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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Not at all. My 2003 Avalon had 210 HP, my '06 has 268 and does better all the way around by at least 2-3 MPG. The '06 is also a slightly larger vehicle too. All has to do with engine design, more computer controls, and 5/6 speed trannys.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Isn't MPG for cars going down these days because people want more power now. 10 Years ago, a large sedan had 200 hp and i don't know MPG but now, they have around 250 hp or even more.

    I don't see MPG going down, actually. Wondering what cars you are talking about?

    1997 Lumina - dohc V6 3.4L 210hp 4speed: 17/26 MPG

    1997 Taurus - dohc V8 3.4L 235hp 4speed: 17/26 MPG

    2008 Impala - ohv V6 3.9L 233hp 4speed: 18/28 MPG

    2008 Taurus - dohc V6 3.5L 260hp 4speed: 18/28 MPG

    Yes, I used the V8 Taurus, but mileage is better, and power is better than the top engine in the Taurus, even the V8.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Thank you Pat! There is a forum for real world MPG. Also, there are far too many variables involved in what each of us gets.
    BTW, the EPA has now changed the way they compute MPG and surprisingly, it is now very close to what Consumer Reports shows as MPG's. CR is still the most reliable source for real world MPG's. They get a standard car off the lot, keep it for three months or so, do all types of tests and then let their employees drive it on a daily, real world basis for a few months.
  • tgkoenigseggtgkoenigsegg Member Posts: 52
    I was talking about other cars.
    '98 VW Passat V6 20/29 MPG
    '07 VW Passat V6 18/26 MPG

    '98 LeSabre 3.8 19/30 MPG
    '07 Lacrosse 3.6 19/27 MPG
    Those have higher horsepower and get lower MPG
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The 1998 Passat was a very small car relative to vehicles like the ones in this discussion. It was smaller inside than the '98 Accord and Camry, much less the Avalon. Jumping in size that large makes that argument sort-of hard to make, don't you agree?

    The Buick is right, though. The old (and I mean they are OLD) 3.8L had low horses, decent torque, and an extremely tall gearing which gave them good mileage. As a motor, it just isn't compeititve anymore though. Less than 200 horses from nearly 4 Liters of displacement is really bad.
  • tgkoenigseggtgkoenigsegg Member Posts: 52
    Yeah I got it now because the Passat has grown a lot in size and I believe that the current Jetta is a big as the '98 Passat
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Real world gas mileage for sedans

    Click on it. Post your mileage. Add it to your tracked discussions.

    :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sorry if I helped take us off topic... I thought it kind of fit in with the "comparison" part of things. :blush:
  • dh1870dh1870 Member Posts: 2
    I just took a test drive in the Lucerne and was impressed with the ride. I first drove a cxs with v8 and bucket seats,and the sport suspension. I then drove a stripped cx with the v6 and a bench seat. The v6 had plenty of power for me. It's the same engine that was in my 1985 century t-type. I thought moving such a bigger car would be a problem, but it was enough for me. The bench seat was not comfortable for me, and the buckets were not much better, although with a little adjusting maybe I could get used to it. The biggest problem I had with the car, and it's probably a deal killer was the huge blind spot caused by the A pillar for the windshield. While making a left turn there were cars I couldn't see. The car was also a little low for me. I preferred the standard suspension to the harder sport suspension, but isn't that what we buy Buicks for? :blush:
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Buick is trying hard to change its image, so I think the future will yield slightly firmer riding better handling cars. I will say that the Lucerne is nice but, why would you want one with the 3.8 when you can get the Avalon or Azera that has more power with the same or better MPG. I would give them both a ride. I think you will be impressed. The Azera is a great value (I think some rebates right now too) while the Avalon can get pricey. I have an '06 Avalon XLS that has been flawless in 14K miles and feel it is a good balance of ride, power, and handling (no sports sedan though). It stickered for 34K with most of the bells and whistles, the Limited can get to 38K with everything.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > why would you want one with the 3.8 when you can get the

