest has also indicated a need for a more comprehensive review of the NCAP.
In April of 2005, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) published a report based on its study of NCAP.9 The study examined the impact of NCAP on vehicle safety and investigated opportunities to enhance its effectiveness. The GAO’s general recommendations were that “NHTSA examine the direction of the New Car Assessment Program to ensure that it maintains its relevance in improving vehicle safety, including identifying tests that best address the fatalities occurring on the nation’s roads,” and that “NHTSA enhance the presentation and timeliness of the information provided to the public.” More specifically, the GAO cited the recent abundance of four- and five-star ratings and suggested that pending changes to
compliance testing that would render NCAP’s tests less meaningful. It also pointed out that NHTSA must update NCAP to stay current with changes in the characteristics of the fleet.
NHTSA generally agreed with GAO’s findings.
Reading between the lines for those that need it... The GOA directed the NHTSA to get moving and update its 30 yr old tests because these current tests predict little or nothing. The NHTSA generally agreed with GAO's findings
"Any OEMs" read correctly is "Any original equipment manufacturers". No bad reading comprehension, I'm not a mind reader. I don't care what you meant beyond what you said.
The 2008 'model' is the gen-10 Corolla.
It is only logical that they update standards to continually improve safety accross the board. Making slight improvements is not the same as what you were saying, that the standards are useless.
The GOA directed the NHTSA to get moving and update its 30 yr old tests because these current tests predict little or nothing.
Don't interpret 'between the lines' as part of your propaganda ministry. That is NOT what they are saying. All vehicles have come up to spec, so its time to change the spec. It does not say they predict little or nothing. It means most cars are now relatively safe due to the successful testing, and they need to see how much safer the excellent ones are from average.
Today's passenger vehicles are designed to be more crashworthy than they used to be, largely thanks to this testing. Still, over 30,000 occupants die in crashes on U.S. roads each year.
The very success of the NCAP means remaining differences in performance among most new vehicles in full-width tests are small. This doesn't mean important crashworthiness differences no longer exist. They do exist, and additional crash test configurations can highlight these differences. One such test is the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's (IIHS) frontal offset crash. Full-width and offset tests complement each other. Full-width tests are especially demanding of restraints but less demanding of structure, while the reverse is true in offsets.
Safecar
Go ahead and read it. Notice when they say "23 years later, the standard is the same as it was in 1978." That was 2001. It follows with a long list of improvements.
You actually haven't managed to make many posts without making significant errors either, so I wouldn't bother sounding superior.
But like I said you'll never figure it out. I see you troll the Prius boards defending safety. I have no doubt you use bias to form your arguments.
The 2008 Prius weighs more than the 2009 Corolla. 2009 Corolla's shoes are wider accross the range. Even the 2004 Camry, which was of roughly equal weight to the Prius, had an extra inch of contact patch.
2008 Prius wears shoes designed for cars 300-400lbs lighter than itself.
The point I was trying to make, but we both got lost on how many generations of Corolla there are, and which one is which.
I get the feeling that the 2009 Prius will be a real porker, close to 2009 Camry weight. Let us indeed see if they follow up with mid-size car tires, as that is what the Prius ought to have always had.
Indeed I was correct, that compared to other vehicles of its size, Toyota always fitted tires that had less resistance while rolling to the Prius, likely to improve fuel economy. That works the same with any car, but they wanted to exaggerate the improvements of their Synergy Drive. They do not have to be of a LRRT material to achieve that effect. But I guarantee it is at the cost of braking and accident avoidance.
I'm sure it does just fine in crash worthiness, as indeed almost all cars tested are getting A's and B's. There are few genearlly 'unsafe' cars in a crash. However, I like to avoid crashes altogether, and NHTSA is making it a primary goal to study accident avoidance.
That is something that is as of yet untested and unverified. But do a google search for 'Prius' and 'wet' and you'll see what I mean. Its not the most stable vehicle out there.
People buy it for MPG. Great, it is the best out there. No argument. But please don't pretend it's the best thing since sliced bread for everyone and all purposes. You do make some concessions with most cars, and this is no different.
We all know its not among the fastest, or the sportiest, or the best handling, even the most comfortable vehicles on the road. IMO, you could add not the safest to that list. It may be the best fuel sipper.
We all have our priorities.
-- Front/rear disc brakes?
-- Sturdier, less cheesey plastic dash?
-- More adjustments for front seats?
-- More powerful heater?
I do love the mileage, mind you. But I have to tell people, when asked, that it is basically a low-end car (think Corolla) with an advanced power train. Is there hope for improvements in 2009?
As to your specific questions, only the builders/designers know and it's doubtful we'll know anything before Jan.
I don't own a Prius (mostly because I am unwilling to stand in line behind dozens of other buyers who are willing to buy a Prius on the dealers terms (often above MSRP)), but EVERYONE I know who drives a Prius loves the vehicle. Only one person I have spoken to has had a problem. A failed ECM after 110,000 miles on her 2002 Prius.
I will not be swayed by anecdotal evidence from a driver who doesn't understand the any mechanical device requires a minimum of maintenance. I won't blame the car. I would blame the driver who does not perform regular maintenance on the vehicle. Any driver who does not at least casually inspect the most important piece of safety equipment regularly (tires) deserves some inconvenience.
I don't own a Prius (mostly because I am unwilling to stand in line behind dozens of other buyers who are willing to buy a Prius on the dealers terms (often above MSRP))
I don't know where you're getting these quote over MSRP, but I recently got quotes for a loaded Touring edition Prius from 6 dealers -- half on the east coast (Virginia), half in the West (Colorado, New Mexico), and NONE were over MSRP and most were under MSRP, with the best about $900 under MSRP.
