Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

bhmr59 · July 2007

"It was Hyundai that started all this 100k warranty BS"

I don't understand what is "BS" about an exceptional warranty. I think most people are happy about a long warranty, regardless of the make of their car. Certainly people who buy Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans buy extended warranties. Hyundai includes the long warranty in the price of the car, the buyer doesn't have to pay extra for it unless he wants to extend the B2B beyond 5 years & 60,000 miles.

Is it a marketing tool? You betcha. Does Hyundai get hammered on warranty claims? Not likely, as they will continue to include it.

It was a factor in the 2 Sonatas we bought, it was a factor to a friend who bought an Azera and to a friend of his who is buying a Tuscon. If some cars are so bullet proof what would they have to lose in offering an equal waranty?

The next time you are in the market, take a serious, objective look at the Azera. You make be pleasantly surprised.

gamleged · July 2007

Back when I bought my first Honda, a new 1975 Civic CVCC, I bought the extended warranty because back then, I was taking a chance with a new, not really "proven" (in America) car. Didn't need to use the extended warranty and I didn't worry about getting one for either of my next two Accords... :shades:

allmet33 · July 2007

Actually, my friend...if you go back, Volkswagen had a 100K miles warranty long before Hyundai started theirs.

A longer warranty really does mean a company stands behind their product. If they were selling crap, then a long term warranty would hurt them because they would lose money with warranty claims.

I agree, longer warranty doesn't equal quality, however...it does show me a company is willing to put their money where their mouth is.

pat · July 2007

Here's the link: alexstore, "Hyundai Azera Oil Changes and Other Basic Maintenance" #138, 5 Jul 2007 5:18 am.

alexstore · July 2007

Pat I actually disagree with you on your decision to move my post. I own Maxima and question was related to discussion of a warranty for mainstream large sedans. Based on response from it's owners I could ask them a second question.

pat · July 2007

This is a comparison discussion - the best place to ask specific questions like the one I moved is in a dedicated vehicle discussion. If you have more general questions for owners of several of the vehicles we're talking about, feel free to post them here.

bruneau1 · July 2007

Go drive the new Taurus or Sable and compare prices. While the Azera is a good looking car, i think you will have a surprise which may change preconceptions. I excluded the AZera from my considerations because of seat comfort and a few other things.

allmet33 · July 2007

Seat comfort is going to be an individually subjective opinion. While one person may find the seats in the Azera to be uncomfortable, someone else may find them to be just great.

I actually like looking at the Taurus, even though it's exterior is bland...it is however, distinctive in it's own right. It definitely sports a much better look than past Tauruses. My problem with the interior, even though it's quite cavernous...all the straight lines and hard looking surfaces...it almost looks clinically minimalistic. The interior just doesn't make me want to get in and take a seat. Yet, as I stated before...this is my subjective opinion.

In the end, it's going to boil down to what does it for you.

barnstormer64 · July 2007

The interior just doesn't make me want to get in and take a seat.

In general, it's the fact that I have to be somewhere else that motivates me to get into my vehicle. :P

allmet33 · July 2007

Then it seems like you need to change lifestyles!

captain2 · July 2007

I agree, longer warranty doesn't equal quality, however
Just like GM now offering the longer warranties, the companies that do this do it because they HAVE TO! Not because the cars are more (or less) troublesome, but because that brand is 'living down' a reputation, the cars sell better, and/or the the car buyers expects the warranty. If Hyundai was still producing that trashy Excel (really the car that created the 'need' for the extended warranty in the first place), they still have the 100k powertrain warranty regardless of how much it might cost them to service it. No one would buy one otherwise.
The day that Toyota/Honda/Nissan start having to lure buyers with a 100k warranty is likely also the day that they have started to lose their grip on the car business. Repair history statistics would indicate that it would cost them less to do so and all three have been making gobs of money so that they all could afford to do it. Well, why don't they do it then? No faith in their own products? Not likely! How about simply that they don't need to - their cars sell just fine - the 'Japanese brand' buyer is expecting a car that can run relatively trouble free for 200k and is willing to pay a little extra for it, the same buyer in a Hyundai showroom is probably worried about it and expects to pay less for it. Hyundai (and GM/others) only warranties its cars the way they do because they are FORCED TO and because the American autobuyer won't give them the time of day without it.
I believe that Hyundai does not provide 100k warranties to its cars sold outside the US, it will be interesting to see if the Azera (and the company's other products) proves to have the same sort of long term quality/reliability as THN products and sells well, if that warranty doesn't disappear.