    The Lucerne has the Northstar V8 available in two of the three models if you believe the 3800 isn't powerful enough for your driving needs. The three models have three different handling feels also. You can't stereotype all three from the 3800 CX which replaces the base LeSabre level cars.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    IMO there is absolutely no reason to buy a V8 when the other engines in this class (2GR, VQ, Hyundai 3.8) give you essentially the same power with better MPG. Tell me this... why won't GM put the 3.6 six speed tranny in this car??? The smaller cheaper LaCrosse has it. I've said this before, the Lucerne is a very nice automobile and maybe GM's nicest looking sedan... but get rid of the 3.8 its ancient, rough and underpowered. I just can't change my feelings on this and couldn't buy a 2007 model year car that had the same running gear as my 98 Olds 88.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Probably because the Northstar looks mighty weak next to the 3.6L V6. 2 Extra cylinders and an extra liter of displacement buys what, 15 horsepower? Nobody would buy the V8!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Good point, they would need to put the 292HP version from Caddy in. It will be in the "Super" coming out soon. The 3.6 could be standard and then the V8 could be an option in the CXS and standard on the Super. They are losing people on an otherwise nice car because of powertrain options. I know there are many people that pray to the God known as the 3800... but its time has passed.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    There's a substantial difference in torque at 2000-2500, e.g. for the Northstar even in the Lucerne version.

    As for your comments about the 3800, I find it's very competent. I don't dragrace. I don't do hotrodding around corners. To each his own, but I find it nicely competent and would replace my current one with a 3800 Series II or Series III if the need arises.

    3.6 LaCrosse

    image

    Northstar Lucerne

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tgkoenigseggtgkoenigsegg Member Posts: 52
    There is no point buying that Lucerene because the base price would be $37K. They need to at least but the 4.6L V8 320 hp engine from the new STS and XLR that comes with a 6 Speed Auto.
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    Drove the 3800 for several years in a work Bonneville - acceleration was fine but certainly a bit rough.

    Have driven both the CXL with the V6 and the CXS V8 - power good for both, but the smooth powered acceleration of the V8 was much better for me and I liked the handling better.

    Have driven Honda, Toyota, etc. updated V6 and certainly they are more than sufficiently powered and I suspect in a race would run rings around the V8 Buick. But of course, these are not designed for hot-rod enthusiasts.

    For many of us that grew up with V8's there is something about that effortless smooth torque that a V6 cannot match. This, of course, is an "old school" thing and I can fully understand why much of the younger crowd thinks we are nuts.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "there is something about that effortless smooth torque that a V6 cannot match"

    I know what you are saying and have driven my share of "old school" autos mostly full size Fords. Anyway, the newer V6's are so smooth you can't usually tell what RPM they are at anyway. My point continues to be if you can get almost equal power from a smaller more efficient motor that is the way to go, especially in a FWD.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "There is no point buying that Lucerene because the base price would be $37K. "

    That price is inline with the Avalon Limited and a bargain compared to some of the Luxury nameplates Buick wants to go after.

    I'll give you one better, the Lacrosse Super will get the 5.3L from the Impala SS and will be cheaper than the Lucerne what sense does that make? I know that from an engineering standpoint it makes sense (same platform) but how do you market that? The flagship car gets a lesser motor.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    "Anyway, the newer V6's are so smooth you can't usually tell what RPM they are at anyway. My point continues to be if you can get almost equal power from a smaller more efficient motor that is the way to go, especially in a FWD."

    Rest assured that I have no basis to argue the smoothness of the 6 vs. the 8 - just a matter of personal preference.

    As far as FWD goes, I have found more FWD torque problems on the wife's 4 cyl Camry than on the V8 Buick. After all, GM has been making large FWD cars for many years and they seem to have that issue solved.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The graphs above show a lot, though.

    4400rpm for both engines. This is reasonably the most anyone will push their car, ever, even during really hard launches. 3400 is actually more reasonable.(they used to rate the engines at 3800rpm a decade ago, which is more realistic).

