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Comments
IMO here they are:
Torque Steer
Smallish Interior (compared to others in segment)
Resale value not much better than Hyundai
City gas mileage when DOD not engaging
What speed is your 28 -29 MPG at? The website claims 16/24 I guess thats the new standard. My Avalon will pull at least 30 at 70-75. Not too bad either. The Impala is only .4 seconds quicker to 60 than the Avalon, shows you what the extra weight of the V8 does.
There are thousands of happy Avalon owners without trans problems (me being one) and Toyota issued a TSB for a software reflash to correct those having a problem. I believe you will stop hearing about this issue. I hardly would call it a plauge.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Yes it is... Had a guy in a early 90s Honda Civic with a fart can on it try. After he got a good look at the back of the Av at the next light he asked what I did to the engine I said "Bone Stock" he said "Bulls***" I said no really it is!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The interior could hardly be described as "smallish" at 104.5 cubic feet. The trunk adds another 18.6 cubic feet. The Avalon trunk, incidentally, is 14.4 cubic feet while the cabin is 106.9 cubic feet. Hence, the total interior space in the Impala SS actually exceeds that in the Avalon.
The SS is a relatively low production model and resale value should hold its own partly on that basis.
City gas mileage is about 16-17 in my particular car. My 28-29 mpg on the highway is at a constant 70 mph on relatively level terrain. I consider this excellent for an engine with 303 hp and 323 ft.-lb. of torque. Incidentally, not only is the SS faster from 0-60 than the Avalon but it also has a higher top end speed at 154 mph.
Consider yourself fortunate if you have no transmission problems. According to the various enthusiast boards the issue is not uncommon and also involves the new Camry and Lexus 350. The Impala SS transmission (which is a heavier duty iteration compared to the other Impala models) is as smooth as glass and gives instant response when you engage the accelerator. GM is known to build probably the best automatic transmissions in the business. I know I am more than pleased with mine.
I passed on the Buick because it doesn't offer a folding rear seat and even with my discount the Buick is about $5K more.
It returned decent fuel economy ( 19.5 MPG highway and 16 overall ) considering it was lugging almost 3 tons around with the aerodynamics of a brick. It also towed a trailer weighing 10,000 pounds.
In other words, the piston slap is not a big deal.
The all- aluminum pushrod V-8 is not a heavy engine, in fact it weighs less than the supercharged V-6 that it replaced in a number of GM cars. 4 steel cams riding high on a DOHC engine are not the lightest of worlds either.
The Avalon's trunk is a little on the small side, but who counts the trunk in interior volume???????? No one will ever sit back there unless Tony Soprano is driving the car.
My point is sit in the Avalon front and rear and tell me which has more room. I have driven a # of Impalas as rentals, believe me much smaller.
"Torque steer is non-existent unless you drive like a maniac"
I'll admit to having a little fun while driving, but merging onto a busy hghway is hardly driving like a maniac.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The Impala SS is heavier than the Avalon, that weight came from somewhere. Maybe I was wrong to assume the engine. However, any more weight on the front wheels of any of these cars is not a good thing.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
very good but my name is Jimmy Hoffa!
Have also looked at, sat in, but not driven Avalon and Azera. Both were also very nice and comfortable. Only thing did not like about Avalon were crappy NAV system and "door" over the radio. Azera seats were VERY comfortable and had something that I am sure is insignificant to most - a lighted ashtray. LOL but to us few remaining nicotine adicts a pleasant surprise.
Will drive all three next summer before making a decision as I will have to replace my company car (unfortunately they won't give it to me when I retire). The car will be used primarily for road trips and the wife and I will use her '02 Camry (great car) for banging around town.
Uh, I have seen published Azera top speed of in the mid 140's. If it can exceed 149, I believe we would be driving on "Z" rated rather than "V" rated tires.
link title
This info is also posted in a few other car review locations. I have had mine to 140 with plenty to spare.
According to Car and Driver
Azera - 6.5 Sec 1/4 15.2 sec
Avalon - 6.0 sec 1/4 14.6 sec
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
It might just be 'jaymagic' that turns around and sues Hyundai (and Bridgestone) after a tire blow out (if he survives), claiming, of course, that he had no idea that hot coffee might really be hot!
Take a breath, guys!
