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Comments
Do ya think once they perfect the "plug ins" for the Prius maybe someone will think ... "hey lets do it for the the Camry Hybrid."
I can only keep my fingers crossed.
Gampa
It's all relative but expect to lose about 2-3 mpg when it gets real cold. Another 1 to 3 for storms (water or snow on the road and wind)
I read about it somewhere but I dont remember if it was this forum or or not.
I assume the dealer will give me the runaround unless there is a tsb on it.
Love the car otherwise. 34 to 42 mpg
It's NV2008-07 which is specific to certain VINs.
Supposedly takes the dealer 6 hours and requires virtually the complete disassembly of the dash.
Check with your dealer and see if your VIN is on the list.
I also agree that an EV mode button would be good for times like when I want to pull the car from the street into the garage and not have the ICE start. Maybe have it be more of an "EV request" button and have it wait to start the ICE until the car has been operated for a set period of time or the battery reaches a certain threshold.
And now for my "new" idea...
If Toyota comes up with a new and improved battery system in the next couple years, perhaps that saves weight and/or space, offer a retrofit to current TCH owners so we can get some of the trunk space back.
2. I wish the steering wheel were leather wrapped. While it may iun fact be leather, it sure doesn't feel like it. Small sacrifice, I know, for helping the environment.
3. Memory seating would be real nice, since I valet my car every day.
4. The volume control is way too insensitive. It goes all the way up to level 60. How about maying it go to level 30 and doubling the sensitivity, so I don't have to spend time away from driving.
5. I already overrode my speed lockout of my Navi and bluetooth, but they should really enable that in the future.
6. How about a little firmer, sportier ride. It rides like a Cadillac from the 1970s. Stiffer springs might make the difference.
While we're on the subject off the cruise control, would it be nice if there were two indicator lights on the dash; one to tell us the cruise control was on and the other to tell if it was engaged, like every other car in the world. It's a little frustrating not to know if it's engaged or just ready to be engaged. I know, these are petty things, but after a 200 mile weekend on the Interstate, this is how I believe the car could be improved. .
It can't be hard to do. I would pay for it as an option.
If they put it on all 400,000 Camry's they make then yes it would probably be $5-$10. However 99% of the folks that buy these are not in NYC and don't need them and the reality is in a mass production car they don't usually offer something as an option that less than 1% of the people need, especially if it is a low cost low profit item. Those types of things need to make it as a standard feature to hit the menu.
If I lived in the city I probably would never want a new car anyway
What, you are going to engage the CC during a turn?
What a boring world it would be if we were all alike.
I would be interested in knowing what a stong case for black sounds like. That truly is a personal choice as I can't imagine anyone wanting to pamper a black car (although millions do).
My TCH is Barcelona red. Red as in fire truck red.
I got it in April right off the truck. It was either that or a brown one with all the options, which I wanted.
This is my 3rd red vehicle. I've had 3 silver, 3 green, 1 blue. 2 white, 2 black, 1 brown, and 1 yellow.
I've been a car nut for years and the purchase of the TCH was partly to break myself of the habit of trading often. It's my "anti-car" medicine. So it really didn't matter to me much what it looked like. Perhaps the worse it looked the better (tough medicine).
I never expected my obsession with trading and keeping newer, more powerful cars would turn into an obsession with how long can I keep this and how much FE can I achieve.
My obsession has gone far enough, that the other day I said to my wife I found yet another way to modify my car to get even better gas milage. She crossed her arms and gave me that... What are you going to do now look? I said that I am cutting a hole in the floor so I can use my feet to help with the downhills. Osbsessed... whose obsessed???
Other than that, an EV button would be nice; but I understand Toyota's concern about people abusing it and killing the battery pack. i have so far been able to get 3 miles max in EV mode at 30 mph.
Another item would take advantage of the Nav system. I don't have the nav on my TCH, but a nice feature of the nav would be to use the GPS info and learn where you use EV mode and have a form of 'EV priority' to keep the car in EV as much as possible. Example: The last mile from home I am in a 50kmh/30mph residential zone with a few stop signs. I would like to see the car learn that I drive a certain pattern well within the EV parameters so when I stop for that stop sign it gives me more leeway on the gas peddal to stay in EV mode. The flip side to this is to also learn that my first minute or 2 is always within that same 'EV priority' area, so keep the engine off until I reach the major throughfare where I am going to use the ICE anyway. The 'priority' to me means that all the usual battery/ICE rules still apply.
