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What to expect from the next model year Prius
Hi all,
I'm new to the board, but it looks like good info and friendly folks. I test drove a 2006 Prius and fell in love. Doing my research and comparisons now. Found info re: "all new" engine w/increased mpg and cheaper MSRP for the 2009 (avail in '08), yet the Fed tax credit will be eliminated by then.
Sooo, the ? is, does anyone have an opinion on whether the price decrease would make up for no tax credit? Yeah, I know, it might be hard to tell and I really don't want to wait that long to buy one frankly. It would mean pumping money into my 1997 Ford Contour w/107K mi and I think that's a mistake! Ideas? Thanks so much.
I'm new to the board, but it looks like good info and friendly folks. I test drove a 2006 Prius and fell in love. Doing my research and comparisons now. Found info re: "all new" engine w/increased mpg and cheaper MSRP for the 2009 (avail in '08), yet the Fed tax credit will be eliminated by then.
Sooo, the ? is, does anyone have an opinion on whether the price decrease would make up for no tax credit? Yeah, I know, it might be hard to tell and I really don't want to wait that long to buy one frankly. It would mean pumping money into my 1997 Ford Contour w/107K mi and I think that's a mistake! Ideas? Thanks so much.
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Thanks for the link, interesting stuff. A couple of notes:
1. It is electrically driven, so it would impact the HSD, and the effect would be worse when the vehicle was accelerating - the traction battery would have to run the supercharger AND the electric drive motors. This would deplete the battery faster.
2. ONE PSI boost?
3. I'm not sure if adding boost to an Atkinson cycle engine would increase power. On an Otto cycle engine it works, but the Atkinson cycle is deliberately intended to work with less pressure. I don't know enough to have a definite opinion, just a question.
Buy now! There is no way the Prius will be less money than it is now. Unless they cannot sell them and have deep discounts. I would not count on that. Also the credits are still at the top dollar. They will go down soon I would imagine that Toyota is near 60k units for this year. Your 10 year old car is not worth a lot. I would not use it as a trade-in. Get your own financing or better yet pay cash.
Most Prius officionados think it will cost a lot more, because of the battery (lighter weight) and charger. But mostly because it will be in great demand initially.
This is a conundrum for many prospective owners. It's a high tech. car, and high tech things go "obsolete" fast. The current car has been shown to last a long time (mileage wise) in taxi service and has been pretty trouble free, with only a few owners having problems. I'm planning on getting a 2006 as soon as I can.
One remark I found entertaining - there are a lot of discussions on how expensive the traction battery will be to replace. One owner phoned Toyota USA and asked how many had failed. The answer was none so far! In any generation Prius. The cost isn't too bad anyway - currently around $2000. I think they can be rebuilt as well, as they are modular.
Unless Congress extends the incentives program which I think is unlikely the $3150 incentive is very valuable now in today's dollars.
I'm hoping if I buy a 2006 and it proves as reliable as I expect, it will hold its value. Consumer's shows hybrids (Honda included) as losing more in depreciation dollars than coventional, however, as gas prices increase, reliability stays sound, and people want these cool cars I personally don't think the depreciation will be as much. Any thoughts on that? BTW, can I still order a 2006? I read on Toyota site they are taking orders as of 7/12 for 2007...
I was offered one a few weeks ago here in Canada, but I passed. For a few thousand $ extra I'm getting a new one!
You are right re: prices. Just saw an ad here in SD for $28K for a 2005 w/6300 mi. Granted probably top of line, but no tax credit so doesn't seem like a deal to me.
Will you purchase an extended warranty? I've read one can be had on the east coast of US for $875 and used anywhere...sounds good...any thoughts out there?
Battery - one member of another forum asked a Toyota exec (in parts as I recall), "how many batteries have failed?". The answer was none, in any Prius, any model year. Remember there are some Prii being operated as taxis, and there is a report that some of them are over 200,000 mi now and still going strong. The member then checked on battery replacement cost - about $2000. I don't think the battery is an issue.