    V6: 3000rpm - 125HP/225lb-ft.
    4400rpm - 180HP/220lb-ft.

    V8: 3000rpm - 150HP/270lb-ft.
    4000rom - 250HP/295lb-ft.

    And this isn't the miserable 3.8L. Closer to 100HP at 3000rpm - it's a very sluggish engine at low RPMs, especially when pulling as heavy a vehicle as the Lucerne.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Just read in latest Autoweek that 2008 Accord will be considered a large sedan. Should/could the 08 Accord be added to this board? It will certainly be more mainstream in sales volume than any car listed in the heading of this board.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's see how it goes. A day or two ago I said let's leave in the Midsize Sedans discussion because that's where its main competitors are. I don't want to add it here, too, at least not now.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It would make sense as Honda has no large sedan in it's stable. The Accord would compete with the Avalon, Azera, Maxima, etc. and the the Civic would step up to compete with the Sonata, Camry, Altima and the likes.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Uh...not really.

    Accord will remain Honda's entry in the midsize sedan class but with the larger interior it can steal some sales away from Avalon, Altima and Azera.

    Civic will still be Honda's entry in compact sedans.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Leave the Accord where it is... its too funny reading the Fusion VS Accord war that goes on in the midsize comparo. When is Honda going to come out with an answer to the Avalon and Azera? Seems to me they are missing out. The RL is really priced too high to compete with Av/Azera (IMO).

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Uhhhhh...really, it's the interior space that determines what class a vehicle goes into.

    So how can you state that it will remain their mid-size entry when someone else is stating it will be considered a large sedan for 2008???

    Have you noticed, the Civic has been getting bigger and bigger with each passing model year? Eventually...the Fit will grown from sub-compact to compact.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Exactly why they need to bump the Accord up. Don't see why it couldn't be a worthy competitor in the large sedan class.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yes, the Civic has grown but so have its competitors. It's not like Civic is the only one in the compact sedan category getting larger, everybody is. Don't forget technically speaking Sonata is a large car too, wouldn't that make Azera kind of irrelevant? Also, Accord is a large car only when it's without the moonroof, with the moonroof Accord is again a midsizer.

    Today's compact sedan (class) is yesterday's midsizer (size) and today's sub-compact (class) is 10 years ago's compact (size). This is the trend throughout the auto industry, not just Honda.

    With Accord big enough to be a large car but also not that big to be excluded totally from midsize it gives Honda a weapon to attack both markets. Honda really doesn't need a dedicated large sedan because 1. the market is really not growing and is small compare to midsize and compact 2. Honda is really not that big enough to support another low volume sedan in its lineup. I can see Honda to field a Genesis competitor in the future with SH-AWD but then that'll make the Acura TL/RL totally pointless.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I'm not denying the fact that other makes have growing compacts, but Honda is the only one without a large sedan model. By the way, have you seen the Sentra or the Corrolla lately? Don't look much bigger than previous models. Civic...oh, it's definitely larger than the previous model.

    Actually, it was pointed out that the Sonata isn't a large sedan. It was brought up in here before and shot down because someone pointed something out about something or other, can't remember exactly what it was.

    Azera...irrelevant? Yeah, right! The Sonata can't touch the Azera!

    Again, Honda is the only one without a legitimate large sedan competitor. Honestly, it sounds like this talk is making some folks nervous!

    I say...either push the Accord up into the large sedan class, or...use the RL and make a Honda equivalent to compete in that class. Either way, Honda will be competing eventually.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    I don't know about you guys but I am not giving up my Avalon for an Accord no matter what the car is considered. It is still too small. The large car market should be growing with people getting out of Suburbans and Expeditions but maybe they are just going to crossovers (AKA minivans with big tires.)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Uh...

    The current Corolla is a 6-year-old design, I'll bet you when the new one comes next year it'll get considerably larger as well (BTW, the current one is about the same size as Civic). What about Elantra, I think it gets pretty big as well. Actually it's bigger than the current Civic in every category.

