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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    JAX.........This is advertised at a "old school" long
    time 1 owner L-M dealer............

    Clearly posted in ad x at this price y more in stock.
    They have always posted their ads like this.
    Heritage L-M Syracuse NY

    I wish other dealers in my area were like these guys!
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE:1560
    How about us NBA players?
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    It's easy to discount head room when it isn't a factor for you personally. For those of us who are used to living in a vertically challenged world, it's a great feeling to be able to "relax" and sit up rather than be forced to slouch into a car seat.

    You guys love your cars and have blathered on quite repetitively about power, FE, resale, warranty, etc. so don't summarily dismiss someone's genuine concern to be comfortable whether it be in the front OR back seat. Tall people occasionally have tall friends and these groups of tall people sometimes travel further than to a local restaurant. On such trips, none of us are all that worried about resale value, whether we have 20 hp more or less than the similary sized car driving beside us, or if we're getting 28 vs. 30 mpg. What we DO care about is being able to enjoy ourselves once we reach our destination without having a stiff neck or sore back.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Same guy pimping Hyundai a month later. I know you love Hyundai with a passion, but come on...

    LARGE CARS.
    To be considered for this category, it must be larger than a Toyota Camry, Buick LaCrosse, or Hyundai Sonata. Seating 6 is preferable. RWD is optimal, of course.

    How about making it simpler.
    It must seat three adults in the rear seat in comfort. If it doesn't pass this litmus test, it's not a large car.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    It must seat three adults in the rear seat in comfort. If it doesn't pass this litmus test, it's not a large car.

    Works for me. Also, I'm thinking the under $30k is a little too restrictive. Does anyone think we should adjust that, or even just drop it?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    How about "Large Sedans from Non-Luxury Brand Comparison" or "Non-Luxury Large Sedans Comparison"?
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    If you drop anything, drop this thread. It has little to do with competitive comparisons to Azera. As we have seen recently the blabbering about engine sizes & HP in Camry vs. Sonata (not large sedans) to Avalon was at best a yawn. Some of these people need to take a deep breath and consider anger management support groups.

    The various sub-topics should be exclusive to Azera.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    I believe the "Large Sedans for Under $30,000 Comparision" is a thread which appears in a number of forums besides the Azera forum. For example, I see it's also in the Toyota Avalon forum... ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    To answer you and gamleged and anyone else who is wondering, this discussion resides on the main Sedans board. It is linked to every group of all the cars listed at the top.

    We've established this before, but let's do it again: this is not an Azera discussion. It is a discussion about all of the listed vehicles. You can certainly stop following it if it doesn't interest you. Okay? :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    What's a better term for "non-luxury"? That's what we need and I can't think of one at the moment. I guess we could use that if there isn't one...
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The Sonata is BIGGER than the Maxima, so why not include Sonata here too? EPA classifies Sonata as a large car but classifies Maxima as a mid-sized car. All Sonatas are also under $30,000. Maxima SLE is not.

    EPA volume, 2007 Maxima / 2007 Sonata:

    Passenger Volume 104 ft3 (4D) 105 ft3 (4D)
    Luggage... Volume. 16 ft3 (4D).. 16 ft3 (4D)

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

    Also, you say, "... making it simpler. It must seat three adults in the rear seat in comfort... If it doesn't...it's not a large car."

    But that's a problem. What seems comfortable is totally subjective so it cannot be a litmus test. A litmus test is NEVER subjective.

    How about just using the EPA size classification as the litmus test on whether a car is large?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    How about "Mainstream Marque Large Sedan Comparison"?
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    It doesn't.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "I wonder whether the Hyundai shopper is ready for a Hyundai with a sticker price well over $30k?"

    I think so. The fact the majority of Azeras are purchased with the Limited trim, and many opt for the Ultimate package, which puts the price north of $30K (despite the price tag, there are tons of neat features packed into the car).