Extended warrenty - I don't like extended warrenties, especially on a Nissan, Toyota, etc. because they are so reliable. I am going to eventually purchase one. Some of the parts of this car that have failed (on a very few owners) are very expensive. The approx. $900 is worth it just for peace of mind!
I'll check into the extended warranty. Is the std 3 yrs/36K bumper to bumper? Wonder if the extension differs depending on state as I'm in CA where the battery warranty is longer already. Anyone know?
Another option I'm considering is driving my son's 1991 Honda Accord EX (178K mi) while he's away at college and wait for the 2009, however, I'm thinking the price of the vehicle will be at least what it is now if not higher and no tax credit. Depends on how much one drives on how long it wouold take to make up the difference even at double the mileage. I don't drive more than 12-13K yr. Decisions, decisions!! :-)
The std. warrenty is bumper to bumper. The extension is the same all over the US.
As for value, this brings up a contentious issue - is buying a Prius an "economic" plus? I don't think you will recover the extra cost of the vehicle (compared to other similar non-hybrids) in the fuel savings, unless fuel doubles in price soon (the way things are going it could). What you have to consider are:
1. The Prius has the least impact on the environment of any car (I'm told - let the arguments begin
2. The Prius has about as much interior room and luggage capacity as a Camry (Prius 96 ft^3 Camry 101 ft^3, Prius lug. 14 ft^3, Camry lug 14.5 ft^3), yet is about the size of a Corolla on the exterior.
3. The Prius is just about the "coolest" car - at least I think so.
4. The Prius, though expensive for a "small car", is still relatively inexpensive, so owning it for the "cool factor" is reasonable.
5. Because of the above, if you want to make a statement of your concern for the environment, this is the car to do it with. Many do. Personally, if I was making an environmental statement, I'd do it with a bicycle, but to each her/his own!
At pathstar1 noted you might be surprised by what the resales are. Do your own investigation via the web using Edmunds or kbb as a guide and see if the resales are in line.
Typically any Toyota or Honda depreciates about 10% a year from retail value to retail value.... some 'soft' vehicles might go down faster; e.g. Tundra's now.
As an estimate a 2 y.o. $26000 Prius with 25-30K miles on it should be able to be sold for about $20000 or so. Trade in should be about $17000, more if you negottiate well.
The warranty issue is one which is personal but as noted above there are parts, not the hybrid or drivetrain part, but the normal car part that are covered by the 3/36 Basic warranty that are really expensive to repair. As vehicles become rolling computers any computer or electronic system might run you $1500 - 5000 depending. This is true of Acura's, BMW, VW's, Toyota's. This is the primary benefit of the extended 7/100 Warranty.
I am considering it for my 2005 Prius for peace of mind on the non hybrid electronic components.
The current model will cost you less than the 2009 IMO depending on what Congress does but driving a reliable preowned vehicle is even less costly in every situation.
Would anyone know whether the 2009 Prius will change to use only the electric drive motor to propel the vehicle with the engine relegated to only providing charge for the batteries; or will it remain in the same configuration as the current model, where both the engine and electric motor are used to propel the vehicle?
We will not hear any of that info probably until late 2007.
The [Prius] redesign is likely for the 2010 or 2011 model year. The next generation probably will have plug-in capability, as in letting you plug it in to your house's grid to recharge and allowing you to drive on full electricity for the first 40 or so miles. It also may have a rheostat so drivers can select a performance or fuel-economy mode. (Automotive News). The Automotive News reference points to information contained on the Autoweek website.
Love where Toyota's going, but hope they can bring the car to market sooner. Put me on the list!
Toyota would not allow the Prius to go from 2003 to 2010 or 2011 without a re-design.
The next gen Prius is expected for 2009, then maybe they make plug-in an option in 2011.
