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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    owned a 92 Maxima, 190hp which was 40 or 50 more than otherwise available, very quick and somewhat quirky (torque steer). The Camrys/Avalons which were then ostensibly the same car were close in HP (180 if I remember right), but as is Toyota tradition, quite softer rides. The Maxima later evolved in 222 hp out of the same 3 liters in '00 - but during a 10-15 year period (89-02), it remained the 'performance' sedan of choice unless you could learn to love the Yamaha engined Taurus SHO. Kind of reminds you how barren the automotive landscape was back in those days! The '02 Altima was so outrageous, that I just had to buy one the following year ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You have proven my point...a 10 HP difference wasn't that big a deal and considering nothing was really over 200 HP except for true sport coupes. However, as you stated, the Maxima went up to 222 HP in '00 and the Avalon followed in Toyota tradition with it's 210 HP offering.

    Like I said...it wasn't until '02 with the Altima that the companies starting really trying to one-up each other!

    So, while the Avalon always offered the softer ride, it still had over 200 HP as well. The Maxima has always been the "performance" sedan of choice, as it was practically the only sport sedan offering at the time that was worth a darn! The SHO was popular for a while, but it never really evolved much. Ford had an opportunity to jump on it, but I guess they didn't know how to proceed or what direction to go.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well it may be was the performance sedan of choice if you disqualify the BMWs of that era. The 200hp Avalons/Camrys were nowhere near as quick or responsive as the 222hp or even the 190hp Maximas which had a 10 year production run. The SHOs, IMO, were just flat ugly and were limited production with I believe some associated mechanical problems. Later morphed into a Yamaha V8, kind of what GM is attempting to do now with the Impala SS. Interestingly enough, Yamaha is still building some engines for Ford, the latest making its appearance in V8 Volvos.
    My 92 Maxima BTW ended up never being in the shop for almost 300k b4 the tranny finally cratered (my fault) - a great car. My wife still drives the 03 Altima, also never in the shop, but it is just getting broken in (70k)!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I agree with you on all points.

    Yeah...70K miles, is definitely just getting started!
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1456
    In 98 when the merger was finalized Chrysler was still going OK, but the Jeep line and the minivans were just over the peek. Had the merger not gone through many believed Chrysler would have been in big trouble much earlier.
    They can't seem to be able to capitalize on their successes such as the 300C.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The Maxima SE with a 5-speed stick and V-6 engine was a (the?) leading 4-door sports sedan even back in 1985 when it switched to front wheel drive. Before that it was direct competition to the Toyata Cressida, another rear wheel driver.
    Then in 1989 with a total redesign and a 160 HP engine it re-established itself as an even stronger sport sedan entry and distanced itself further from the new Cressida, which had continued its aim at luxury (and power with a 190 HP V-6).
    Again, in 1992, Maxima power was upped to 190 HP. It competed with and was found better than the 220 HP Ford Taurus SHO in the car magazines of the day.
    The Maxima SE continued to be the best value sports sedan up until the 1995 makeover in which it lost much of its sporting character.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Ford also had the SHO 3.0 liter motor making 220 HP then.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    As I stated earlier, in '98, Chrysler was doing well. The "new" ('94 era) Ram truck was peaking in sales, the LH line (Intrepid/Concorde/LHS/300) had just been remodeled, the new Stratus/Sebring and Neon were in production and Chrysler was creating enthusiasm for their products by producing cars like the Viper, the Prowler, and the soon to be released PT Cruiser. On top of that, they had the bread and butter minivan which kept the cash flowing.

    I'm sure there are some who say it was a move of necessity for them to agree to the "merger" but I believe it was more of a cashout on their recent successes.

    Like it has been stated in the many rebuttals, MB has used nothing from Chrysler in their products so their reliability can't be linked to Chrysler. Captain's mention of CU's lowest reliability rating in relationship to the merger only only goes to the bias many feel they have toward "American" manufacturers. The whole argument is ludicrous since nearly all top management was shown the door immediately after deal went through. As for any Chrysler financial woes hurting MB reliability, I really don't see superior engineers or business moguls cutting costs on their flagship fleet, with tons of profit built in, to cover what you claim to be shoddy, cheap, and inferior products.

