Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

dborth · August 2007

re 2899 ; "The V6 will have the second generation of Lambda with increased hp (in this case around 300 horses) and increased fuel economy."

Isn't that an oxymoron.

joe97 · August 2007

more like technology advancement.

allmet33 · August 2007

"The doors sound hollow when you close them."

Actually...the doors on the Azera do NOT sound hollow at all when you close them. Something I was quite impressed with when I took my initial test drive. When I went to replace the stock door speakers, I found out why...a very nice aluminum panel sits behind the door panel. No holes in it except for where the speaker is mounted. All window components are attached to the panel for a solid build.

Sure...you can pick up a used S430, then get ready to pay out the nose for preventive maintenance on it! :P

allmet33 · August 2007

Makigrl...I'm definitely a fan of Hyundai at this point, but right now...the Genesis has to hit the showrooms before anyone can really get too excited about it. I mean...the Azera definitely would lead those of us that know about them, to truly anticipate the Genesis for all it has to offer, but until it actually shows up...all we can do is hope that the Azera really is a building block for Hyundai to do bigger and better things.

I for one, am anxiously awaiting the first glimpse of the new Genesis when Hyundai finally decides to drop it on us.

thegraduate · August 2007

Frankly, the number of airbags, was probably at least as important.

If you aren't in North America, I will retract my statement (assuming you live on an autobahn with unrestricted speed), but if you regularly take a softly sprung vehicle to twice-legal speeds, airbags (and some common sense) should be on the top of your shopping list IMO.

Can I ask WHY you would go 140 in a softly sprung car on a road made for speeds that are likely half that? I've just gotta know.

thegraduate · August 2007

Please note, I do not engage in such activity to often, however I feel it necessary for the sake of knowing my car. I do this with every car I've owned, push it to find out just what it's capable of doing. You never know when you'll need to push it and there's nothing wrong with knowing in advance just how far you can.

How often do you find it necessary to go 120+ MPH?

I may be a STRANGE teenager (I'll be 20 in less than 2 weeks), but I've never found the NEED to go over even 100 MPH, much less 140.

The only time I've ever gone faster than was probably intelligent was when my great grandmother had a heart attack and I rushed to the hospital across town from school. I did 95 in a 60/70 (it goes back and forth) with my flashers on. It isn't because the car wouldn't go faster, because my car is limited to 130 MPH according to Motor Trend.

My great-grandmother is still living (95 years old and still going strong!!).

Let me ask, have you ever blown a tire at 130 MPH? I'm guessing no, since you are here to tell about it.

I'm not riding your case, I just can't fathom "needing" to know that my car can go 140 MPH, since there aren't but a handful of US roads capable of safely handling a car going anywhere near that fast.

thegraduate · August 2007

Has anybody out there driven the new Taurus?

Thoughts/feelings about this car?

My grandmother is looking at them and I'd like to know some things to look for good and bad before going into a test drive with her.

allmet33 · August 2007

Like I said, I push every car I own and I've owned about 9 different cars...do the math.

If you're scared...get a big wheel! LOL

Actually...driving that fast because your grandmother is having a heart attack is much less intelligent than you think. You're driving off of emotion and you're not thinking clearly. Trust me...I'd rather do it with a clear thinking of what it is I'm doing.

Nope...never blown a tire at that speed. I make sure I always keep good rubber on my wheels. If I know my tread is weearing, I definitely don't engage in such activity.

What I base as a need for me, may not be a need for you. We are two different drivers my friend. You stick to what you know and I'll keep on with what I know...hasn't failed me yet!

Actually...there are plenty of roads that can safely handle a car going that fast, the problem is the number of drivers that can't handle going that fast.

captain2 · August 2007

That's what I am hearing. The V6 will have the second generation of Lambda with increased hp (in this case around 300 horses) and increased fuel economy.
You Hyundai guys are sounding more and more like you all come from Dearborn - expressions like 'that's what I hear' it 'will do this or that' and/or continually living in the 'next generation'. Doing as you suggest - same (or better) HP with improved FE should require some rather substantial changes in valvetrain technology, fuel control, computer and tranny control programming - none of which I've ever seen from Hyundai - engines not noted historically for either HP or FE, never mind both. Not that it can't be done - witness what Toyota did with the 2GR a few years ago. 'Promises, promises' or put another way - 'show me the money'.

allmet33 · August 2007

The funny thing is...the FE is really not THAT bad in the Azera. It's not the greatest, but it sure could be worse. Between that and the soft suspension...those are really the only knocks against the Azera. Two out of how many? I like those odds!