Toyota would not allow the Prius to go from 2003 to 2010 or 2011 without a re-design. "
There have been recent media reports that Toyota is delaying the next generation of their models to try and tighten up the quality controls, due to the recent spate of recalls experienced by the company. However I think it was a 6 month or 1 year delay in development.
"Does anyone know whether the 2009 Prius will come standard as a plug-in or if plugging in will be an option? "
Solar, geothermal, and wind powered. It will require no gas or electric plug in, although as a backup a 1,000 mile radius wireless Internet adapter will be offered.
There will also be a fluid dynamics perpetual motion option.
The Oil and Electric companies love the new model and are giving it their full support.
Power to the People,
MidCow
Wow what a plateful.
The TCH is here already and the Sienna could be expected in 2008 as a 2009 model since the Estima exists already.
The RAV? Possibly
The Sequoia and 4Runner. Nope, they are trucks. Until the hybrid Tundra is shown the two SUV's will be somewhat later, if ever.
Bet on this: Gen3 Prius in late 2008 as a 2009 model.
Not very likely, the RAV4 was not designed with an HSD powertrain in mind.
This is supposed to be enjoyable right?
It's good that you qualified this by saying 'I personally...' because your opinion is not based on fact. You probably didn't realize that ...
.. the warranty on the hybrid system ( battery pack ) is 10 yrs/150,000 miles in some states! 6/100,000 elsewhere!
.. Toyota and DOE have tested NiMH batteries separately to 180K and 150K and found no deterioration in performance at all!
.. There are no reports of Toyota battery packs wearing out at all. This is now the 7th year in the US so the 5 year period you mention is long gone.
.. On Toyota's website they state that the batteries should last the life of the vehicle. Typically this is 12-15 yrs and 250,000 miles on any Toyota.
.. Do a google on quotes from Toyota on replacing the battey pack. You'll come up with $3000 as of today. But none have ever been replaced.
So if in 12-15 yrs which would be about the year 2018... and you still owned your faithful Prius... and finally the battery pack gave out at 200,000 miles. What would you do with a 12 y.o. car that had 200,000 mile on it? You'd do what every other owner does with any vehicle. Get rid of it and get a new one that will take you another 12/200,000.
It appears that you've been out of touch with the automotive world for the last 2-3 years. There has been so much information/discussion all over the net about the life-expectancy of the battery pack being at least 10 years that this whole question has disappeared.
But you do have the right to remain skeptical. In the 1490's skeptics like this were called 'flat worlders'. If you sailed too far west you would fall off the edge of the world. It's no different on the subject of battery life... drive too far and the batteries will die on you. It's just not true...in either case.
One point the OP hasn't fully developed is the money "saved on gas". Don't buy a Prius expecting to recover some kind of extra cost money on gas. He/she should consider the following:
First, it's difficult to calculate how much extra you are paying on the Prius for the hybrid components - there isn't a non-hybrid Prius to compare to.
Second, you are operating the most fuel efficient vehicle commonly sold (now that the Insite is dead), with the lowest emissions. That alone is significant. Your carbon load on the environment will be as low as you can get it unless you stop owning/operating fuel propelled vehicles.
Third, you can cost compare the Prius to other similar vehicles. As I have posted before, the Camry is very similar in cargo and interior room, and it's a Toyota. Oh look, a non-hybrid Camry costs about the same as a Prius!
Fourth, many owners purchased the Prius because they wanted to be on the forefront of the new lower carbon load technology.
Fifth, always remember the Prius is NOT an electric vehicle. It's a hybrid, powered exclusively by burning gasoline in an ICE where the hybrid technology allows:
a) the internal combustion engine (ICE) to be operated in a much more efficient mode (Atkinson cycle). The electric components supplement the torque as required because the ICE, when operated this way has lower HP and torque.
b) Capture of normally wasted energy (brake heat). This regenerative braking also extends brake component life - reportedly at least doubling it.
c) Seamless shutdown and restart of the ICE at lights etc. to save fuel that would be wasted idling.