    While it could be argued that MB may not have been able to bring Chrysler production up to MB standards, there is no logical explanation as to how Chrysler could drag down MB. It is even arguable that MB was any better to start. As one of the other posters noted, "routine" maintenance for a MB has always been much more than the American version of routine. ;)
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    My mistake, the Toyota Cressida had an inline 6-cylinder motor, never a V-6. The Camry and Avalon 6 cylinder motors were always V-6, but never 6 inline.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    what you say is logical and possibly even true - but the facts remain - MBs recent declines in quality correspond almost to the day with the Chrysler acquisition. Didn't understand it then, and surely don't understand it now.
    IMPO always thought that Chrysler was the low man on the 'American' quality totem pole anyway - followed by Ford and then GM perhaps on the top - but also a manufacturer that consistently was more innovative and styling conscious than the other two. 8-10 years ago (and earlier) there was a lot of solid reasons for this bias you oft mention, nowadays these 'perceived' quality differences have largely disappeared as far as assembly quality is concerned, and reside mostly in the drivetrains in which there simply is no comparison (yet) - and add to that these 'American' companies that continue to put more and more Americans out of work while the 'Japanese' cos. do exactly the opposite...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You are very right. However, my arguement was that the HP wars didn't really start until the intro duction of the '02 Altima. I mean...the Altima went from boring, unassuming and bland to an instant track star! Honda took notice immediately and pumped the Accord up to compete. Toyota on the other hand took another 4 years to decide to join the others, but only after the introduction of the '06 Sonata (since that was in direct competition with the Camry)...they felt they couldn't be outdone by Hyundai.

    Prior to '02...it wasn't even about HP, it was more about who had the most durable product. Which one could design the better looking car. If you remember...the Maxima, Cressida, Camry and even the Avalon shared the same basic look. No, they didn't look alike, but you could tell that they were competing with each other with no doubt!!!

    Now it seems the standard for mid-sized cars is HP on the high 200's...seemingly moving towards the 300 HP range. Anything less...would be uncivilized! ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    they felt they couldn't be outdone by Hyundai.

    That's really not the reason. Toyota was taking its time to develop a kick-a** V6 called 2GR.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    From the looks of this column it seems that we have seen the Japanese, German, American, and Korean autos discussed, but where are the Chinese??? Sorry guys, but if you aren't going to discuss things by the title, then change the title. I too am interested in all of these others, but I was looking for something that related to the Chinese vs Korean autos, where is that information found? All it takes is a few strokes of the keyboard to make the change. :(:blush: :confuse: ;);)
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1473
    The Chinese have yet to bring a car to market in the US.
    That is supposed to change in the near future.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    If you say so. Toyota had gotten too complacent in it's place in the industry. There was nothing progressive about them at all. Like I said, it wasn't until Hyundai dropped the '06 Sonata that Toyota felt they had to do something to keep up.

    Maybe it started with the dropping of the '02 Altima and it took Toyota 4 years to finally come up with something to contend. The point is...it's taken Toyota a while to finally realize they had to keep up.

    It's also a well known fact that Toyota is looking over their shoulder at Hyundai because they are realizing that Hyundai is quickly becoming a viable contender and instead of the Big 3, it'll be the Big 4.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    It's also a well known fact that Toyota is looking over their shoulder at Hyundai

    Yes, Toyota is aware of Hyundai but the 06' Sonata did not, and I repeat, DID NOT fuel Toyota to enter the HP war. The new 2GR was already on the 06' Avalon (or was is 05'?) and since the new Camry is only one year away Toyota wisely decided to drop the 2GR in the new Camry instead of the old one in its final year of production.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Like I said initially, ( I was the one , who started this topic) Korean cars still knock offs of other brands including Toyota and it is Hyundai who is playing catch up. Until Hyundai begins to make its own designs and not steal them from Honda ( Sonata's tail lights) or Toyota, they will be playing a catch up game.
    Hyundai cars are heavy and old style for now and like chinese makers still using other company's designs attaching their own badge.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The Avalon actually had what it should have had all along. Considering the Maxima and the Camry were the ones going head to head for so long. It took Toyota far too long to up the ante on the Camry.

