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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the Chinese brands are already out there, some with strange sounding name 'Chery' for example and some with familiar names like Buick. GM does seem to be making a concerted effort to source much of their components over there already. Preliminary reports on the true Chinese cars, show suspect quality and last generation technology - remember the Hyundais of 20 years ago?
    This is not unusual these days, if you read this months CR car issue you will find out that the cars most likely to be 'made in the USA' almost all have 'Japanese' names. The most "American" car of this group, BTW, may possibly be the Avalon! A sad commentary on Detroit's inability to produce competitive cars and control their own labor costs.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You're right, the ESC does come back on every time the car is turned off and then back on. However, knowing that...you can simply push the button to turn it off if you need it to be off.

    I never had the problem in my Sonata as it did not have the system. ;)

    I can tell you that there are times I do switch it off in my Azera, but under normal driving conditions it's a very non-invasive system.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...to a degree you are correct, but something is said for those that take every word literally. Actually using "anyone" isn't an absolute. If I had used "nobody" then I would concede. However, to further explain my use of "anyone"...anyone that I know and have talked to concerning the XG-300/350. ;)

    So...while you hang on to the word you read in CR, I go based on what I see and feel for myself. Again, there is nothing about the XG models that says "Limo". Ohhhhhhhh...wait, now I see it. It COULD be a limo for anyone (damn, there goes my use of the word "anyone" again) under 5' tall! :blush:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    allmet - my concerns with ESC more have to do with what I regard as misrepresentations by the mfgrs. (and our own government) selling/requiring these things; they are being promoted in such a way that people think they 'improve' handling and/or a car's avoidance capabilities, and that in believing that people will develop bad habits relying on it.
    There is an interesting (from my perspective a 'red flag') article in this month's CR (who, of course seems to favor such things) that talks all about the 'next generation' of these systems - the computer taking control of a car's steering in order to 'help' you avoid something. The Lexus VDIM parking 'assist' one step further.
    Too much technology, IMO, too fast and I don't trust it! An entirely non PC persepctive, I guess I must be crazy?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yep. I liked those Terminator movies too.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Captain, the VDIM and parking assist are 2 totally seperate systems. VDIM is an integrated system that combines ESC, ETC, ABS and etc in order to correct the motion of the car before the accident could happen. Parking assist on the other hand is solely designed to help the driver park the car.

    To me the VDIM is a safety feature and parking assist is just a fancy toy. Anyone that couldn't parallel park or back the car into a space shouldn't allow to drive in the first place.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    In Arizona, legally blind people can get a license to drive so long as a normally sighted person sits next to them in the car.
    Like a seeing eye dog. It is so anti-discrimination lawsuits won't be brought by the geezers in Sun City.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yes Louis they certainly are, the VDIM does, however, effect also steering passive sense, slowing those inputs as the 'car' anticipates an accident. I am not sure I want the car 'deciding' when an accident is imminent and then taking control of those same things on the car that might allow me to avoid it. In some states I guess you still have to parallel park to get a license, does this become something that becomes a lost art?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    captain...with that said, I can agree with you. Too much technology is taking the driving out of our hands. The downside is that it's making folks pay less and less attention to actually driving. The more automated a car becomes, the more a driver can feel like they can do other things...besides drive! I feel that some technologies can enhance the driving experience. Whether it be performance, safety or comfort. However, I do feel that companies go too far with some things.

    Personally, I don't think you're crazy at all.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    do they get a 'stand-in' fot the eye test? sure, does sound like TV lawyers though!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "Sonata is a copy of Accord."

    Incorrect. Let's please get the fact straight. The Sonata's design froze before the Accord you referred to came out.

    "Azera and Sonata. I am sorry to say but both car's interior is at least 2 generations old compared to others."

