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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    now THAT would be cynical ;) and maybe even true.
    The Azera has aced this type of thing ever since it first came out and now all of a sudden is gone; the Avalon while it does wells both long and short term has never appeared in this list TMK; the Montego/500 you can understand based on slow sales and older drivetrains; but the Grand Prix?
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re. 2439 "Then they offer those survey results for sale to the advertising departments of all those manufacturers."


    You may have something here Joe. Sorta like the CEO interviewing a candidate for CFO. CEO..."so, how much is 2 + 2"? CFO candiate "depends on what you want it to be"
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Finally, all of you who love azera came to realize that JD power ratings cannot be trusted. Few month ago here I was arguing how easy is it for automakers to raise their scores by simply offering to " help " fill out survey in exchange for oil change, free maintenance, fill up , etc.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    Any of these ratings must be taken with the understanding that buyers are reluctant to admit that they made a poor decision when purchasing any item costing big bucks.
    We will usually defend the items that we have purchased.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    You really have to have your head examined if any of you take this survey seriously. JDP initial quality survey has very little to do with how well the car will last in the long run. Does anyone takes this kind of survey seriously. Another retarded survey is the strategic vision quality survey. CONSUMER REPORTS is still the best barometer of vehicle reliability in my opinion.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Thus...that is why it is called INITIAL QUALITY. There are cars that come off the assembly line and the initial quality is terrible. I'm sure we all know this to be true. Right now, it's impossible to do a long term reliability survey for the Azera, it's only in it's 2nd (going on 3rd) year.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    CONSUMER REPORTS is still the best barometer of vehicle reliability in my opinion.

    I spit in their general direction. :P
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Barnstormer, you were being polite and more than kind. :blush:
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I no longer subscribe to them as I find hat sometimes their results are different from mine. They usually look at other factors then enjoyment for your ride. They are family oriented subscription.
    In reference to reliability if you take care and don't abuse your vehicle any vehicle will last a long time. Reliability in my opinion depends on person driving it.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Reliability in my opinion depends on person driving it.

    It's not the only factor, but it is an important one, IMO, and it's one that CR doesn't even try to account for . . not sure how they could, really.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    since genesis does not fall into large sedan, but most likely will be Hyundai's entry into midsize luxury market what will be the name Hyundai chooses. IF follow its past and copy Honda into Hyundai, then Acura into Acuyrai.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Why wouldn't the Genesis fall into the large sedan category when it will be larger than the Azera???
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 2451
    If the Azera is classified as a large car, certainly the Genesis should carry the same classification.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Is there an article stating how big the passenger and cargo compartments will be in a Genesis?
    Can you post a link to it?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Sorry, only thing I have to go on is the word of the Hyundai guy I talk to...who is very reliable with his info I might add. Everything he told me about the Azera before it even showed up, he was right on the money. He also told me about the Veracruz and more recently the Genesis.

    He has said the exterior dimensions are a couple inches longer than the Azera, maybe just as wide. At the least, I would expect the interior space to be very, very close to what the Azera has. Heck, the Sonata is knocking on the door of the large sedan category to be honest.

    Azera Specs
    Genesis Specs

    Azera / Genesis
    Wheelbase - 109.4" / 115.6"
    Length - 192.7" / 197.0"
    Width - 72.8" / 73.3"
    Height - 58.7" / 58.7"

    The numbers on the Genesis are VERY close to the numbers on the BMW 7 Series.

    7-Series Specs
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    BH certainly falls into large sedan category in classfication. It's a 7er in size, 5er as the competing class, and sub 3er in price - trifecta :)
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Cheap Man's Bimmer? Sorry, this doesn't work. BMW- big money works. Hyundai not known to people buying cars priced @ $50k+. If it makes you happy that you bought this imitation, good luck. But in no way this car will match BMW in performance and balance. If Hyundai creates luxury marquee and spends 10+ years perfecting it, people buying luxury sedans will think twice as they do now with Lexus. BTW Lexus now has $100k+ car and same thing will eventually happen to Hyundai if it launches luxury car. History is repeating itself. Initially cheap, efficient Japanese cars grew to become large and expensive luxury cars. Same history will be with Hyundai, cheap, not really efficient cars will grow in size and price.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    But in no way this car will match BMW in performance and balance.

