Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

allmet33 · April 2007

You have to remember...it is on par with the CURRENT 4 bangers for Honda & Nissan.

The 2.7 V-6 that Hyundai had in the Sonata was surprisingly a good powerplant for the car it was in.

All of this goes back to what I was saying about Nissan changing the game by putting a 240 hp V-6 in the Altima. Honda followed up with the 240 hp Accord. According to some, Toyota had already been in the works with the 268 hp Camry, but then Hyundai figured if they were gonna keep up, the Sonata must be upgraded, thus...the 240 hp Sonata.

The FE in the 3.3 is better than what the 2.7 offered, however...Hyundai hasn't been touted as the FE company. However, I'm sure that is something else that will improve over time with them. Heck...Nissan's FE numbers aren't that far off from Hyundai when you compare the two.

Come on...comparing the old 2.7 to the newer 3.3's, 3.5's and 3.8 is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

barnstormer64 · April 2007

is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

But a good knife-fighter will win almost all the time against a reasonably good (and certainly against a mediocore) gun-fighter. That's in close-quarters combat, with the knife already out, but not the gun.

dborth · April 2007

"But a good knife-fighter will win almost all the time against a reasonably good (and certainly against a mediocore) gun-fighter. That's in close-quarters combat, with the knife already out, but not the gun."

Thanks, I think, for your valuable contribution to the Large Sedan Comparison thread.

bhmr59 · April 2007

No argument, Captain. The 2006+ Sonata 4 cyl is rated only 8 HP less than the "old" 2.7L V-6.

My 2.7L has plenty of "go", maybe torque has something to do with it. My business just bought a 2nd Sonata (for my brother). He said the '07 4 cyl had plenty enough power but we opted for the SE trim due to the additional features included in the car in addition to the 6 cyl, which as you said should be a bit smoother.

I have seldom given the 2.7 more than half throttle. These newer engines, from whatever make, must really scream. I haven't experienced any roughness in the 2.7, it's very smooth and quiet. Also, I haven't driven our new Sonata to compare to the one I drive. I probably should...but then again maybe I shouldn't because we can't afford the extra car payments that two new car would require. (I've been adding a little extra to my car payment and my 60 month note is scheduled to be paid off in a tad under 50 months if I can continue adding that little extra.)

It may take approx 2 seconds more to go 0-60 in the '05 compared to the '07, but that's a non-issue for me.

The current Sonata is considered a "large car" by EPA, isn't it.

allmet33 · April 2007

Yeah...if you say so.

captain2 · April 2007

Come on...comparing the old 2.7 to the newer 3.3's, 3.5's and 3.8 is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
of course it is, and the reason why I contenf that the Sonata didn't really become 'competitive' until that 3.3 started appearing in the car.

allmet33 · April 2007

Ahhhhhhh...at that point, it wasn't about being competitive from a performance standpoint. Hyundai was worried more about reliability and the 2.7 was and still his a highly reliable engine.

To be honest, the Sonata could run with the Camry, simply having the Shiftronic transmission made a world of difference.

captain2 · April 2007

to be 'competitive' there is more to life than simply 'matching' a 200hp Camry. In 2003, the Altima and the Accord were both at 240hp with fine economical engines. It is really Toyota that has historically lagged in this dept - at least until the recent V6. Besides which, and this is IMO, the 200 hp 3.0 Camry engine a more refined and quieter engine than that 2.7 ever thought of being.

allmet33 · April 2007

Toyota engines, while lacking power (compared to it's Honda & Nissan counterparts), they've always had great engines.

Toyota engines have pretty much always been more refinded that the competition. For the longest time Toyota rode the coat tails of it's reliability and didn't worry about performance numbers...until recently.

With Hyundai proving that they could produce a reliable engine (the 2.7), it prompted them to step their performance game up as well. Not saying that today's Hyundai engines are as refined as what Toyota or Honda produce (FE speaks for that), but it's proof that Hyundai is on the way.

joe97 · April 2007

the 200 hp 3.0 Camry engine a more refined and quieter engine than that 2.7 ever thought of being.

I don't have the figures in front of me, and that seems to be a reasonable statement. The current generation's, however, 3.5L and 3.3L has reversed its fortunes, with the Lambda (Hyundai) seems to be the quieter of the two.

captain2 · April 2007

These newer engines, from whatever make, must really scream.

cobrazera · April 2007

Yeah, they really scream, but with all that power going to the front tires, it,s just not the best of situations. My Azera does have a bit of torque steer and will "smoke 'em "
when all I wanted to do was beat the guy in the next lane across the street.