    Really? I disagree 200% (one for each generation). Maybe to you but there are a lot of satisfied Hyundai owners that like the elegant and uncluttered design. I'd say Hyundai interiors are at least on par with the rest of the class, and to say 2 generations behind is a bit excessive and biased.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    I'd suggest that the Sonata sales reflect that Hyundai's marketing research picked the right "two generations" to appeal to!... ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Captain, I think your Avalon comes with the VDIM correct? If you haven't know it yet, there is actually a way to disable the VDIM completely. If you don't know the procedure and would like to find out let me know.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    louis - no my Avalon is not VSC equipped - something that I suspect 'saved' my car and possibly me - a high speed accelerating swerve to avoid a jerk that pulled out in front of me. Don't believe the systems that are in Avalons are nearly as sophisticated (or invasive) as VDIM the Lexus has - and yes, I've read about that convoluted sequence of brake/parking brake applications necessary to shut the thing off - something that nobody in their right mind is ever going to remember or bother with. Toyota and Lexus, in particular, should have enough sense to equip their cars with a simple 'off' switch. If I remember right, you drive an IS350, a true sports sedan with all the power that comes with that and very high handling limits and evasive capabilities. Perhaps the last car that I would want any computer interference on, although logically those intervention levels should be set higher than something less capable in that regard - like an Avalon.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the Sonata 'sales' figures are grossly inflated by donations made to the airport rental lots, part of a conscious effort on Hyundai's part to get as many American butts into their products as possible.
    I did have a chance to drive an 06 Sonata V6 for a couple of weeks, found it a good driving car, with a much better drivetrain than the previous models. A substantial improvement save for the interior design, fit and finish, and relatively weak FE - where do you suppose they got that plastic wood - Jupiter? Ugly, IMO....
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I truly doubt that, just take a look around you and see how many Sonatas you see on a regular basis now. You see them almost as much as the Camry and Accord these days.

    I understand you have this thing against Hyundai, but the fit and finish has recently been regarded as better than that found in Toyota and Honda products.

    You are right about the drivetrain being better...they actually started getting it right with the '02 model year.
  • sandiegan1sandiegan1 Member Posts: 8
    If I were going to buy a ~$30k sedan, I would hold out for the G8. 6 Speed, RWD, V8. Can't go wrong with a Corvette sedan.

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_news070207_2008_pontiac_g8- /
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I understand you have this thing against Hyundai
    I guess you haven't really been reading my posts, then. The Azera and even the Sonata are wonderful accomplishments and are, in most regards worthy of consideration, by those folks that would value those same sort of attributes by any one of the Japan 3. "Detroit" mfgrs.     are the ones that ought to look at those cars and wonder why they can't do that.
    And I'll differ on the Sonata interior being even close to an Accords/Camrys/Altimas - but the Azera, now that is impressive!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I truly doubt that, just take a look around you and see how many Sonatas you see on a regular basis now.
    if you do a little research, I think you'll find that Sonata sales have nosedived very recently, a good thing because Hyundia apparently realized sending all these cars to Hertz was not good for brand perceptions and/or their bottom line. More Hyundais on the road, sure - and less of them with a green 'E' on the trunk - both of which should mean that Hyundai may finally be getting a handle on that 'Korean' car reputation that continues to plague them.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    This VDIM discussion is getting off-topic so this would be my last post regarding this issue. Lexus has finally come to its sense and put an "off" switch on the '07 IS350. However, mine's an '06 so I still have to resort to the "brake dance" whenever I want to have a little fun with my car. I am telling you, once the VDIM is off my car behaves totally different, it's almost like I am driving a different car. One thing that bothers me with shutting the VDIM off is that the ABS is also disabled along the process...

    Okay, back to the large sedan discussion.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    RE: 1376: Thanks for posting this product information with photos. While I dig the RWD 6.0 / 362hp and 6 speed auto-shift, this puppy is GM ugly and reminds me of the all to narrow "Caddy that zigs."

