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But, the U.S. EPA classifies cars based on their combined passenger and trunk interior room listed as cubic feet.
Bob
Lucerne - 3 stars -'modest luxo sedan for little money'
Impala - 2 1/2 - 'at least you can get one with a V8'
300 - 4 - 'still the quintessential American sedan'
Charger - 4 - 'muscle gets brains and brawn'
500 - 3 - 'a good car looking for a great engine'
Azera - 4 - 'the right stuff at a righteous price'
Avalon - 4 - 'what a full size sedan should be'
Maxima - 3 - 'neat upgrades and even more appeal'
Amanti - 1 - sells on price, not style, like Kias used to'
Keep in mind this is a car magazine - have a sneaking suspicion that without the 15 mpg Hemi, the Chrysler products and the Impala would rate lower. If we limit our powertrains to 3-4 liter V6s in the interest of reasonable fuel economy, the Avalon easily takes the fuel economy crown, acceleration/performance the Avalon, the Azera, the Maxima. Value at time of purchase - likely the Azera. Cost over 5 years (Intellichoice) - cheapest by far - the Impala, followed by the Toyota and the Chryslers. The most expensive - by a significant margin - the Lucerne and Amanti. Includes fuel/insurance costs, depreciation, maintainence, and financing costs - but doesn't allow for the fact that many of these cars are available at substantial discounts and/or mfgr. bought down loan/lease rates.
While it is not in a car mags interest to say anything terribly negative about any car - the issue does make for some interesting reading.
A lot of the maintenance can be done yourself - an example is the fuel filter I did - attached to the rear frame; remove two clips, slip out of cradle, put in new one, attach clips, done.
Fuel filter was $6.74 at Walmart, and takes less than five minutes. Beats it being in the fuel tank, ala Toyota.
Large Sedan: Front/Side/Rear
Ford Five Hundred: Good/Good/Good :shades:
Toyota Avalon: Good/Good/Poor
Hyundai Azera: Good/Acceptable/Acceptable
Buick Lucerne: Good/Acceptable/Poor
Chevy Impala: Acceptable/Good/Poor
Chrysler 300: Good/Marginal/Acceptable :P
Dodge Charger: Good/Marginal/Acceptable :P
Nissan Maxima: Good/Marginal/Poor :lemon:
Kia Amanti: Good/Not Tested/Acceptable :confuse:
All results above were found WITH standard or optional side curtain airbags. Personally, I would never buy any vehicle without them.
Buick Lucerne(3.8L):19/28 regular: $5.43
Buick Lucerne(4.6L):17/25 regular: $6.25 :sick:
Chevy Impala(3.5L):21/31 regular: $5.21
Chevy Impala(3.9L):20/29 regular: $5.43
Chevy Impala(5.3L):18/27 premium: $6.23 :sick:
Chrysler 300(2.7):21/28 regular: $5.21
Dodge Charger(3.5):19/27 regular: $5.68
Dodge Charger(5.7L):17/25 regular: $6.25 :sick:
Ford 500 2WD(3.0L):21/29 regular: $5.21
Ford 500 AWD(3.0L):19/25 regular: $5.95
Hyundai Azera(3.8L):19/28 regular: $5.58
Kia Amanti(3.5L):17/25 regular: $6.25 :lemon:
Nissan Maxima(3.5L):21/28 premium: $5.42
Toyota Avalon(3.5L):22/31 regular: $5.00 :shades:
All cars will fill up tank from between $80-$85 with 18-19 gallon tanks.
Oh yeah - resale is really bad due to the fact the interior and exterior is basically unchanged since 98 - which is great for me because they are easy to find 2 years old at huge discounts.
Last one I bought, it was kind of surreal. The salesman was practically begging me to buy a Montego over a the 2002 CPO Grand Marquis I bought. I later found out my dealer has had great difficulities moving the Montego, and since I was younger and less experienced than most Grand Marquis buyers, he thought I might go for a lesser vehicle.
It baffles me why Ford is having such a hard time selling the 500/Montego - it has a lot more usable space than your Marquis, better economy, and about equal power. Thinking that the styling may be just too conservative and/or people do really want to have some HP to go with their MPGs.
I'm not doubting your gas mileage, and gasoline is a huge issue to consider. However, my wife drives a 2000 Toyota Corolla, and it must be the way she drives it, as she regularly gets only 28 mpg. I've been meaning to switch cars with her for a tankful, and see what I can get driving it. It just broke 100,000 miles, and I put new plugs in it, so we'll see if that helps.
