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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Stating first my happy ownership of an Azera (having had an Avalon and an XG350L), let me join in by saying I do think Hyundai has been more of a follower than a leader (except with warranties, which its previously lousy build/repair record forced).

    The new version Avalon was out with the 2GR engine a year before the Sonata or Avalon. But who cares. What Hyundai seems to do is to let other brands bring out a technology, then improve it, see what the public thinks, and then Hyundai offers it for less money, or on more of its models. Vehicle Stabilization or Hyundai's Electronic Stability Control is an example. The first time I had it it was in an 00 Avalon XLS, where it was standard equipment with that trim. I loved it. I noticed that the next year, it became an option even on the highest content Avalon. (I think it put the Avalon too close to Lexus territory). What Hyundai has done is to put it in virtually all its models (high and low) as standard equipment. No other manufacturer I am aware of, has done that. It might be fair to say that Hyundai follows technology from other brands and then leads in making it more readily available.

    I know the engine in the concept Genesis is a brand new one for Hyundai (but making a V8 is not exactly a new technology). What I expect is for Hyundai again to take "high end" technology like adaptive cruise control, HID lights, heated and cooled seats, etc., and offer them in a vehicle for far less than other brands are charging. I doubt any thing on the "Genesis" will be bleeding edge, but expect it to be within view of cutting edge and all of it tested, well built, and amazingly affordable for all we will get.

    Is that leading or following. In my mind it is a little of both, Hyundai is not an "early adaptor", but they now do a very decent job of copying and refining, and then lead in bringing it out on a wider scale at a better price. And they are now building cars of quality.

    That is what Toyota and others have to worry about. They must worry about the amount they spend on research and development to be cutting edge (bleeding being left to the Germans) and getting the public to want the technology and then having Hyundai (and I assume others like the Chinese) then building on what they developed and selling it without having had the massive up front development costs.

    Previously, I think Toyota under the Lexus Division did exactly the same thing to BMW and MB as Hyundai is now doing to Toyota. And we have all benefited from that tactic (unless you have stock in or work for Ford, GM, or Chrysler).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    :blush: Oh my...you are right about the Camry issue. Sorry.

    However...you still don't have an answer as to what they might have done had Hyundai not dropped a 263 HP Azera! The answer is...you don't know.

    Maybe Hyundai, specifically, didn't force them into the HP wars, however...the timing of everything sure makes it look like they did!!!

    Heck...if it wasn't for Nissan and Honda jumping the way they did, they would all be plugging along!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Very well stated!!!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...wrong, the stated output for the Avalon is 280 HP, the Camry...268 HP. It must be as such or Toyota will face a class action law suit like Hyundai did over the HP discrepancy concerning the 02-03 models.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you still don't have an answer as to what they might have done had Hyundai not dropped a 263 HP Azera! The answer is...you don't know
    actually, I think I do, and I believe the answer is that they couldn't care less, the XG 350, at that time not being competitive to the old Avalon in their minds, never mind the new one. Same really applies to the Sonata as well, Toyota (however mistakenly) is much more concerned with what Honda and Nissan are doing. The well conceived Azera, OTH, a much different color of horse, IMPO.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Whoops, meant the 2GR was out before the Sonata or AZERA.

    BTW, are there any car companies that have not significantly made available increased HP over the last 5 years??? Finally even Ford has upped the HP in the 500/Taurus.

    If the race is on, then the Bugatti Veyron with 1000HP has won. Of course, I could not afford to insure it, let alone own it. So, what is the point of who got to whatever hp first???
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Do you have a torque graph for that motor? The torque at low speeds is what makes the driving experience.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    had to do with fuel type and a power steering pump among a few other things. I guarantee you that there is no difference between my '280hp' Avalon engine, and the 268hp engines in the 06s/07s or FTM the 07 Camry. There were some 05 Avalon owners that somehow felt 'cheated', believe it or not - but it is, after all, only a number!
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I can't think of a single reason to knock the Avalon. It's a great car and real value versus so many others that are out there. (Now the Buick is another matter).