More power will have to be put through the rear or all tires, though many of the AWD alternatives began as front wheel drive cars, so still carry over 60% of their weight on the front end. That compromises handling.

I think that's one reason why the Genesis is RWD, not the best for packaging or weight, but necessary for the HP that's there.

captain2 · April 2007

while there are undeniably problems putting this kind of HP thru the front wheels (torque steer being the most apparent) AWD in and of itself does not necessarily solve the problem. Many of these AWD cars (the 500, the S80) etc. etc. will as a normal condition proportion up to 95% of the power to the front wheels anyway and only push a portion of the power rearward in response to the traction control system - but most importantly weight bias remain just like their FWD versions 60%+ front, which is where the understeer etc. comes from - as you say. Acura has the right idea (SH-AWD) in being able to proportion power to individual rear wheels to minimize the handling issue and also limits power (and therefore, torque) by electronic throttle control in the TL-S. I believe the CVT Maxima has improved its 'legendary' TS thru tranny programming as has the Avalon, where is it almost non-existent. The 300, OTH particularily with the V6, is a nicely balanced car, one of the few in this group that 'feels good' being big.
So, is RWD preferable given the power we have - certainly - would it require a mass driver retraining program - possibly - as we all adjust to the sacrifices (the way it used to be) of poorer behavior (traction related) on bad roads and/or we all relearn about the 'science' of sandbags in the trunk. Many of our younger drivers would have a great deal of difficulty getting a RWD vehicle around on snow covered roads, having never driven much other than FWDs.

joe131 · April 2007

Captain2's remarks about Maxima is that it is NOT much of a sports sedan any more, and has not been close to one for several years.
I agree. My thinking is the 1994 SE model was the last Maxima sports sedan.

joe131 · April 2007

Well, Genesis is not listed as one which this forum is about. No luxury nameplate. Haha.
It will no doubt smoke ALL the cars in this forum in luxury and performance even though it lacks a snooty badge.
Yeah, its not entry level either, but some of the others here are not either.
The Genesis will have NO group in these forums where it can get any real competition unless some new title is dreamed up.
Any ideas? What should we call the forum where we can see the Genesis in a fair fight?

joe131 · April 2007

Sonata vs. BMW 5 ?
No, not silly at all.
The ad is NOT intended to draw BMW shoppers into the Hyundai showroom.

The ad is aimed at HYUNDAI shoppers, not BMW shoppers!

It is to impress low market shoppers by comparing the Sonata to a very highly regarded, near supercar, BMW, a performance champ. That Sonata can be faster in a straight line acceleration makes Sonata owners and shoppers feel good, that's all.

BMW lovers, no need to get your feathers ruffled. Relax, you are NOT being threatened, (at least not by Sonata).
Genesis MAY give you reason to worry a though, like Lexus did to Mercedes in 1989.
Remember that anyone?

joe131 · April 2007

Yeah, there have been articles.
And 17 inch wheels were found to be optimal for overall performance. Not 16 or 18 or 20, but exactly 17 inches.

joe131 · April 2007

Easy to believe your claim of increased (straight ahead) stability on the highway. For sure!

Ever play with a lightweight gyroscope?
And then play with one which is heavier and bigger diameter?

HUGE difference!

cobrazera · April 2007

While RWD is obviously at somewhat of a disadvantage in low speed traction situations, ( snow ) it is not unmanageable with the proper tires, weight distribution, and traction control.

I had owned Cadillac Cateras ( go ahead, snicker, but they are German and RWD )for a total of four years and they worked quite well through Michigan winters with their 50-50 weight distribution, all season tires and traction control. While the Cateras only had 200HP, they shared the same problem as the 300/Magnum - too much weight.

captain2 · April 2007

go ahead, snicker, but they are German
Why would I snicker, GM owes a lot to some of that engineering prowess found at Adam Opel AG, dating all the way back to the Mantas of the 70s and continuing these days in things like the Solstice and the Aura.

captain2 · April 2007

you want to compare a car that doesn't even exist yet? The Genesis sounds like in price and performance will be something closer to the 300C (and the new Impala) which are its logical competition, although I suspect the interiors may be a little snug for this category. When and if the car makes it to market, then, we can talk all about 'obscene' fuel consumption, which has never been a Hyundai strong point anyway.

floridabob1 · April 2007

RE: 1882
I agree completely!
People are posting how great the Genesis is when there is not even a Genesis manufactured by Hyundai.
The model is still a concept car, and from what I have been told from the dealership level, final decisions have not been made\ by corporate.

pat · April 2007

Actually, there are several discussions talking about the Genesis, but it doesn't appear in the categories because it is a future vehicle. The keyword search will find them, however.