On the Five Hundred, the Marquis is a extremely proven product, and I was very satisfied with my old 1994. I know a Grand Marquis is solid, quiet, smooth, and durable. While the Five Hundred may be that way new, a buyer will be the long term tester on seeing how long it lasts. I saw no reason to switch to something when I know the Grand Marquis has what I want.
Plus, it is front wheel drive, unibody, and has a much noisier, overworked engine. RWD is much easier to keep running once it gets high mileage on it - Ford has always been much better at rear wheel drive than front wheel drive.
All has to do with an extremely high tech engine and a computer that controls it. And then we move from high tech to proven tech which is where we find things like a Marquis. If there is one thing that 'Detroit' does know how to do it is building big ole lazy V8s; that, by definition, should last forever. And while you are replacing your front end at 100k, I'm probably doing the same with my CV joints.
To me, power is about as much a safety issue as a set of good brakes and a decent handling car. Having the power to avoid problems to allow you to 'aggressively' avoid a situation, or simply, to merge quickly into a fast moving line of traffic without everybody having to jam on their brakes that you just cut in front of. BUT, it is a balance - too much power in the hands of the vast majority of drivers out there can (and is) also dangerous.
My Avalon, IMO, borders on being overpowered - things like the Azera and Maxima a little less. The 'Detroit' entries with their 200 hp V6s - just not enough that I could consider them as 'safe' from a power available point of view. And barnstormer is right in that the vast majority of folks that are out buying big 4 door sedans would very rarely need or use that extra HP and are more likely concerned with their gas bills!
CR, incidentally did a story not too long ago, about the inaccuracies of the EPA ratings, which are apparently going to change. A number of cars were tested, comparing actual mileages using the new testing procedures vs. current - and several cars were noted to do much worse than the window sticker. The top of the list of those 'offenders', the hybrids, and right there near the top - the 300C. Apparently that 17/25 is a pipedream! If I remember correctly, the 300C couldn't get past 15mpg OVERALL (4 mpg lower than the already low ratings). Since both the 300 and Impala have a system that disables a few cylinders of the engine under low load conditions and similar engine sizes and types, would imagine that the GM V8 is probably off substantially as well - although I didn't see anything specific to those cars.
A full size sedan drag race is an interesting concept, and also likely the last thing you'd ever really see. That would be for the kids in their Mustangs and rice rockets.
That said, 20 mpg is not all that bad considering what that car can do - but I'll take my 27 and smile from 50 feet behind you.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
While there is definitely still a market for dropping big ole V8s in cars, most consumers I would contend value their pocketbooks a little more than that. which is why 'US' brands sales will continue to suffer, CR 'black circles' notwithstanding. Until the Ford and Chevys of the world can figure out how to build 4s and V6s that offer both power and economy (something they never have been able to do) - and sell things for a profit those models will remain a problem. V8s and trucks about the only thing that the 'Detroit 3' continue to do reasonably well.
And lest you think, this is some sort of 'Detroit' bashing - my previous several rides included a pair of Crowne Vics, a Caprice, an Aerostar, and [3] Suburbans - all of which were relatively troublefree (except for the Aerostar) well past 100k miles each, and all of which returned 15-17 mpg or so. Gas has gotten expensive, however, for me to be able to justify the bank note I was going to have to sign for a 40 gallon Suburban fill-up.
And the Avalon, first 'fun' car I have had in years, it will outrun 95% of what else is on the road, AND is likely using less fuel than 80- 90% of them as well. A 'premium' combination for a car that does sell at a premium price - at least relative to those others cars in this particular group.
Bob
Also a Chrysler 300 Limited with options: Customer Preferred Package $2,995, Sound Group $945, Sunroof $950, Destination $675, Original MSRP $33,370. Now after employee pricing selling for $30,171! I found this on Chrysler website in Manhattan Chrysler Jeep Dodge inventory in NY, NY.
A Charger with a HEMI and 300 with the 3.5L under $30K! SWEET! :surprise:
All lower trims are selling for much less. I think, since they are both really the same car, the best value would be the Dodge Charger SE that has the 3.5L with 250 Hp standard running around $21K after employee pricing! :shades:
Is it possible to continue haggling after employee pricing?
Those employee pricings are nothing to write home about. If I were you I'll keep haggling.
However, you can often find a car (or two) that the dealer IS willing to sell for less than that . . but you have to be willing to accept what THEY want to sell. Which is rarely what I ever want. But if you're willing to compromise a bit for the absolute best deal . . .