captain2 · July 2007

don't understand what is "BS" about an exceptional warranty. I think most people are happy about a long warranty, regardless of the make of their car. Certainly people who buy Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans buy extended warranties
it is only 'BS' in that it certainly has nothing to do with a car's quality. Extended warranty policies on anything continue to be premier money makers for those that offer them, a rather expensive security blanket for those that need it. My 2 year old Avalon has over 50k on it now and I continue to get calls wanting me to buy an extended warranty - hmmm, wonder why?

vic10 · July 2007

vic10 · July 2007

Let's try this again without the cat jumping on the keyboard....

The 300C maybe priced a bit high in this category but since Avalon has been mentioned, maybe not. And there's always pre-owned.

I've owned mine since Sept 2004. Has 36K miles. Other than a temperamental rear window (motor/controller replaced) and a leaking transmission seal (replaced about 20k back), I've had no problems. It averages 20 mpg to and from work, and highway driving as high as 28 mpg as long as I keep it under 75 (where the MDS shuts down). It's roomy and quiet and I can sit for 5 hours straight driving without any discomfort.

But the Love came to me the other day driving to work. There were three situations where I wanted to: Merge with traffic from a side street; get on a highway; get out of the way of a "here I come look out" semi. The car's response was instantaneous. Suspension: Solid, no wallowing, no lean, no hop. The steering: Quick, precise. Engine/transmission: Instant power; both the motor AND the transmission were there NOW, as though they were wired directly to my brain rather than through the pedal; no hesitation, yet no jerkiness--just turbine smooth power.

Yes, it has it's faults. The suspension is a bit too firm, and the front end is sensitive (though different tires did a lot to address that). And the styling is something you either love or hate. But it's a heck of a car. And if you DON'T like driving like a little old lady (on a Sun day afternoon...with a floppy hat), you owe it to yourself to check one out.

scbob · July 2007

I owned a Ford Taurus (Sable). Ford is infamous for the transmissions failing at 75,000 miles and above. That's why they do not have the warranty that Hyundai has. Also, it does not have the quality or safety of the Azera.
Both a friend and I owned 2003 Camry's. The quality is no longer there and Toyota was quick to jump on "not covered by warranty."

gamleged · July 2007

"Both a friend and I owned 2003 Camry's. The quality is no longer there and Toyota was quick to jump on 'not covered by warranty.'"

That's disappointing! Having been a Honda owner since 1977 (two accords spanning 30 years between them), I'd always felt that Honda and Toyota were about neck-and-neck (with Honda being maybe a nostril ahead)! :shades:

Only complaint I had with Honda (which sent me to try the Azera) was the lack of front-end styling... like half of a hard-boiled egg, compared to others' styling.

The Azera's extended warranty helped put me in that driver's seat, and if I have no or very little need of the long warranty, I may very well remain in that make's seat, as the decades go by...

quietpro · July 2007

Just a couple of opinions I'd like to share on discussions that have been ongoing...

If the assumed high value manufacturers have such great reliability, they would have nothing to lose in offering a comparable warranty to Hyundai, GM, and the others. While they don't HAVE to match them to keep sales up, why not do it anyway? It just doesn't make good business sense. The fact is, they suffer from equipment failures just like everyone else and while their failure rates are slightly lower, they are percieved as being FAR lower. At this point in time, they are riding the wave of their reputation. More power to them but I wouldn't consider it a superior deal to get a lesser warranty.