    However, now...the Maxima contends with the Avalon, Azera and other cars of that ilk. The Altima has steadily grown to be up there with the Camry, Accord and now the Sonata.

    So again, in '02 with the unveiling of the Altima with the 3.5 and huge jump to 240 HP...everything changed after that! I understand you just love Toyota, but accept the fact that they lagged and felt they could get by on their dependability alone.

    And yes, right after the '06 Sonata hit, followed by the '06 Azera, Toyota immediately decided to drop the 2GR in the Camry and give it 268 HP (later on after the Azera dropped by the way). I mean, initially, the 2GR in the Camry was only kicking out 210 HP. It wasn't until the sport edition was introduced that they gave it 268 HP. For 2007, the engine became the standard for the V-6 model (both SE & XLE).

    I'm curious to see how Toyota will respond to Hyundai's Genesis when it drops!!! :surprise:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    First of all, you missed the whole point.

    1. Toyota has the 2GR in its inventory at the same time 06' Sonata hit the market so NO, the 06' Sonata DID NOT fuel Toyota to enter the HP war. If you can't understand this let me know, I'll draw a time line for ya.

    2. I do not "love" Toyota. I am as matter of fact a Honda/Acura faithful but am a fan of all Toyota's recent products that came with the 2GR. No one can deny that's one heck of an engine.

    3. Toyota did not "immediately decided to drop the 2GR in the Camry". The 2GR was being decided to go with the NEW CAMRY (which debuted 1 year later than the Sonata) all along. There is no point to drop a brand new engine the almost-end-of-production last gen Camry. Again, if you are confused, I'll provide you with a time line.

    4. I know you love Hyundai but again, NO, Hyundai DID NOT fuel Toyota to enter the HP war.

    5. Toyota do not have to respond to the Genesis. They do have a luxury brand called Lexus which is specialized in RWD, high performance V6s and V8s you know?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    initially, the 2GR in the Camry was only kicking out 210 HP. It wasn't until the sport edition was introduced that they gave it 268 HP.

    WRONG.

    The 2GR is brand new for the 07' Camry. The 210HP V6 used in the prvevious model is not the 2GR. The lowest HP output from the 2GR series is around 260 HP.

    Again, the 2GR is a BRAND NEW engine and is not a evolutionary version from the previous generation V6.

    Edit: the V6 used on the previous gen Camry is the 3MZ series (SE used the 3.3L version and others used the 3.0L version).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well then, actually...you've supported my whole statement!

    Basically...until Hyundai showed up with the Sonata and the Azera...Toyota jumped in with the Camry & Avalon with the 2GR. Is it THAT hard to understand? I know it's hard to give Hyundai credit for something, but I call it like I see it!

    Just accept the fact that Toyota rested on it's laurels and finally, they woke up and smelled the java!!!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    These are from my previous post, you have apparently missed it or choose to ignore it...

    1. Toyota has the 2GR in its inventory at the same time 06' Sonata hit the market so NO, the 06' Sonata DID NOT fuel Toyota to enter the HP war. If you can't understand this let me know, I'll draw a time line for ya.

    2. I do not "love" Toyota. I am as matter of fact a Honda/Acura faithful but am a fan of all Toyota's recent products that came with the 2GR. No one can deny that's one heck of an engine.

    3. Toyota did not "immediately decided to drop the 2GR in the Camry". The 2GR was being decided to go with the NEW CAMRY (which debuted 1 year later than the Sonata) all along. There is no point to drop a brand new engine the almost-end-of-production last gen Camry. Again, if you are confused, I'll provide you with a time line.

    4. I know you love Hyundai but again, NO, Hyundai DID NOT fuel Toyota to enter the HP war.

    5. Toyota do not have to respond to the Genesis. They do have a luxury brand called Lexus which is specialized in RWD, high performance V6s and V8s you know?

