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Hyundai has been on the come up in the reliability department, now they just need to work on their customer service. I really don't think the Genesis is geared towards premium sport sedan buyers, rather...towards those that want a premium sport sedan and can't afford the likes of BMW, Infinity, Lexus or Benz.
Also, considering the price point, if Hyundai is on the mark like the rest of their vehicles...bang for your buck advantage will tip heavily in their favor compared to the 300 C or Impala SS.
However, the current trend that Hyundai has going now (customer service withstanding), more and more folks will start to actually start giving their vehicles a thought. The redesigned Elantra is a very sharp commuter/college student car, the Sonata is proving to be a worthy competitor to the Camry and Accord, the Azera is grabbing attention, and making folks that want the Avalon take a look.
Basically, I look at Hyundai (right now) as the maker that's providing a very nice option for those that don't have the money to plunk down on something costing $10K-30K more. However, if Hyundai is going to be serious about the whole luxury thing, then they MUST get a rein on their customer service practices because folks will demand better!
The 'hat' address BTW is:
Captain2
c/o President Hilary
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington DC 10001
subject to change, of course, as I consider my move to Canada at that point!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The only folks that perceive Hyundai to be cheap cars are those that have never driven them. They are people that are stuck on stigmas and what they've heard. I guarantee you that if you took a large number of folks and had them go test drive a Hyundai, their perception would change drastically IF...they were being honest.
You say that Hyundai should stay at the 'low end' market...and to be quite honest, that's what they are doing. They are just bringing quality to that low end and those that prefer the likes of Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan and Infinity are nervous. What's really scaring folks right now is that Hyundai seems to be putting out a very good product with a great fit and finish, along with technology that others are selling for $6k and more.
Everyone is quick to harp on Hyundai and their start, but folks NEVER talk about the start that Toyota and Honda had...they were NOT the reliable cars they are today. Hyundai stands out more because you have the other 2 to compare it with at this point. I think Hyundai is proving to be serious about sticking around for the long haul.
I figured you wouldn't back your end of the bet up...you too are scared that Hyundai will make you eat your words. :P
I can never talk bad about Toyotas as far as the reliability goes. My first car was a '80 Tercel, then I had an '86 1/2 Supra, followed by a '96 Camry. All 3 cars were great!
I've owned an '87 Excel (that had well over 250K miles when it was totaled) and the ony component that was changed was the transmission. After my Camry was totalled, I went looking for a car to replace it. I took a look at the '02 Camry and at the time, I couldn't afford the $23K they wanted. A buddy of mine told me to give the Sonata a look, so I did. Test drove it, worked the numbers and for everything I was getting in the Camry, the Sonata was only going to cost me $16,800. I owned it for 4 years, putting 105K miles on it and there were no problems. Sure, a couple of hiccups, but what car doesn't have them? When I say hiccups, I mean something that a dealer usually has fixed in about an hour. Only time the dealer kept the car more than a day was when I got the timing belt replaced, along with the spark plugs, alignment and a new bra that had to be ordered. Other than that...the car made me forget all about the Camry that I had grown to love.
That being said...the Azera doesn't make me miss any of the cars I've had in the past...not a single one!
The FE on the Genesis may be the only sticking point as it seems to be with the Azera for some. However, it's no worse than the FE on the Maxima to be honest. I think it is possible for them to get it around 30 mpg if they do things right. Only time will tell on this one.
However, if you want more power and the same FE as your Avalon, why not step up and get you a GS350??? I mean...that's about as close as you're gonna get to keeping the FE you had and getting more power. I guarantee you this much, if they upgrade the Avalon to match the numbers the GS350 has...you're gonna be paying GS350 money anyway to get it.
this is where we'll disagree - Honda/Toyota/Nissan (and of course 'Detroit') do need to be keeping a wary eye on those 'pesky' Koreans - Infiniti/Acura/Lexus not even in the same zip code. If Hyundai truly wants to compete with them - they need a name change and a substantial price increase, selling thru some serious 'butt kissing' new dealers. And yes, just like I said in 2342, there was a reason for the the term 'Japcrap' about 40 years ago something that had changed by the late 70s/early 80s. Rome wasn't built or reinvented in a day, and don't expect Hyundai to either.