It isn't a perfect design, but it's pretty good!
Why would toyota admit to their battery packs failing? Wouldn't that come across as a biased opinion seeing how Toyota already tried to keep it on the D.L. when they had a massive recall on new 2006 models back in march? I admit to exaggerating the amount in the first message, but it is better than denying the problem all together. To me it doesn't matter the price or replacing the battery pack is or if it is covered under warranty. Because if it is not costing you, dont you think it would be costing the company (TOYOTA) every time they have to replace a $3000 battery pack?
2.
Where did you get that estimate? because it is very hard to find the answer to that question seeing as i asked it in another forum and only one person responded saying that he couldn't find that information anywhere. Everyone else in that forum ignored the question and kept talking about how great this technology is. Well it could be better. My friend has a new camry hybrid and is only getting mid 30's mpg. And my cousins regular diesel golf gets 800 miles to a tank of gas. Another diesel engine Vw is developing can get 52 mpg. If i am correct that is better mileage than the prius. So like i said in my very first message I would really like it if they had a diesel prius, not diesel electric hybrid, just a prius body with a diesel engine For some reason no one will respond to that part. Even though it could potentially get better mpg. But no, everyone wants to say how perfect their prius is now, and how electricity is the way to go. How do you think, in the US, most of electricity is generated? Not by dams, no by gas and diesel generators, so while you are driving your little electric car, think about how most of the electricity is being produced. So that is why there is such a big issue for alternative fuels for cars. So for once why dosn't the us do what the rest of the world does and use diesel engines?
& 3.
How many states offer 10 year warrenty? Because the six year doesnt cover a problem at 7,8, or even 9 years.
I am sorry that i offended you, but think about how your supposed "plug in prius" is affecting the world around you. Trace the electricity chain back to where it began, the fossil fuel generators! If i am right you will be increasing the harmful gas output of your prius. Also those cars are estimated at over 40000 dollars. Do you really want to spend that much? So consider what I said carefully and please do not correct any spelling or grammar errors, because that is not the point of this message.
1. My own view is that Toyota, or any manufacturer, doesn't announce warranty repair work. Thus if a battery did fail for Toyota or Honda or Ford none of the three would announce anything they would just fix it.
But... if it was a serious problem, the affected owners would be howling on the net like on the Camry transmission issues. It would be ALL over the net. The Internet is silent on this subject.
Massive recalls on the 2006 Prius??? What are you talking about?
2. I did a google search on the cost to replace a NiMH battery and one article quoted a Toyota spokeswoman as stating the price was $3000 but in fact they had never replaced one. Here's one link..NiMH batteries
Excerpt:
And Toyota claims that not one has required a battery replacement due to malfunction or "wearing out." The only replacement batteries sold--at the retail price of $3000--have been for cars that were involved in accidents. Toyota further claims that the nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery packs used in all Prius models are expected to last the life of the car with very little to no degradation in power capability
You aren't seriously comparine a TCH to a Golf are you??? Please, be serious. A Prius is closer to a Golf and they both get about the same FE.
3 I miswrote the warranties.
In 45 States it's 8 yrs / 100000 miles.
In the 5 CARB states it's 10 yrs / 150000 miles.
Myself I am for a diesel hybrid that uses renewable biofuel.
The reason that hybrids are so successful here is that until this year diesel fuel in the US was of the worst kind possible and most diesel vehicles didn't pass the CARB states emissions tests. As a result ALL manufacturers did not sell diesel in these states. But these are 5 of the biggest population states so if diesel can't be sold there then there's no use to sell it in the other 45 states. It's all or nothing. Hybrids are equal to diesel in saving fuel. That was the only way to put new fuel-saving technology into use in the year 2000. It could be sold in all 50 states, diesel could not.
Yes plug-ins use power generated by coal and diesel and nuclear sources. No one denies that. The big question is how much extra would a fleet of PHEV use. Last week the Federal Govt just published an article that 80% of all vehicles on the road now could be powered by the grid using offpeak capacity. The extra cost? The extra pollution, if any?
