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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    ...FoMoCo was handing out financing to anyone that could walk
    also tried incidentally by Mitsubishi, damn near put them out of business - deja vu?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Ford, IMO, is missing a chance to do what it really needs to do - and that would NOT include renaming the 500 the Taurus, which to me means 'rental car'. Look at what GM did with Cadillac and the CTS/STS, both very capable RWD sedans that have done reasonably well. Meanwhile Ford had the same thing in the Lincoln LS that could compete in the category and offer a RWD alternative to the upscale buyer. What do they do instead? - discontinue the thing and rename it a "Zephyr" (a rebadged FWD Fusion), doesn't work, so now it is an MKZ but still a rebadged Fusion. They ought to reincarnate the LS, decontent it, and sell something different in this vehicle class - it worked for Chrysler. Keep the '500' name or come up with another one, but something other than Taurus, and they really might have something that could sell. How about a new Crown Vic, RWD, 3.5 V6, on a slightly stretched LS platform with an optional V8 that could possibly keep up with the 300C/Charger Hemis? And then they don't lose any of those sales to the police depts!
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    A rebadged LS might sell well (I was suprised the LS didn't until I saw the price) but it's no replacement for the CV/GM. Have you ever sat in one? Even stretched, it would be a tight fit.

    But, I still agree a reasonably priced version could do well.

    I'm surprised to see you state that, though. You are always knocking Detroit cars for being old-tech and that chassis would be around 8 yrs old now. Now it's a good idea to keep an old car around? What gives?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Interesting thought on the revamped Crown Vic, Captain. I agree with you that Ford should not take the 500 and banish it to immediate thoughts of rental cars and other fleet type cars. LOL

    Honestly, with Mercedez and BMW using numerical identifiers on their cars...it makes it even harder for other companies to do so effectively. Mazda found a way, but Ford needs to go back to the normal type moniker. Leave the exotic sounding call letters (MKZ, LS, MKS) for it's luxo Lincoln line. It would seem that Ford is trying to be more than it really is.

    Chysler lucked out, they could have named the 300 anything they wanted and it still would have sold like crazy just because the darn thing looks so commanding in person and on the road.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    Chysler lucked out, they could have named the 300 anything they wanted and it still would have sold like crazy just because the darn thing looks so commanding in person and on the road.

    There's a lot of heritage in the 300 name. It was always the risky, next-gen vehicle for Chrysler so I guess maybe it always "lucked out." I agree they could've called it just about anything and it would've sold.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...with the success they're having with the 300, they're about to find out if lightning can strike twice when Dodge drops the Challenger.

    In the case of the 500...it looks so much better than any Taurus ever did. It would almost be like clipping the wings on a bird to re-dub it. Honestly, I say keep the 500 moniker, make the engine upgrade and push the heck out of it in the media.

    "More of what you're used to, just with a little more kick!"
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I agree that the Avalon has a better residual value, I traded an Avalon and a Hyundai XG 350L in on the Azera. I didn't get killed on the XG, but clearly the Avalon held more value. But, it was not nearly significant enough to overcome the new price difference between the two for an Azera versus Avalon. We can talk about sticker price, but the reality is that Azera's similarly equipped, can be had for about $5K or more under an Avalon. In my case, I got my Azera for right at $26k ($30K sticker). A comparable Avalon XLS (with NO nav) was quote to me right at $31K.