To make matters worse, we went in on 1/29 because of the $1500 Toyota rebate on the Camry, no mention of it not being available on the Camry Hybrid. We were originally looking at a loaded RED V-6 XLE, which was sold by the time we got thru driving and filling everything out. So then we went and drove the Hybrid and since most of my wifes driving is in town and we live in a small city off I-35 it made since to get the better mileage with the Hybrid. Now we are once again coming down on the comp. screen showing the monies needed, the $1500 rebate is showing on the screen and I asked to make sure he had deducted the rebate when he says oh you cannot get the rebate on the Hybrid. I say what, since when? The rebate program specifically excludes the hybrid. Plus the is the last one in Red and my wife has wanted a red car for years now. Her last car was bought in '94, a loaded Suburban which we are going to sell ourselves. So here we are walk out or buy and maybe we cannot get another red Camry for quite awhile as Toyota is closing plants etc. So we go ahead and buy. then what happens the very next week Feb 09, they continue the $1500 rebate and do not exclude the Hybrid Camry! i call to see if there is someway to return the car and re buy it to get the rebate and they say no papers have already gone to the State of Texas! So now i feel like we really got screwed. Not to mention the Finance guy wouldn't even show us the Toyota long term warranty but sold us a 5 yr one with old republic for $2,500 that only covered 75,000 miles and we can extend it to a 7 year by coming up with another $1,400 within the next year. I canceled that after being on this site and have since bought a Toyota Platinum warranty.
WOW what a hassle all this has been. I have never had so much buyers remorse as this purchase! Oh I also am now cancelleing the gap coverage since we put down $13,000 plus they are now applying the $2,500 refund for the warranty cancellation off the rear of the financed aggreement. Now we will have another $477 coming off the rear end so that is almost $3,000 plus the $13,000 for a total of $16,000 leaving a balance financed of about $20,000 off a $33,000 car. So I see no need for Gap coverage as Toyotas hold their value and the note is going down every month we own it.
I am trying to be economical. Now, I am not comparing KIA Sephia to Mercedes S Class. Just a Camry Hybrid to Camry LE.
I am trying to understand why one would get Hybrid over regular LE.
Just from MPG and its pay back it doesn't make sense.
Let's say there's about 10 mile difference in gas milage.
a. 20,000 miles/25 mpg (Camry) = 800 gallons x $2.50 = $2,000
b. 20,000 miles/35 mpg (Cam. Hybd) = 571.43 gallons x $2.50 = $1,428
So close to $600 difference.
Price difference between LE and Hybrid is around $6,000+ (not to mention discount on LE vs. hardly any on Hybrid.
So if the gas price stays the same, it would take 10 yr. or 200K miles to pay itself.
If gas is up to $5.00 per gallon, then 5 yr. & 100K miles.
Is this all worth it?
Better ride? Better luxury? Better Performance?
Or worse? Reliability? Winding noise?
I am asking because I don't know.
Let's not talk about green. This might be a poor attitude but in order to work, all nations need to work together. To me, it would like people of all nations are in a same enclosed conference room (planet earth). Americans and Europeans and few Asian nations are abide by it. Meanwhile, people from other parts of the world are chain smoking. Quality of the air?
From a car perspective, it is still a Camry. Except for some cosmetic differences there is nothing different on the car. It just has a different powertrain and 5 cu.ft. of batteries in the trunk.
The hybrid is most comparable to the XLE.
I got a base hybrid for $26K.
To get an LE up to that level of features would put it around $27K. I just "built" an LE on the Toyota site to $27,119 with comparable hybrid features.
You get more car with the hybrid than the LE. Thus, you pay more. But you spend less on gas. And you get higher resale value. And you get to drive past a lot more gas stations.
Up to this point your analysis was accurate. But then you made two huge mistakes here.
The price difference isn't $6000+ and you ignored extra features on the TCH. BTW both vehicles have the same rebates and the same discounts, so you can apply them or you can ignore them it doesn't make any difference.
Then you missed one of the key components of the pricing difference...resale values.
Another key issue that almost everyone makes an error about is forecasting for themselves what they think the price of fuel will be down the road. So the first variable you have to determine is how long are you expecting to keep the vehicle and then how many miles will you drive per year ( you noted 20K per year ).
We ignore any green issues because that's just a personal perspective..so we'll just discuss the money issues using only the MSRPs.
2010 Camry LE ( steel wheels, keyless entry, no SR, w/ VSC standard now ).. $22800
2010 TCH base model ( steel whls, SKS, dual auto climate, no SR, w/ VSC ).. $26500
That's a $3700 difference in price base model to base model. However as larsb noted above the TCH is more equivalent to the 4cyl XLE Camry not the LE. But we'll continue for general interest the LE to base TCH.
