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Comments
The pushrod, however, is an antiquated 'technology' that would seem to only have applications in things like oversized V8s and is out of place in cars in this group. Not to worry, though, bet they will all finally be gone (except the V8s) within the next few years. Kind of depends on GMs ability to finance new engine production...
The extra torque works well to move a full-sized car because it's heavier. Put the 3800 that you know so little about into a light car and it moves because of the torque.
Do you have any data to support your statement
"oversized V8s and is out of place in cars of this group."? That sounds like an opinion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
of course an opinion, in deference to gas prices, weight imbalances, and TS issues in FWD cars!
and yes the only thing I KNOW about that old 3.8 is that it won't hold a gear on even a gentle incline with the cruise set on 70 - so much for all that 'usable' torque you like to talk about. The Lucerne, in ths case, simply weighs too much for 200 hp and the available torque it does have.
Rocky
Strange that my cars all can handle inclines on Interstates between here and Nashville and rarely, I mean rarely, downshift into third. There are a couple between Cincinnati and Louisville that are steeper than typical.
I think you don't know what you're talking about and are just making up stuff to have something negative about the 3800. No problem. Now I've read discussions about the weak sister OHC motors with low torque high horsepower shifting up and down in the cars that require 6- and more speed transmissions for driveability. Indeed the X3 I rode to the Reds games in beside being rough-riding kept shifting up and down and it was only a 5-speed IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
assume that it then may keep up with an Avalon, Azera, or Maxima all at a penalty of a few mpgs? If I want a V8, then I sure as heck don't want FWD! Maybe the best thing to do is to wait for GM to replace the Lucerne with a V8 RWD model in 09/10 - just don't know if that will be before or after gas hits $5/gallon.
this I'd agree with - because 10 or 15 years ago these cars didn't weigh near 4000 lbs. did they?
Rocky
So yeah the 3.6 would be a better choice.
The Lucerne should have this line-up.
CX- 3800 V6 197-205 hp.
CXL- 3.6 "High Feature" V6 with 255 hp.
CXS- 4.6 Northstar with 292hp
Super- 320hp Northstar V8
-Rocky
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Kill the 3.8
Standard on all models 3.6
CXS or Super 320 HP Northstar option. Why do you need two V8's only 20 or so HP apart?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Your jaw will drop - it's just nothing like a typical Buick.(basically it's a Buick DTS with the sport package - just for a LOT less than the Cadillac DTS)
I have it on my top 5 list for cars to get this fall. And this despite the fact that I swore I'd never own a car with an automatic again.
I drove the 275 HP CXS and if your comparing it to the 3.8 yes there is a huge difference. Not quite jaw dropping, but much different then say a few year old Park Av.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
the current 275 Northstar is actually slower than most of the cars in this group - including the Avalon, Azera, Maxima, 300C, Impala SS, but it is a whole lot smoother/quieter and more powerful than the 3.8, of course. 292 hp, if this becomes a choice, would figure to keep up - 320 hp might outrun them - wonder what they are going to do about the torque steer and FE. - doesn't figure to be a 'free ride', and still is more properly RWD.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
You misunderstood my posts.
I was talking about the shape of the torque curves, not the maximimum numbers. The shape of the torque curves are going to vary among even similar sized and cylindered motors.
Go back and read again.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
In its last few years it was an option.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
HP= (torque multiplied by rpm) all divided by 5252; so therefore HP curves tend to ascend rapidly and then flatten out at the top as rpm limits are reached. The point I was making that larger engines or 'stroked' engines by definition will almost always have a wide flat torque curves as would any of the engines in this particular group. If you can accept that torque is indeed a measure of instanteous twisting force available (lb. ft.) and it is what you feel in the seat of your pants when you intially hit the accelerator, you should also be able to accept that it is not a prime determinant of how fast a car accelerates, that would be HP, of course (or torque applied over time). Which is our 'Catch 22', the larger the engine, or the fact that it may use pushrods or may have a long stroke relative to its bore etc. can all serve to limit HP (because it is less willing to pick up revs) - while at the same time helping torque.
There is an interesting article about this in one of the car mags. this month comparing the E320CDI MB diesel to the E350 - and it even says that the CDI (with 400+ lb. ft.)feels quicker (which makes sense). But is it? Not by a long shot, the testers preferring that revvy gas V6 which incidentally has about the same specs. power and torque wise (and technical sophistication) as the Toyota 2GR.
