Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2 · June 2007

does have a different exterior look doesn't it? By your pics it sure seems like Ford is still in 'show car' mode in terms of getting these things out for sale although I'm sure they'll happily take your deposit - afraid the car may be too little too late and still wonder why the 'Taurus' name. I assume that the 8.34 0-60 and that 85 mph quarter must be from the old 500 - sorry numbers that go along with a seriously overburdened engine - the new 3.5 would logically figure sub 7s and over 90. Any idea on the FE numbers or pricing?

captain2 · June 2007

the woodgrain on a new Sonata I drove recently was also a real downer, not even representive of any 'wood' I knew of, almost like it came from Jupiter! The Azera OTH much better (as would befit the corporate 'flagship', perhaps.)
Think that Hyundai, in general, does need to spiff up their interiors.

joe97 · June 2007

That was the article you were trying to make your claim? Not a good one to pick out and prove your point. The Santa Fe isn't perfect but certainly all others aren't either, I can point out a lot of faults of every other car. But credit should be given when it's due, and the Santa Fe has great fit-and-finish, and quality texture. Go examine one yourself if you don't believe me.

Let's leave it at that move back to the sedans, shall we?

alexstore · June 2007

well @ work we have ratio of 7/2 for male/female maxima owners. ( I was 2nd one to get it). Now I do agree with you that with 07 maxima redesign is plain patching job. If I was on a market now, I will buy Altima though my maxima with less HP still beats it to 60 because of Auto vs CVT.

captain2 · June 2007

yeah, that would be something that Maximas has always needed, more power!

Already likely the 2nd most powerful car in this group (among the V6s) and already amongst the leaders in FE. A great engine the VQ and I would not bet my farm that even my Avalon could 'out drag' it, and I know that it won't outhandle it and sure as hell, doesn't drive like it! Folks that buy Maximas do so for the car's responsiveness and generally sportier look and feel, Azera and Avalon buyers have different priorities - as they say - different strokes.....

jaymagic · June 2007

If I was looking for a sport sedan in this class, I think I would look at the VW Passat. LOTS more money, but well built and very good handling.

tjc78 · June 2007

Even the "SL" trim level of the Max is firmer than the Touring Avalon. I guess Nissan's image for performance would not allow for a "plush" riding sedan. As for Max VS Avalon in a race, I would say it would come down to the driver, they are that close.

alexstore · June 2007

yes you will beat me 0-60 in Avalon and in 1/4 mile.
I agree with you as to the reason , people buy Maxima over Avalon or Azera.

allmet33 · June 2007

The Passat would definitely get a nod, but that price tag...WHEW!!! That's the only thing that keeps it out of this forum.

allmet33 · June 2007

I can see the new Maxima getting the 3.7 L power plant and instead of getting 330 like in the Infiniti G37, it'll get the same 320 that the new 370Z would get.

They might also want to consider stretching it a lil bit to give he Maxima more room inside. I mean, right now...it is almost identicle to the Altima. It needs more than horse power to give it it's own identity.

tjc78 · June 2007

"It needs more than horse power to give it it's own identity"

The vehicle already suffers from torque steer... with 40-50 more HP it can only get worse.

allmet33 · June 2007

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....make it a RWD sedan and it'll fit right in with the 300 C / Charger R/T.

joe131 · June 2007

"...price tag...WHEW!!! That's the only thing that keeps it out of this forum."

How about the fact that the Passat, at 96.2 cubic feet EPA stated passenger volume, is NOT a large car? The Passat is smaller than the Elantra in that important regard. Seems like that is THE reason it is not included here.

batista · June 2007

I considered the Passat before I bought the Charger and found it very uncomfortable. Seats are too narrow.
It rated dead last in terms of reliability (Consumer Reports) with the 2.0 turbo.

allmet33 · June 2007

Well...yeah, that too.

alexstore · June 2007

What I am afraid of that your changes will make maxima heavy. IN addition with AWD or RWD it will weight 3800+ lb. One of the things I love in maxima that its not heavy and also by making it rwd it will compete with G35. My guess FWD and optional AWD will be in maxima's future. Same will be for Avalon and Azera.