    I will give Hyundai credit when it's due (like the Sonata and Azera) but I will NOT give them credit when it's not theirs in the first place.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    what you say is logical and possibly even true - but the facts remain - MBs recent declines in quality correspond almost to the day with the Chrysler acquisition. Didn't understand it then, and surely don't understand it now.

    and even though it makes sense, you refuse to believe that a superior FOREIGN brand could become inferior on their own, especially given a convenient scapegoat like a merger with an American company. That is some powerful reasoning. Rather than just reading CU, I think you work for them. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    In inventory and out on the market are two different things and you know it. Show up to a gun fight, using a knife (even if you have a gun in your pocket)...what does everyone see? A knife. Toyota didn't feel a need to drop the 2GR until Hyundai proved they were ready to step up and play ball.

    Don't worry, Toyota is still billed as one of the MOST reliable name plates. :P

    You can believe what you want about Hyundai having nothing to do with Toyota jumping in feet first into the HP wars, but right now...Toyota fears Hyundai as a competitor.

    I'm a Hyundai owner 3 times over and I've also been a Toyota owner...3 times over. This has nothing to do with bias, but observation.

    Yeah...Toyota has Lexus and you can't touch a new GS430 (which the Genesis will be gunning for) for less than $50K and Hyundai is planning on bringing a E-Class, 5-Series, GS-430 competitor for UNDER $40K. Oh...I'm sure Toyota will feel inclined to respond. If anything...don't be surprised to see the Avalon boosted up in size and stature to compete with the Genesis and the Camry brought up to be in line with the Azera (dimensions-wise). With the Altima already being practically as big as the Maxima, I'm sure the Maxima will get the same treatment as well.

    So what you'll have eventually is...the Avalon vs. Maxima vs. Genesis (don't know what poor Honda is going to do...oh yeah, just continue to be the most fuel efficient name plate in the U.S.). Then you'll see the Azera vs. Camry vs. Altima vs. Accord, as they'll be in the same class as well.

    That being the case...the Sonata could end up being a lone gun slinger unless Honda brings the Civic up to match, then Toyota brings the Corolla up to be amongst them. WHEW!!!

    Of course, this is all speculation and my own opinion, but if you think about it...it kinda makes sense!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Louiswei...

    What's Edmunds' take?
    Hyundai's Concept Genesis makes an incredible proposition on paper — rear-wheel drive, V8 power and a full-on luxury experience for around $30,000. If the company even comes close to delivering on these promises, it could spell trouble for Honda and Toyota. — Erin Riches, Senior Content Editor

    Read the WHOLE article if you will.
    Hyundai Genesis
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The new Camry was on sale on May 06' and the design should be pretty much done with minor details to be added AT LEAST couple years (if not more) before that so that makes it sometimes in 04'. Where's the 06' Sonata at that time? The new Camry was designed to get the 2GR from the very beginning regardless of what Hyundai does. Yes, Toyota is late to the HP war but NO, Hyundai DID NOT trigger them to enter it.

    I won't deny the Genesis looks pretty good if Hyundai can keep its promise by pricing it around $30K. Even if it tops out at $35K I think it's still a great value. However, I am more curious to see how big of a market there is for a V8, RWD luxury car which carries a mainstream badge. If I am Hyundai I would just go ahead and create a luxury brand at the same time the Genesis is debuted. Maybe that's pushing it a little bit but this case Genesis will have less "Hyundai baggage" on its shoulder.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE:1485
    I may be wrong, but I don't believe that Hyundai, at this time, is prepared to spend the money in research, engineering and design that many of the other manufactures do.
    By eliminating some of these design expenses, perhaps by borrowing from others, they are able to hold down the selling price of their cars.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Unless you are a suit @ Toyota, there is no way you can state that the Camry was going to get the 2GR from the begninning. I know it sounds good for your argument, but the fact is...the Sonata dropped (as well as the Azera) before the Camry came out with the 2GR power plant. Simple as that.