    I give it a lifespan of 2 years with Holden / GTO sales results.
  • sandiegan1sandiegan1 Member Posts: 8
    I think the GTO failed for different reasons. GM didn't market it properly, they had distribution problems, and the car didn't have much of a campaign for it. It should have had the LS2 off the bat as well. Nonetheless, I think the G8 will do better. There will be a 6 cylinder version as well, what with raising gas prices. If GM can move a bunch of homely looking G6's, I think the can't do much worse with a RWD platform, and, what are in my opinion, better looks.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    image

    More: http://www.autoblog.com/photos/hyundai-concept-genesis
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    My impressions:

    Front: rip from Toyota Camry.
    Side: rip from Infiniti M and G.
    Rear: a combination of BMW 7er's trunk and Austin Martin's tail light.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    It will likely do better than the GTO. The G8 has been getting better reviews than the GTO and it is a new design where the GTO was already old and outdated when it came to the US.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    I looked at the Holden GTO and passed because of the lack of trunk space. In order to meet U.S. crash laws they threw a fuel bladder in the trunk - leaving almost no space for anything else. The car was an awesome runner for the money, though, at least in the 400HP version.

    BTW they have done it again with the G6 hardtop/convertible. A 4/5 seater with 4 cubic foot trunk.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...seriously, we've had back and forths before, I know you're not truly against Hyundai. Once again, words taken too literally.

    The fit and finish of the interior in the Sonata is no worse than the Azera, both are very well put together interiors. Considering I was an '02 Sonata owner, the '06 interior was way better and I loved the '02. For those that owned the '02 body style, we could see where it still looked like a Sonata inside, but you could also see where the improvements were made as well.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmm...yes, recently. However, as I stated...take a look around you and you'll see just how often you'll see a Sonata on the roads.

    The sad thing with Hyundai, IMO, is that they have seemed to get the automobile equation right. I mean, they are putting quality vehicles on the road. Now their problem seems to be on other levels that will hurt them as badly as putting out a bad product. I mean...who wants to buy a great car when the service behind it sucks? There just seems to be so much disparity nationwide when it comes to customer service from the service departments at actual dealerships all the way to Hyundai Corporate.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "...that'Korean' car reputation that continues to plague them." They have by far dropped the problematic image they carried for so long. That started happening with the '02 model year and kept going. Again, it's not the cars that's creating consumer hesitation, it's the complaints others hear about the lack of quality in the customer service, or lack of service period.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    that perception along the lines of: 'it will be a cold day in Hades before you see a Hyundai in my driveway' is real and based on reputation and status. Probably unfair, and not based on any known quality issues, particularily recently, it does however, exist. While your personal experiences (and even longer term reliability studies) would dictate that many of the Hyundai products should be at the top of many lists, don't think you would find too many buyers out there that don't remember things like the Excel. That perception I'm talking about is the reason why we have things like 100k warranties on Hyundais and now GM products. And not necessarily because cars from either mfgr. are more or less likely to break - but to provide the buyer with some assurances that don't seem to be necessary from some other mfgrs.
    Disagree strongly about the Sonata interior vs. the Azera's, to me it's like night and day, and somewhat subjective!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    to get back to the large sedans themselves and leave the brand conversations for other more appropriate places.
  • pahefner01pahefner01 Member Posts: 202
    I too remember the Excel. The past is the past. I did a lot of comparison shopping before buying my 02 XG250L. I looked at Impalas and Chryslers and even Cadillac Seville STSs. After driving all three it came down to what I like and the price. I decided the XG was a value worth trying. After 4 years and over 80K miles with no real problems Hyundai came out with the Azera. It caught my eye right away, on their website before I could even see one. Travelling on my job I had driven a Chrysler 300 and a new Impala. After driving the Azera and based on my experience with the XG I decided to purchase an 06 Azera. I'm happy with my choice. I won't dis the other models but after comparison shopping I made my choice.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Sounds like two great choices to me too. I bet you'll be even happier with your Azera.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    The 100k warranty is what got me into the showroom. The GM 100k warranty didn't do me much good because the time limitation was 5 years. We only put about 10k a year on the Hyundai, so their warranty looked better for us.