captain2 · June 2007

in these days of $3+ gas, I doubt very seriously that you'll see any of these cars RWD (or even HONEST AWD) despite the 260+ HP, simply because of the weights (probably closer to 2 tons (like the 300)) , the fact that the platforms these cars ride on is shared with other higher production FWD vehicles and the fact that any RWD Maxima, for example, would poach sales from the Gs and Ms or a RWD Avalon from the GS and even the LS. Infiniti and Lexus make more money for their respective mfgrs (on a per unit basis) than Nissan and Toyota do - why would they want to screw that up? This type of thing is why I anticipate Hyundai going upmarket with the Genesis, while we can argue until we turn blue about market acceptance, it is still the most logical approach for Hyundai to take - a 300C/ Charger RT can get up there price wise.

captain2 · June 2007

conversely the 3.6 V6 has been doing pretty well reliability wise - a solid entry into the 'who's got the best V6 sweepstakes' and maybe an indictment of sorts on the costs of the added complexities of turbo/super charging?

oskidunker1 · June 2007

Tell me about the fron leg room. I am considering buying an Azera. Have a problem now with a a 2004 audi A6. Have right leg pain when I drive more than 40 minutes. Foot has to twist right to reach the gas and knee sometimes hits console. Would the Azera be better? I have not driven it but drove a Sonata.

floridabob1 · June 2007

re; 2611
I'm 6'3" with long legs and find the leg room in my Azera sufficient.
I have also driven a 2006 A6 and found that leg room adequate as well.

allmet33 · June 2007

I'm 6'2" with long legs as well...let room is far from an issue for me as well.

Do yourself a favor and take the Azera for a test drive, see for yourself.

dborth · July 2007

J.D. Power and Associates announced today that Hyundai Azera once again topped the large car segment in the annual 2007 Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout StudySM (APEAL), which measures owner delight with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles. The award represents the second consecutive year that Azera has topped the large car segment in the study. (28 Jun 07) Sourece: Hyundai News

icedogsvl · July 2007

And? JD Power gives "awards" to the firms that pay Licensing Fees...not exactly "Independent Analysis"

scbob · July 2007

I tried an Acura TL, Lexus ES and Infiniti G35 and found the Azera Limited to be as good as or better. The Azera rolls/wallows more on rough roads, but makes up for it in other ways. The ride/comfort in the Acura and Infiniti were much less than the Azera.
A 6"3" friend of mine and I recently took a 250 mile round trip. He said he had more room on the passenger side than on his Mercury Marquis. Was also impressed with the overall ride.
Try the Azera on a rough road for at least 20-30 minutes and put the sales person in the back seat or leave him/her at the dealership.

louiswei · July 2007

The TL and G35 are "Sports Sedans". ES350 and Azera on the other hand are "Boulevard Cruisers". Different animal, different characteristic.

captain2 · July 2007

not that the Azera doesn't deserve some of its accolades, but anything that involves money certainly does need to be put in proper perspective, doesn't it? If you review the recent histories of JDP I think you'll find that the recipients of these awards tend to be the ones that 'need' it the most (not the Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans) - amazing how that works. Expect the new Taurus to be receiving some Initial Quality/Satisfaction awards very shortly.

dborth · July 2007

re 2615: And? JD Power gives "awards" to the firms that pay Licensing Fees...not exactly "Independent Analysis"

Safe to say you are in the minority on this. Whatever spin you put on JD Powers, it's marketing propaganda that works. You should be so lucky to have that kind of clout in your respective field.

alexstore · July 2007

Common guys, stop using JDP as a measurement for a car. I said it many times how dealers can boost rating for any brand by offering some free service.

imidazol97 · July 2007

The JD Powers questionnaires I filled out were factual questions about things. They didn't ask if you were happy because the dealer gave you free oil changes, e.g.

alexstore · July 2007

if you took you survey to a dealer , he would have offered something free for you like tank of gas, oil change , etc. With gas over $3 or in some areas $3.50 I would have taken a dealer on that offer.

imidazol97 · July 2007

I think I understand now what you're thinking of. Some dealers ask you to bring in the customer satisfaction survey that the car company sends out, I guess to each purchaser. That is used to rate the salesman and the dealership. So they try to avoid anything below a perfect score by having the customer bring in the card/survey and letting them fill it out and mail it in. That's in exchange for free oil changes or some other perk.