    Even if it pushes towards the upper $30K's...it'll still be a huge value. Where will the market be? Those not wanting to pay $50K+ for a GS-430 and still get everything they would have gotten (save for the AWD). They'll get a value based luxo/sport/cruiser and save a huge wad of cash!

    Hyundai isn't going to create a luxury badge because it's too risky for them at this point. They are just getting their name clear of all the past baggage that haunted them. Give them 5-10 more years and they can pull it off if they keep on the path they are on.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Prepared to spend the money on what...the Genesis? Did you read the article??? It's been worked on for the past 4 years...it's a done deal my man! If you're referring to coming out with a luxury name plate...you're absolutely right.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Unless you are a suit Toyota, there is no way you can state that the Camry was going to get the 2GR from the begninning.

    So let's see...Toyota designed the new Camry without knowing how big the engine (dimension and power) would be? Hmm...that makes sense.

    Any design engineers do that would get fired ON THE SPOT. I know that because I am a design engineer as well. Not for cars but those that flys... ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,923
    Of course Toyota intended to put the 3.5 in the Camry from the beginning. It only makes sense to have the same engine in multiple lines. No different from before, the Avalon, Camry, Solara, Highlander, Sienna, ES, RX, have always shared the 3.0/3.3 engines (Except the Avalon never got the 3.3). Nissan has done very well with this technique too. Just think how many vehicles their 3.5 engine is in (Maxima, Altima, Murano, G, etc)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    With absolutely no intention of offending anyone who owns one of these cars, my thoughts on comparisons between the avalon and a few other cars ...I keep reading about the Maxima competing with the avalon. I test drove one.. liked it ok, seemed to have good performance but the workmanship on the inside of the car dosnt compare.. then there's the azera.. nice car, but I don't see much of a comparison here either vs. the avalon. Test drove one of these as well.. ride, power, interior all below the avalon.. and while I realize this is a subjective issue, the azeras body style dosn't compare either.. before anyone labels me a toyota lover, please realize one thing, I considered both the maxima and the azera before buying the avalon..the reason I didnt buy either of those two cars are stated above...Personally, for my money, the best looking car in the avalons class that tempted me was the buick Lucerne... but i couldnt see spending basically the same money for the car with an undersized 197 hp power plant, and I sure wasnt going to pay 2 grand extra for the northstar when I could get a more fuel effecient, and as powerfull a power plant in the avalon. Just my opinion.

    Rp
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...let's try this again. It doesn't matter what was INTENDED initially, it is what was brought out. You could very well be right in that the 2GR was INTENDED to go into the '06 Camry, but...it didn't. They could have very easily offered it in a later model '06, but...they didn't. Instead...they decided to go ahead with it AFTER Hyundai dropped the Sonata AND the Azera. I'm sorry you don't like that, but it's the truth.

    So I guess the fact that the Sonata and Azera both receiving brand new power plants by Hyundai wouldn't mean that they were working on them before as well, huh? Since I'm not a Hyundai exec. I can't say that they started before Toyota began working on the 2GR, but I can still say...they showed theirs before Toyota showed theirs.