Which cars are estimated at $40000? Conversions of the current Prius to PHEV cost about $10000 but the new Prius in 2008 and the new GM PHEV are likely to be no more expensive than the current vehicles in the mid $20K range.
The stumbling block to make this viable has been the dirty diesel fuel in the US ( until this year ). There was no incentive to build a diesel hybrid because it couldn't be sold in every state. In 2009 it will be possible. In 2010 Toyota/Isuzu have already announced that they will have one.
"........ always remember the Prius is NOT an electric vehicle. It's a hybrid, powered exclusively by burning gasoline in an ICE where the hybrid technology allows:
a) the internal combustion engine (ICE) to be operated in a much more efficient mode (Atkinson cycle)....
b) Capture of normally wasted energy (brake heat). This regenerative braking also extends brake component life - reportedly at least doubling it.
c) Seamless shutdown and restart of the ICE at lights etc. to save fuel that would be wasted idling.
It isn't a perfect design, but it's pretty good! "
Well put, and to which I would add that good is not the enemy of perfect, either.
The Prius is not about being an electric car but it is all about being an electric transmission.
I find it annoying that those boutique energy suppliers of lithium ion are trying to hijack the Prius for their own commercial interests and basically PHEV it into an electric car with all this plug-in crap.
The recapture of energy through regeneration when braking is much overated. The Prius is electronically limited to prevent more than 10Kw going back to battery. Ensures against the possibility of nasty battery explosions.
This recapture for later use appeals to a lot of people.
I do wonder how much recapturing actually goes on. If 80kw gets Prius to 60mph in 10 secs then 10kw regen would take it back to rest in 80 secs. And that's a long time, who's got that much patience ? Notwithstanding that natural forces will be dissipating quite a bit of that precious energy during this time.
Now, for a lot less money, I could fit a 50kw resistor to dissipate this energy as wasteful heat instead. That way I can offload the brakes somewhat. Brakes by their very nature, I think most will agree, are the one thing above all others, except the oil in the sump of course, that has an obvious wear component. A 50kw brake would be much more efficacious. The $89 rotor grinding I just had would buy quite a lot of gasoline.
Finally on diesel Prius. First,I want to see that diesel version start and stop frequently. Don't they smoke on starting ?
Second, the Prius HSD may benefit from a higher torque engine - allows more direct power to the wheels - but assuming already 259lbs-ft comes from MG2 the addition of 128 lbs-ft instead of 57 lbs-ft previously is going to make acceleration only 25% better and that's until the engine needs to turn above 2400rpm. Then, even the turbocharged torque from this diesel will roll away, a 75% speed increase to top rpm will be typically followed by a loss of 32% in torque. That's assuming Toyota's engine to have the same characteristic as the smaller 800cc engine fitted to the Smart Fourtwo.
T2
And i wasnt comparing the golf to the prius. I was meerly showing that a diesil could be just as efficient and that a diesil electric hybrid could be even more efficient.
And the toyota recall that was all over the news you somehow didnt hear about. What internet sites were you checking? It affected the prius and the camry. I am really beginning to think that your only sources are internet sites. Maybe you should take your eyes off the computer screne for a little while and read a book. It will do you good.
have you even read the latest magazines? In either motortrend, automobile, or car and driver, they had a little article about a plug in prius costing well above $40000 dollars. So who now is the one with their head not being in the "auto world" for the past "2-3 years"? If you seriously spent some time reading auto magazines you might find some new sources.
I read them all the time. There is no such article about a new plug-in costing above $40000. You are misreading the article - or making this up. It refers to modifying a current Prius with an aftermarket kit.
And i wasnt comparing the golf to the prius. I was meerly showing that a diesil could be just as efficient and that a diesil electric hybrid could be even more efficient.
No, you compared your brother's hybrid Camry to a Golf saying that the Camry only got in the 30's while you could get a diesel Golf which got in the 50's.