    I also feel the same about the Azera and believe, having had both and driven a new 06 AV Limited a fair amount that the Azera is QUITE close to the Avalon and is a much better value for me. I just do not think the Avalon is $4K-$5K better And yes, I understand the resale issue, but I still had to come up with that $4,900 difference (in my case), and I could not justify it.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Let's face it, you cannot go wrong with any of the four cars you mentioned. I think it can be broken down like this:

    Maxima - Sportiest
    Azera - Best Value
    Lucerne - Softest ride, old school bullet proof technology
    Avalon - best compromise in terms of power, ride, handling and economy (in this class of course).

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I would be willing to go with that analysis as a decent generality. I can even believe that there are some who may even like the looks of the Buick the best (us older geezers).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    now that I like - except that us 'old geezers' might just surprise you once in a while! The Avalon buyer median age used to be 63 - several years older than me. But the car sold relatively well because it offered a lot of what a Buick did - right up to and including bench seats and column shifters - with the Toyota name and associated reliability and resale values. Can imagine that some of those faithful (and older) Avalon customers were scared away by the '05 when it came out. 'Scaring the bejeepers out of poor ole Gramps' by simply pushing the accelerator too hard, perhaps. Conservative Buicks (and FTM cars like the CV/Grand Marquis) still remain, however, for those that really like 'slow and docile' but would bet that you'll see less new Avalons in the retirement community parking lots than you used to..
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    If others looked at this way too, there would be a lot less debate.

    I agree...you can't go wrong with any of those 4, but it boils down to why you are buying and what you're expecting.

    If you want the sporty, harder ride...the Maxima gives you that. It's not a luxury ride, so the inside isn't going to be what you'll find in the Avalon or the Azera.

    If you want luxury, but you don't want to spend a lot for it...the Azera is your choice. It doesn't have an overly soft ride, yet...you're not inclined to throw it into curves on a twisty road either. The fit and finish for the Azera belies it's value as you definitely get more for your money (materially).

    If you want sound luxury, fuel economy and top notch technology with a proven reliability track record...the Avalon gives all of that to you. However, you do pay a little bit more for it.

    Then...if the foreign entries aren't your cup of tea and you want to keep your money in domestic hands, the Lucerne and even the upgraded 500 are strong offerings too.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually...you are correct, both the Avalon and the Camry are putting out the same HP for '07. Honestly...that sucks!!! As an Avalon owner, I would feel cheated in that. A flagship car sharing what someone could pay much less for (in a sense).

    What's really sad, is...the Camry is not far off when it comes to the innner dimensions from the Avalon. THAT...really sucks.

    That's what I faced when I bought my '02 Sonata. The XG at the time was practically identical in size (interior), but offered a few more amenities and about 20 more HP. If I was gonna spend that much more...the car should have offered more.

    That being said, I'm starting to beleive that a fully loaded Camry is a better value than a fully loaded Avalon! :surprise: The Avalon has a few things that the Camry doesn't, only gains an inch or two here and there on the interior, almost equal trunk space and the Camry is a bit lighter which means a bit better FE. Yeah...the true value would be with the Camry. Avalon owners are beign cheated on this one! LMAO
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Wish you guys would just drop it or make a new forum for it if you think it really exists.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You're funny!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    By all means, if you can't tell the difference between 2 cars, buy the cheaper one. Makes sense.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You can tell the difference in how they look, but when you really break them down and start comparing numbers and other statistical data...that's where they become almost twins. In that case...you're right!!!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Hahaha! Hardly twins described below:

    2002 XG 350 3.5 liter 194@5500 and a torque rating of 216@3500.

    2002 Sonata 2.7 liter 170 @6000 HP Torque: 181 @4000 ft-lbs

    Performance specs from Edmunds Comparison tests:

    XG 350 beat 2 out of 3 2002 competitors in the races. It beat the automatic Camry V6 and the manual transmission Passat GLX V-6. The then new 240 HP Altima 3.5 SE was the quickest with a 0-60 mph time of 7.4 seconds and a 1/4 mile time of 15.5 seconds.
    (In another 5 car comparison test, Sonata was a distant 5th place loser.)