    As they say, you build a good car, there will be buyers. As long as Hyundai continues doing what they have been doing the last decade or so, consumers are definitely ready for a $30K+ Hyundai. They already do, as a matter of fact, including the Azera, newly released Veracruz, and soon, its luxury RWD sedan.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1574
    I still believe that although Hyundai produces a good value car, they have not been able to attract the Generation X buyer in the sedan market.
    Most of the buyers that I see are either the entry level, SUV, or like me, slightly gray or gray er.
    I think that they must work harder to attract the younger affluent buyers.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    'seating 3 in comfort in the rear seat' that would be too subjective - 3 what - border collies? Recently was stuck in the rear seat of a Town Car, at 6' I would tell you that even that car as bloated as it is, is not even comfortable for one, no leg room. The Sonata and Camry have a better rear seat, never mind the 500s/Avalons/300s/Azeras etc.. As one poster put it, very, very few of us spend much time in our own back seats anyway and would never buy anything with a front bench - no lateral support and generally less comfortable. Don't have any problem, with giving pletko his wish, though, include those GMs and CVs - as bad as they are, they certainly are big and very very cheap!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    they have not been able to attract the Generation X buyer in the sedan market.
    likely true, that GenX buyer will spend the extra money for a name and a perception, might overextend themselves putting a BMW/Lexus/MB in their driveways while those greybeards you are talking about wouldn't give a darn about what others think and want their car to be necessarily comfortable and in large part, a reliable appliance. It will take a while for Hyundai to lose its 'Korean' car image and sell well to younger buyers - in the meanwhile, I'm guessing that many Azera buyers are folks that legitimately could have afforded to spend more....
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    Many of the Azera buyers could afford to spend more because they choose to buy Azeras instead of BMW/LEXUS/MB and there fore saved their money.
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    I have seen the term near luxury used in other classifications by other organizations. And perhaps a separate class for us tall folks who want ot be able to fit in our cars?
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    "perhaps a separate class for us tall folks who want to be able to fit in our cars"

    That would be "convertibles!"... ;)
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    If you make the heading EPA large sedans, which actually sell for under $30,000, not sticker for under $30,000, you could easily eliminate virtually ALL of the Avalon/Azera discussion. How many Avalons sold actually sticker for under $30,000? Only the base Avalon XL even has an MSRP under $30,000. The Touring, with destination charges, is over, as are ALL the rest of the Avalon model -- WAY OVER.

    To be fair, my Azera Limited, with Ultimate Option, floor mats, etc. stickered for just over $30,000 at $30,429. And the coming Limiteds with the new Ultimate package will still sticker for under $31K. How many will sell for under $30K -- ALL OF THEM.

    Just wait till we start seeing the new Azera GLS with the 3.3 liter engine on the lots. Its base sticker is for under $25,000. That should be interesting for this forum.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You can get a Grand Marquis for under $20K quite consistently. ;)

    My personal litmus test is simpler still, but I didn't originally include it since it would elicit a firestorm of flak from MR Hyundai.

    "To be considered a "large sedan" it must offer seating for 6."

    Can't be much simpler than that. Of course, that kills almost all of the market now, since every car has this bloated center console from hell in it. It kills the entire purpose of having a large car - to carry the whole family in it instead of a SUV.(seating for 6 is virtually the same as 7 for 95%+ of families)
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Plekto, maybe you need to be shopping/reading in the minivan forums if you like 6 passenger sedans.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1582
    Obviously to seat 6, the car must have either a front bench seat, a jump seat, or be a limo.
    I may be old, but not that old.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Some a few cars do offer it, which is nice.
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    I have one and it has plenty of head room! It is a 1974 Eldorado.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the new Azera GLS with the 3.3 liter engine on the lots. Its base sticker is for under $25,000. That should be interesting
    Haven't heard this one - would suggest to you that it will be underpowered, given that the Azera is overweight to begin with - and from personal observation still not very good with a gallon of gas - the Sonata isn't. Would further suggest to you Azera owners, that nobody will gain if Hyundai makes a cheaper Azera, such things cheapen the name and ultimately hurt resale values, something that I understand NOBODY who bought an Azera worries about, they all plan to keep their cars 12 years when the national average for all cars is between 3 and 4. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    hardhawk, have no idea how tall you are or at what height you consider finding an appropriate car a problem - but understand that the mfgrs of all cars must design to a 'norm'. Leg room is more easily accomodated for, than torso and arm lengths. Abnormally heavy folks will have the same sort of problem - for a different reason. If these kind of things were designed in, a far greater portion of the population couldn't drive at all? Feel for you, though, my son at 6'6" and about 260 had very limited choices.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai is expanding options for consumers. The soon availability of 4 cylinder on all Sonata trims will allow the Azera GLS to slide in nicely. I don't know if creating a $25 price tag would cheapen the name and directly correlate to resale values.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    if creating a $25 price tag would cheapen the name and directly correlate to resale values.
    you can pretty much bet on it - the Sonata V6 can generally be bought for about $5k cheaper than a similar Accord or Camry - almost exactly the difference in value after 3 years. The point being that the Sonata really didn't save much money at all and because all values of vehicles are directly related to what they sell for new. The Avalon holds it value better than any of the others in this group because it does cost more upfront, isn't discounted much, and does have that 'Toyota' reputation. The same 'false savings' may happen to the Azera especially if it becomes possible to buy that GLS for a smidgen over/under 20k or for some reason Hyundai starts discounting the 3.8 models heavily.
  • pahefner01pahefner01 Member Posts: 202
    What size person can realistically sit in that middle front seat position in the Grand Marquis? They will have to have very short legs or no feet and deal with the folded up armrest and the seat belt couplers in their back. That middle seat postion is about as worthwhile as the "jump seats" in the small and midsize pickup trucks.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Understand the purpose of the GLS version is to allow consumers the opportunity to have a premium vehicle without breaking the bank. I don't believe the GLS will cheapen the Azera nameplate, as it almost replaced the current base trim of the SE (with the SE now being upgraded).