On the issue of who would expect more or less failures/errors, and thus complain, that could be argued either way. The blissful "high-quality" buyer that just assumes all things Toyonda are the best they can be may take all failures that come along as expected. They may just assume that those poor lost souls who aren't as enlightened as they are and bought some crappy domestic brand or lesser Japanese/Asian brand are suffering far worse than they when in actuality, they may be suffering higher failure rates. This would make them more likely to be complacent and less likely to complain.

tjc78 · July 2007

"why not do it anyway? It just doesn't make good business sense"

Huh? I think it makes perfect sense. Why pour money into something when you don't have to? You don't see 0% financing or 3K rebates on hot cars do you? These long warrantys are the same thing IMO. They are nothing but a selling tool. The fact is the insanely small percentage of major powertrain failures before 100K is very small and the manufacturers know it. The 100K warranty costs them very little and it gives them a reason to be different. Toyota and Honda won't extend their warranty until they can't sell all they can make. I don't see that happening anytime soon. While I agree that the gap is narrowing and GM is coming around (think Saturn Aura) it will still take a long time to win back the scores of buyers that flocked to Toyota and Honda.

allmet33 · July 2007

Ummmmmmmmmmmm...you are aware that Hyundai's warranty came along well after the demise of the Excel, right? It wasn't just the Excel that wasn't such a great car for the, if you recall...the Scoupe.

I'm on my 3rd Hyundai and guess what...I don't worry about it. The warranty is simply peace of mind for me.

So I guess BMW HAS to offer their free maintenance program, huh?

captain2 · July 2007

Hyundai offers its warranty largely to dispel consumer quality concerns, a reputation they established largely because of things like the Excel. Of course, it came afterward - if they weren't suffering from this 'Korean Car' rap, chances are there would be no 100k warranty today.

captain2 · July 2007

and yes BMW does in effect, HAVE to offer its 50k free maintainence - a function of some (largely electronic) problems theyt have had recently and a function of those white collar employees called BMW mechanics! I have a number of friends that will only keep their BMWs as long as they don't have to pay for the scheduled maintainence.

captain2 · July 2007

the funny part of GMs 'progress' though is that Saturn is largely becoming rebadged Opels out of Germany, and the new G8/Impalas etc. are out of Australia (Holden).

allmet33 · July 2007

Exactly...Hyundai is putting their money where their mouth is. In my mind, that's just what a company should do...stand behind their product. Granted, MOST powertrains can easily go 100K miles before any issues arise. Take for instance in my case...had I bought a Toyota, the warranty would have been done and over with in just over a year as I put 36K miles on it in about 14 months. Which would mean...any issues that arise after that 1st year would come right out of my pocket.

Who's to say that Hyundai wouldn't be offering the warranty if they hadn't gone through what they went through in the beginning. In a way, it's a great selling point because the company is saying that you can buy Toyota or Honda (which are known for their reliability), or you can buy a Hyundai and we're (Hyundai) is so confident about their product that they are willing to stand behind it with the warranty they offer. Heck, even the bumper-to-bumper is 5 year 60K miles...most of the other guys offer only 3/36.

The point is...with gas prices where they are now, folks don't have time to worry about repairs on a vehicle. It's tough enough paying the car note. So the warranty offers a little breathing room in that respsect.

tjc78 · July 2007

"Saturn is largely becoming rebadged Opels out of Germany"

GM is a master of taking something old changing the grill and calling it "new". Lucerne anyone? I haven't driven an Aura yet, but know someone who seriously considered it saying it was an extremely nice driving car. GM is coming around and has some aggresive marketing going on too. I hope the new Impala and G8 are something to talk about, because the competition with the imports will only bring us better cars all the way around.

allmet33 · July 2007

From my understanding the G8 will be one to consider in this forum.

captain2 · July 2007

while there seems to be no doubt that Hyundai has improved their quality, you still seem to equate warranty with quality when actually the opposite is probably more likely. Do you really think that GM, to use another co., would be offering its similar warranty if it had the same sort of reliability reputation (and sales nos.) as THN has?
I don't perceive the newest GM offerings to have quality issues either (at least, over the same 'paltry' 100k miles). GM is only 'standing behind' its products because they need to represent a quality that may or may not exist as well as to recover some of that market share they have lost. Hyundai is in the same boat IMO, only with generally better cars.

oskidunker1 · July 2007

Audi has done away with free maintenance. This is one of the reasons( along with the escalting new car costs) that is causing me to buy non Audi for the first time since 1987. They are arrogant bastards who think they can do whatever they want, take away everything, raise the prices and keep market share. We will see. I heard one month this years Audi sales were down 44%. risiduals are bad and people can get better deals on BMW's and Mercedes, if they still need the badge.

allmet33 · July 2007

I guess that's how you're gonna look at it. It's one thing to just say, "Hey...our vehicles are better!", as opposed to a company offering a lengthy warranty to show that they are not worried about losing money because even with the lengthy warranty, they don't feel they'll have enough warranty claims to put them in a hole. If that were the case, they would scrap the lengthy warranty program they have for a shorter one.