    Of course, my XG never went out of warranty (100,000 mi) but other than a headlight at 35K, I never had any warranty claims. Avalon was superb too, but had a few more VERY minor warranty problems.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    After posting my last message and looking at some others, it seems like the battle is down to the Azera versus the Avalon. While I got the Azera (had the Avalon), I would say that whichever you get is a reaaly great car for the money. In fact, for Azera and Avalon owners, they should be high fiving each other that they didn't get a Ford, a Chrysler, or a Buick. (not that they are bad cars as I doubt any car made today is a real loser. Our expectations are now just so high as to make what would have been a space age ride five years ago into a basic commuter car nowdays), The people who should be ticked off are the ones that bought the entry level Acura's and Lexus. That's what we should be comparing the Avalon's and Azera's to, instead of each other. They both kick butt as tremendous values when looked at in that comparison.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    sure, there is a lot of heritage in the 300 - but very few of us are old enough to remember it. The Galaxy 500s etc. was at least with us thru the 60s. I also think that most folks, if you asked them what's Ford's flagship, they would likely still tell you the CV, even if it is currently a horrendously outdated car.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I did say 'stretched' didn't I? The 300 sits on a 120" WB I believe, which is where that LS platform would have to go Even the old LS had a 114" WB, and about 195" length, and a real rear suspension, if I'm not mistaken. Something to work with and start from, the LS V8 was (is) a good car. The Chrysler 300, BTW, a reworked previous generation MB E class chassis, obviously seriously lengthened and not a samll interior.
    Have no problem with old tech as you call it as long as it is good old tech. The Nissan VQ has been around in one form or another for as long as the DT Ford - one is a great engine that has proven itself, the other should have been put out to pasture at least 5 years ago. Same could be said for the GM 3.8 except 10 years ago!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    not nearly significant enough to overcome the new price difference between the two for an Azera versus Avalon.
    have to call your hand on this one - using the 2006 models of the specific cars you mentioned, kbb.com trade in values, 15000 mile, and excellent conditions, the Avalon is worth $24425.00 the Azera $19850.00 - sure looks like close to that $5 grand to me? We don't know, of course, what will happen to these relative values in the future, of course.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhh, but captain...what is the price paid for each vehicle???

    I mean...if you go with the prices quoted by jaymagic...the Avalon for $31K and the Azera for $26K...then those trade in value prices reflect that they both hold their value...almost equally.

    I mean...you pay about $6K less for a fully loaded Azera compared to an Avalon, so a year later at trade in, the fact that the value difference is just under $5K. In the case of the Avalon, you pay slightly more, so it's worth slightly more at trade in time.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    no, the Azera is losing about 25% of its value (at least according to kbb and jaymagic's quotes), the Avalon closer to 20%. What you say is, of course, right; the Avalon is worth more used because it costs more new - and also since you get at least of a majority of your money back at trade-in in this particular example - there is little difference in cost between owning that Avalon as opposed to owning that Azera over that period. Furthermore, the extra cost of financing the higher Avalon amount is taken care of in fuel costs. Note that this 'cost equality' will start to widen (in favor of the less expensive car) as they both age.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    While the numbers aren't exact, they are however...close. Much closer than most would think between a Hyundai and a Toyota. If we had this conversation about 5 years ago, the difference would be MUCH greater!!!

    However...looking at it from a percentage standpoint, it does seem a bigger difference. 25% of $26K vs. 20% of $31K. While the percentage of loss is greater on the Hyundai, in respect to dollar amount...it's close to the same amount of money. I don't know about you, but you can talk percentages till you're blue in the face, what matters the most to me is how much money I'm maintaining or losing.

    I agree there will be a larger gap further down the road, but that gap will not be as wide as some might think it would be.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I don't doubt you are correct on the current resale values on the Avalon and Azera for 06. I am hopeful (but don't really expect) that the Azera will ever match the Avalon in resale percentage. But, the plain fact is that I could easily afford a $26,000 car, but would have had to dip into savings for a $31,000 car. So, for me, the reality of the $5,000 difference in purchase price more than overcame the fact that the Avalon may be worth $5K more in 4 or 5 years.

    BTW, my gas mileage in town has typically been between 22 and 23, which by these boards may be better than average for an Azera. (I play with the power, so don't assume I am trying to eek out every mile). Based on my experience with the Avalon, I would bet that it has better gas mileage than my Azera, because I thought it was ungodly how good the mileage was on my old Avalon. But again the ballpark 2 mpg more, simply did not overcome the purchase price. In the real world, at time of purchase, with the category of this forum being best sedan for UNDER $30,000, I am not sure why the Avalon comparison is that much of an issue, unless you want to compare only the entry level Avalon and then the Azera really does kick butt.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Also, another factor that comes in to play is if you're the type that's worried about trading in 2, 3 or 4 years down the road. Me, personally...I'm keeping my Azera until I can keep it no longer! ;) So for me, resale value means nothing.

