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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I was actually pretty surprised to see they had put the Sonata's V6 in the bottom-line model. Maybe some people were wanting better economy? Or was it just to lower the entry price for an Azera?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I think it was an attempt at both, but with the 3.3 pulling more weight, fuel economy doesn't really improve any. On the other hand, it does make the Azera affordable to some that can afford a top end Sonata.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    According to Edmunds there is only a $300 difference between a base GLS and the SE. What is the point of giving up the extra power (with very small FE gain) for that small a difference? OTOH is the base price of the SE something that will never be seen because of how they are equipped on the dealer lots?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    And this is also old: Mercedes is a German Chevrolet (or Pontiac or Buick etc.) BMW is a German Ford. You're paying for the cache. And you'll continue paying with higher maintenance. Style? Well, there's that gawd-awful bustle back of the BMW. And need I say "i-drive"??
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Honestly....I really don't see an advantage to it. If anything...they really could have just made two trim levels. The SE could have been the one with the 3.3 and offer it in cloth only but with the option of the 3.3 or the 3.6 and then keep the Limited as is.

    You pay an extra $300 to get pretty much the same car, but with 29 more hp.

    I really don't see the GLS being a big seller between the 3 trims available.

    Honestly, one move that would be HIGHLY intriguing...make a sport tuned version of the Sonata and offer it with the 3.8 V-6 that's in the Azera!!! THAT...would be a hot move by Hyundai!!!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    MB is a German Chevy and BMW is a German Ford ONLY IF YOU ARE IN GERMANY. Even the stripped down German domestic models still share the same platforms and powertrains as the upscale models we are getting here. At the end of the day if the REAL Chevy and Ford here are building equal cars as the German Chevy and Ford then why would people pay the premium for BMW and MB?

    Also, why can't the REAL Chevy and Ford achieve the same status as the German Chevy and Ford in the foreign markets?
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    "...why would people pay the premium for BMW and MB?"

    Just the question I've been trying to figure out for the 40 years I've been driving. Probably the same reason why many people would pay extra for French wine when California wines are as good if not better. I think the price jump for the BMW & MB cars came when we stopped calling them "foreign" and started referring to them as "imported".

    Another question: In the late 1990's, the "non-US" manufacturers were coming out with information/navigation screens which performed a variety of functions. The auto mags labeled them "advanced", "hi-tech", "wave of the future". In the mid 1980's Buick had their touch screen dash in the Riviera. Did a lot of what i-Drive does without the "mouse ball" (and of course without navigation). The auto mags referred to it as "a gimmick", "a distraction", "not practical to use". The difference? Imported vs GM. Not the right cache.

    Why can't U.S. cars achieve status in foreign markets? Well, for the longest time they were too big and too thirsty to be anywhere near practical. Besides, ever get into a conversation with a Frenchman or German or Italian and try to convince them that their whatever isn't as good as one made in another country? Ever want to see a war started?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The SE trim is being discontinued for the 2008 model year.

    http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2008_Models/Azera/Press_Release.asp
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...NOW, I'm truly impressed. It's obvious Hyundai has been listening to the complaints. For 2008, they're addressing the suspension (can't wait to see if it's improved) and including an in-dash nav. unit by LG.

    So..with them doing away with the SE, the GLS has an option for leather, and the 3.3 V-6 will be exclusive to the GLS as the 3.8 will be exclusive to the Limited. The scary thing about that is that the fuel economy is almost identical for both powerplants. They were better off just keeping the 3.8 amongst all trim levels.

    Hyundai may have finally been listening, but clearly not thinking...IMO.

    P.S. I see they are still splitting hairs on the speaker count (counting coaxial speakers as separates). Technically speaking, the car would have 10 speakers.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    This all makes sense now. Nice to see that they have NAV available to those that want it.

    "They were better off just keeping the 3.8 amongst all trim levels"

    Little cost cutting perhaps....

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Is it really though??? With the removal of the SE trim line (which it was pointed out there was only a $300 difference between GLS and SE) I'm sure the GLS now will assume the pricing of the SE.