I, however, decided to wait for the 2009 model.
I have already purchased a new vehicle that only gets average MPG that I plan to enjoy for about 3-4 years. I will probably revisit the next generation Prius or another model that gets similar mileage in it's 2012-2013 model year.
The new Prius design would have been out for at least 3 years by then giving them plenty of time to fix glitches and adjust production capacity to demand.
If you are going to wait, you might as well wait longer and get the new 2010 model.
(Notice the Toyota confirmation about the lithium ion battery feature of the 2009 next-generation Prius.)
Perhaps some dealers would like you to buy now and not wait, so they are suggesting there will be no change.
And don't you just hate those cheap *plastic* triangular windows in back? Scratch-magnets, for sure. And it probably only saves 15 grams of weight.
The 2009's are being built now as we speak and will ship in August. There are no significant changes of any kind, packages, color, equipment, etc. Unofficially Toyota has said same to some key people in the industry, including some here at Edmunds.
The 2009's will be exactly the same as the 2008's. The 2010's which will arrive in Summer 2009 will be different. They however will not have Lithium Ion batteries. The Li-Ion batteries will only be ready for CY 2010 or MY 2011 and then probably only in very limited quantities as a 'Premium' option to the standard NiMH batteries.
It may be called a 2010 model, but it will appear early in 2009 -- well before the normal 2010 introduction. Some have said it will appear in January 2009, others suggest June 2009. Either way, the new model will be worth the wait to me.
.......Oh the irony. By saying dealers have 2008 Prius on their lots you have proved yourself to be a liar, uninformed and stupid.
Thanks!
Also, wouldn't it be nice if Toyota and some of the "brighter minds" in our research divisions "U.S." got together and made a battery that fullfilled the total needs of all hybrids? I hope its coming!!
This is accurate:
In Sept of this year the 09s will arrive and they will be exactly like the 08s
In Jan of 09 the Chairman of Toyota will make a major announcement about the introduction of the new Gen 3 Prius and a 'Lexus Prius'.
The 'line off ' for this vehicle is April 09 meaning it should arrive here in the Summer
It will have a improved NiMH battery pack.
It will not have a Li-Ion battery pack because none of the vehicle makers are certain about this technology .... yet.
This is speculation:
It will cost $10000 more. More than what? More than a base model at $22000, if so then it would be a bargain @ $32000.
No pricing has been put out officially. Everything is internet chatter.
This is wrong:
The 09s and or the '10s next summer will have a plugin option. Toyota has said nothing on this subject other than they are testing various options now.
The 2009 Prius will be the same as 2008s.
The 2010 model will be the new model with the optional solar panel.
Let's see: If that Prius with the solar panels (costing $32,000) get 50miles/gallon, for 15,000 miles (a year driving), you'd need 300 gallons of gas.
If instead you'd get a Honda Civic EX (costing at most $18,000), which gets 30 miles/gallon, you'd need 500 gallons.
So annually you'd save 200 gallons; even if the the price goes up to $5.00/gallon, you'd save $1,000/year.
You'd need, then, 14 years to recoup the extra $14,000 (not counting the tax on the extra cost), you've spent buying that Prius instead of the Honda.
It doesn't sound like a bargain to me!
As I suggested earlier, it will be available in by the summer of 2009 (if not earlier). I read from a fairly official Toyota source (I can;t remember which) that it will have Lithium-Ion batteries. There have been rumblings that this might have changed to question it. However, Toyota is sufficiently confident in Li-Ion battery technology that they will be producing them in a joint venture starting in 2009. Perhaps these batteries will make it into the next gen Prius by the summer of 09.
On a final note, I don't know how you've been talking to, but I've been getting sales offers on Priuses that are either on the lot or on their way to the lot not yet sold. This was true of dealers I was in contact with in Virginia, Maryland, Colorado and New Mexico. So I am neither a liar, uninformed or stupid (such comments are truly uncalled for). I just do my research before I open my mouth.
I'm still waiting for the next gen Prius which I expect to see in 6-12 months in 2009. I even prefer the look of the new one.
But Toyota would be wise to keep the standard Prius at the current price. Honda's trying hard to nip them on the low end and the new Honda hybrid-only model will squeeze their market share seriously if Toyota gives it a chance.
If what your golf buddy said is true, then why is it so quiet in Japan? hush hush? Hmmmm. If the car was the same as 08, then where are they???? they would be somewhere. Retooling, please. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 09 somewhere.
Dealer says long long wait for 09, the cars are not in manufacturing much less out of engineering stages. My 09 Prius is coming from largest Toyota dealer in mid-west, I signed agreement that I must pay the MSRP listed online at Toyota web site.
Toyota said almost nothing about 2009 car, why? Because it must still be in planning stages, otherwise they would be screaming come and get it. No lots of bad information and guessing out there, Take what Toyota says to the bank. The solar cell talk, yeah, possible, who knows.
If it's the next-gen 2010 model that people are "waiting for", maybe the title of this discussion needs to be changed?
Most importantly ...... you misread the post. The $10000 premium was discussing the plug in option. I don't think that you've spent much time in the hybrid forums to understand the background to the $10000 premium question.
You might want to familiarize yourself with some of the posters who are chomping at the bit to get a PHEV Prius or Volt. Ask yourself this question. 'Why are they so eager to pay up to $40000 to get one of these puppies?'
Actually I think that you are right - but for a completely different reason ( unstated but implied ) - but you chose the wrong vehicle for your comparo.