It's not the JD Powers surveys.

goodegg · July 2007

J.D. Power and Associates announced today that Hyundai Azera once again topped the large car segment in the annual 2007 Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout StudySM (APEAL), which measures owner delight with the design, content, layout and performance of their new vehicles.

Is this news?

Can you think of 1 person, after buying a new car and committing lots of money, saying they bought a POS?

dborth · July 2007

Re 2624: It might be to the uninformed, or did you overlook that? This is an information exchange forum. If you don't like the content, move on.

bhmr59 · July 2007

And maybe people don't care how many times you have offered YOUR opinion about a nationally recognized survey of new car owners.

People can take JDP's finding about any car into consideration. They don't know "axelstore" from shinola.

quietpro · July 2007

Those of you who talk about your dealers who offer "deals" to unscrupulously allow them to fill out your questionaires for you must deal with different manufacturers than I. I thought I'd put your theory to the test recently after having some service performed on my car (a tire pressure sensor failed). During the service, the interior was left a little dirty. So, I answered their letter to me asking to give them the chance to address any item I may be inclined to answer as less than outstanding on a manufacturer's survey. I let them know while the overall visit went very well, I didn't like the condition in which my car was left. Rather than being offered a tank of fuel or any other bag of goodies, I was simply offered a free car wash during my next service visit. I guess maybe GM and Chevrolet are a little more ethical than the companies that don't need JDP.

imidazol97 · July 2007

>you who talk about your dealers who offer "deals" to unscrupulously allow them to fill out your questionaires for you must deal with different manufacturers than I. I thought I'd put your theory to the test recently after having some service performed on my car (a tire pressure sensor failed).

I believe you have misunderstood which survey we're discussing. Many companies send a survey about the initial delivery and purchase experience of the car; that's when you're buying it. The dealer and the salesman gets rated and bonuses are paid or lost by the results.

The survey you're talking about is for the dealer about their service department.

joe131 · July 2007

Well, you gotta think that J.D. Powers surveyed other large car buyers too, right?
And the percentage of excellent ratings by new owners of the Azera was higher than those of other models. That's how the Azera would (and did for 2 years in a row) win!
Can I think of 1 person who would not give excellents on the expensive car they just bought? Maybe I can and maybe I can't. But I don't matter. It is the J.D. Powers survey participants that matter. And I ain't one of them. Yet.

imidazol97 · July 2007

>Can I think of 1 person who would not give excellents on the expensive car they just bought?

I believe the people who had paid an above average price and who are careful enough in their shopping they chose the Azera would be among the first to complain about something of merit deserving a comment about less than satisfactory quality.

allmet33 · July 2007

The thing is, with the Azera...it's not an "expensive" car. I simply looks and feels expensive.

There are plenty of folks that post complaints they have about a car they paid $30K+ for. However, there are plenty that complain and if you really look at their complaint...a longer test drive would have pointed out the particular issue to them. Some folks buy a car simply on hype.

captain2 · July 2007

(Azera buyers) would be among the first to complain about something of merit deserving a comment about less than satisfactory quality.
not so sure about that - if that buyer had bought an Avalon instead, perhaps. Quality issues are usually justified against what is perceived to be savings. OTH, if that same buyer did go out and pay the extra money for an Avalon,for example, he has higher expectations, as well as he should. Likewise, if that buyer did save a few grand by buying any less expensive car, and has no problems with it, then he/she is even more 'initially' satisfied with it.
Had I bought an Azera instead of my Avalon, I would anticipate more problems from the Hyundai (or 'Detroit') products, than I would expect from Toyota/Honda/Nissan products - and there is history that would support that 'opinion'. Bottom line: if you spend more money on anything, the less tolerant we all become with quality related issues.

allmet33 · July 2007

Captain2...I disagree with that. A problem, is a problem, is a problem...regardless of how much money was spent or the perceived savings.

So you mean to tell me if you anticipate problems, then you're less likely to complain when they come up?