    I have to admit, my fuel economy isn't what it could be. On the highway...I'm always cruising around 75-80 mph and since there's so much city driving mixed in...it's hard to see consistent numbers.

    The comparison is creating such a buzz because it's the media that started it. Then to find out that Toyota is looking over it's shoulder because of the moves that Hyundai has made in the last couple years. Because of that, Hyundai has become Toyota's direct competition. It makes sense considering Hyundai has been following the Toyota model, as of late, in bringing value based, dependable products to market. However, Hyundai is doing it with a twist...making the vehicles extremely applealing to most.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    jaymagic - those aren't my numbers, they are from Kelley's BlueBook (kbb.com) (run the numbers yourself if you would like), and the fact of the matter is that few dealers will ever give you what Kelleys quotes unless, of course, they inflate the sales price to cover it. As a rule the only way you can ever get a true sales price for any new car is to pay cash for it - too much room for shenanigans with trade values, financing rebates etc. My Avalon BTW does 27 mpg that 4 mpg difference is about right, and I would regard the Azera Ltd and Avalon XLS as comparable, although invoice + destination on the XLS is a tad over 28k - 31k sounds like a little too much unless of course your local Toyota distributor pumped the price a bit, or they really didn't want your trades.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    exactly, what is important is the gross dollars lost, not necessairly how fast you are losng it. BMWS hold their value really well on a percentage basis, but in terms of intial and gross dollars depreciation are expensive as hell.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    I guess I have the best of both worlds, bought an Azera Limited and saved a few thousand (in comparison to the Avalon, which was likely the second car on my list) and I accept that the Azera will, for a couple-three years yet, have a poorer resale value percentage than would a Toyota product, because I "keep a car forever!"

    Sold my bought-new 1977 Accord at the 20-year and 328,000 mile mark for a hundred bucks to a Honda service adviser 'cause the wiring harness finally went south. Still have my 1990 Accord (bought in '91 with 28k miles, used in conjunction with my kinda ratty-looking old '77 for about 6 years) which now has nearly a quarter-of-a-million miles on it and I'll prolly sell it to a neighbor, as I really don't need the '90 as a backup.

    I'll take a chance on the Azera (though I did buy the extended warranty) and let Hyundai worry about it for the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty period, then I'll wing it from there. Owned only 2 cars over a thirty-year period, hope to now make it THREE cars over a FIFTY year period!... :D
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    certainly if you keep a car 'until the wheels fall off' the resale value differeces will shrink to almost nothing. Hope you're not expecting 328,000 miles out of your new Azera, that kind of number on any car (even a Honda) is amazing adn very rare. Did you have to do anything major to it?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the new Challenger a much better looking car IMO than the 300 or even the Charger. Now, if they could only solve all the problems they are having with the V8 renditions. It hasn't been pretty.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    "Did you have to do anything major to it?"

    Weeeeeell, yes. A new engine at about the 169,000 mile mark. I think it was the cheap Italian oil I was using for two years in Italy that turned it into an oil burner. :blush:
    I was going to have it torn down and repaired, but the dealer had a right-off-the-boat-from Japan crated new engine (not a rebuild) for $2000 installed and I went that route. That new engine still was using no oil between changes for the next 159,000 miles until I sold.