    Oh yeah, just because you know the SIZE and DISPLACEMENT of an engine when the car is being designed, doesn't mean you know what the HP is going to be. I guess you're gonna say it was ALWAYS intended to be 268 HP, huh? Yeah, okay...Hyundai drops a 263 HP 3.8 liter V-6 right before Toyota unveils it's 2GR, so they run back tinker a bit and show up with a 268 HP V-6! LOL I'm probably thinking that the original plans for the 2GR were to be around 245-250 HP to enter a shoot-out with the Sonata, Accord and Altima. However, Hyundai dropped the Azera and Nissan restyles the Altima once again and gives it a 270 HP power plant. It only makes sense that Toyota tweaked the 2GR to kick out 268 HP at this point.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    there is an article about this that was posted on Edmunds and it all had to do with Toyota Corporate (California) making a visit to one of Toyota's engine plants (in Missouri, if I recall correctly) and charging them with coming up with a 'ground up' (it actually started with the 4.0 truck engine) new engine that would not only be competitive with what Nissan/Honda were already doing, become the basis for many, many, Toyota/Lexus products (kind of like what Nissan has been doing for years with the VQ - as you correctly note), be a class leader in FE, and ALSO cut $1000.00 of cost out of each and every V6 engine Toyota builds - well back into 02-03. What was developed, of course, is the 2GR - arguably the most advanced engine of its kind, and now available in almost all Toyota/Lexus products and in the process
    saving Toyota hundreds of millions per year in production costs. The engine is now being EXPORTED to Japan, primarily for Lexus which continues to assemble most of their models there. First appeared, of course, in the 05 Avalon (beginning production in late 04), followed shortly thereafter by the RAV, the RX, the IS, ES, LS and so on - and apparently soon in an 08 Supra (in the FSE variant) at somewhere between 350-400 hp - naturally aspirated! It is an amazing accomplishment from an engineering perspective and further proof that it takes money to make money.
    The Camry? Toyota knew it has to do something back at the advent of the midsize sedan HP wars in 2002 (the Altima) and even Honda reacted somewhat quickly, what Hyundai was doing at that time inconsequential, and, therefore, the 2GR was intended for the Camry/ES from day one, 4 or 5 years before it actually made it under the hoods.
    Hyundai has historically been a 'follower' with all their vehicles, but something they are getting better and better at doing!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Nope, the Avalon preceded the Azera by a good 12 months and originally had (non- SAE) ratings of 280hp - which is what my owners manual says. In fact, had Toyota taken the same design and simply bumped it up to the same 3.8 as the Azera, I would guess each and every base2GR would be starting at closer to 300hp and 300 lb ft. The Azera 3.8, as good as it is, is no match for the 2GR - but then again, nothing is!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...very good, however, again I state. The 2GR could have been intended from day 1 for the Camry, but that doesn't mean they knew what the final output of it from day 1.

    So yes, the fact that Toyota when to the drawing board to come up with something that would keep up with what Nissan and Honda were doing means that it had to be something that could easily be tweaked as needed to give them whatever they want. Yes...the 2GR is an amazing engine, I can't deny that.

    Hyundai has been a follower because they've been trying to follow a path blazed by Toyota (why not follow a solid track record?). However, the time has come for Hyundai to start peeking out from under the shadows and from around the corners. Then again, Hyundai has definitely been a leader in producing a solid, value-based product that is very viable...as of late.

    All the companies are known for something...Toyota; reliability, Honda; fuel efficiency, Nissan; performance and Hyundai; value. Now, Hyundai is working on adding performance and reliability and maybe even fuel efficiency to it's resume.

    Only time will tell!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    They could have very easily offered it in a later model '06, but...they didn't.

    Yeah, to drop a brand new engine in a car that's in the last year of its production so the engine bay has to be totally reworked and all that is to keep up with the mighty Hyundai. That sure makes sense "business wise". Thank god you are not in charge of Toyota or any car manufacture in this case.

    Doesn't matter how you spin it, the new Camry is designed to get the 2GR from the very beginning and the 2GR is developed way before the mighty 06' Sonata showed up. Also, didn't the 2GR debut with the Avalon and that's around the same time Hyundai debut its new Sonata? An established car manufacture like Toyota has to stick to its planned schedule to roll out new cars. They don't passively react to what other company (like Hyundai) does.

    Again, I am not denying Toyota showed up late for this HP war but let's refresh my main point:

    Hyundai DID NOT force Toyota to enter the HP war and Toyota sure took its time in order to offer best of the best to the customers.

    Oh yeah, just because you know the SIZE and DISPLACEMENT of an engine when the car is being designed, doesn't mean you know what the HP is going to be.