Well said! IMO any of these cars at 150 is not a good thing, the suspensions are all too soft.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Since I raised the comment originally about "Z" vs. "V" speed rated tires, I agree with "captain2". The manufacturer has a responsibility to equip the vehicle with the appropriate tires. If the Klowns in Korea don't know the law in the US, their ticket to market products here should be pulled.
Frankly, I can't imagine anyone stepping up to an Azera because of 0-60 & quarter mile performance for a heavy 4-door glorified FWD Korean Buick swayler. Those that did, or do are kidding themselves. Buy a 3 yr. old 540 and get your kicks.
On top of all that...bland styling and an extremely UN-inspiring interior.
I've never needed anything more than H-rated tires on any of my vehicles. However, when I switched to 20" wheels, the tires that I got came as V-rated. That doesn't mean I'm going to drive at the max speed rating for those tires.
In-depth research on American vs. Japanese cars has clearly documented that even when an American car starts out at parity in freedom from defects, the Japanese car ages better in later years.
This seems to relate to the Japanese makers' more respectful relationships with suppliers. Major US companies who supply carmakers from both countries have rated Toyota and Honda much, much higher as business partners in industry surveys than they rate the American makers. Some have even said outright that if they are called upon to supply the same part to both, they will give the Japanese carmaker the better-made part.
This behavior is not motivated by treason. Rather, it is because US carmakers typically treat them disrespectfully, disdaining long-term business relationships and squeezing them mercilessly on price. Just for one example, the company that supplied the frame for the Ford Explorer, then the best-selling SUV in America, publicly renounced any interest in continuing to supply it. Their explanation: Ford was lowballing them so badly that it was simply impossible for them to make any money on it.
Extend that episode to the 20,000+ unseen parts you depend on for multi-year reliability during the life of your car, and you'll get some idea why the 3- or 6-month time horizon of JD Power doesn't quite tell the whole story about the incidence of automotive defects.
Now, I've skipped entirely the other question: is "quality" rightly defined as nothing more than the absence of defects? If you sit in, say, a Buick Lucerne and a Lexus ES, do you think the wood and leather are at parity? Most people don't. I would suggest this, too, is a quality issue.
I am also surprised there is no speed limiter. I read an article about a year ago that talked about this and said that since Korean domestic cars do not have limiters, with the Azera being built in Korea, they just didn't put one in. There is apparently no US requirement to do so, certainly Porsches, Ferrari's, etc. are not speed limited.
I didn't get mine for the 0-60 time or top speed, but it certainly did not keep me from getting it. Frankly, the number of airbags, was probably at least as important.
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So Hyundai makes a slightly better version of a Buick than GM does.
...
It's still a large, bloated sedan. Tons of economy and well, nothing at all like a car any of us aspire to actually own someday. It's kind of like hearing two people argue over which flavor of oatmeal is best. Um... I'm heading right over to get me a nice steak, thankyouverymuch...
Well, since not everyone is "made of money" maybe a 30K+ car is something they "aspire to own" I don't know how many times someone has complimented my car ('06 Avalon) and said "wish I could afford that" What you aspire to own is all relative... I would love to have a Lexus LS and maybe one day I will but for now an Avalon will have to do, no different than someone driving an Accent and really wishing they could afford that "Large, bloated sedan" otherwise known as Azera.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The interiors are full of plastic. The doors sound hollow when you close them. They are heavy as well - way WAY over 3000 lbs(closer to 4000 actually). I could be describing a Hyundai, a Buick, a Toyota...
Now, there are a few exceptions. The Lucerne CXS is very nice, and the Avalon is as well(though plainly overpriced). But neither are a Lexus, Infinity, or Mercedes.
Btw, my money, used, would be on a 2002-2003 S430. Amazing car and very affordable, considering.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?paId=237802148
Most go for about $20K, but I picked this as you could easily haggle it down to $25K and it has nearly no miles on it.(of course, if it was me, I'd only buy it in black...)
Azera - 6.5 Sec 1/4 15.2 sec
Doesn't sound right. C&D reached 6.5 in the Sonata 3.3
I'd think the Azera 3.8 at least shaves some with higher power output.
Unless I am horribly mistaken, the Azera also weighs more than the Sonata, which would explain why it isn't faster.
Where I live, a 2002 LS430 w/ 65K miles goes for 28K, so buying a used high-end luxury sedan is certainly an option.
1/4 Mile MPH: 96.010
http://www.dragtimes.com/Hyundai--Azera-Drag-Racing.html
Others would prefer a brand new Azera with "no miles" and the new car warranty.