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I own an 05 Touring, it is one of the few cars I've ever owned that I actually look forward to driving every morning. Long trips are also something that I look forward to, cruising range at 75 about 500 miles while returning 30+ mpg - and driving the tank empty is something that is no problem at all if my bladder holds up! I often wondered what it would be like to live in Montana or something, at 100 mph+ the Avalon isn't even breathing hard (3300 rpm), the car is solid at that kind of speed.
Would think your main concern should be driver seat comfort, generally what intially feels soft and cushy is not what you want to do 600 miles in, and be careful of the heated/cooled seats in some of the Avalons (and others) - less padding. HID headlights are worth every dime they get for them - highly recommended. It would seem difficult for you to evaluate long trip comfort based on things like short test drives?
The second choice would be a Lucerne CXS a year old. $25K(so what - let someone else eat the initial depreciation!) and you have a car that rides like a Cadillac or Mercedes. It's 100% different and better than the base model and should be on anyone's list, since it has the same magnetic ride suspension found on the Cadillacs and also has a Northstar engine.
Super-comfortable to drive. Exactly like a mid 90's S420, which is pretty good, considering. Not like a new S class or Lexus, but it's also not $45K+, either. Way better driving experience than the Avalon. Also, the 4-speed transmission in it is a perfect match with the V8. LArger engines don't need more gears and the transmission on the Lucerne is half the price to fix as the one in the Avalon. Toyota is quickly becoming Mercedes expensive to fix while Gm is the same as always - $1200-$1600 to rebuild it. Toyota? $3000. Yes - three thousand dollars! That takes it off of my top five list right there, as that's easily a thousand more than the competition from GM, Ford, Chyrsler, and the others.
Oh - test-drive one with the bench seat. It makes the car feel much more open and easier to drive. The center console is better as well.
The Five Hundred, of course, a rebadged S80(at a 10-15k discount) which given the Swedish influence, an exercise in space efficiency and, of course safety. For whatever reason, however, Ford/Volvo have not found it necessary to install competitive engines in either. Had the 500 been introduced with a solid 250hp+ V6, one that doesn't scream in protest anytime revs hit 5 grand or so - like what is in the Avalon, or the Azera, or the Maxima - the Five Hundred would rightfully be a serious competitor in the full size sedan market.
GM? Can't think of anything remarkable (car wise) they have done since coming up with the idea of dropping a small block V8 in the '55 Chevy Bel Air. Cadillac, at least, is trying...
Can't argue with a used one. If you want a comfortable driving car that's the category. Even my le Sabres have been like sitting on your couch after hours behind the wheel. The Lucerne brings the tautness up a notch with 3 choices. I drove the 3800 with softer suspension. Nicely firm like a le Sabre with touring suspension was when I bought my 03.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
LeSabres were very nice cars, all said. And at 27K for the Limited, it was a steal. Bigger, more power, more features than a Camry or Accord V6, and less pricey than the nearly identical Avalon. Now, the Avalon has moved up a notch, but I think the CXS still beats it.
GMs only problems seem to be image, handling, and interior/features. The Lucerne takes care of the image - in all black, it looks a LOT like the Infinity - it's passable. Power and handling with the electronic suspension is superb - zero body-roll and no torque-steer at all. Mercedes and BMW are pros at figuring this out, and GM appears to be learning the trick as well.
That leaves the interior and features. GM isn't on-par with the competition here, but it's tons cheaper. And it's definately equal to or better than an Accord or Crown Vic.
Test drive the CXS. So not a "Buick". My first reaction was exactly the same as I had when I test drove a Grand National years and years ago. Just unable to wrap my head around a car that was nothing at all like the other Buicks. Well, that, and a big grin on my face as I whomped on the gas.
The Northstar? Certainly GMs best effort along with the 500hp Vette engine which only goes to show how behind GM is! 5 best engines on the planet? - heck the engines in the Avalon, Maxima, and Azera, just from this group, put out better HP per unit volume, are more economical, and much more technologically advanced. And we haven't even started to consider, engines from the Germans, Honda, the Lexus and Infiniti V8s etc., or, for that matter, a whole slew of competent 4 bangers from primarily the Japanese and Europeans. If you honestly consider engines on the basis of power efficiency (HP/liter), real FE, and durability - you will have a hard time putting any GM engine even in the top 25! And the same holds true, unfortunately, for Chrysler and Ford.
And PS - there is nothing that happens with NASCAR that is even slightly related to real cars...