Who knows, maybe the Genesis will have all of that to show the world that they can truly compete!

captain2 · August 2007

allmet - suggest to you that 'Korean' FE issues have at least as much to do with weight as it does with what's under the hoods. It takes some engineering, lighter (more costly) materials, and money to build light AND well.

allmet33 · August 2007

Build lighter...I'm sure they can do. Build better...oh, it's already built well.

I'm not saying the FE can't be better, I'm just saying it's not as piss poor as some make it seem. Funny, the Maxima's FE is pretty similar in numbers and yet...nobody is making a fuss about it.

vic10 · August 2007

"My grandmother is looking at them...."

That meant to be a critique of the car???

Didn't drive the Taurus but rented the 500 for a business trip. Lots of glass so good visibility. Seats comfortable but narrow (my size 34 filled them). Not much foot room it seemed. Depending on what Gram is use to driving, this could be a negative: In spite of the visibility, the car felt--i.e. maneuverability--like a big, rather clumsy vehicle, and that is relative to my 300C. If Gram is use to Crown Vic's or maybe a pickup, no problem....

jaymagic · August 2007

The first thing to note is that many use the term "softly sprung" to mean the Azera cannot safely handle higher speeds, i.e. 100+. I would not agree with that. I think the suspension is not what you would want for a road course, but on an Interstate (Colo has a 75mph speed limit) type road or other smooth generally straight road the suspension seemed to easily handle 100+ speeds. It was very stable at 140, but again, this was a straight smooth road. I was not feeling the "float" as some call it, and that I have felt in other cars.

As to why -- Simple, I wanted to get some idea of its high speed capability, I was not trying to get to its top speed or go over the rating of the tires -- Again, a one time thing (at least in the US). BTW, when the interstate highway system was first built back in the 50's, it was designed to handle speeds of at least 80mph, except where posted less. This was with 1950's tires, suspensions, and brakes. In fact, the speed limit on I-80, in Nebraska, used to be 80mph, back in the 60's. Of course, this was also when Nevada had NO set upper speed limit. Same with Montana. So, the idea that many roads at least in the West weren't designed for at least half of 140 is simply not accurate. 100+mph driving was not uncommon back in the late 60's and early 70's on certain routes and in certain states. Perhaps some of the older drivers on this forum who ever made the LA to Vegas run have some stories to tell about speeds they drove or encountered.

bruneau1 · August 2007

I have driven the new Taurus three times. It's a transformed vehicle with not only more power but much improved noise, vibration, harshness. Its ride is cushy. It's no sport sedan, rather more like a Ford Avalon. I will buy one this year. . AS FOR THE SPEEDERS, i think you are quite silly and dangerous.

thegraduate · August 2007

Well, some of my grandmother's previous cars are her current 2002 Accord, a '96 Accord, '91 Civic, '84 LTD (the Fairmont based sedan), a Granada, and a Torino.

The Taurus felt huge to me just sitting in it, but I never got in the driver's seat, just the passenger. I've actually heard good things about this car as far as ride, power, and the overall experience - very smooth and cushy seems to be the theme, which would be good.

cobrazera · August 2007

same (or better) HP with improved FE should require some rather substantial changes in valvetrain technology, fuel control, computer and tranny control programming
I agree that some tranny control programming could help.
I am very happy with my Azera, and the biggest gripe I have with the car is its inability to give a part throttle downshift when accelerating off the ramp and onto the freeway. They probably programmed the tranny to hold higher gears for economy, but the economy goes down the tubes when I have to floor it to get a downshift.
Yeah, I know it has a very nice autostick, but the car is so quiet, you can't hear the engine to qauge RPM and must take your eyes off the road to see what gear it's in. That all takes too much time.
As far as Hyundai not being noted for engine technology, neither is Cadillac, but their direct injection version of the 3.6 engine has about 40 HP more than the standard motor and is capable of higher fuel economy due to its higher compression ratio - so it can be done.

joe97 · August 2007

The phrase you are looking for is DI, as in direct injection. I am not telling you something that hasn't been done before - as a matter of fact, Toyota's 2GR you brought up is the perfect example, its 2GR-FSE utilizes DI.

Believe what you want to believe, but this isn't an opinion or someone's fantasy. You will see a 3.8L V6 300hp with good F/E numbers in a Hyundai application.

allmet33 · August 2007

So...why don't you just switch it over to manual mode when making your grand entrances onto the highway??? You can hold a lower gear for a longer period to make sure the power doesn't drop off should you need to punch it. I think the gearing would be a little different if it didn't have the Shiftronic feature.