If people want to talk about it here they can, if they don't, they surely don't have to.

dborth · April 2007

floridabob...My Linc./Merc./Hyundai delership hasn't even HEARD of Genesis.

captain2 · April 2007

from what I have been told from the dealership level, final decisions have not been made\ by corporate.
as I have said before, it would seem that Hyundai would have 2 choices: 1) to put a 'H' on it and compete with the 300s/Impalas which is where I would anticipate the auto market would accept it or 2) try to position it as a new 'luxry brand'. create a new dealership network that caters to the constomer (something that Hyundai dealers are not known for), raise the price sufficiently so that hte luxury market understands it and hope that they never find out who it is that actually makes it. This worked fine for Toyota and Nissan back in the late 80s with one important difference 'actually who makes it' didn't bother anybody. Remember the Mazda Millenia - it was also scheduled to be a brand of its own following the Lexus/Infiniti lead. didn't happen and was too expensive to be sold as a 'Mazda'. Discontinued a few years later but a damn good car nonetheless.
Wish Hyundai luck with it, although IMO I don't think the solution is in the V8s, why not just turn the V6 90d in the Azera? Anybody seen the price of gas lately? A RWD Azera - that doesn't get too heavy and doesn't lose too much interior space - now that would be something to talk about. Toyota could, of course, do the same in the Avalon, because they already are, at the expense of some differentiation between that car and some Lexus models. Be amazed if either of the two really do something like this.

captain2 · April 2007

PS and almost forgot to mention Nissan's efforts at this, the G35 perhaps the best 'sports sedan' for the money (35K or so)and the larger Ms which do get into German turf performance wise. Can this Genesis be another M45 - maybe - but not if it is called a Hyundai and it would be a remarkable achievement for the Korean mfgr. , cars like that having a lot more engineering acumen behind them than has demonstrated to date (at least out of Seoul).

joe97 · April 2007

Depending how informed the dealer is. My local dealer has even had an ad in the local paper (BH inquiries), which has, to my knowledge, increased showroom traffic.

The BH is going into production this year (for the home market) and next year for the US market. It will be badged as a Hyundai.

And, if it achieves the slightest success as the 300 has had, I believe Hyundai would be happy, at least the first go-around.

dborth · April 2007

Sales for March '07: (Source-AOL Autos)
Impala 28,505 Charger 12,707 300 11,376
These are the targets for Genesis if it is launched.
Hard to believe Impala outsold Hyundai's top 2 sellers combined, Sonata 10,584 Elantra 10,343

tjc78 · April 2007

"Hard to believe Impala outsold Hyundai's top 2 sellers combined"

Just think rental car lots... that is where many Impala's show up!

alexstore · April 2007

well, you failed to mention as this is the same spot( rental fleet) Hyundai is going for.

tjc78 · April 2007

I rent quite frequently and there are many more Impalas than Sonatas. I usually rent with National and haven't seen a Hyundai at any of their locations. Also, the Impala is a common company car as well.

cobrazera · April 2007

You're right about the G35, which specs out quite similarly to the upcoming Genesis, at least on paper. ( Does the 99 cu. ft. interior make the G35 a large sedan? )

G35: RWD, 305HP, 3600lbs, paddle shifter, 18" summer perf tires on the Sport, etc. A 530 Beemer with 255HP is about $15K more.

jaymagic · April 2007

My understanding is that the Genesis will have even more interior space than the Azera, which is considerably larger inside than the G35. I would expect it to more closely match up with the M35/M45. The G35 is NOT a large sedan by any means.

rockylee · April 2007

It's okay if the Genesis, is used here as I will throw out another brand that is a Luxury brand but isn't recognized by some on edmunds. How bout the Buick Lucerne and LaCrosse Super ?????