Huh? You must have a unique and very improper definition of flat.
Torque curves for gas or diesel motors are NEVER flat. If they were flat they would not even be called torque CURVES.
*****
That's the Magnetic ride suspension at work. Essentially, it's a true Buick of old - Cadillac technology with some corners cut to make it a reasonably priced alternative for the average person. Cadillac body( DTS ), Buick interior and FWD to maximize interior space, Corvette suspension - though detuned to provide a luxury ride(Magnetic Ride), and of course, a bottom line that gives Mercedes and Lexus fits.
Net effect: Feels like a late 90s Mercedes S420, has zero torque-steer, and is great in traffic - way faster around town than the 3800 or 3.6.(drives very S420 like - eerily so - big, heavy, and yet handles and moves well despite its bulk.
GM, does not lose money on every car it sells.
Kill the 3.8
It will be gone by 2009.
Standard on all models 3.6
Which version ?
CXS or Super 320 HP Northstar option. Why do you need two V8's only 20 or so HP apart?
Just a idea as the Northstar comes with and without VVT.
This is what the 2010-2011' RWD Lucerne will look like.
(My Prediction):
CX- 3.6 "High Feature" V6 with 255-275 hp (hybrid option)
CXL-Same as above with trim enhancements. (hybrid option)
CXS- 3.6 "High Feature" Direct Injection V6 with 300+ hp. (hybrid option?) w/ maybe optional 320 hp. VVT
Northstar (while they phase them out)
Super- NEW "ULTRA V8" with 380-450 hp.
-Rocky
http://www.gminsidenews.com/naias/revitalization/buickria/lacrosse.shtml
That's if a Buick Velite Sedan doesn't come. This new LaCrosse, very well could see production. Buick, is going to be the new Lexus.
-Rocky
I mean - why can't they make something that looks at least reminiscent of a 60s or 70s Buick at least?
Oh - wait - I know why! All of the designers come from the same 4-5 schools. Groupthink asthetics. Ack.
Rocky
Rocky
-Rocky
One positive thing. Unlike design thieves from Korean brands, who steal parts from other brands and mix them together in their cars, this car is a GM.
I also look forward to G8. It looks great.
Rocky
Using that 'wonderful' 3.8 pushrod as an example - what you will see is the flattened top of what appears to be a bell curve - showing about a 20% loss of torque at low revs, peaking at 3500 rpm or so, and then declining the same 20% or so on the high end (maybe 5 grand or so for that engine). Guess I would have to draw a typical (for these engines) CURVE for you or if you can envision the top quarter of a light bulb that somebody sat on? The important thing about these 'curves' incidentally is not necessarily how 'flat' they generally are, but where they are relative to engine speed - because the widths of the curves, and the torque drop-off within that width tends to be closer than you might think. And BTW that diesel 'curve', whoever sat on my 'curve' was a whole lot heavier!
The photo link you posted reminds me of a school chums fathers 1955 "Roadmaster." 4 portholes and "Dynaflow", the ultra modern 2 speed automatic. The floor starter was a button above the top of the gas peddle.
Jay Leno has a fully restored '55.
how can Buick be the 'next Lexus' when not even Cadillac (as much progress as they are making) can do that? Tongue-in- cheek perhaps?
-Rocky
Just as there are many buyers out there that won't put a Hyundai in their driveway because of a 'cheap' Korean car perception, there are also many buyers out there that won't buy a Buick because of an 'old farts' perception. Whether either is actually true or not is not the point, is it?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
You said flat, and then went on to describe a shape that was not flat. What you meant was the curve had a flat (or nearly so) top during part of the curve.
So what? None of what you said negates anything I said.
(How flat your curve appears has a lot to do with how compressed or expanded is the number scale on the side of your graph when RPM is shown across the bottom. If you compress the torque numbers enough, most all curves will appear pretty flat for much of their length.)
The thing that I'm finding strange is that folks are beginning to hear about what the car actually is - comments like: that has that new Toyota twin cam in it doesn't it?
And at a vehicle inspection recently, the inspector who thought for sure it was a Lexus: or others that wonder how much I paid for my BMW (which I guess it has a passing resemblance to from the rear). You're right, perceptions are hard to change, and take some time and I wonder if Toyota might not have made a mistake in calling it an Avalon in the first place.