    Elantra and Civic

    So does that mean the Elantra is ready to take on Camry, Altima and its own big bro Sonata?

    According to EPA's figure, if the '08 Accord is a large car then the Sonata is as well, no matter how you spin it.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I only pointed out a fact. You may be right, it might be bigger, then again...it really hasn't grown in size much the past couple model years.

    Yes, it is bigger than the Civic, but not big enough to go into mid size sedan territory.

    No...the Sonata will remain the competitor to the Camry. You're really going too deep with all of it. I only said that it would make sense for Honda to push the Accord up so that it would finally have a competitor. That being said, the Civic could be pushed up to compete with the Camry, Sonata and Altima.

    Maybe, you need to have a talk with the EPA. ;)
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    "According to EPA's figure, if the '08 Accord is a large car then the Sonata is as well, no matter how you spin it."

    Correct, especially since the Sonata is 1.5 cu ft bigger than the Accord.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    there is something about that effortless smooth torque that a V6 cannot match.

    You are exactly correct. The torque in my '06 Impala SS is fabulous. Nothing can touch it for extreme smoothness combined with awesome power, certainly not any six cylinder motor!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Ummm, no. Just as the Sonata was never added here, the Accord shouldn't either. No offense to either fine automobiles.

    Just for the record, the Sonata became a large car per EPA in Q1 2005, and the Accord in Q3 2007. Which car will be next? Mazda6 is next but I don't think it will get there. Which car is up for redesign after Mazda6?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I agree and was just pointing out that there are other mid-sizers considered large by EPA.

    On the other hand, some eyes might be opened if there were a comparison of the Accord & Azera; car for car, spec for spec, feature for feature and dollar for dollar in real world money.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I don't know how but Hyundai uses interior volume + trunk space extremely well:

    Accent: compact per EPA / subcompact in competing class
    Elantra: midsize per EPA / compact in competing class
    Sonata: large per EPA / midsize in competing class

    I don't think there is another lineup which offers the above, and to tie into this forum, despite the Azera being shorter than the Avalon, the interior volume + trunk space is the same IIRC.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Agreed.

    By the way, there are only two midsize currently considered in the large car category per EPA. The Sonata and the new arrival - 08 Accord (louiswei is it true only without sunroof?). I thought the Optima would also share the stage but upon research it is a midsize, smaller than the Sonata, to my surprise. And a sidenote, the Optima is actually more related to the Elantra than the Sonata - something I didn't think it was right until I found out myself in person.

    Back to your regular programming...sorry for the sidetrack...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yes, Joe, it is true. The 2008 Honda Accord can only be considered as a large car without moonroof. With moonroof it goes back to midsize.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually...no, eyes wouldn't be opened because the Accord would trounce the Azera in fuel economy, but the Azera would thoroughly tromp the Accord in price point. Also, the Accord would be smaller than the Azera and lose at least 20 hp to it as well. The Accord would probably come out on top by the fact you can get navigation and probably Bluetooth as well. Other than that...money based on specs and features...the Azera would win out.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The Optima and Sonata shared platforms during the 02-05 model years. They were identicle mechanically and shared a few design cues asthetically. However, the redesign of the Sonata and Kia being headed up by new blood took Kia in the another direction. Now, like you said, the Optima would be better suited in a comparison with the newer Elantras. I was reading an article about the Kia change and how they are looking to establish a unique identity away from Hyundai, even though they are sister companies.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    the Accord would be smaller than the Azera and lose at least 20 hp to it as well.

    When did the Azera get a horsepower bump allmet?

    The Accord you want to compete with the Azera has 268 hp. The Azera's larger engine actually makes less horsepower; 263hp according to Hyundai's own website. Its other engine is a 3.3L, which makes 234hp, or loses to the Accord by 34hp.

    Personally, I don't get all of this hoopla over getting the Accord into the full size discussion.