    The Azera was unknown to me, having never seen one on the road, and skimming over the few magazine articles on it. After seeing the car ( interior quality and materials, especially ) I was absolutely stunned. The test drive opened my eyes even more. Two hours later I was an Azera owner.

    BTW Hyundai has dropped their 100k warranty in the rest of the world, so based upon their recent reliability ratings, and the basic goodness of their recent offerings, it wouldn't surprise me to see their warranty reduced in the future.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually...I WOULD be surprised to see Hyundai drop the number of years on their warranty. They have a desire to be a big player in the auto industry. They set a standard that not many can follow and they know that. BMW being the only other one that set a high bar with the maintenance free program. The warranty actually reflects the company's belief in their product. If they felt their product would fail too greatly, it would cost them too much to have a warranty covering such a lengthy time span.

    Toyota and Honda don't feel they need to offer a warranty like what Hyundai offers because they're going on proven reliability. However, when you do have to take a Honda or Toyota in for repair after the typical 3yr/30k miles...it hurts your pockets. Most people don't want to have to worry about repairs like that for duration of their ownership. The Hyundai warranty pretty much covers that.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    There was a news release from Hyundai last year sometime, I think around late summer-early fall. In that release, Hyundai USA announced that the 10/100 warranty would be in place through at least 2010 if memory serves. If I can find it again, I'll post the link. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Honestly...I'm not worried, I bought in '06, so I'm covered for 10yrs/100k miles (and yes, I paid for the extended warranty as well). :D
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    actually Toyota/Honda as well as most others all are into the 5 year 60k drivetrain warranties which I beleive is what the Hyundai 100k actually is, a drivetrain warranty only - not 'bumper to bumper'. BMW is covering everything, including maintainence for 50k because they have developed a deserved reputation for electronic gremlins and ridiculous repair costs. I'm sure that had Hyundai not been fighting their own reputation, you wouldn't have that longer warranty - it is not so much a statement of the mfgrs. faith in their product, as it is a marketing ploy to combat those buyer concerns (just as it is with BMW).

    Warranty claims for all mfgrs are a very significant part of vehicle costs, and I can assure you that no mfgr. is going to do something like that unless they felt they had to, not necessarily as related to quality issues, but to sell it in the first place. You are right, Toyota/Honda/Nissan can pretty much sell everything they can make and would likely do so even if they offered no warranty at all...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You are correct, you can pay just over $1100 to get the other warranties bumped up to the 10yr/100k mile mark like I did. The normal bumper-to-bumper was 5yr/60k miles and the road-side assistance is 5yr/unlimited miles. Both of those get bumped up to the 10yr/100k mi. mark and the road-side assit. stays with unlimited mileage.

    People don't realize, but VW was the first to offer the 10yr/100k mi warranty, long before Hyundai did it.

    It may be a ploy to get folks in the door, but if their products failed too greatly, the cost to the company to continue covering the warranty repairs would run them out of business.

    Personally, I like the comfort of knowing outside of preventive maintenance, the likelihood of me having a huge repair to pay for is minimal. Peace of mind is priceless!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Folks, we really need to get back to comparing the large sedans that we've been talking about. There lots of discussions over on the Auto News board where you can have these conversations about brand trends. Thanks!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The 100k warranty is what got me into the showroom. The GM 100k warranty didn't do me much good because the time limitation was 5 years
    ****
    It would cost you very little to up the 5/100K to 10/100K, since mileage is the big problem in their minds. Same mileage, more years? meh - few hundred dollars.

    I still say that for big cars, it's hard to beat GM, especially if you get one a year old. Gosh - it has 4/80K left on that warranty(easy to boost to 8/80K or whatever) and costs $20K? Sounds like a steal to me. Especially when you factor in in that Buick, for instance, is a very reliable car. Certainly better than Hyundai right now.