    XG 350
    3.5 liters motor
    194 HP at 5500 RPM
    216 torque at 3500 RPM
    7.7 seconds 0-60 MPH
    15.9 seconds 1/4 mile
    127 ft. 60-0 braking
    60.6 mph slalom
    18/26 city/hwy EPA MPG

    Sonata
    2.7 liters motor
    170 HP at 6000 RPM
    181 torque at 4000 RPM
    9.1 seconds 0-60 MPH
    16.8 seconds 1/4 mile
    132 ft. 60-0 braking
    60.0 mph slalom
    19/27 city/hwy EPA MPG

    XG 350 has 103 cubic feet for passengers, 15 for luggage.
    Sonata has 100 cubic feet for passengers, 13 for luggage.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Hey Joe...I did this when I was looking at the '02 models. From a money standpoint, the XG didn't discerne itself enough to justify me paying the extra money for it.

    Also, I didn't buy for racing either.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yes, those numbers are for 2002 models.
    And yes, the XG had a higher MSRP.
    My point is they are not twins.
    The XG has better performance and is bigger.
    Guess you'll have to agree on those things.

    Whether the benefits are worth your money? Of course that is your decision, I'm not arguing that.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I didn't say they were twins, I said the numbers when it came to interior dimensions were very, very similar. Sitting in the two...you didn't see the 4 extra cu. ft. of space.

    Considering the XG had 22 more HP and weighed only slightly more than the Sonata, the performance SHOULD be better. Again, I didn't buy the car for performace.

    However, the looks of the Sonata did more for me than the XG did. Just loved having a baby jag! ;)

    However...if you look at the '07 Avalon & Camry, outside of sheet metal, they are darn near twins!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    You said, "...when you really break them down and start comparing numbers and other statistical data...that's where they become almost twins."
    So that's what I did, gave you numbers and other statistical data to compare. But the data shows they are not almost twins.

    But yes, by all means, if you can't tell the difference between the '07 Camry and Avalon, buy the cheaper one (like you did with the Hyundais earlier).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay..taken too literal (and my fault for not specifying). I was referring to the interior room numbers. Honestly...if I was going to pay the difference...I wanted more car, I wanted more room.

    Go ahead and take a look at the Camry and Avalon and tell if you don't see what I'm talking about though. Do you feel that there is $6K worth of difference between the two?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    What's really sad, is...the Camry is not far off when it comes to the innner dimensions from the Avalon. THAT...really sucks.
    before you make a statement like that you really need to sit in the Avalon and then the Camry, especially the back seat which is really only rivaled by the back seat in the 500. Numbers can be misleading, the Avalon feels and indeed is much larger than even the Azera (which is no slouch in that dept) never mind the new Camry but only has one lousy cubic foot more of interior volume (than the Azera). It is not necessarily how much space there is but also how it is used.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I have sat in both and I know exactly what you mean, but...the numbers don't lie and that's what I've been talking about all along. Personally, I would have loved to have seen the Avalon retain the 280 HP it had.

    Exactly my point between the XG and the Sonata. However...I don't ride in the back seat so my back seat feedback doesn't matter. My children do and with both of them being girls that may grow to be no more than 5'6" at the most...

    You are quite correct in your assessment. One advantage the Avalon has over all is the reclining rear seat, that makes a huge difference in perceived rear room when one is back there.

    The interior space is cavernous in my Azera compared to the Sonata I had. There was no way I was about drop $22K on the XG back in '02, but the Azera was well worth the $26K I paid for it.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    LARGE sedans, please??
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No offense, but...Azera and Avalon.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Um, huh? There are a number of vehicles being batted around here that aren't in the large sedan category. We really, really, REALLY need to get back on topic.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay, okay...we'll drop the lil guys from the convo! ;)
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    A good choice for you back then might have been a Ford Crown Victoria. More car, more room. And a pound per dollar good buy too!