    I never said it will, or will not. The judgment should be reserved until at least the car is released. Everything I said were true (starting at sub-30K, rival 7er in size, and compete with luxury midsize vehicles). You're reading (way) too much into what I said. Thanks for the lecture, though.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Well not according to allmet. I said same thing to him about genesis some time ago. He insists that we need to discuss this car in this forum, though its not on market yet.
    BTW Rolex and Rolexx are not the same watch. It looks like you are getting a deal, but in reality you will miss in details.
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    I'd like to point out that my Rolex keeps lousy time. It's not nearly as accurate as my Seiko. IMHO, the purpose of a watch is to keep accurate time, everything else is just window dressing.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Exactly why couldn't we discussing an upcoming car here? It fits within the criteria of the topic.

    Glad to hear you are writing off the car already before it even appears on the market. Bottom line, I am not going to speculate anything until I have had a chance to drive the car at least. Again, no one is saying a Hyundai is a BMW so please save the Rolex comparison. Everything I said was true, including the trifecta quote, which was just a light-hearted comment. You're making this something out of nothing...

    Anyway, my first impression of the BH, upclose and in person - nothing short of fantastic!! Look forward to seeing this car.

    PS: Rolex doesn't do a thing for me. Seikos are better IMHO :)
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Nissan Maxima will have its redesign in 2008-2009. should I discuss its design and features here?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We can discuss any car that fits the subject whether it's current or future. Anyone not interested in discussing any particular car doesn't have to. :)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re: 2457 "starting at sub-30K, rival 7er in size, and compete with luxury midsize vehicles)".

    I agree with joe97, priced below a 3-series to compete with the 5-series with the near size of the 7-series. A good way to market Genesis, and Hyundai can pull it off in terms of building, pricing and launching. Trouble is, if Hyundai doesn't do something quick about their lousey dealer / service department network, Genesis is doomed.
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Amazing what cache does. BMW stands for Bavarian Motor Works. It's Ford Motor Company written in German. Just like Mercedes Benz is General Motors written in German. The 3-series is an overpriced Chevrolet. The 5-series an overpriced Buick. Etc. Taxi's don't use them in Germany because they're too small, not because they're expensive luxury cars. Taxi's do use Mercedes, though. Load them up with leather and do-dads, over price them, and America thinks they're something special. Wasn't it WCFields who said there's a sucker born every minute. A lot of them appear to be buying German cars.....
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I've always enjoyed excellent service at the Hyundai dealership. Better than any other I've been to.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 2465
    Stick with your dealership. All of the ones I have seen are nasty and under staffed. The service writers are nice but not at all knowledgeable about the cars.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    "Load them up with leather and do-dads, over price them, and America thinks they're something special"

    Is this any different than the American or Japanese auto makers? There are many 40K + vehicles that have their roots in 20K entry level vehicles.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Just because your jalupa is cheap doesn't make it better. My car with less displacement and power still beats Azera 0-60, 1/4 mile, handling, etc.It also has a far superior engine compared to Azera. This car usually doesn't cost much more new (though I bought mine cheaper) then loaded Azera. It has all optional/available features needed to compete in this class. Where is optional navigation in Azera even though it's an optional feature in cheapest Mitsubishi?
    Now this is the response i received in the past - Azera has 10/100 warranty ( not fully transferable), more interior space ( how much of it is useful?)and cheap ( well this is the only thing I won't argue with)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Re 2468: Wow!!...prey tell what wonder car you have. We are on the edge of our leather bucket seats with contrast hand stitching.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >...pray tell what wonder car you have.

    Yes. Enquiring minds want to know here.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I hate to say this Alexstore, Hyundai is becoming known to those that used to drop $45K+ on a car. I've seen Jags, Benzes and Bimmers traded in for the likes of Sonata or Azera. Don't think for a minute that Hyundai isn't being recognized.

    Think of Hyundai like the old tampon commercials back in the day. Everybody knew about them, but...you only saw them once every blue moon. After a while...those commercials started playing every day, even during prime time hours.

    "But in no way this car will match BMW in performance and balance." How can you make a statement about a car that's not even here yet? Nobody at this point knows what this new BH will be capable of. IF (and that's a big IF), Hyundai is aiming this car directly at BMW and Mercedes...then they have their hands full and I hope they realize what they will need to do. As a consumer, I would hope that you're open minded enough to know how to recognize just how the BH would compare to the 5-Series or E-Class sedans.