As for what gear it's in...it only takes a nanosecond to peek at the dash, but I go by feel now that I've been driving it for more than a year.

plekto · August 2007

Actually, THE biggest improvement in engines in the last 50 years will be electronic valve control(EVC). They will replace the entire top end of the engine with servo-controlled valves. No flywheel, timing chain/belt, no lifters, no camshaft! All of that is just GONE. In fact, most of what you put oil into a car for won't be there, or required, which will increase reliability as well.

They expect it to increase power and significantly reduce cost and complexity in engine designs.

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/application.jsp?nodeId=02Wcbf56hRCrcd

cobrazera · August 2007

Why should using Shiftronic be necessary? It's an automatic transmission, and as such should do partial throttle downshifts - just reprogram the computer.

tjc78 · August 2007

"just reprogram the computer"

What ever happened to just adjusting the linkage? Does the Azera have an adaptive trans like the Avalon? Just a hunch you may need to be a little heavier footed with it, in order to "teach" it to downshift faster. Is anyone else over in the Azera forum complaining? There may be a software fix for it. Toyota issued one for those experiencing the hesitation problem in the Avalon.

tjc78 · August 2007

"witness what Toyota did with the 2GR a few years ago"

Its funny you say that, when I first saw the specs on the '05 Avalon I thought, nice, 280 HP (268 now) but FE will suffer. Then I saw the #'s Toyota was claiming I thought how the heck are they getting 70 more HP in a bigger car to get better mileage? Well I am happy to report that my '03 Avalon returned 19 MPG average and my '06 is now getting 22 with the same driving pattern. I know neither # is stellar but I do a lot of sitting in traffic.

alexstore · August 2007

hmm. if u were replacing stock speakers, it means that they actually sound horrible. I have bose in my car and have no plan on replacing stock 320 watt great Bose sound system. even at high volume,they sound great and clear.

alexstore · August 2007

well at the same time maxima beats Azera in 0-60 and many other tests. IN addition Maxima as well as Avalon do have superior engines over 3.8 in Azera. With Less displacement, they produce similar Hp and more importantly Torque in the same or lower ranges. Maxima is build for a different buyer than Azera. It is for a person , who enjoys performance, but wants 4 door large and comfortable vehicle with all luxury items that one needs like Navigation, standard power adjustable steering wheel. Modifications on Maxima will not look out of place as it is on Azera.
BTW 2009 model year maxima is moving closer to MB CLS whose appearance I love( have you seen coupe based 4 door BMW). BTW younger buyers like coupes and Maxima even now is simply coupe based vehicle. This is basically the reason why passenger volume in MAxima is smaller than in Azera. CD in MAx is also smaller than in Azera.

tjc78 · August 2007

Without starting an audio debate in the wrong fourm. NO stock system in any car can compete with the aftermarket. Car audio is limited only by your imagination and budget. I have had systems in previous cars that blow away the factory JBL in my Avalon (which is quite good BTW), but since I have leased my last 3 cars I haven't done any aftermarket audio in a while except for the Ipod interface in my Av.

allmet33 · August 2007

Alexstore...are you always this dense? Replacing a factory system doesn't automatically mean it sounds horrible. It means that it doesn't perform up to the standards that I personally have.

The stock Infinty system sounds very, very good...the sound is clear and natural. However, I wanted more sound control from my head unit, so I replaced it. In doing so...I wanted to go with speakers that were more efficient and could handle more power as I do like to crank my music when I'm on the highway. Just so you know, I only replaced the speakers in the door with some coaxial 6.5 Infinity Kappas. I left the factory center channel, tweeters and subwoofer intact.

Some folks complain that the center channel speaker is too prominent in the sound stage. By replacing the door speakers, I was able to even that out and now it sounds like the music is spread across the front of the car with the vocals coming from in front of you...just how it should be.

As far as stock systems go, the one in the Azera is one of the better ones I've heard...especially for the price point of the car. Don't think that just because I tweaked it, that it was horrible...I just like more for my listening enjoyment.

As far as your Bose system goes, I've heard the ones in the Maximas and Altimas...let's just say I'm not impressed. The good Bose systems are in the higher end cars and the Maxima isn't one of them. Now this is just my opinion, so don't get your panties twisted. That particular Bose system may be just enough for your musical tastes, and that's fine. By all means...enjoy it.

allmet33 · August 2007

"Why should using Shiftronic be necessary?"