    Avalon and Camry? Neither one is worth my money I suspect. I favor the Azera and Sonata.
    But if and when I'm in the market for that type of new car, I'll research and test all of them.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You're REALLY funny! LOL

    Currently, I'm loving my Azera and I'm itching to see the new Genesis.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    You said, "... Avalon feels and indeed is much larger than even the Azera (which is no slouch in that dept) never mind the new Camry but only has one lousy cubic foot more of interior volume (than the Azera)."

    Huh? How do you figure?

    Passenger Volume 107 Azera, 107 Avalon, 101 Camry
    Luggage....Volume.. 17 Azera,. 14 Avalon,.. 15 Camry

    EPA figures for 2007 models. www.fueleconomy.gov

    (Sonata is 105/16)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Joe...come on now, he just needed to leave out ...indeed is much lager than... He did go on to mention that it's not about the actual numbers, but how the space is used.

    Actually...sitting in the rear of the Avalon with the seats up, the ceiling height was lower than in the Azera. With the seats reclined, it's not a big issue. However...you don't need to recline the seats in the Azera! ;)

    Technically (according to Edmunds) luggage capacity for the Avalon is 14.4, that's what happens when you want reclining rear seats!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    How about that Camry comment?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Sorry, can't talk about the Camry any more...it's not a large sedan. :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    OK but you didn't read the post - sit in the Camry vs the Avalon and then tell me that they are the same size (that poster's contention)- the same situation that exists between the Sonata and Azera. The Sonata is not anywhere near as big and comfortable as that Azera even though your numbers may say it is. There is a lot more to usable space then just numbers!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Those reclining seatds BTW only go about 10 or 15 degrees which idoesn't sound like much, except that it makes all the difference in the world if you happen to be a full size American male stuck back there for several hours. Do find myself wishing for a larger trunk at times and certainly a price I pay for not only those seats but also the full size spare. However, for 4 adults in a 4 door sedan on a long trip, the Avalon has no peers except for possibly the 500, the front seats of which I found uncomfortable. Those reclining seats BTW are standard on all Avalons and are generally found only on premium models from Lexus, BMW, MB and Nissan, so it is not a question of 'wanting' them - you either like them or you don't or prefer to fold down the seats and turn your car into a station wagon.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I never said as comfortable, just said that going by the numbers...they are not far off from each other. As stated before...it's not the actual number, but how the space is used. I'll definitely agree that the interior of the Camry doesn't feel as spacious as the Avalon.

    Oh yeah, 4 adults sit very comfortably in the Azera as well. ;)
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yeah, I read the posts (which post are you referring to?), but the way they are written makes it hard to understand what the writer meant.

    For the record, I'll make three points:
    I do not believe the Camry and Avalon are the same size.
    I do not believe the Sonata and Azera are the same size.
    I do not believe the Sonata is as comfortable as Azera.

    What did the poster mean when he wrote, "...Avalon feels and indeed is much larger than even the Azera (which is no slouch in that dept) never mind the new Camry but only has one lousy cubic foot more of interior volume (than the Azera)."
    I'm guessing he means Avalon feels bigger than Azera, Avalon is much larger in fact than Azera, Azera is no slouch in the size dept. Those seem pretty clear.
    But when it comes to the Camry comment, does it mean Avalon is much larger than Camry? Or does it mean Camry is one cubic foot larger than Azera? Or does it mean Avalon is one cubic foot larger than Azera? Or does it mean Camry is no slouch in the size dept?
    Hard to tell the way it is written.

    If you are referring to allmet's post, he has already admitted he can't really notice/feel much difference between one car and another. That's his perception/opinion. Can't argue about those things, so I won't.

    Measurements of legrooom, headroom, shoulder room and hiproom are measuremnts of usable space, if you have a normal human body with all of those bodyparts, e.g. I suppose if you have no head then headroom does not matter much, right?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Azera and Avalon both shine in many areas we are discussing. Volume, power (oh, by the way, the all-aluminum Lambda engines in the Azera/Sonata are also very flexible and can be tuned to upwards of 300hp), comfort, safety, luxury, etc...