Land Rover sells some of the more expensive SUV's on the market, they regularly post high numbers of problems per 100 vehicles and yet...people are still buying them. Doesn't seem that folks are becoming intolerant at all.

imidazol97 · July 2007

Many people buy an Avalon because it's a Toyota and they've come to believe they have no problems. They do little shopping and evaluating what is actually in the car; they just buy because, well, they know it's the best.

On the other hand people buying an Azera and putting that much into to instead of buying a Camry or Sonata are people who value what they spend and get. They are MUCH more likely to complain about things.

pat · July 2007

I think all these generalizations are difficult to prove. Some people are more prone to complain than others - that may have more relevance than what vehicle the person actually has.

captain2 · July 2007

So you mean to tell me if you anticipate problems, then you're less likely to complain when they come up?
exactly, if I go out and buy a $300 dishwasher instead of a $1000 one, I can 'justify' the fact that the $300 one lasts half as long. An example not really applicable in this case - but how, IMO, most people think. Folks that go out and spend the extra few grand for that Avalon EXPECT it to be more reliable because that is one of the things they think are paying that extra money for - so therefore, in the event that it isn't, they are MORE likely to complain about it.
The real point I am trying to make, is that this is the reason why cars that are comparatively less expensive up front tend to dominate these silly satisfaction surveys. I have never seen a Toyota/Honda/Nissan 'win' anything from the JDPs of the world - perhaps because they don't 'need' (or would use) the publicity, and are generally higher in initial price.

dborth · July 2007

Just simple marketing, be it focus groups, ADV hype or propaganda. I too was hustled to bring in my survey by the Hyundai dealer sales manager so the "rep" could get a "spiff". I didn't get a spiff when I purchased though, but one hell of a deal nonetheless.

Many consumers depend on the JD Powers and their ilk from eletronics to lawn mowers. It's consumer captivity many emerging manufactures such as Hyundai can ill afford to ignore.

jaymagic · July 2007

I expect my Azera to have as few or fewer problems than an Avalon. I have owned an Avalon and had an XG350. Had a couple of more minor problems with the Avalon, than I did the Hyundai (ex. the cup holder door stuck shut on the Avalon). Of course, the warranty is longer on the Azera -- another reason I expect it to at least match the longevity of the Avalon.

People who have not actually owned a Hyundai built in the last few years (like you) are still basing their opinions on Hyundai's past. I can remember when Toyota's and "Datsuns" were FAR from trouble free. Now I expect them to be darned near perfect (and by and large they are), but so are the newer Hyundai's. if any car has suffered too many faults in the last few years, it is MB. But, I understand they have made an effort in the last year or so to move back up the quality ladder.

captain2 · July 2007

Of course, the warranty is longer on the Azera -- another reason I expect it to at least match the longevity of the Avalon
you really believe that? It was Hyundai that started all this 100k warranty BS simply because they were trying to convince the American car buyer that those earlier cars they produced were 'mistakes'. In any case, these longer warranties certainly have nothing to do with REAL quality, they are only a marketing ploy - if Hyundai needed to they would offer a 200k warranty - if it got you to buy the car, and likewise the Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans of the world have the more usual 60k warranties because they don't NEED to offer a longer one in order to sell their products. Quality and longer warranty length may possibly be a contradiction in terms!

gamleged · July 2007

"Quality and longer warranty length may possibly be a contradiction in terms!"

While that might obtain, it would soon become very expensive for a company that hadn't properly designed/built its cars so that the long warranty (a helpful selling point) is seldom ever needed.

If you build a good product, you then need to get people in the driver's seat, and if you DID build a good product, they'll stay in that marque's seat... :shades:

joe131 · July 2007

Well, the J.D. Powers category is Large Cars, not expensive cars. There are other large cars besides Azera that are not really really expensive.
That Azera is a great value takes nothing away from it winning awards.
To me, buying any car for $25,000, or $10,000, or even less, is expensive.
No money tree in my back yard.

tjc78 · July 2007

Expensive is all relative. Fact is aside from the lower lines of the Impala and TaurHundred most large cars are over 25K and to most that is expensive. However, when recently riding with a "high ranking" colleague who only drives BMW's he thought 34K for my Avalon was cheap. I didn't agree!

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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