It's already a publicized, known fact that Toyota is looking over their shoulder at Hyundai. There have even been discussions about Toyota bullying vendors into not selling to Hyundai.
You are right about one thing, Hyundai will need to do something about their dealers. That will be the Achille's heel for Hyundai.
Hyundai won't do a complete overhaul in a day (as you put it), but they are well on their way. They seem to have an understanding of what the consumer wants and they are giving it to them, a great price even. Take the price of the Azera for instance, it makes it pretty hard to worry about adaptive cruise control, Blutetooth, navigation and stuff like that. Hyundai has an advantage that Toyota and Honda didn't have...a blueprint to follow left by those two.
I don't see a name change as being what Hyundai needs. Everyone will still see them as Hyundai. Eventually, I see them doing like Toyota, Honda and Nissan have done...create a luxury brand and bring true premium sedans to market under that badge. However, I think they are fine with the vehicles they have under their current badge...with the upcoming Genesis being the last one they should try to bring out.
They've basically covered all segments except for pick-up and convertible. I mean...sub-compact economy, compact economy, mid-size, large sedan, mini-crossover suv, mid-size suv, full-size suv, sport coupe and mini van. And now they want to add full-size luxury sport sedan as well. They have every walk of life covered and offer a viable option for those that don't want to pay what Honda, Toyota and Nissan want for theirs. Simple economics in this day and age where everyone wants more for their money. That's exactly what Hyundai vehicles offer.
'hype' maybe the key word here, but you want to give me your address for my hat?
people that spend the $50k+ on a Lexus GS, a M45, a 550, , or even an RL are spending that money for more than just good cars and therefore won't take notice. Manufacturers won't take notice until potential customers do as well.
Kind of like Hyundai's recent run of ads comparing the Sonata to a 525 or a Santa Fe to a Land Rover, those kind of buyers couldn't care about some 'value' perception, they WANT to pay more and get a 'proper' nameplate. Hyundai should bide its time and solidify a quality reputation before attempting to bite off more than the market is ready to chew. Toyota had already done exactly that well before they even attempted Lexus in the later 80s, and even then were perceived (and priced) as a 'value' choice to a MB 'S' or BMW 7 series at the time.
Why do you suppose, for example that Infiniti was a lot more of a problem for Nissan than Lexus was for Toyota - do you think just possibly it was because Nissan didn't start with the same 'bulletproof' reputation that Toyota had at the time? The blueprint for success is right in front of Hyundai and there is more to it than simply just making better cars and flooding the market with new models, and tongue-in-cheek ads.
The GS is not big enough. I like the size and interior room of the Avalon. Plus, I really don't think that despite the RWD layout the GS is worth all the extra money. My budget wouldn't allow for a 50K car, 35K is about where I need to be.
As a side note, Hyundai is getting better but I really believe that the Genesis will be a tough sell for them. Let's face it, in the price bracket they are sliding it in, there are some fine cars. The Hyundai may offer more for the money, but there are going to be people that will stick to what is proven.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Anyway...
I do agree that the Genesis can be a tough sell for Hyundai. I think it will all be predicated on what happens with the Azera. Right now...it seems that Hyundai is starting to get behind it, but I'm wondering if it's too late. Personally, I feel that Hyundai should have done a full market blitz with the Azera until you either had folks knowing what it was or wanting to find out. Right now, I can pull up and someone can ask what it is and when I say Azera, they still have a quizzical look on their face. To me...that's bad marketing.
By the way...you can forward your had to the same address you gave me. I would say put it in care of G.W. Bush, but he may not know what to do with it if he got it.
You are so right about those comparison commercials except for one thing...they are not targeting the BMW, Land Rover buyers. It's showing people that can't afford BMW's and Land Rovers that you don't need to buy one of them to get the features they have.
Of course, I don't hear anyone complaining about the Ford Edge commercial talking about the Edge being faster than the BMW X5 0-60. All they are saying is you don't have to spend BMW kind of money to get great acceleration. Simple as that.
You are right, the blueprint is in front of them. However, in order to get the consumers to buy their cars, they have to make them more appealing, and for the longest time...Hyundai cars were always quirky. Now, they look like something most anyone would want to actually drive. I'm pretty sure they are heeding that blueprint, which is why they aren't jumping out there to create a luxury badge to sell the Genesis under. No...they don't want to make the mistake Nissan made. They are biding their time and at the same time, showing that they can keep up. Only time will show if they've paid attention to the blueprint. I mean starting with 2001-2002...it's only been 5 years, if they can be consistent for another 5, that'll be a big stepping stone for them.