Whatever the case may be, the company is physically standing behind their product by offering that type of warranty. They are saying that SHOULD something happen with this vehicle...we'll take the load off your shoulders. Toyota, Honda and Nissan...they thank you for paying more for their product and in MOST cases any problems that do come up won't happen until after the 3/36 has run out and then it falls completely on the customer.

Some folks lose their cars when a major repair happens because there's a large number of folks that live paycheck to paycheck and a major repair bill just doesn't get factored in to the budget. Well...with a lengthy warranty or free maintenance plan...all customers have to worry about is paying a car note.

captain2 · July 2007

They are arrogant bastards who think they can do whatever they want,
while this may be a tad strongly worded, I think there is a danger of this same sort of thing at your local Toyota and Honda dealers (and factories). Keep in mind also that those German mfgrs. are additionally handicapped by a strong Euro vs. a weak Dollar.

captain2 · July 2007

a (maybe not so small point of correction - TMK, THN all come with 60k powertrain warranties (not 36) and 36k 'bumper-to-bumper', compared to the 60/100 by Hyundai/GM.

allmet33 · July 2007

Okay...yeah, you're right....a minor point. Only means that in my case, the warranty would be null and void after 2 years of driving! :P

pat · July 2007

Guys, we're getting sidetracked in several directions from the actual vehicles we're supposed to be discussing...

captain2 · July 2007

you're right....a minor point
and then I guess that 24k/40k difference in the basic warranties would also be 'minor', especially given that any of these cars should easily pass the 100k mark given any semblance of scheduled maintainence. Not that I'm denying that things do happen in specifically that 60-100k window, but it sure would be much rarer than it happening at all, wouldn't it?

cnw · July 2007

Read an article the other day that new BMWs don't come with a dipstick for checking the oil. Owner of vehicle had a "low oil" warning light come on; couldn't find the dipstick, so he took it to the dealer. Dealer informed him the only way to check the oil level was to drain it, measure the quantity drained, then refill with proper amount. Maybe that's why the maintenance program is free? Or maybe the exorbitant price of the car is just pre-payment for the maintenance it will require?

allmet33 · July 2007

Wow...for a car to have it's oil low light come on would indicate some very bad things:

The driver hasn't been keeping up with regular oil changes.

If new, the car was delivered with an inadequate amount of oil in the engine.

The car has a major oil leak.

However, the lack of a dipstick for an owner to be able to check the oil level would simply seem to be another way to force the owner to have to bring the car in to a service person.

pat · July 2007

Normally you'd be right about bad things indicated by a low oil light, however with the early 07 3-Series the problem was the oil sensor itself was faulty. The bad sensors were coming on when the level of oil was correct, but since there is no dipstick, the owner cannot be certain and can't ignore it.

For more you can see this and other posts in the same discussion: wa201, "BMW 3-Series Oil Questions" #74, 6 Feb 2007 8:31 pm.

I'm passing that on fyi, but let's don't get sidetracked on this issue since the 3-Series really doesn't belong in this discussion.

allmet33 · July 2007

Well, does the 5-Series have the same issue??? If it did, then you could have made it relevant by using the 5-Series as the example!

At any rate, I'm not really worried about it as my Azera has as dipstick that allows me to check the oil level when ever I need to!

pat · July 2007

Heh. But no, not that I've seen or heard.

gamleged · July 2007

My Azera has at least two dipsticks, one for oil, th' other behind the wheel, as a flashback to my early days in the military reminds me: "Whut did ah jus' tell you to DO, Airman dipSTICK?!"... :shades:

msazzyindc · July 2007

I'm an Azzy driver and I'm 34. I've been riding, and I repeat riding moreso than driving (but I have driven often) an Infiniti and I can say that they are very comparable. What my Azzy has my Mom's Infinity has and they ride the same. I can say that the Infinity has alot of get-up but dag on it, I think that the Azzy has some get-up too!