    No...the Genesis is not and will not be a BMW or a Mercedes, BUT...it will offer those consumers that want one a viable option. THAT...my friend is what this is all about. In other words...leveling the playing field. I'm sure as Hyundai brings along their technology, the efficiency thing will get better than it already is.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Forget a Rolex, give me a Brietling!!! I'm with you Joe97, give me a Seiko Sportura Kinetic Chronograph and I'll be quite happy!!!

    image

    Okay, okay...that was off topic. Yeah, I'm with you...I can't wait to see the Genesis up close and personal. I just hope it doesn't end up like the Washington Redskins for the past decade...looking good on paper and being a dud!!!
  • oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    BMW North America, and Mercedes North America are highly profitable--coincidentally the two most profitable automobile companies in the world.
    Interestingly, most of their products are imported from Deutchland (altho' some BMW's are assembled in NA).
    Now why, when these brands are offered at generally more affordable prices in Europe, are they so expensive in NA?
    The answer, simply put, is--"markup" (aka "pure profit).
    How, you ask, does this happen?
    That answer is essentially one word--"marketing."
    We North Americans are so influenced by "status" that we are willing to accept, and pay outragious prices and obscene markups for basically ordinary vehicles by any standards, because they're perceived as "prestigious" and "superior".
    I'm not saying they aren't good automobiles--it's just that we can get basically the same thing for a lot less cash--but-- it won't provide that so essential "snob' effect we North Americans are addicted to.
    These so called "prestige" cars (along with a few Asian and North american counterparts), are the real moneymakers for the car companies.
    As you noted--"There's a sucker born every day!!"
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 2471
    It's a great option for those who are tolerant and like me, have time on their hands.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Alexstore, are you STILL contending that your Maxima will just literally blow the doors off an Azera??? LMAO

    You probably bought your Maxima as a dealer demo with some miles on it, so he gave you a good deal. There is NO way...EVER...that a fully loaded Maxima will ever sell for less than a fully loaded Azera straight up.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    are questioning me? 0-60 in 6.0-6.5 depending who is testing, Azera-7.0+
    this car was new and not a dealer demo.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    7.0+?

    Azera's road test from C/D:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/11168/short-take-review-2006-hyundai-azera-se-2006-hyundai-azera-se-specs-page2.html

    Edmunds - Editors' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2007

    Sedan Under $30,000

    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/mostwanted/2007/117174/article.html
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I wouldn't question your 0-60 time at all, but like I said before and I'll say again...your Maxima will NOT blow the doors off my Azera. You may even be in the lead from 0-60, but I guarantee you that over a longer stretch...I would walk you down.

    You know...you are probably right, you probably DID pay less for your Max than some might pay for an Azera, but you're Max is not the top of the line model, fully loaded. A fully loaded, top of the line Max would and will NOT sell for less than a fully loaded Azera Limited in a straight up sale.

    You keep thinking your Max will blow away and Azera, I wish I could be there to take your picture when you see you can't. How would you like your humble pie served, hot or cold? Plain or a la mode? ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Joe97...that's a good post to bring some reality to Alextore's life, but he is in denial. He's hardcore Nissan and he thinks his Maxima is king of the road. Let him have his wet dream...that is until someone with an Azera wakes him up and shows him that his dream is merely that...a dream. :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    at least part of the reason why the German made car is so high has to do with the mark/euro to dollar exchange rates - part of the reason that buying expensive cars overseas has been popular for years, and that many mfgrs. are now locating plants in this country. There certainly more money that goes into producing a BMW 530 series than let's say an a Toyota Avalon. The Avalon will outrun it but the Avalon is certainly not half the car from a dynamic perspective. In many respects you do get what you pay for and that 530 is worth the extra $20k because that is what BMW gets for them.
    There is obviously a whole lot more gross dollar profit made by all the mfgrs. of 'prestige' vehicles. By your comments I guess a buyer of a Cadillac, Lincoln, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura must, therefore, are all suckers?
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    LOL, alexstore, you had best get a better grip on reality. Azera's have been timed anywhere from 6.1 to 7.0. They also have a top speed of 147mph.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    And that's limited. Imagine the top speed would be without...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I've had mine up to 140 with no problems. Limited, huh? I'm gonna see if I can push mine up to the 147 to see if a limiter kicks in.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "The man who police believe set the speed record on Loop 101 and sparked a debate about whether the cameras clocked his correct speed says he’s innocent.