    I agree with you, however, on the resale values, something Hyundai needs to improve (they have been showing good improvements, based on what I could tell, along with their dramatic increases in quality and reliability - they are defn. moving in the right direction).

    One thing to ponder, if the Sonata V6 can be purchased with 5K less than Camcords, (I don't know, your estimate is as good as mine), I would put it into investment and see if the money would grew to 7K ;) j/k but the other point about the lower price would mean lower interest expense incurred during the duration of the loan, unless paid off initially :)
  • dandydon2dandydon2 Member Posts: 77
    I'm a very satisfied owner of a 2006 Avalon Ltd. with 5,600 miles on it. I like to change cars every 2 or 3 years and have been waiting to hear what Toyota plans for the next generation Avi. BUT, I just saw a writeup on the Hyundai Genesis concept and it looks OUTSTANDING!. Here's part of what The Car Connection says:

    "The Genesis concept is the first preview of the 'future architecture and design of a rear-wheel drive premium sports sedan scheduled to grace the Hyundai lineup in 2008,' the release says.

    The Genesis concept is formed around a rear-wheel-drive architecture, a first for an American-market Hyundai. With a weight distribution of 53:47, a new 'Tau' V-8 engine with more than 300 horsepower and a six-speed automatic transmission, Hyundai says the Genesis will accelerate to 60 mph in less than 6.0 seconds and will reach a top speed of 130 mph."

    And the photo looks terrific! Check it out at http://tinyurl.com/2cjf3h

    Dandydon
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    My father used to work for ford / lincoln mercury and he always was a big fan of the gran marquis.. I actually thought about buying one when I was in the market last september.. the car offers pretty much everything I really care about, and thats size, comfort, and an 8 cylinder engine.. but fe was not there and the truth is it was just "too" plain..so I went with the avalon xls. as far as the great price on the gran marquis, not surprised.. I think sales are suffering big time.. the local lincoln mercury dealership thats been here for at least 25 to 30 years, shut it's doors earlier this year.. I remember just before they did, they too were advertising marquis for 17K Plus. heck of a price if you like the car.

    Roland
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    I am 6'4" and 210#. 36 inseam and have a problem in a lot of cars with both head and leg room. I agree that the cars are built to a "norm" but it seems as if the norm is getting smaller.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    would put it into investment and see if the money would grew to 7K
    a little optimistic perhaps? that would be a compounded rate of 12%, nothing really doeable outside the stock market where you can easily lose that much as well. In reality, car buyers don't have that much cash laying around and are generally stretched to make a reasonable down payment - that down payment the same size with either car, So that the honest price difference is the higher loan principal plus the interest paid on that principal difference - something that almost evens out as well just in the extra money paid for gas.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    only pictures, but would rather suspect some poor FE ratings. There is no doubt that at 250hp+ these cars are better fitted with RWD, although there is a tradeoff in interior space efficiencies (see the GM/CV). The ultimate vehicle might actually be a RWD Avalon with the same V6 it has now (something Toyota is already doing in some Lexus models). But I don't expect to see it, then there would really be very little reason to pop for the extra $25-30k for the LS - especially over something like the Av Ltd.
  • dandydon2dandydon2 Member Posts: 77
    Captain - Any thoughts on what the next generation Avalon might be like and when it might be out? Seems to me that Toyota has to be careful how it grows (in price and features) or it will be too close to the ES 350.