    Yes yes yes, I am pretty sure those Toyota engineers had no idea what the HP will be for the engine at the same time they were designing the exhaust system!! :confuse:

    As you may have noticed by now. The current lowest output for the 2GR is around 260HP and highest at 306HP with a potential going up to 350HP. All these stats do not support your hypothesis of assuming the 2GR was "originally design for 245-250HP". By the way, the Nissan 270HP VQ came after the Toyota 268HP 2GR thank you very much.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    louis - you are right on - like usual, some revisionist history maybe? Honestly think it will be quite awhile before we see Hyundai, in this case, doing much other than 'keeping up with the Joneses' That said, however, the 'Japan 3' had better pay some attention to what they are doing!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That said, however, the 'Japan 3' had better pay some attention to what they are doing!

    No question about that.

    If Hyundai has its way with Genesis we may soon to see another entry in this board.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhh...but as you said, they knew that the 2GR was going to be in there, so a smaller power plant wouldn't have a problem fitting in there, right?

    How do you know that the exhause system that is employed on the Camry now is the original design? How do you know it wasn't one of the tweaks they went back and took care of? You see...you are speculating as much as I am.

    So to be honest, you have NO idea what the lowest output for the 2GR could have been. All you know now is that it's 268 HP. ;) Why...because that's what they finally showed up with my friend.

    So...unless you're a Toyota suit behind the scenes, calling the shot or at least part of the decision making process...you have no clue as to the actual specs there were on the orginal design of the 2GR or what the initial intended HP output was to be for the Camry. Yes, you can say that Toyota had been developing the engine for some time, yes you can say it was meant to go in the Camry from day one, but you can't state that the 2GR's lowest output was going to be.

    Like I said...it COULD have been targeted for 245-250 HP range, (and we'll remove the Altima's 270 HP engine for the sake of the argument) because the Altima also had the 260 HP variant offered right before the re-design for '07. So why is it crazy for Toyota to say, "Hey...how much tweaking would it take to go from 250 HP to 268 HP?" What's wrong with them going back and making those necessary changes (which wouldn't seem to be much) and move forward?

    You see, the argument you make about the 2GR being an engine that would allow Toyota to do that VERY thing is what you're not arguing against.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    allmet - if you had asked me what I thought about Hyundai products a few years back you would have gotten some much different comments than you have been reading lately. They are, indeed, getting their act together. :D And they deserve some kudos for building what is one of the most advanced and efficient plants in the world - in Alabama (currently for the Sonata/Santa Fe) and 'pumping' money back in our economy.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,923
    The 3.5 in the Avalon and Camry are the exact same design, and share almost everything. This design as others have said dates back to late '04 in the '05 Avalons. You mean to tell me that Toyota would short change its best selling vehicle by 20 or so HP, and only matched the power spec in the Avalon to compete with the '06 Sonata? Come on, the much simpler solution was to copy the Avalon's power plant, which they did and intended to do from the start.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhh...but as you said, they knew that the 2GR was going to be in there, so a smaller power plant wouldn't have a problem fitting in there, right?

    I don't understand what are you trying to say here...

    Okay...back to square one.

    Do you agree that the new Avalon was debut around the same time as the 06' Sonata?

    Yes - keep reading.
    No - discussion over.

    If both came out around the same time and Avalon's 2GR has 268HP how can you make a case that the 2GR was originally designed for lower output? Also, how can you make a case about the might 06' Sonata force the Camry to get the 2GR and Toyota to enter the HP war?

    You are right, I am speculating as much as you do but apparently I have stats and history to back me up with.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's find our way back to the large sedans and hop over to Auto News for these brand debates. Most of you are already discussing these things over there anyway. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...I would have to agree on that. When I bought my '02 Sonata, it was more out of necessity than want. I had recently totalled my '96 Camry (which I LOVED by the way) and I had owned two previous Toyotas before...I loved Toyota. However, for a Camry comparably equipped to match the Sonata I ended up with...Toyota wanted $23K, I only paid $16,800 for the Sonata. However, in the 4 years that followed, the Sonata made me forget all about the Camry I had and gave me a new perspective on Hyundai's products.

    Now, I've heard of all the problems folks have with the service departments and on that issue, I got lucky. The dealership where I bought mine from had a great service department with folks that were knowledgable as well as personable. Never had any mechanical issues that were left unexplained or service problems with idiot techs.