    The '90 has required nothing major, to date, even still has the original AC compressor...
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    I am a member at Dodge/LX Forums and haven't read anything specifically bad for the V8. I know that Consumer Reports has a solid black circle for the V8 300C but they cannot back it up. The MDS (4 cylinder mode to save fuel) hasn't given members any problems and no major leaks with the Hemi have been reported.
    Perhaps some people may have given the V8 versions lower scores because they are unhappy with the fuel economy or that they spent more money compared to the V6 so they are more demanding.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Check out the Feb '07 issue of Car and Driver for what may become the new rear drive ford sedan ( if the company itself lasts that long ). They're using a stretched Mustang chassis with Independent Rear Suspension.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    saw that - like GM thanks to Australia. Guess if this happens then the the new Taurus/500 gets discontinued as well. Glad to see that Ford is finally recognizing IRS, a problem with the Mustang since day one.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    from what I understand, the black circle has little to with the engine itself - more about the rear suspension, alignment issues, and tranny/electronic gremlins. While CR has historically somehow found it difficult to rate cars with bad FE well (this being one of their biases), but I believe the consumer/reliability ratings are based on a number/frequency of problem areas reported - I would think that people that opt for the Hemi don't really care too much about FE and are not likely to 'invent' problems just because they happen to get 10 or 12 mpg around town (it is, after all, a hoot to drive and 'difficult' to get your right foot to behave itself).
    The 300C/Charger Hemis have been a monstrous success for DC, despite all this, and the design is a good example for Ford and GM - the type of car that "Detroit" does best. IMO, despite the obvious grins from sub 6 second 0-60 power with the Hemi, the engine of choice is the 3.5, which is doing much better ratings wise.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Never doubted your numbers. My quote on the AValon XLS included some options that I have on my Azera. Vehicle Skid Control, heated seats, upgraded JBL sound system, floor mats, etc. That got the sticker to over $34K with invoice right around $30K. The best offer I got (one dealer only) was $30,900. The cash price on my Azera was $26,250. I negotiated the trades after getting the cash price. (I did get a $500 previous Hyundai owner discount).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    one of the things that would indicate that the Azera may hold its value better than other Hyundai products that historically have not - is the fact that it is apparently selling well enough that Hyundai is NOT offering rebates/financing incentives to sell them. It is never a good sign to see that $3000.00 rebate sign appear on a model you just bought - just like 'rental fleets' it cheapens the product, and costs you later on.
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    The V6 300 has the same electronics and tranny (5 speed W5A580) as the V8 version.
    The rear suspension is stiffer for the V8 compared to the V6 but not sure why that would cause problems.
    This is why I don't have much faith in Consumer Reports.
    For example, they will good marks to a Buick Regal but not for a Pontiac Grand Prix which is essientially the same car.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Which...if you notice on any of the Hyundai Sales Event commercials you see...the Azera is one model not thrown in there. Seems between the Azera and the Tiburon...there is no marketing at all for those two cars. The Tiburon has enjoyed decent sales, maybe because of it's appeal to those in the tuner world.

    For the life of me, I still don't understand why Hyundai hasn't gotten behind the Azera with a major push to put it out in the mainstream media
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yes, but there is a whole lot more torque and HP going thru that tranny and rear end (differential, CV joints stc.) in the V8 models. Just a guess on my part. As far as the Regal/GP issue goes, you are right - but it may also be possible that Buicks are assembled to different standards thatn Pontiacs.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and nor will you see or have you seen any commercials on the Avalon either. It's funny what happens when you can produce a car that's in such high demand (and is good enough) that you don't have to. The Avalon hit in market in early 05 and take it form me, it was several months before you could even find one on the deler lots. In the Azera's case, it is still made in Korea, and the porbelm may be that they are selling all they can produce?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh...but the Avalon has the advantage of brand recognition as it's been around for quite a while now...since 1995. Having established that model for the past 12 years is definitely an advantage. It's just that Toyota kept it as a boring piece of machinery until the most recent edition.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and sales of the 2004 'boring' model were hanging in there at about 3000 cars/month, the 05 model hit the skids at closer to 8000 units almost immediately - and not commercial one. Kind of what happened to me, had no idea that Toyota was completely redoing the Avalon and was really considering the G35 and TL. By chance, happened by a Toyota dealer and saw a strange looking vehicle on the sidewalk. Drove it, liked it, saved a couple of grand (bought the Touring), and the rest is history. The car sold itself primarily because of the engine, and I violated one of my personal 'prime directives' doing so - never buy any car in its first year. The fact that it is a Toyota helped me overlook that one.
    Incidentally, a neighbor who owns a loaded to the gills 04 Camry, visited me in my driveway - and made some comments about how he couldn't justify the extra money for the Avalon when he bought. After explaning to him that it was not an optioned out Camry anymore -he was handed a set of keys. I think it scared him a little bit (even got an ahh s---!), but you never guess what appeared in his driveway a couple of months later!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I can imagine...jumping into the '05 Avalon from an '04 Camry is like when I jumped out of my '02 Sonata into my '06 Azera...WHOA!!!