    My money is on a 1 year old domestic.
    *the one exception is a Mercury Grand Marquis. You can get one for about 17-18K. 25K buys you one that's loaded with so much bling the cops will be pulling you over if you ask anyone for directions without geting out of the car first. :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    at least according to the 07 CR Auto issue, Hyundai is in the middle of the pack when it comes to long term reliability, behind the Japanese brands but better than the American ones. And improving - the Azera is mentioned as being the best in 1st year reliability, even ahead of things like Avalons, which never TMK been any more than 'better than average'. The Avalon and the Azera are ranked 1 and 2, respectively, overall as well. Keep in mind that any car with lots of options or bling will likely suffer from poorer reliability (more things to go wrong). $1100, incidentally, seems rather steep to simply supplement (for 40k) a warranty that already covers the major mechanical stuff but, as you say, peace of mind.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Sorry Pletko...did any Buick product rate in the top 10 for the latest reliablity rankings???
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    before Pat gets mad and we are all banned from the forum...

    The Azera is a great car for the money!!! :D
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Actually, yes. Buick(passenger cars) does quite well. Most of the rest of GM, not so much. But it's entirely because GM only uses the 3.8 and 3.6 engines in them, which are bulletproof tanks. The 3800 is easily as reliable as the 3.8 Toyota used/uses in their Camry.

    Yeah - stodgy and old tech, but cheap to fix even when it does manage to break. Good gas mileage, too. I've never heard of a 3800 having mechanical problems aside from the crankshaft/timing sensors(easily fixable) in less than 100K miles.(maf, water pump, and other ~60K consumables aside)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    things like the Lacrosse/Lucerne/GM/CV have indeed shown some better than average results - reliability wise. THEY SHOULD, antiquated drivetrains and designs should at least do that - because the cars have very little to offer from any other standpoint. The Azera, or FTM the Avalon, are doing better (if you choose to believe the 1.3 million surveys CR got in 2006) reliability wise (and further project to do even better over the longer term than the 'Detroit' models) and they do offer something other than just the same old tired technologies.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    They cost a wad of cash the size of a wheelbarrow less used. One year old for $20K? Let some other fool eat the initial depreciation.

    And "old" is good. Seriously. You don't throw away your piano for an electronic one, do you, despite the fact that the design is somewhere in the 150 year old range. Many times old is good because all of the problems are worked out of it.

    GM transmissions? Gosh - $1200-1600 to fix. The Avalon? $3500-$4000. Not a typo. GM sensors and such? $160-$180. Toyota is hideously expensive. Tires, brakes, and the rest - all inexpensive as well. Essentially you get top-notch quality at Hyundai prices. It's a Buick and screams "stodgy" but it's still quite compelling as a commuter-box. And the LaCrosse seats 6 in a pinch with the bench seat option(makes the interior feel much MUCH larger as well - like the old W body Buicks from the early 90s)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    BTW, the 3.5 2GR engine in the Camry/Avalon was brand new in 2005 (2007 in the Camry) and besides leaving any "American" engine in the dust in the power or efficiency depts., it is also an exercise in sophistication, technologies, and refinement that 'Detroit' has never shown any ability to match.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    And now much does the thing cost to fix? See, that's te killer with the imports. They break maybe 2/3 as often, but the prices for the repairs are more than double.

    Say the transmission - 200K miles at $4000. Versus 120K miles at $1600. (wish that was true - the Toyota transmissions are 80-120K too). Better hope you have an extended warranty, because long-term Toytoa isn't the deal is once was, not that they have moved to 5-6 speed transmissions.

    In the end, you just throw away money buying an import versus a 1 year old domestic(or even a 1 year old import in most cases).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    GM transmissions? Gosh - $1200-1600 to fix. The Avalon? $3500-$4000. Not a typo
    True - and the same now applies, to many GM products as they 'get with the program' and use their own electronic 6 speed.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Don't remind me of it. Of course, my next car will likely be a CTS with a 6-speed manual, so it's not a big deal to me either way :)
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