    Dandydon
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't think the 08 Avalon will change much, Toyota does tend to bring out redesigned products in 4-5 year cycles, and the current design has been doing very well. Incidental changes probably using the 6 speed AT and likely standard VSC - both of which are questionable 'improvements' IMO. The ES is a smaller Camry based car and while they may get in the same neighborhood price-wise and therefore may be cross-shopped, the Avalon remains a completely different and larger car.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    If Honda can build a Honda Civic or Del Sol so that tall people can fit in them, then all auto makers are capable of making any car to fit large people. When I'm sitting a foot off the floor board and my head is rubbing the ceiling yet can raise the seat an additional 6 inches, that's lack of forethought. The designers just need to be reminded that there are big and tall people out there. I believe the prominence of SUVs and trucks is due in large part to the failure to design cars to fit large and tall drivers.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    I've had six in my last Grand Marquis - granted it was just in town, but it can be done. I prefer a bench seat because I think it makes the interior roomier - most consoles waste a lot of space. My current Grand Marquis is an LSE with a console, but I'm going back to a bench seat on my next one.

    The fact this discussion doesn't even list the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic tells me this is a discussion for the buy new every three years crowd who worries about the latest technical gimmicks they put in a car.

    I pay cash and keep my Grand Marquis 10-11 years. I might keep my 2002 longer than that since there is really nothing on a new car I see as an improvement I want, plus it is unclear how much longer they will build the Grand Marquis.

    The car is five years old with 63,000 miles, and still has the original tires, brake pads - all the power equipment works, as does the air conditioning. Why mess with success?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The fact this discussion doesn't even list the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic tells me this is a discussion for the buy new every three years crowd who worries about the latest technical gimmicks they put in a car.

    I don't think a good V6 is considered as a "latest technical gimmick". How about this is the crowd whom want a modern full size vehicle instead of a 1970 dinosaur old tank.

    The car is five years old with 63,000 miles, and still has the original tires,

    If I was you I would seriously thinking about getting a new set of tires.

    Why mess with success?

    Because the CV/GM/TC are pretty much 1970 technology with early 90s styling. The V8 they have are putting out 224 HP, which can be easily accomplished by today's high performance I4 and any regular V6 to increase FE. Any V8s that puts out less than 300HP now-a-day deserve to be described as "pathetic".

    I have no problem with the old school RWD full size sedan but good god, at least keep them up to date in order to be competitive. Oh well, this is Ford for you...
  • nimiminimimi Member Posts: 249
    BENCH SEATS: the two problems I have with them are (1) my wife is much shorter than I and, with her driving, I'd be chewing on my knees; and (2) "dual heat" wouldn't work without the compartmentalized space given by the buckets & console. This has made traveling together bearable as my wife always seems to have much less tolerance for heat than I do.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    tells me this is a discussion for the buy new every three years crowd who worries about the latest technical gimmicks they put in a car.
    I guess then, that MINOR things like, power, fuel economy, braking/handling, space efficiencies, and safety must be gimmicks?
  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    likely true, that GenX buyer will spend the extra money for a name and a perception, might overextend themselves putting a BMW/Lexus/MB in their driveways while those greybeards you are talking about wouldn't give a darn about what others think and want their car to be necessarily comfortable and in large part, a reliable appliance. It will take a while for Hyundai to lose its 'Korean' car image and sell well to younger buyers - in the meanwhile, I'm guessing that many Azera buyers are folks that legitimately could have afforded to spend more....

    Well, I can tell you that this X'er (33 YO) doesn't care so much about the perception of others. However, I do care about how I perceive myself, as well as having a car that is practical BUT fire breathing and fun to drive.

    I drive an '03 Maxima (the year before the redesign), and will probably replace it with an Altima, which is the "real" successor to my car in the Nissan lineup.

    You ARE correct that most people in my age group will never buy a Hyundai. Too many of our peers got burned by crappy Hyundai Excels. I knew a guy with one in college, and it was truly horrifying to ride in. It was even worse than my high school buddy's Fiat convertible. The cars shared something in common, in that most of the floorboard had rotted away so you could watch the road go by under your feet.

    Yes, I'm aware they've gotten better, but I'd rather buy a car from a company that has been making decent ones for longer than, oh, 4 years or so. Myself and my X'er-aged friends are more than happy to let the credit challenged and people who don't mind sitting around dealership service departments for hours take chances on Korean cars.