These two cars easily are bests in the main stream segment. Buick, has uped the ante for Luxury and Performance with the "Super" Trim :shades: I ask again is this really fair ? Comparing a regular car like a Dodge Charger to a Buick Lucerne, isn't really fair for the Dodge is it ? Maybe the LaCrosse, is a better comparo ? However even the LaCrosse, is a much better car than the Charger. The Charger, like ALL Chrysler products have a very "Spartan" interior. :surprise:

I'm just saying comparing one car to the oher is hard. What is mainstream and what is luxury ? I myself and many other would take the Buick brand out of this talk as it is unfair for reguler cars to be compared to a premium brand like buick. As the future goes on it's just going to get worse as buick, goes to RWD and slightly upmarket to fill in where Cadillac was.

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

I like the Genesis, like I said in the Genesis, forum but have had a change of heart on buying South Korean, products. If you wanna ask me why you can shoot me a e-mail so we don't go way off-topic. I however do think it will still be a great car.

Rocky

joe97 · April 2007

What you failed to mention is present. Presently, Hyundai has significantly cut back on its fleet units on the Sonata - significant meaning it has terminated its (almost a year) fleet initiative, and purpose - to improve the recognition of the Sonata and the brand.

On the other hand, the Impala has been a fleet car for many years now - by the way, it took home the fleet car of the year award.

As long as the BH can have the slightest success of the 300; or as volume goes - maybe 10% of Impala sales, the BH will be deemed as a success by early target - this will not be hard to achieve.

joe97 · April 2007

You're right about the G35, which specs out quite similarly to the upcoming Genesis, at least on paper. ( Does the 99 cu. ft. interior make the G35 a large sedan? )

G35: RWD, 305HP, 3600lbs, paddle shifter, 18" summer perf tires on the Sport, etc. A 530 Beemer with 255HP is about $15K more.

Eh...no, not even close. The G35 is midsize, not even close to the volume of the upcoming BH, which it may rival cars such as 7er in volume.

It goes something like this, in order of :

G35 - Midsize
Sonata - Large
Azera - Large
BH - Large

What's with the G35 5er comparison here?

batista · April 2007

Comparing a regular car like a Dodge Charger to a Buick Lucerne, isn't really fair for the Dodge is it ? Maybe the LaCrosse, is a better comparo ? However even the LaCrosse, is a much better car than the Charger. The Charger, like ALL Chrysler products have a very "Spartan" interior.

What? A Buick Lacrosse/Lucerne is ancient compared to a Dodge Charger. A 4 speed automatic with a pushrod V6 engine as a base engine. The Buick platforms are 20 years old compared to the new LX cars.
You like FWD torque steer low tech cars, I guess.
The Hemi kills the Northstar engine in performance and has very similar fuel economy.
So what if the interior isn't as plush as the Buick. I guess you are from the 50's and like the mouse fur interiors.

batista · April 2007

Also, the Buick has a horrible soft suspension (struts)versus the double-wishbone LX cars which are way better for handling. Buick is a much cheaper car to build.

gamleged · April 2007

"I guess you are from the 50's and like the mouse fur interiors."

I'd never heard that term before, but it instantly brought back memories from the late '40s- early '50s of the close-cropped grey, fuzzy liners in the cars my parents and relatives owned!... :surprise:

rockylee · April 2007

Ummm a Hemi killing a Northstar, I think not !!!! It's pretty damn sad when a Lucerne will keep up if not out run a Dodge Hemi, which speaking of is ancient. The damn thing gets what 9 mpg. city and 16 hwy ? Chrysler's engine line-up is a absolute joke. The 3.5, yeah that's real powerful :confuse: The Lucerne's suspension blows the LX platform away because of Magneride, something you can't get on your Whimpi V8 Charger. :P The LaCrosse Super has been recalibrated as well. What's this mouse fur interior you speak of ? :confuse: The interior quality of these Buick's blows away anything in Chrysler's history. Night and day in comparison. Even the beloved 300C has a spartan interior and that is Chrysler's flagship sedan. The Lacrosse Super runs the same 0-60 times as the Charger (5.7) and it suffers a 45 hp defecit.

Tell me which one is a joke, now ? Give me the LaCrosse/Lucerne Super, as they are indeed "Super" compared top anything Ford or Chrysler makes right now. Those are just plain facts.

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

Also, the Buick has a horrible soft suspension (struts)versus the double-wishbone LX cars which are way better for handling. Buick is a much cheaper car to build.

You better go do some research and get back to me. There will be nothing soft about either one of these sedans. They upgraded all the weakness's. The LaCrosse, sure had a soft suspension as that what normal customer's of Buick's expect. The hardware on the LaCrosse has been upgraded torwards handling and performance. This is just the tip of the iceberg of things to come from buick.