    So, again I ask...is it really worth the move??? I guess it gives those of us that own the Limited some exclusivity in that you can only get the 3.8 if you buy a Limited. However, those in a GLS can laugh at the fact that they are a little slower 0-60 (29 less hp), get the same mileage and pretty much the same car, save for the navigation and a few other amenities.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    In Greenville SC, BMW means Bubba Makes Wheels ;)
    I considered both BMW and MB, but their reliability ratings are terrible. Also, you have to get so many options/packages just to get the standard items on Acura, Infiniti, Azera and Avalon that the prices really skyrocket.
    Regardless of free service and warranty, if you have to take it back again and again, it's a pain.
    Had a Saab Turbo with 36 trips to dealer for warranty work. Also, car out of service for one week at one point. Didn't pay anything, but what a hassle!
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    One of my friends has a BMW 850 - just spent over $15K on some maintenance (new ball joints and rack, brakes, some minor engine work, etc.). Decided he liked this car too much to sell it or trade it in, so he dropped some more money into it. Nice car, I've driven it, and it's worth the extra bucks invested since he originally bought it new.

    I've had two Classic SAABs, neither a Turbo, and still have one as a daily driver - a 1985 SAAB 900. Currently at only 205K miles since purchase in April '85, and nothing other than normal preventive maintenance to the engine - and, still on the original 5-speed transmission with only one clutch replacement. I do all of the mechanical work myself, and buy all parts from thesaabsite.com - helps keep the maintenance costs very low. Still drives like the day I drove it off the SAAB dealer's lot. It's part of the family, but I'm itching to finally make a change!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    I never really understood putting 2 engines in a car with really similar HP. Can't they just cost average the 2 trim levels and pull a few amenities to simplify the assembly line? I am sure its not quite that simple, but it would be nice. I guess they figure an engine upgrade is the easiest way to get people to spend more money. I know it would be for me, for example, I have an Av XLS if the Limited had a bigger engine I know I would have sprung the extra few bucks for it.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • 101649101649 Member Posts: 192
    Just to clarify, the abs, traction control, stability control, etc are not STANDARD on the Impala...They are all OPTIONS...If this is the top of the line Chevy large sedan, I would expect these to be standard and more than just 4 airbags....As stated before, only the SS model will get these "options" as standard NEXT year....It's still a fleet and cop car...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You now...if it was a clear difference, like the Chrysler 300 for instance...

    The base model gets a 2.7 V-6 putting out 190 hp (stop laughing). The next model up (touring) gets the 3.5 V-6 putting out 250 hp. There's a clear and significant difference there. Then when you jump up to the 300C with the hemi V-8 it's another clear jump up to 325 hp.

    In my opinion, Hyundai should have just kept the 3.8 in all trim levels and differentiated the way they have been all along. What would really be sweet is an upgrade to AWD being offered on an Azera.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Then when you jump up to the 300C with the hemi V-8 it's another clear jump up to 325 hp.

    Did Chrysler lower it from 340 hp, or is this with the new SAE testing standards?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    My bad, mistatement on my part. However, the jump to the V-8 really isn't important in what I'm pointing out though. Thanks for the catch! :blush:
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    "I have an Av XLS if the Limited had a bigger engine I know I would have sprung the extra few bucks for it".

    You can't be serious. Nothing added to the Av is "a few extra bucks".
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Just to clarify, it is next year already, and the 2LT ( midlevel of five versions ) Impala and up, including the SS: get ABS, Traction Control, and Stability Control as standard equipment. Check out the GM website. Still no curtain airbags for the backseat, though.
    As far as it being a cop car, the Dodge Charger seems to be taking over that role.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Slowly, but surely...the Charger is taking over as the new cop car. However...just like the Crown Vics and Caprices...the Impala is forever doomed to be like them. Eventually, the Charger will be thrown in with that group, but at least of all of them...the Charger is the best looking & performing cop car to date (outside of the Camaro, Vette's and Mustangs that some jurisdictions have).
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "the Impala is forever doomed to be like them"

    What's funny is if the Impala goes RWD it will most certainly achieve "cop car" status probably fairly quickly. In my neck of the woods, I still see mostly Crown Vics and Expeditions except over the bridge in Philly where the Charger seems to creeping up a lot. The Charger actually makes a cool looking cop car... unless it is behind you with it's lights on :surprise:

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It doesn't have to wait to go to RWD to achieve cop car status, it already has!!! It's the car of choice for the local city police forces as well as sheriff's departments (at least in the DC Metro area).