    I think that was the biggest problem Toyota had was the Avalon was really a more expensive Camry. Hyundai had that same problem with the Sonata and the XG. Yeah...you got a few more bells and whistles, a couple more ponies under the hood, but when it came to the interior space...they were almost identical. The XG never really came across as a 'flagship' type of car. The Azera, however...does so wtih class!

    It took Toyota a while to catch up in the horsepower game. When Nissan dropped the 240 hp Altima, Honda quicky followed suit by boosting up the Accord...accordingly. Hyundai didn't do so right away, but they knew if they were to be taken seriously, they had to do something credible with the Sonata, thus...it got 240 ponies under the hood. It wasn't until then that Toyota woke up and realized..."Uh oh, we gotta do something!" Thus, they quickly started putting solid engines in the Avalon and the Camry.

    I wonder what's going to happen now that the Altima offers the 270 hp powerplant!
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    My second car ( the Azera is really the wife's ) is a '99 Mustang Cobra with IRS. Handles great on bumpy roads, but the downside is severe wheelhop on dumped clutch starts. BMW has the same problem with it's M5 ( manual trans ) and so does Cadillac CTS-V. It would seem that it's difficult to control the hop unless they go to excessively stiff springs. Solid axle Mustangs don't have that problem, nor do Corvettes. Chevy solved it, apparently.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    axle ho a RWD problem, a SS Camaro I had many many years ago was terrible (and dangerous to drive in the snow) because of it - the new Mustang is solid rear axle is it not?.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    in the case of the Altima, it has been a very quick car with the VQ ever since 2002 - the 2007 not a big change in the power dept. except for the CVT. The XG350, I always regarded as somewhat of a 'pig' - overweight and too soft (Amanti), unremarkable at best. The Azera is a significant leap forward (as is the rest of the car) into what a good V6 ought to be, although I personally find the Azera too Buick-like for my tastes - same for the 'non-sport' Avalon trims. And I actually don't like the 'standard' stability/traction control, although that would probably not stop me from buying the Azera, the FE might.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Are you kidding...when the 02 Altima dropped, it was only sporting 240 hp. Then, a couple years down the road, they came out with the Altima SE-R model that was kicking out 260 hp. Now the SE comes with 270 hp.

    The XG 350, while unique in look (to a degree)...didn't have enough to truly distinguish it as a 'flagship' model.

    The Amanti...well, it's a poor man's Benz really. It is overweight and soft, but it was never purported to be anything of a sports sedan by any stretch of the imagination.

    Azera...too Buick-like??? :confuse: Buick could only HOPE to create something like an Azera. Not to say that the Lucerne isn't a nice car, but it's no Azera. You would have to get the Lucerne with the V-8 to be able to compete with an Azera...sorry, no competition there. Also, why would the stability/traction control scare you away...you can turn it off you know!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the other car I own, an 03 Altima 3.5, 4 speed auto, and not significantly slower than the new 270hp CVT (both will run well into the 6s 0-60). Benzes are anything but soft, more BMW like.
    I agree and have said earlier that "Detroit" could only wish to have what Hyundai currently has in the Sonata and Azera - and I think that the Azera is probably properly sprung for the average American driver taste - on the softer side! This would certainly be a strange objection from an Avalon owner, wouldn't it? Such is the difference between the Av Touring and XLS/LTD.
    VSC/TC adversion all has to do with limitations that these systems mustput on any vehicle's handling capabilities, which I've been talking about in these forums for months now - trust me, you don't want to get me started.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well, considering the Altima has turned into what the Maxima was at one point...a sport sedan, I'm not surprised.

    The Azera is sprung a bit on the soft side, however...it's a luxury car, not a sport sedan. That is why I am so surprised that folks have an issue with the softer ride. Funny thing is, it can handle the driving that most Americans will do in it on a daily basis better than they think. I've driven mine hard a few times and came away pleasantly surprised. Maybe one thing that would be nice in the future is an adjustable suspension option.

    The only thing that kills me is that folks look at a car and want it to be more than it really is. They mention the 7 second 0-60 time on the Azera and almost speak negatively on it...it's not a barn burner, but...it's not slow either. The handling, again...it's supposed to be an entry level luxury car, not touring/sports sedan.