Now here's the key personal variable...how long do you really expect to keep the vehicle? 3 yrs? 5 yrs? 10 yrs? Only you can answer that. We'll complete the equation after your response.
Wow just looked at the 2010 specs, the V6 has more power now than 2009 did.
Anyhow, the HP rating of the hybrid is 187 HP, and 337 lb-ft of torque
HP of the I4 is 169 and torque 167. an optional I4 is 176 HP and 171 lb-ft.
V6 is 268 HP and 248 lb-ft.
The HP and torque of the hybrid with a full charge is instant, you get full HP and torque, the others need to build the power up to its peak of 6000 RPM.
Another interesting thing, the build your camry doesn't list Hybrids, but the XLE model which is pretty close in features with the base I4 is $27,325. My '09 listed at $28,325, and it has a jbl sound system and XM radio, in addition to more power.
To me the 2 cars to compare are a TCH vs. an I4, but they should be as equally equiped as possible for a fair apples to apples comparison.
If the OP is just looking at the cheapest Camry that he/she can get calculating in the gas mileage, then it gets to be a tougher comparison where they have to include the cost of any options they WOULD buy but are included in the TCH.
As to the last paragraph that just can't be a valid comparo either. The least expensive Camry for basic transportation is a 1996 or 1997 with 150,000 miles or so ( just as valid as comparing a strippie new Camry to a relatively loaded TCH ). Or, to be more realistic compare a one year old TCH vs a new basic LE. Now there is a valid comparo. The one year old TCH will blow away the new basic LE.
Ah that my friend seems to be the best way to put it. I also like your comparisons!
I did find it interesting that you cant build your own TCH on the toyota site. What is the base price of the TCH now?
When comparing different cars, what constitutes a valid comparison? The OP is comparing a new LE vs. a new TCH, so my comments and comparisons were replying only to that scenario.
Also, while you are correct on the "tweener" comment that it is more expensive to get more HP, it still does not help the OP in making a decision. While there is a cost, is there enough value *to the buyer* to be willing to pay for it.
When we were buying our TCH, the HP difference between the I4 and the TCH was not considered at all. I was willing to live with the lower power output of the I4 and didn't need the extra HP. I chose the TCH over the I4 on other points. Everyone has different priorities or must haves in their new car purchase and they need to make those decisions within their own 'value for money' equation.
Maybe there are some changes in the wind. We've received a lot of ICE Camry's but we haven't received any 2010 TCH's yet and they can't be spec'd on the Toyota site. Why??
March 2009 delivery date for 2010 Camry hybrid - say wha?
Shortly after their official premiere at the Detroit Motor Show in January, Toyota announced pricing for the updated 2010 Camry and Camry Hybrid midsize sedans that will begin arriving at dealers in March 2009. The gasoline model's base MSRP will range from $19,395 for the Camry sedan with a new six-speed manual transmission to $29,045 for a fully equipped XLE with a six-speed automatic transmission. The Camry Hybrid carries a price tag of $26,150. Overall, the Camry's MSRP represents an overall increase of $281 or 1.2 percent over the 2009 MY.
2010 Toyota Camry and Camry Hybrid The most significant change on the 2010 Camry concerns the introduction of a new 2.5-liter four-cylinder engine for the standard, LE and XLE grades with 169-horsepower that can be combined with a six-speed manual transmission (excluding XLE) or a six-speed automatic transmission with sequential shift. Furthermore, the SE grade gets additional tuning and 179-horsepower, 21 more than its predecessor.
Toyota claims that fuel economy is improved with EPA fuel economy estimates of 33 mpg highway, 22 mpg city and 26 mpg combined for the 2.5-liter four cylinder engine with the six-speed manual transmission.
I'd buy a 1 or 2 y.o. TCH in a heartbeat rather than buy a basic LE Camry. To me that's a no brainer; same cost, more features, more power, far better fuel economy.
After adding up the accessories standard to the TCH but additional cost on the base model, the hybrid system alone was roughly $1,800. Of course, if you don't want those goodies, then they're just an extra cost with little extra benefit. If you do, then the price gap is something less than your $6,000.
Pushing the "peddle to the metal" will cause both power sources to kick-in. The TCH will merge faster on a freeway than the I4 engine Camry. The TCH drives like a heavier car, which it is. It feels front heavy to me, but the weight distribution is actually better than the base Camry (batteries in the trunk).
On a cost efficiency basis, I think the TCH choice is hard to argue. One has to want something more than the best car for the fewest dollars spent. Good luck.