    Laura Lehan, lawyer for Lawrence Pargo, the man accused of driving a Hyundai Sonata 147 mph on Loop 101 on May 21, entered a not guilty plea Monday on Pargo’s behalf in Scottsdale City Court.

    Pargo, 26, of Goodyear was arrested May 26 by Scottsdale police on suspicion of excessive speeding, recklessness and endangerment.

    Pargo did not appear in court.

    A pretrial conference date for Pargo has not yet been scheduled, said Caron Close, Scottsdale city prosecutor. Neither Pargo nor Lehan returned phone calls seeking comment.

    Pargo, who was leasing or renting a 2006 Hyundai Sonata, was photographed by the photo enforcement cameras traveling 147 mph, 128 mph, 105 mph and 102 mph on four sections of the freeway, according to police.

    Some automotive experts, including certified Hyundai technicians, have questioned whether the Sonata could reach 147 mph, saying federally mandated speed limiters would have kept the car to no higher than 135 to 137 mph.

    A leading auto magazine, Car and Driver, also reported the top speed for the Sonata was 137 mph.

    However, Scottsdale police employees overseeing the speed camera pilot program and Redflex Traffic Systems Inc. — the city’s vendor for the speed sensors and cameras — said the equipment is accurate.

    If convicted of excessive speeding and the other offenses, Pargo would have to pay $201 for each speeding ticket and could be sentenced to jail, according to a clerk of the Scottsdale City Court.

    In January, Scottsdale launched the speed enforcement program, placing cameras on an eight-mile stretch of Loop 101 between Scottsdale Road and Shea Boulevard."
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...it may not be THAT far fetched. I had my '02 Sonata (2.7 V-6) up to 130. That engine is nothing compared to the 3.3 V-6 in the '06 Sonata. If it were possible for the person to remove the speed limiter, 147 mph just might be possible in an '06 Sonata. I'm not saying it would definitely happen, but...I wouldn't rule it out either.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    If you had it to 140 I would have to assume that the tires are "V" rated which would allow 149 MPH. If it had "H" rated tires it should be limited to 130 MPH. I am pretty sure that all manufacturers limit the top speed to the tire rating. Having said that, I myself have been guilty of some license revoking speeds but 149 in an Azera? Thats a pretty soft suspended car for that sort of speed. Keep in mind too that most speedos are off about 3 - 4% so 140 is most likely 135.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    "....buyer of a Cadillac...are all suckers?"

    Well, first of all I don't think any of those cars are worth the current pricing. Look at what the LS400 series sold for when it first came to the U.S. It was close to the price of a TownCar. I don't think the first Lexus were stripped down cheap cars either...but they were pretty cheaply priced. Now that it has the cache of the German makes, the prices have jumped disproportionally. It's certainly not because the car is that much better today than it was.

    One thing that has allowed car makers to charge more is leasing. Betcha prices would drop quite a bit if people had to buy on a 24 month payment plan with a large downpayment. And that goes across the board. Not only wouldn't you sell very many Caddy/Lincoln/Mercs/Lexus at their current prices. But you'd have a hard time selling a Taurus for $20K too.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You can exceed the speed that is recommended on a tire, the manufacturer just isn't responsible for what might happen to the tire if done so. I pulled 130 on the stock Michelin tires and the 140 I pulled were on the Z-rated Lexani tires.

    Yes, the suspension is quite soft for those speeds, so I made sure it wasn't on a road that was curvy or had traffic on it either that I would have to avoid. I also backed off as soon as I reached that speed, so I didn't maintain it either.

    To be honest, with the tire change I've done, I think my speedo is actually more accurate than it was with the factory tires. I know that sounds crazy, but checking my speed using a sat based nav unit, it clocked me accurately at speeds of 80 up to 90 mph.

    At any rate, the Azera can attain those speeds with little or no trouble at all. For those that doubt...you're in for a rude awakening.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    it was on incline that' why his speed was higher then 139.
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