    Yeah...the Charger does make a cool lookin cop car (ever seen the movie The Island?).
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    I guess you are right in certain areas I have seen a # of Impalas doing police duty. Anyway, I think we all are a bit tough on the Impala, its not a bad ride. Yes, it isn't an Avalon or Azera but also cheaper (except in SS form). A woman at our office just got an SS in black. I'll have to ask her how she likes it. Something tells me her husband had a lot to do with that purchase!

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No, it's not the bottom of the barrel. The problem is...you have to get an SS in order for it to be competitive with most of the other ones mentioned in the forum.

    A buddy of mine just recently got a 2006 Impala LT. It was what it was...decent transportation. The Impala whether it's LS, LT, LTZ or SS invokes a passion for wanting to drive it to me. There is nothing about that car that makes me want to get in it. I'm sorry, that's just me. It's not that I'm against domestic machinery because I like the Charger, Taurus and Lucerne as they all have a unique look. The one that won me over just happened to be the Azera!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    The Impala makes me think of my business trips because that is quite often what I end up in for a rental. For awhile I was against domestics but now have realized that the playing field has been leveled a bit. GM is producing much better vehicles than in the past and Ford has cleaned up their act a bit. Chrysler is a train wreck IMO and if it weren't for the 300 and Charger would be in even more trouble.

    I have 18 months to go on my Avalon lease. Next time I shop I think I will have a tougher time picking a vehicle. I love my Avalon, but in '09 it is likely to be the same basic car I have now. Lots of vehicles on the horizon in my price range (redesigned Impala, G8, Genesis) nice to have choices.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...if you think about it, the domestic companies have opened their doors to bringing the minds and pens (designers) behind foreign designs into their houses. The 300 was definitely a fresh idea on a retro look, it was a can't miss move on their part. Now the doors have been opened to re-working older designs. Thus, the Charger, upcoming Challenger & Camaro. Then you have the Ford has a couple of re-workings on slate to go along with the Mustang and the GTO. The designs are getting much better!!!

    Anyway, none of those are listed in this forum, so let me get back in tune here. The G8, re-designed Impala and Genesis are all worthy looking options on paper and in theory. I guess we'll have to patiently wait and see what happens when they are finally offered. Maybe by then, Buick will have dropped a more worthy V-6 powerplant in the Lucerne. Maybe Chysler will see that a 197 hp 2.7 V-6 in the 300 is really a waste of man hours, resources and time. Maybe Hyundai will see the lack of logic in offering the Azera in both a 3.3 & 3.8 variation. Come on...1/2 liter??? It could be different if there was a greater gain on fuel economy by making such a move, but that can't even be said.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    Does the Azera and Sonata share a common platform? Just makes no apparent sense otherwise to put the 3.3 motor in the Azera. The only thing I can think of it has a significantly lower cost of production due to being in the higher volume Sonata. I just hope Hyundai isn't taking a page out of the Detroit 3's playbook.

    " Maybe by then, Buick will have dropped a more worthy V-6 powerplant in the Lucerne"

    I would think that the next gen Lucerne will be a varient of the RWD platform from the G8 and new Impala. They can't possibly put the 3.8 4 speed in those.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    From my understanding, the Sonata and Azera do not share the same platform. Is using that engine would cut costs signigicantly, I would think they would have slated it to be in in the Azera period and just tune to produce more hp than the version in the Sonata.

    The Lucerne would be served greatly if GM used the same engine V-6 that's in the Saturn Aura. Very capable engine and I'm sure it could be tuned to work more efficiently with the larger Lucerne.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "The Lucerne would be served greatly if GM used the same engine V-6 that's in the Saturn Aura. Very capable engine and I'm sure it could be tuned to work more efficiently with the larger Lucerne."