    While ESC/TC can limit some things, it enhances others. IMO...it's sorta like ABS. It can help you in the right conditions, but is it REALLY needed??? I had owned 7 cars prior to my Azera and none of them had ESC/TC nor did they have ABS and honestly...never really felt they were needed.

    However, the ESC/TC has come in handy on my Azera when I turn onto an inclined street that's wet. Every car without it will spin out until the tires finally grab. My Azera will start to spin, but then the TC takes over and limits the spin-out to minimal and I'm on my way.

    Again...is it a feature I really NEED, no. It is nice to have and I'm glad that I can swtich it off.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/9639/30000-family-sedans.html
    read this - an older road test for several of the cars in this group and pay attention to what they have to say about ESC in the 300, as well as the ride etc. in the Avalon tested. My contention is ESC can't, by any definition, enhance handling - but it can allow for control where you otherwise might not be able to handle it, much like ABS (which doesn't shorten stopping distances) it only allows more control. Hyundai should be lauded for the off switch, some mfgrs. don't do this and you end up at the mercy of what some computer geek (or lawyer) has decided are your abilities to handle a car properly. My only experience, incidentally exploring the effects of ESC interevention BTW, a Sonata - and it does limit cornering speeds etc as they are designed to do.
    see told you, don't get me started.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The XG 350 L, when not pushed hard, is a very satisfying cruiser, and cheap! It has good low RPM torque and is very smooth, engine and suspension. Just go slow around corners and over bumps. It ain't no sports sedan.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well, none of these cars are 'sports sedans' - it's just a matter of degree.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I have loved the VSC for the winter we have had here in Denver. Whether in town or up in the mountains, I have occasionally felt it work when I was going a little to fast for the conditions coming into a turn. On a track, (if I were ever on one with an Azera) I would turn it off. In the real world, it works great.

    BTW, I have seen Azera's 0-60MPH time listed everwhere from 6.1 (Car and Driver) to 7.0. Most seem to place it in the mid to low 6's, actually as quick or quicker than the Avalon. But again, I doubt I will ever need to see if my Azera is a tenth of a second slower or faster than an another car. I do know it moves out very well when needed.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the article I posted shows a tested 6 flat - but you are right, at this level, it doesn't mean too much. Acceleration times will vary car to car and are highly dependent on track and weather conditions, not to mention how much the tester is willing to abuse the car to get it to do it. C&D seems to get 'better' results with most cars, maybe they are the 'kings of car abuse', as neither you or I would likely be able to get that 6 whatever.
    If I were a betting man, however, I'd take the Avalon - less weight, more horsepower.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, the XG is not really large either, when you get right down to it. I think it is a little over 103 cu.ft. for passengers. Ok though, if the 4 people in it average around 5'8" or so. Just be careful to put a short one in tandem with a long one.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhhh...where as TC may not enhance handling (which I never stated), the ESC (electronic stability control) can actually enhance handling capabilities. As explained, the system works to keep the back end from breaking around to the front. What is supposed to happen is when the car feels like it's breaking loose (in the event of oversteer), then it lightly applies the outside front brake to help bring the car back under control.

    Personally, I don't plan on testing it out to see if it actually works. Again...is it NEEDED, probably not, but it's something that's there. If it bothers one that much...they can simply turn it off.

    You can argue me if you want, but I stated MY Sonata did not. I had the '02 GLS without the TC/ABC option. Yes it was avaiable, but I felt I didn't need it.

    The ESC can only limit cornering speed if it's ON, and only if oversteer is detected. Under normal circumstances...it doesn't interfere. Now what?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    XG a budget limo? That's a laugher!!! The Amanti would fit that bill a bit better.

    The XG had no more interior space than the 02-05 Sonatas. Trust me, I did the research when I purchased my Sonata. I just couldn't see myself shelling out more money for a car of the same size just to get a few more options and a couple extra ponies under the hood. It just didn't make sense to me or my bank account.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, before the Amanti came out, the XG was the one to choose.
    And you are wrong about the space. The Sonata back then had 100 cu.ft. Inside there is a noticeable difference. And the low rpm torque was significantly more too than the Sonata.
    (and why should I trust you?)
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