I think the Azera is faster than the Sonata (unless you're comparing the Azera GLS which has the Sonata 3.3L engine) since the weight to horse power ratio of the 3.8L Azera is less than that of the 3.3L Sonata. For everyday driving the Sonata is pretty darn quick, but the Azera is quicker.
Applying that today:
Honda's on top because of its quality perception, both in studies and in the flesh, and wants to stay there.
Toyota's had its head turned by sales and profit goals and isn't under pressure on quality because of its unimpeachable image, so it's slipped.
The US Big 2.5 can't shake their management heritage, so their long-term reliability will always be suspect.
Hyundai/Kia are on the make and determined to impress. I'm willing to bet their build quality is just as good where it doesn't show. (That's not to say the cars are perfect -- witness the clunk. It's to say they're probably using first-class materials and exerting maximum effort.)
As for the snippy-snippy comments about Korean cars being "oatmeal" nobody would really desire, count me as one exception. I'd love to own and drive an Azera. It's pretty, it's fast, it's well made, and it pampers you like a sultan's bedroom. What more can a commuter ask?
American look to the next big bonus, stock option and so forth. Chrysler just hired the guy fired by Home Depot and given $250 million to leave. He has no experience with automobiles at all.
While the marketing and flash of American advertising does work for a while, eventually people making the second biggest purchases of their lives look for real quality, dependability and reliability.
I have owned Ford and Chrysler products and have friends who have owned the same and GM. They now drive Japanese cars-permanently.
BTW, the maintenance cost on used European cars is about $2,000 annually above regular maintenance from I have been told.
Thats the #'s they got when they last tested it (from their website). There are so variables when they do 0-60 and 1/4 miles that it could easily be a few tenths off from test to test.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
You are right that there are a # of deals in the used car market, however I wouldn't touch a 5 year old S430 with a ten foot pole. There are so many electronic gizmos in that thing I feel it would nickle and dime you to death. The last thing I want is a 18 - 20K car loan on a five year old out of warranty vehicle. I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.
BTW a coworker has an '05 or '06 S430 4matic. He rode in my Avalon and said the ride was everybit as good. I said nah, can't be. So he let me take it for a spin. Not that much different (little more controlled and quieter). However, that vehicle had the nicest leather I have ever felt and the attention to detail is amazing. As it should for 85K.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
And, yes, a used luxury car without the nav and other nonsense can be a fantastic car. Even used, it drives, handles, and will be a LOT better to drive than a typical "sedan".
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I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.
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this is like saying you could buy a used 911 or a new Miata. There's a whole level that you gain with the better used car that isn't there with the new budget car. It's not just a matter of pure economics.
As far as JDP's opinion of things go - it is a 'sponsored' award and therefore very suspect in that it ALWAYS seems to end up with those manufacturers (Hyundai,GM, and Ford, for example) that seem to NEED it the most and will pay for the use of the JDP 'trophy' in advertising campaigns etc. Amazing that folks pay any attention to it anymore!
I would be scared financing a car with 65,000 miles on it because I would have to spread it out over 4 or 5 years.
Insiders are reporting that Hyundai will upgrade the present 3.8 V6 to 300hp.
The 4.6 V8 is being reported to crank out 365hp.
My impression is that JD Power does legitimate surveys. From there, they let the automakers cherry-pick the outcomes, such as creating a category of one so the carmaker can advertise "Most Appealing Entry-Level Small Midsize Wagon with Mudflaps." But at least this doesn't do an injustice to other entry-level small midsize wagons with mudflaps.
A far worse offender is Motor Trend's Car of the Year, the award infamous for being outright bought by ad pages. How else did the molten Chevy Caprice taxicab win? I'm surprised the trophy isn't a pair of calipers with a wad of 20's stuffed in the middle.
And worst of all in my book is the "Consumers Digest Best Buy." It's not only an award that's routinely bought, but its name deliberately leeches off the credibility of the actually credible Consumer Reports (and even the pretty decent Consumer Guide). I wish CU could sue the pants off these guys, and I'm sure they're perpetually seething that they can't. GM, naturally, sells a ton of these "winners."
It is beyond me how JDP (and the car mags, Consumer Digesat and others you mention) can claim impartiality, when they know, for example, that should they give one of those little trophies to the Taurus that Ford will put it in TV ads in a NY minute, while Toyota/Honda/Nissan probably won't - if only because those particular mfgrs have customers that expect it.