Huh? They totally redesigned the previous generation added 70 HP, better FE, and only raised the price about 2K over the course of the line. You mean to tell me for a modest increase in power the price will raise that much? Base model XL's can be had for 28K, and I would believe that most models go out the door between 33 and 35K. Anyway, the car is a rocket right now, even if they didn't add power I will most likely lease another one. It's just nice to think they could squeeze out a few ponies without hurting FE.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
no, seemingly Ford is leading the pack in 'factual slant' - these Ford 'sponsored' comparos supposedly run by some well paid car publication, comparing cars (the Fusion) not equal by any stretch of the imagination in tests specifically designed to highlight the benefits of AWD ( and the lack of stability controls), hiding the deficiences under the hood and then, turning around and claiming any semblance of legitimacy for what they just paid for. That a bigger joke than the 525 vs. Sonata, but this is also something the Hyundai shouldn't have to resort to - the Sonata is not a bad ride in its own right. How's that for 'complaining'?
The next thing I expect to see out of Dearborn's marketing dept would pit the 'new' Taurus vs. something like a 535 or 528, feeding a whole bunch of gullible mullets a steak dinner and a 'Sunday' sales pitch to a bunch of historically Ford loyal customers, that would no sooner appreciate what a BMW is all about than my long gone grandmother would have. As PT Barnum once said.....
They should also vasty improve their dealership appearances to gain some more customer appeal.
The dealerships in my local area, (Palm Beach County, FL.) look terrible compared to the competition.
The Genesis will weigh much less, have a more high tech motor with less cubic inches to feed, and much better aerodynamics. I would definitely expect better than 15MPG.
Secondly, in regards to the Genesis competition, I agree that the 300C and "new" Impala are probable competitors (pricewise). However, if the interior design and materials of the Genesis are on a par with the Azera, that aspect will kick those competitors rear ends.
0% financing and $1000 Rebate...
So that made me curious about the 500:
$2000 Rebate
Looks like "Summer Clearance" is happening early this year. By July I wouldn't be surprised if the rebate on the 500 is over $3000.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I think its important to understand that Hyundai is a multi-billion dollar conglomerate that can afford to take these risks. And as much as we wanna question Hyundai's Genesis offering, hasn't Hyundai proven itself as a company with very good judgement over the last 10 years. Sales have increased more than any other company (%-wise) and in most circles they are a growing concern and a huge success. The best predictor of future performance is (recent) past performance. I guess we'll have to wait and see but I am quite sure this is going to be a huge attention-getter.
Oh and news out of Korea is that the Genesis will be released ahead of schedule in the home market. This could mean a sooner than expect launch here in North America. I think that would be positive as long as they have dotted the i's and crossed the t's.
$2000 Rebate
down here in Texas, both the 500 and the CV are being advertised at $6000.00 off, on a nominal $25k MSRP this amounts to somewhere about $4k BELOW invoice - an attempt by Ford I'm sure to get em off the lots if and when the Taurus shows up and I guess that the CV just plain doesn't sell. In either case you 've got to feel sorry for those buyers that bought either of these cars earlier in their 'run' - they may have just lost a few thousand themselves (in resale values) and it obviously can't be good for a struggling Ford to see their products sold so cheaply.
I hate to say it...I've NEVER seen a Maxima attract any attention in my area.
Do I ever get attention in my Azera? There wasn't a day that goes by that pedestrians on sidewalks, in crosswalks, in stores and folks driving by don't gawk at my ride. And this was before I added the rims and tinted the windows. Trust me, Maximas are a dime a dozen here in the DC area, there is nothing special about them. The folks lookin at your Maxima following the Viper were probably lookin at you thinking, "I bet he wishes he was driving that slick Viper in front of him!" LOL
I've got a neighbor that has and '05 Maxima 5 doors down from me and when I got my Azera, he drooled over it and said he wished he had held out because the Azera looked better than his Maxima. The only thing you got out the deal with 2 more HP and a tighter, sport tuned suspension. If I wanted a rough ride, I would have gotten a Max, but I wanted something that would ride nice and smooth.