I actually believe that the Azzy limited has more room in the back and trunk room than the Infinity (although not mentioned by anyone in this thread)

I bought my Azzy because it was in my price range but it gave me ALOT of the comforts and luxuries that the Infinity has. (PERIOD!)

I love my Azzy but I hate my original dealership...looking for another one besides College Park Hyundai

allmet33 · July 2007

Yeah...it's hard not to give the Azera a serious look. When folks ask me about mine, I tell them, "Don't go in to test drive one, you'll find it hard to leave without buying one!" LOL

Good luck in finding a new home. Like I said before, I've been throroughly pleased with the folks over at Alexandria Hyundai for 5+ years now ('02 Sonata and now my '06 Azera). They have always taken good care of me and my cars. When you get there, ask to speak to the service manager (really good guy) and tell him that Mike Washington sent you over there.

alexstore · July 2007

Now which infinity she has? I don't think its M35 or 45. In addition , Infinity though a luxury brand, is sporty in nature. As with most sporty luxury class cars, rear seat space is smaller than usual.

allmet33 · July 2007

The only one that is an issue is the G35 and the old I's and maybe the old J's. The M's and the Q's...definitely don't have that problem.

alexstore · July 2007

Can someone tell me why is it that Azera is compared to LS460, while its missing many of the luxury items of its little brother Avalon? I am sorry but 263hp in Azera vs 380hp in LS460, 60 in 6.5 vs 5.4 the only place , where these cars are close is in Fuel economy.

allmet33 · July 2007

Why, why...WHY are folks so near-sighted??? They are not comparing the cars feature for feature. They are simply saying...you can go out and spend all that money on an LS460 (if you want), however...you can spend a fraction of that money and get a very well appointed Azera. Granted, it can't park itself, but with the money you save...you can easily afford valet parking (not to mention a couple of European vacations)!

Calm down and look past what you see.

tjc78 · July 2007

In all honesty here who buys an Azera (or Avalon for that matter) who can truly afford an LS? I see where the comparison is going but it really (IMO)has very little merit.

allmet33 · July 2007

You are absolutely correct. I think another thing that Hyundai is saying is that for the money an Azera costs, you're still getting more luxury than most cars in the same price range and you should feel good about that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sitting here thinking that Hyundai isn't stretching (to say the least). It's now worse than Ford comparing their Edge to a BMW X-5. Yeah...like any Ford vehicle can compare to any BMW! Anyway, they're simply saying you don't have to spend X-5 money to accelerate like (or faster) than an X-5. :surprise:

Folks really stop needing to be so literal when they watch those commercials.

If you want to get mad about one, get mad at those AXE and TAG body spray for men commercials. I use AXE products here and there and I don't have women attacking me like they suggest in the commercials. :mad:

barnstormer64 · July 2007

In all honesty here who buys an Azera (or Avalon for that matter) who can truly afford an LS? I see where the comparison is going but it really (IMO)has very little merit.

Me. Well, sorta. I could afford an LS if I chose to do so. Instead, I chose the Freestyle, so I could spend all that extra cash on other things, instead.

alexstore · July 2007

Why is it that Azera in their commercials is not compared to 300C, Lucerne, Maxima or Avalon? All these cars have same target buyer and price range of 25-35K.

allmet33 · July 2007

Are you serious...do you truly not get it??? The commercial is saying that you can spend $70K+ to get a luxury car...if you want, but...the Azera gives those of us who can't afford an LS460 a chance to have a bit of luxury.

Why not compare it to the 300, Maxima or Avalon...none of those are touted as luxury sedans. Of those 3, the one that comes more closely to luxury would be the Avalon. I've driven and ridden in a 300 and Maxima...there is nothing luxury about either of those cars. Just because the 300 slightly resembles a Bentley, doesn't mean it's a luxury car. That is why you don't see it advertised as such.

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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