    Like I've said before, Hyundai is slowly shedding that bad image they have carried for so long. No, it won't happen overnight, and no, not everyone will believe. However, Hyundai is quickly becoming a respectable product name and folks aren't too quick to scoff at them any more.

    The ONLY reason I jumped on my '06 Azera was because of the experience I had with my '02 Sonata. I didn't think twice when I purchased my Azera and so far...I haven't felt a need to 2nd guess my decision either.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I didn't say Avalon, I said Camry. Sheesh!!!

    I never, ever said that the Hyundai 3.8 is a match for the 2GR. It'll be a long, long time before Hyundai ever makes an engine that has Toyota scratching their heads. However, the leaps and bounds that Hyundai has made with their engines is very kudos worthy.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    how about this - Toyota has 2 sedans in 2004, that are essentially identical, both with 200hp V6s, one of which is called the Avalon is the 'flagship' and is slugging along at 3000 sales/ month, the other is called a Camry and it is the best selling car in the US, at more than 30000/month despite being 'limited' power wise. Toyota already had this new engine designed (obviously a solid entry in the HP race) - oh dear - what to do? Maybe exactly what they did do - put the engine in the Avalon, a completely new car not even related to the Camry anymore, and change something had been talked about in the same sentences as Buick, into something completely different - sales jumped from 3000 to about 10000/month. I think it even surprised them and for quite awhile you couldn't even find one on the lots. And, in the process, Toyota can now use their experiences gained in the Avalon before they 'take a chance' by putting the engine in the best selling car in the country and several other models - sounds like a pretty solid plan to me?
    Derate the engine for use in the Camry? WHY? Instead they can set a new standard, one that still exists to this day?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...now you're muddying your history and stats. Actually, the Avalon with the 2GR debuted (as an '05) before the '06 Sonata, and the 2Gr had 280 HP. Discussion over!

    Then, Hyundai dropped the Sonata with 240 HP, and then the Azera with 263 HP. Funny, THEN Toyota decides to show up with the Camry with the 2GR pumping 268 HP. Am I right? Thank you...discussion over.

    So really...you're a bit turned around in what you've been saying here. The 2GR shows up first in the Avalon with an output of 280 HP. Then, to go in the Camry, they have to re-work it and ease the output a bit down to 268 HP. Toyota probably could have designed it any way they wanted to give any output they desired...now isn't that on of the purposes of the design of the 2GR?

    My question is this, do you have any stat or history to prove that had Hyundai not dropped the 263 HP Azera, that Toyota would have still given the Camry a 268 HP output? No...discussion over, thank you very much!

    Oh yeah, and what I was saying is...the re-designed Camry intially came out with a smaller engine, right? They did the re-design with the 2GR in mind, right? Do I need to simplify for you? The re-designed Camry had an engine bay bigger than what the current engine needed because Toyota knew they were going to eventually put the 2GR in it! DUHHH! No need to re-work anything, just drop the 2GR in and keep on going!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The 280HP is non-SAE rated and 268HP is SAE rated. At end of the day, they have the SAME OUTPUT.

    No, the re-designed Camry did NOT initially come out with a smaller engine. It came out with the current 268HP 2GR-FE which is about 99.9% same as the one on Avalon.

    The 06' Camry is the old model.
    The 07' is the new model.

    Why would Toyota drop the 2GR into the 06' when 07' is just around the corner? I really don't understand what your point is.

    As matter of fact, since Avalon was introduced before the might 06' Sonata with the 268HP 2GR it further solidified my "speculation" that Hyundai did NOT force Toyota to enter the HP war.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you're a bit turned around in what you've been saying here. The 2GR shows up first in the Avalon with an output of 280 HP. Then, to go in the Camry, they have to re-work it and ease the output a bit down to 268 HP
    Nope again, Toyota didn't 'rework or ease' the HP on anything, the 12hp decrease was NOT a result of any engine change - it was simply a result of SAE testing method changes qand rules and effected primarily Honda and Toyota products for the 06 model year.
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