Because it's an automatic transmission with a manual mode. It is nothing for me to switch over to manual and downshift when I want for certain manuvers. I've never driven an automatic that made any downshift like a manual transmission. Under normal driving conditions, the Azera in auto mode drives wonderfully. It's not a sports sedan, so it's not programmed to shift like one. If you want more aggressive shifting, it's available in manual mode. Is it really THAT hard?

vic10 · August 2007

Why anyone would waste money on even a premium sound system for a car is beyond me. Unless you like to sit in your car in a parking lot to listen to music, you're going to have road noise and wind noise and engine/transmission noise, and the sound of that semi trying to pass you, and if you're the type that thinks aftermarket boomers are great, you probably have a cell phone or bluetooth in one ear. So why bother? If you want to listen to great music, stay at home where you can pay attention to the sound. Don't listen to it in your car where you should be paying attention to, dare I say it, driving?

allmet33 · August 2007

A premium sound system has a better chance of overcoming road noise than a standard sound system. Let me guess...you've never had the pleasure of having a truly great sound system in a car, have you? :P

Anyway, anyone that can't enjoy music while they are driving are probably challenged when it comes to walking and chewing bubble gum too. :P Does this mean you do housework in dead silence too?

The driving environment should be one that allows the driver to feel comfortable and relaxed behind the wheel. Music soothes the savage beast! Anyway, have you ever tried commuting into work, or taking a long drive to anywhere without ANY music to listen to? I'd go bonkers if I was forced to drive like that. Just so you know...I don't have Bluetooth anything and I intend to keep it that way. However, the Bluetooth earpiece doesn't block out total sound, so music is still audible if someone is wearing one.

You also have a false conception that an aftermarket equates to someone driving down the road blasting nothing but mind numbing bass and going deaf in the process. My friend, a good aftermarket system is provides clear, clean sound along every audible frequency. I don't knock the guys that just want bass to beat the back of their heads, but that's not me...I like to hear everything in my music.

cobrazera · August 2007

There's no hesitation problem, it just won't downshift out of top gear without flooring it. Maybe they would need to rerun the EPA test if they reprogrammed the tranny. This idiosyncrocy ( I won't even call it a problem, or some might misconstrue the usage of that word ) has been noted in previous forums and is not a big deal, it just makes the car less than totally perfect.
I'm not a heavy footed driver, but have had many cars ( GM brands and a Jaguar ); all did part throttle downshifts. If I wanted to manipulate the Shiftronic all the time, I'd have purchased a car with a manual transmission.

tjc78 · August 2007

I'm confused.... (first time ever lol) you mention that the car won't downshift in top gear. So lets say you are going 65 in 5th. You need a small increase in speed, say 5-10 MPH you push the pedal half way and stay in 5th? That just seems wrong to me. Every car I've owned would downshift one gear lower, and off I went.

allmet33 · August 2007

I think his problem is that it actually requires you to push the gas pedal down about half way before the shift actually happens. I know with my Azera, I can cruise in 5th and when I step on the gas, it'll down shift when the pedal goes down about half way. Maybe that's not fast enough for him. Thus, that is why I suggested using the manual mode.

thegraduate · August 2007

Well, it may be a moot point, but put my car into the ring of vehicles that always shift down at least one gear when given half-throttle. Sometimes, two!

(2006 Accord 4-cyl)

chilliwack · August 2007

I think I have experienced the issue you are trying to describe. While going around a clover leaf merge, uphill, the car bogs and stutters a bit and does not downshift to pick up the slack without stepping on the gas. That is one of the only issues I have at this time as well. Just another reason to step on it.

priggly · August 2007

The Bose system in my '06 Impala SS couldn't sound better! I am very pleased with it and I would be the first one to replace stock speakers if they did not sound great.

jlindh · August 2007

I've been told Bose is a four letter word to an audiophile. What do the folks with high-end home systems think of Bose?

I've got a Bose Acoustic Wave on my boat. It's stereo, but definitely not HiFi.

tjc78 · August 2007

"Bose is a four letter word to an audiophile"

Absolutely! Now if B & W, Krell or Mcintosh starts putting systems in cars I'm there.... am I on the wrong forum? lol.

goodegg · August 2007

I think you meant to say B & O. Right? No?

tjc78 · August 2007

No, I meant B&W (Bowers and Wilkins) B&O is cool too though!

allmet33 · August 2007

You definitely can't compare a Bose home system to a Bose car system. The home systems are phenomenal to say the least. The car systems...it really depends on the car. I've heard some that sound terrific, and I've heard some that don't sound any better than other premium sound systems found in other makes. The auto environment is one of the hardest to create a sensational sound system in.

vic10 · August 2007

"The biggest improvement...electronic valve control...."