And the toyota recall that was all over the news you somehow didnt hear about. What internet sites were you checking? It affected the prius and the camry. I am really beginning to think that your only sources are internet sites. Maybe you should take your eyes off the computer screne for a little while and read a book. It will do you good.
Now this you are making up. There was no such recall on the Camry. Please just stick with facts. What there was on small Toyota cars ( including the Prius ) was a steering unit recall to reinforce the shaft. It was done on my 2005 and it took less than 15 min, cost nothing and was not an issue. This has nothing to due with hybrid systems or PHEV or diesel.
Now, if the traction battery were larger the car could recover more energy, but be aware, the amount of energy in the traction battery is not very great. It can take the car only a few miles at lower speed. In theory, a larger traction battery would translate into better mileage, but also higher weight and less cargo/passenger room and higher initial cost. Perhaps the next generation Prius will go this route, but we can't say for sure until we see one.
As far as the speculation on a diesel hybrid by other posters in this thread, in the US and Canada diesel is more expensive than gasoline - and the difference is about the same as the mileage difference, so I see no reason to go there at this time. In Europe diesel is subsidized (farm subsidy) and is less expensive. That's why it's popular there. There may be other reasons delaying a diesel hybrid car, such as noise/vibration when shutting down/starting at lights etc. but the fuel cost issue is probably the major one at present.
Like you said before I didn't follow your replies because you confused a number of issues into the same point...so as best as I can understand...
so i wasnt comparing the two hybrids i was showing that diesel engines are more efficient than ICE's. Therefore it would make sense to think that a diesel~electric could be more efficient.
link title there you can find all toyota recalls. And i do not think that 170,000 is a small recall by any stretch.
1 the hybrid system wasnt perfect, it could be better
2 my cousins diesel got 800 miles to a tank
Camry Hybrid Prius 06 VW golf diesel
Average User MPG 36.7 47.4 46.2
MPG Range 28 to 42 37 to 60 43 to 51
EPA estimates 40city 60 city 37 city
38hwy 51 hwy 41 hwy
Notice how the EPA estimates of the prius are inflated while the diesel gets better than EPA in average user MPG
New diesels will not be as bad for the environment
link title check yourself
This a faulty conclusion. The reason the price is $10000 extra is because it's a one of a kind aftermarket kit. It's not an OEM option manufactured right into the vehicle.
To put this to rest if the next Prius does have a plugin capability and the price is $40000. It won't sell. It won't happen though because Toyota wouldn't do such a ridiculous thing.
I am aware of the steering recall. I had it done on my 2005 Prius. It took less than 15 min to add a reinforcement. It was done during a normal oil change and it cost nothing and no inconvenience. To me it is a non-issue. Move on. It's over.
OK the old EPA values didn't reflect how people drive and the Prius numbers are too high, so what. The actual results you show that the Prius and the Golf are about equal, which is what I've been saying all along. There is no advantage to one or the other - except that diesels can't be sold in 5 of the most populous states until 2009 at the earliest.
The hybrid Camry is in a different class than the Golf, compare it to the Passat diesel.
New diesels may be better as you state. It remains to be seen. If they can't pass all the states emissions testing - at an economical price then it's the same situation as now.
If people were told they would have to drive like extemely slow grandparents to get the EPA milage estimates, how many people would change their driving style to get those estimates or is driving a prius merely a way to silently sneer I'M ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY & YOU AREN'T?
Thanks in advance.
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You can be sure that if it is practical, cool, and beneficial to the company, Toyota will make it. There is a small market currently for an EV. "Small market" refers to perhaps 100,000 sold over three years, rather than 3-4 times that.
Also on link title in the auto section there is a battery replacement station that would eliminate the long recharging sessions. The battery is simply pulled out of the bottom of the car and replaced with a battery that had been recharged from another car. You can find out more about this for yourself. This doesnt really relate to the prius though.