The Lucerne, gets a recalibrated tuned version of Delphi Magneride suspension which will make the car handle as well a lot of RWD cars. Magneride is used on Cadillac's, Corvette's, the Lucerne CSX, Holden Commodore HSV, a Ferrari, and I think a Audi. It's proven. The only one better is the ultra expensive Bose.

The LX, is a decent platform. No doubt. I'd rather own a car that handles as well will handle better in 2011 once it goes RWD, and I'd rather drive in Bank Vault quiet comfort, than listen to the squeaks and rattles that come standard on every Chrysler product. :P

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

Well those mouse fur interiors of old are better made than the plasticky chrysler cars made today. Good god the Mercedes C-Class that's about to come out shows signs of cost cutting on the interior. I laughed and said to some of my friends that the G8, has a much better looking interior than the new Mercedes C-Class.

Rocky

captain2 · April 2007

in order of finish at these 'imaginery' 0-60 drags we stage

1) Chrysler 300c/Charger R/T
2) Impala SS
3) Avalon
4) Maxima
5) Azera
6) Lucerne Northstar
and after that we get into some really underpowered vehicles, that don't belong at the races. FE OTH should look like this:
1) Avalon
2) Maxima
3) Azera
4) Lucerne Northstar
5) Impala SS
6) 300C/Charger
The Avalon, BTW, just received Edmund's lowest cost to own award of all vehicles in this class - despite being one of the most expensive to drive off the lot - oh my oh my how could this be?

batista · April 2007

a Lucerne will keep up if not out run a Dodge Hemi, which speaking of is ancient

Who are you kidding? The Lucerne 4.6L was tested by Car and Driver to reach 60mph in 6.9 seconds. It's basically a slug for a V8. The "Hemi" name is ancient but the engine is relatively new (2003) even though it is a pushrod design.

The damn thing gets what 9 mpg. city and 16 hwy ? Chrysler's engine line-up is a absolute joke. The 3.5, yeah that's real powerful

Even with the newer and stricter fuel economy ratings it achieved 15mpg city and 23mpg highway. Check it
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23610-
Which is identical to the slow poke Buick Lucerne
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23282-

The 3.5, yeah that's real powerful The Lucerne's suspension blows the LX platform away because of Magneride, something you can't get on your Whimpi V8 Charger. The LaCrosse Super has been recalibrated as well. What's this mouse fur interior you speak of ?

I would say 250HP is quite good out of 3.5L. Not the best but way better than a 3.8L that can't even achieve 200HP.
What wimpy about 350HP and 390 ft/lbs?
Where is this super sport? It's not even out yet and Dodge is going to come out with a Challenger 6.4L engine. Not to mention the 6.1L that puts out 425HP.

What's this mouse fur interior you speak of ?

The interior ceiling of the car!

The Lacrosse Super runs the same 0-60 times as the Charger (5.7) and it suffers a 45 hp defecit. Tell me which one is a joke, now ?

So what if it reaches 60 in 5.7 seconds when its nearly impossible to steer? FWD V8's are a joke.
When is GM going to understand this?
I don't think many people are going to understand your facts!

batista · April 2007

Not sure what FE OTH is?
Yeah, captain I know the Avalon is the most fuel efficient
at 20 and 28 Hwy.

What is up with Rockylee?
Hardcore GM guy to the point where he can't understand anything?

rockylee · April 2007

Who are you kidding? The Lucerne 4.6L was tested by Car and Driver to reach 60mph in 6.9 seconds. It's basically a slug for a V8. The "Hemi" name is ancient but the engine is relatively new (2003) even though it is a pushrod design.

I meant LaCrosse "Super" with the 5.3 LS-4 300 hp V8

The Lucerne "Super" gets the 292 hp version of the Northstar which should knock off a couple of tenths of the 0-60 times.

Even with the newer and stricter fuel economy ratings it achieved 15mpg city and 23mpg highway. Check it
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23610- - - -
Which is identical to the slow poke Buick Lucerne
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23282- - - -

I was talking about real world numbers not some fictious number made up by the EPA, as I know of no Chrysler product that meets let alone beats it's EPA numbers. I have friends that own the Hemi Charger, Hemi 300C, and they aren't happy about their fuel economy numbers. Dodge Trucks it only get's worse. The 9 mpg city and 12 hwy is accurate for one of my co-workers.