    The Civic is WAY too small to compete as a midsizer. It has a 1.8L 4-cyl, smallish interior, and is clearly an economy car. The Accord is a midsize in most trim levels (EX, EX-L, EXV6, EX-L V6).

    I know what you've said, "Honda doesn't have an entry in the large car field, but this Accord should be it and we should compare the Civic with Camry etc..." or something along those lines. Well, Honda doesn't have a full size truck, a truck-based SUV, or a full size SUV either. All things that Toyota offers. It doesn't have to have an entry in ALL classes to be competitive, ya know?

    Hyundai has made it this far and only recently added a 3rd-row SUV and a minivan to its lineup. I don't see a V8 powered pickup, or a luxury car-brand coming from Hyundai either. It doesn't mean that they should have their vehicles try to be more than one thing.

    Honda's Accord is made to be competitive with Camry, Altima, etc (anyone compared the power specs with Camry? They're identical!). Let's not make these cars into something they aren't, unless we do it to everyone (Sonata should be in here by in that case).

    That's my personal take on things.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "certainly not any six cylinder motor"

    Nissan's 3.7 V6 is putting out 330 HP and Toyota's 2GR-FSE engine is rated at 315 hp. Both putting out more power and better FE than your 5.3 V8. As for smoothness I'll put the 2GR in any flavor (the tamer 2GR-FE in my Avalon or the FSE from the IS350) against ANY detroit V8.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • 101649101649 Member Posts: 192
    I guess you haven't driven the Chrysler 300 H or the Charger Hemi....They kill the Chevy motors in these cars...Again the Impala is just a police car, and a slow one at best....Out of this class, there are many 6's that are much more powerful and have more touque...
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    "Nissan's 3.7 V6 is putting out 330 HP and Toyota's 2GR-FSE engine is rated at 315 hp. Both putting out more power and better FE than your 5.3 V8. As for smoothness I'll put the 2GR in any flavor (the tamer 2GR-FE in my Avalon or the FSE from the IS350) against ANY detroit V8. "

    I realize you are responding to Priggly and I am not really up on the Chevy SS, but I think we all sometimes start to compare apples and oranges here. The IS350 is RWD, weighs about 3500# and is about 20" shorter than the Lucerne. Also considerably more expensive than the CXS with any comparable equipment.

    Have not yet had a chance to drive the new Avalon, but it is on my short list as the price is certainly more comparable and if it has anything near the quality of my wife's '02 Camry XLE will be a very nice car.

    We all have different needs. Whatever I buy will not be used much on a daily basis as it will be my retirement car and used primarily for longer trips. Ride, quiteness, an easy to use NAV system, a good sound system, and trunk space are all considerations. City FE, not so much as we will continue to use the Camry (only has 45,000 miles on it) for banging around town.

    While I would RATHER buy an American car, it is not so much a "Detroit" vs. Japanese thing as it is getting what will satisfy our needs at a reasonable price. Hell, if I had the money I'd buy a Lexus 430.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    It's not simply a matter of raw HP, the V-8 in the SS is unquestionably smoother than the cars you mentioned. You simply cannot compare a six cylinder motor to an eight.
  • prigglypriggly Member Posts: 642
    FYI I have indeed driven the Chrysler with the Hemi. The small block 5.3l V-8 in the SS lacks nothing in comparison. 0-60 in 5.6 sec and a top end of 154 mph is "slow" in your book? Hardly.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Now, like you said, the Optima would be better suited in a comparison with the newer Elantras.

    Without taking up too much space here and hijacking this forum, I was talking about the mechanical differences between the Sonata and the Optima looking from underneath both cars, which I had the opportunity.
  • 101649101649 Member Posts: 192
    Impala 5.7 at best by the pros., not your everyday hackers
    Chrysler 300 4.9
    Dodge Challenger 4.5
    Dodge Charger 5.0
    new Pontiac G8 (6.0L) 5.7
    Pontiac GP (5.3L) 6.0

    Also FE on the Impala SS is 14/21....

    And as mentioned in another reply, there are many Euro and Asian 6's that are killers....
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