    I personally know someone who had the transmission on a Kia Sportage with 600 miles on the clock literally decouple itself from the engine and FALL OUT while going down the road. So really, you guys who love your Korean cars can keep 'em. I'll continue buying my bulletproof Nissan sedans, thanks.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I too could care less what others think...thus, I'm driving an Azera.

    As far as Excels go...well, most of us that are over 30 should know plenty. However, I did have a buddy that had one, that I ended up buying off of him...it had over 250K miles on it when it was totaled in a accident.

    Nissan...bulletproof??? :confuse: I've NEVER heard those two in the same sentence before. A close friend of mine bought the 2002 Altima 3.5 V-6 and within the 1st year, the tranny had to be replaced. Take a cruise around your local used car dealers and see how many Nissan sedans you'll find on those lots...PLENTY!!!

    Funny, you mention a Kia with a tranny that drops out, do you know how many brand spankin new Caddy's I see on the side of the road with paper tags on them no less? Oh...I won't even begin to talk about the other newer American sedans (within the last 3 years) that end up broken down on the side of the road as well.

    Wait a minute...American sedans hardly rank in the top 10 when it comes to dependability...that's right!!! What's really sad is that those that are over 35 might be too young to remember when Toyota, Honda and Datsun weren't exactly the most reliable on the market either. They just happened to be all that was available. All of them went through their woes and have managed to end up on the other side standing tall. Hyundai/Kia is gonna have to go through the same process...they are just on a learning curve at this point by having other's to model after.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    FYI before I am perceived as a guy that 'loves korean cars', my last several rides have included a Maxima, [3] Altimas (the last one a 3.5) and my current Avalon. That said, don't think there is any real basis anymore for your 'Korean junk' concerns - reliability statistics and/or initial quality studies would seem to indicate otherwise. The jury is still out certainly with this latest batch of Korean products, but IMO, they have improved enough that all buyers ought to give them a serious look.
  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    That said, don't think there is any real basis anymore for your 'Korean junk' concerns - reliability statistics and/or initial quality studies would seem to indicate otherwise. The jury is still out certainly with this latest batch of Korean products, but IMO, they have improved enough that all buyers ought to give them a serious look.

    The problem is that you don't really know what the long-term reliability is on these cars, because IMO they haven't been making "decent" cars long enough. I'm not stupid, my gut tells me that the '06 and up Sonatas and Azeras are good cars. However, you never really know until years down the road whether a car is any good or not. Considering how expensive cars are and how much I depend on mine, I just am not willing to take a chance on the Koreans yet. They're just too new at the "big league car game".

    In my case, I just buy what I've had good luck with, and nobody I personally know has ever bought a dud Nissan. They've all hit the 100,000 mile and up club with zero serious issues.
  • pernaperna Member Posts: 521
    Nissan...bulletproof??? I've NEVER heard those two in the same sentence before. A close friend of mine bought the 2002 Altima 3.5 V-6 and within the 1st year, the tranny had to be replaced. Take a cruise around your local used car dealers and see how many Nissan sedans you'll find on those lots...PLENTY!!!

    The transmissions Nissan uses in their cars are very good - as long as they're taken care of and not abused, that is. Their transmission vendors (Aisin and Jatco) supply quite a few car companies, actually, not just Nissan. In fact I think your Azera's transmission is made by Aisin, though I wouldn't swear to it.

    The fact that you see "plenty" of Nissans on your local used car lots is meaningless. It is probably because they are such popular cars, the used car dealers buy all they can at auto auctions. I don't seen "plenty" of Hyundais because as recently as 2002 they were disposable cars.

    Look at resale values of Azeras vs. Maximas or Sonatas vs. Altimas, and that will pretty much tell you all you need to know about the desirability of these cars to the general public. Even if you don't care about resale, you still have to wonder why the resale is so low compared to the cars a company like Nissan makes. My guess is it's the same reason I won't buy a Korean car, their reliability is just too much of an unknown at this point.

    And for the record, I have no hidden agenda against Korean makes. On the contrary, I hope they bury the competition in sales, it will only improve the overall quality and "gotta have" features of the cars and trucks that are available for purchase. Do you think that American brands would have made such huge strides in reliability over the last decade if it hasn't been for the Japanese competition? Yeah, right! :P
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    Here's the test for today.
    You won a prize at the local shopping mall.
    You can select any of the following manufacturers car free.
    BMW, MB, Hyundai, Lexus.
    Which one do you chose?
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