    I know you guys are going to hate me for bringing CR into this but their studies show Azera can run head-to-head with Avalon, with Azera winning in areas such as customer satisfactions, and predicted reliability, and Avalon winning in areas such as fuel efficiency and resale values, each other neck by neck in the large sedan class. This especially bodes well for the Azera, a first year and unknown model, especially something from Hyundai.

    At the end of the day, there are no wrong choices. Personally I would take the Azera and the savings but that's just me ;)
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Until someone beats it. :confuse:

    Who started this?

    DrFill
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    For 2006 models

    Positioning the (Avalon's) front seat for our standard-seating mannequin (an average-dimension six-foot male), the rear seat affords our same mannequin 6.2 inches of knee room--yep, half a foot. That's 2.4 more than in the Azera, 3.2 more than in the Passat, and the sort of stretch space a pricey ticket buys you on Virgin Atlantic.

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0603_fullsize_sedan_comparison/toy- ota_avalon_interior_engine.html
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1553
    It would have been nice if Motor Trend compared all of the interior measurements side by side.
    In my opinion, the real test will be when Toyota introduces it's 2nd. generation Avalon. How will Hyundai respond? They should have added a few more of the available features of the Korean model to the 07 US version.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    thanks for posting this comparo - IMPO one of the fairest I've read:
    - it confirms several things -
    1) the Avalon is measurably quicker than the Azera and does get almost 4 mpg more while it does it.
    2) the Avalon rear seat is (with apologies to the 500) the most spacious in its class, as you quoted
    3) Interior volume measurements can be misleading
    4)The Azera is 'softer' and does offer a 'better' ride than the sport tuned Avalon Touring. Don't think that would have been the same had they tested an XLS/Ltd., but, OTH, then the 'softer' Avalon would have been downgraded for being 'sloppier'.
    5) this test really ended up in a 3 way tie, that close - the Azera being lauded for its value, the Passat (which I regard as a 'mid-size' car) for its sporting performance and power (neck and neck with the Av), the Avalon first as the best compromise.
    It does confirm that, indeed, Hyundai has managed to design and build a car that is definitely competitive in this 'near-luxo' class. Best value? - probably - the jury's still out on long term resale values and/or reliability (although preliminary results on this last count are really good).
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    A local Lincoln/Merc. dealer in Syracuse NY is advertising
    a new 07 Grand Marquis for $18.9xx plus tax and tag.

    Not a bad deal for a REAL old school large sedan! :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't expect the 08 Avalon to be significantly different, Toyota has a history of 4 to 5 year product cycles - for 08 I'm guessing the 6 speed automatic and standard VSC/TRAC, both of which may NOT be real improvements. As far as the Azera is concerned, I don't know that it needs much other than an optional NAV system and possibly a tightened up 'sports' model, although a visit or two to 'Jenny Craig' would help both power and FE - but I wonder whether the Hyundai shopper is ready for a Hyundai with a sticker price well over $30k?
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Dealers commonly advertise an ultra low price on a single vehicle as a way of luring buyers to the dealership for a "bait and switch" scheme.
    You should not place a high level of faith in dealership's newspaper ads.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_switch
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    Rear leg room is nice on the Avalon, but when my head hits the roof even with the back seat reclined, all the leg room in the world won't make up for that. If it had only an inch more rear headroom it would be perfect!
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Generally tall car buyers would never ride in the back seat of their own car under any circumstances (especially with someone else just as tall in the front seat), yet they make the ability to sit comfortably in the rear "behind themself" an important issue in choosing their vehicle.

    Even if someone else might drive the car, common sense would have the tallest passenger ride in the front passenger seat.
    If you occasionally have several very tall passengers and one must ride in back and their head brushes the headliner for a 20 minute ride to eat dinner out, "oh well." They can deal with it.
    It is an issue that probably won't ever come up in most people's lives.
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