Excellent! A giant ON and OFF switch. Electronics are great. But there's no warning of impending doom. Just an instant "off". After reading of all the electronic bugs on Lucerne, 300, DTS sites, not sure this geezer is ready to applaud the arrival of this improvement....

vic10 · August 2007

My only "premium" auto audio was the late 1980's GM Bose system in my Riviera. Sounded wonderful at a stop. No argument. But it wasn't worth the $1000.00 once I got above 30 mph.

Still think driving is not the place to "hear everything in my music" (and probably the only way to do that in a car is by using earphones, which are illegal in some states). If I want to listen to all the nuances of a piece of music, I'll say at home and turn on my Musical Fidelity electronics and listen to the sounds coming from my luscious Dynaudio towers....

P.S. If you equate the attention needed to drive safely with the attention needed to clean a house, please advise what roads you routinely drive on SO I CAN AVOID THEM....

plekto · August 2007

First off - EDMUNDS - GET A QUOTE BUTTON!!!!!

****
"The biggest improvement...electronic valve control...."

Excellent! A giant ON and OFF switch. Electronics are great. But there's no warning of impending doom. Just an instant "off". After reading of all the electronic bugs on Lucerne, 300, DTS sites, not sure this geezer is ready to applaud the arrival of this improvement....
****

As opposed to needing valve adjustments, not knowing the exact state of the valves(sensor goes bad - trips the computer - "service engine - valve servo failure" - other cylinders work fine), timing belts going bad, timing sensors failing, cams getting ground off...

The only thing valves serve to do is regulate the airflow in and out of the engine. They *should* be electronic or some sort of computer controlled valve. All of the rest of the top end of a car was a mechanical kludge because cars lacked the technology for a hundred years to make a proper electronic/electro-mechanical valve system.

And it will all be gone. Imagine an engine with an intake, a MAF, and then 4-6 hoses or a metal intake going straight into the engine.(module it bolts or hooks into). Cylinders right below. The entire top end of the engine is gone.

allmet33 · August 2007

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...1980's....2000's? Trust me, the sound systems of today are much, much...MUCH better than the older ones. Now it's starting to sound like you were bitter and never got over it! *snicker* Well...I paid whatever for the car and it came with the upgraded system and then I turned around and poured another $700 in aftermarket audio equipment to be truly happy with the sound.

Obviously, you've never enjoyed a well executed sound system in a car to appreciate just how nice it is to enjoy full bodied sound while safely motoring down the highway. It doesn't have to be cranked up way past loud to enjoy it either. I can have the volume on 5 (out of 30) and hear my music, still hear what's going on around me outside of my car and...carry on a conversation if I want. On the highway with the windows down...I can turn the volum up to 10 and again...hear every note from the highs to the lows, oh yes...and STILL be able to hear what's going on outside. Trust me, my music enjoyment does NOT interfere with my driving.

The equation had nothing to do with safely driving as opposed to cleaning a house, it was directed more at your lacking ability to successfully multi-task. Oh yeah, and there was an article in the Washington Post a month or so ago where they talked about drivers that listen to familiar music are more likely to pay attention to the road and less likely to have accidents because they are relaxed and attentive.

Do you wear a helmet and leathers when you drive as well? LMAO

allmet33 · August 2007

Actually Cobrazera...I was driving today at about 70 mph, pushed the gas pedal maybe 1/4 of the way down and it down shifted for me with no problem. I think mashing it down actually takes it down to 3rd gear for situations like passing and merging, but for simply picking up speed, it dips down to 4th with no problem...at least in my Azera.

Maybe this issue has something to do with the wide-open throttle shift TSB that came out for the '06 Azeras. Not sure if this issue afflicted the '07's or not. Maybe those that seem to have a shifting issue can take it in to a dealer and have them re-program the tranny. However, most need to know that it's and adaptive transmission, so it learns based on how you drive. So maybe you need to drive a bit more aggressively during the learning period so it will shift more like you want.

alexstore · August 2007

Please have discussions about Azera transmission switched to Azera's Maintenance and Repair forums. This forum is about Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison and not vehicle specific problems.

allmet33 · August 2007

As if nobody else ever gets a bit off topic from time to time!

Alexstore...it's not a maintenace or repair issue. Instead of complaining about a thread...start a new one that we can all contribute to.

pat · August 2007

Actually, the italics and/or the bold buttons work just fine as a "quote button" for me. Either offsets the quote from the reply very nicely. You can submit a suggestion through the Help link at the bottom of the page if you'd like.

pat · August 2007

Yes, that's the thing to do - start a new line of conversation.

However, if those who want to talk specific vehicle problems would seek out the most appropriate place that would be helpful. Not only to this topic but also to anyone seeking that sort of information in the future - they're not going to look here for it.

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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