I would say 250HP is quite good out of 3.5L. Not the best but way better than a 3.8L that can't even achieve 200HP.

The 3800 is a great engine. Was voted one of the best engines of the 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_3800_engine

I'd rather have the proven 3800 than the unproven 3.5. If we did race you'd have tow a roller underneath to catch your typical chrysler transmission. :P

What wimpy about 350HP and 390 ft/lbs?
Where is this super sport? It's not even out yet and Dodge is going to come out with a Challenger 6.4L engine. Not to mention the 6.1L that puts out 425HP.

This is a joke, right ? Comparing Chrysler to GM, is indeed a joke. GM, outpowers Chrysler on about every level. The G8 makes quick work of the Hemi. The Vette Makes quick work of the Viper, The CTS-V makes quick work of the SRT-8 Charger, 300C. Oh okay you guys win two with the SRT-8 Cherokee and SRT-10 Dodge Ram, well for maybe a year or two longer. When your not winning 0-60 times you still have to live with a car or truck that is cheaply put togeather not because of the workers but because of the engineering. That's something I'd prefer not have to deal with. :P

The interior ceiling of the car!

http://www.buick.com/lucerne/gallery_360view_int.jsp

I see no mouse fur unless I'm blinde ? :shades:

So what if it reaches 60 in 5.7 seconds when its nearly impossible to steer? FWD V8's are a joke.

Well FWD, does have it's advantages at it is lighter, offers more interior room, and you can drive the vehicle year around if you get snow. Magneride, helps eliminate some flaws of FWD.

When is GM going to understand this?

Problems are being addressed. It's called ZETA. Zeta, will spring a RWD Impala, in 2009 buh bye Charger, 300C.

It will also give to us this fall the Pontiac G8, 2011 Lucerne/DTS both which will be RWD, will give us a RWD Buick Velite Sedan, and perhaps a Convertible. Oh yeah it also gives you a Challenger [non-permissible content removed] kicking Chevy Camaro, which should run laps around that beast called
Challenger.-grin

:P

I don't think many people are going to understand your facts!

Well last time I checked GM was still #1 here in North America and in the world. So I think the majority does agree with my thinking :P

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

What is up with Rockylee?
Hardcore GM guy to the point where he can't understand anything?

I'm sorry but the Honyota Kool-Aid is a bit to spiked for me.

I needed a different brand.

Rocky

batista · April 2007

I was talking about real world numbers not some fictious number made up by the EPA, as I know of no Chrysler product that meets let alone beats it's EPA numbers. I have friends that own the Hemi Charger, Hemi 300C, and they aren't happy about their fuel economy numbers. Dodge Trucks it only get's worse. The 9 mpg city and 12 hwy is accurate for one of my co-workers.

EPA recently revised methods for estimating vehicle fuel economy to better represent current driving styles and conditions. The new methodswhich apply to model year 2008 and later vehiclesinclude the city and highway tests used for previous models along with additional tests to represent:

Faster Speeds and Acceleration
Air Conditioner Use
Colder Outside Temperatures
MPG estimates will also be adjusted downward to account for factors that are difficult to replicate in a laboratory, such as wind and road surface resistance.

The 3800 is a great engine. Was voted one of the best engines of the 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_3800_engine

I'd rather have the proven 3800 than the unproven 3.5. If we did race you'd have tow a roller underneath to catch your typical chrysler transmission.

The 3800 is a horrible engine. I had it in my 01 Impala and its a leaker. The intake manifold leaks coolant after a few years.
Not to mention it sounds horrible when driven hard. Very unrefined engine. I bought a GM car with the 3.8L because I read about it being this so called "great" engine by people like you and the Ward's top engines of the century.

Also, the GM 4 speed 4T65E is unreliable. Had to have it fixed at 40K miles. First the pressure control solenoid went south then the planetary gear was broken.
Cost was $3000 at the GM dealership and the PCS fix was $600. So much for that theory.
The DC 5 speed is a MB design so it should be better than your typical chrysler 4 speed slushbox.

GM is in much trouble as Chrysler. It relies on fleet sales to get that #1 position. It's just a matter of time before it goes bankrupt.

batista · April 2007

One more thing:

I am not the only one who has had premature transmission failures.
The Lemon Aid book mentions that 2000-2003 GM 4T65 which are used in Impalas, Centurys, Regals, LeSabres, Park Avenue and Bonnevilles suffer from premature transmission failures.

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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