I don't know what you consider to be plain on the inside, but the inside of the Maxima isn't exactly inspiring either. As far as getting one for $3k less than an Azera, yeah right! You can't get a fully loaded Altima for less than a fully loaded Azera. We're not talkin price after incentives, down payment and rebates. Straight up MSRP for MSRP...the Maxima is more than the Azera. Nice try though.
Even if you compare an '07 Max with an '07 Azera...both cars fully loaded, top of the line models...you aren't going to touch a Max for less than $30K. The Azera will come in around $4k-$5K less. I sure hope you weren't comparing a base model Max with a top of the line Azera! Then again, that could very well be exactly why you paid $3K less!
Then we should just stop talking about all future cars, spy photos/video, developement, etc.
The Hyundai BH is going into production this year for the domestic market. It's coming alright.
Who knows what will Nissan or Toyota make in 2 years.
I can tell you what Nissan or Toyota has in stores 2 years from now but the point is the BH is coming next year, not in two years, starting under $30K.
If Hyundai Corp. is going to be serious about marketing a luxury vehicle, they need to work on changing the mindset of the dealers and get out of that econo-sales mentality. Dodge/Chrysler went through the same thing when they made that 5-Star service push. Since then...they've become so much better.
You are right though, Hyundai does need to continue with the 'Best In...' categories.
Captain...to be honest, the car was getting attention long before the 20" chromes went on.
Only time can establish their ability to make well built and engineered cars, considering they just recently started the upward trend. The Sonata has been around for years and it's been a continual improvement. The Azera was a first time car for Hyundai from the ground up only a year ago. The BH (Genesis) will be following in another year. So somewhere between now and maybe 2010...we should know if they've been making the right moves.
As far as real cars go...Hyundai has give us the Azera. There is nobody out there, that can be honest about cars, that can say that the Azera isn't a viable option to it's competition.
The Azera is not a whole lot different in that it also a vast improvement over the old XG, granted had no name recognition, but also did'nt hit the streets with the same sort of demand as the Avalon. Don't know if some sort of promotional campaign would have helped or not - people buy things like Avalons because they are Avalons, don't know of anything that Hyundai makes that has that kind of following.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Great deals, unless you plan on getting rid of it in 2 - 3 years! Wait until the Taurus is on the lot, and the dealers are trying to get rid of the leftovers. No matter how hard they try, IMO, there will be plenty left.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Hyundai failed and has been failing the best car it's ever created, with a lack of marketing campaign and a seemingly lax approach to customer service. So to compare the demand for the Avalon to the demand for the Azera is apples and oranges.
I know word of mouth can be strong, but it's not strong enough for Hyundai to overcome the past problems it has dealt with. They should know that and they should be putting their best foot forward for their newer vehicles. The Sonata has been enjoying the media, as well as the Santa Fe and Tucson. Another vehicle that's left out in the cold too is the Veracruz they have. Hyundai has a long way to go to learn how to address it's vehicles and what priority to put on them.
true - and a good thing I guess because once they get thru those doors they treat them like crap! Just like Honda.
Around here...Altimas are up there with the Camry, Accords and Sonatas. You may see an Azera once or twice a week depending on where you go.
I can't tell you how many times I get the whole BMW thing with my Azera. Before the rims and tint, it was Lexus.
Surprised you would have an inspection already, up here you don't inspect a new car until its 4 years old. Every 2 years after that.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Since you were buying in August you probably got that deal because they were making way for the 2006 models by then.
Let me tell you it was fun trying to get that color with the options I wanted.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
it truly is a car forum, yes, but I guess you haven't tried to read your owner's manual lately - there are certainly a bunch of those nasty lawyers riding with you every day. If I'm not mistaken, my Avalon manual even goes so far as to tell me that I can't use my cupholders for a cup of coffee and cautions me strongly about drinking anything while I drive, not to mention those nasty looking airbag warning labels and lights that are there all the time as well- talk about CYA!
They only had two Azera's TOTAL in stock both 07 Limiteds with XM ($31,190 sticker). The sales manager told me Azzy's were literally being sold as the truck was pulling in. While mine was right at $26K loaded last Nov., the new ones are over $27K, including any rebates and they are selling all they can get.