    I know it sounds weird, but I really think Buick soldiers on with the 3800 for the Buick loyalists. Whenever I knock the 3800 people really defend it. In my own family I have a few that don't want to drive anything else. I can't tell them anything about the newer tech engines. As for the Lucerne for every 5 I see 4 are the 3800. I guess the guys at Buick want to cater to a certain audience with the Lucerne, which, IMO is previous LeSabre, and Park Av owners. Instead of people like us who just want a large car with power and economy.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    As I mentioned before, have driven both the V6 and V8 Lucerne and while I liked the V8 better, I can certainly understand the love for the venerable 3800. It has reasonably good low end torque and like the Toyota 4Runner (my other favorite vehicle) is know to be virtually bulletproof.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    There is no doubt that it is bulletproof. I know of a Lesabre with 300K on the original engine. The entire car is falling apart but the engine is still going. I guess that because I don't put a lot of miles (my Av is 18 months old and just turned 14K) and I lease my vehicles I want the newest technology. The 3800 does ok, but in terms of power to MPG it isn't up to the task of GM's own 3.6 and not even close to the 2GR or VQ. Low end torque is pretty good but when you do rev the thing it is very rough and noisy. I had that engine in my 98 Olds 88, back then it probably was one of the best V6s available. I guess I have a hard time buying a car ten years later with the exact same motor. Although, the engine was the only thing that was ok with that car :lemon:

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > I have a hard time buying a car ten years later with the exact same motor.

    That motor has continuously been improved. The Series III has improvements over the 1998 series II version. For the folk who act like the 3.8 L is the same as the 3800 is the same as the Series II is the same as the Series III are usually trying to downplay it. I am NOT saying tjc78 did this. Others have in other forums refused to call it a 3800 because it has changed and call it the 3.8 to try to link it to its aged versions.

    I do not hotrod my leSabres and I don't have to make full throttle merges daily onto nasty interstate traffic, where I can understand the fuel economy lossin lieu of horsepower and torque would make me feel safer. But my 3800's are more than adequate.

    AND the H-bodies and G-bodies that have been around are often on their ownership past #2 and loads of them are running around this area.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "That motor has continuously been improved"

    I understand that is has been tweaked over the years. It isn't quite the same motor as say an '85 Regal had. However its tough to say its that improved when my 98 Olds had 205HP/220Lb and was rated at 19/29 MPG (weighed 3455)

    Now an '07 Lucerne 197HP/227lb and rated at 19/28 MPG and (weighs 3792 CXL trim)

    To me these are pretty identical #'s. Where were all the "series III" improvements? Was it all NVH? In all honestly I didn't notice any difference in the new 3800 to the one in my 1998 Olds.

    P.S. I use 3.8 or 3800 its the same thing. I don't do it to knock the motor. Really the same difference in calling my Avalon's engine a 3.5 or a 2GR.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • newcarformenewcarforme Member Posts: 35
    Who cares about Buicks, Avalons, and Hyundais. Let's talk about the Taurus. Great new engine and transmission, just all around incredible car. Quieter and smoother than a Caddy. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Because...in the end, it's still a FORD!!! LOL
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm not sure what your post is supposed to mean. Nobody asked a "why" question.
  • ppborcebppborceb Member Posts: 61
    When I was a kid, about 60 years ago, a mechanic chewed me out and said "that's not a motor, it's an engine!".
    Does anyone out there share this opinion?
  • 101649101649 Member Posts: 192
    All Ford can build is trucks and SUV's; both of which they can't give away now....They have one car that sells in America...The Mustang....which despite all their efforts, they can't produce a "muscle car" with that platform and powertrain configuration....it's still a Ford......
  • 101649101649 Member Posts: 192
    Motors rely on an outside source for power...ie electric motor....engines produce their own power...ie internal combustion engines, jet engines, etc...
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Don't mind him. If he knew his Hyundai history he wouldn't have made that comment. Per elantragtclub.com: Hyundai Motor Company was established in December 1967. The young automaker turned to Ford of the UK as its first partner to provide the requisite technology for cars and light trucks. So his beloved Azera is nothing but a Korean Ford...LOL....LOL...LOL
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Sorry, that was 40 years ago and it was Ford of England, not Ford of Detroit-BIG difference. Having owned cars from both, my opinion is that Hyundai moved ahead and Ford did not. Ford concentrated on trucks and SUV's and abandoned the car market. Hopefully that is changing.
    Don't forget Nissan's (Datsun) first sports car was a copy of the MG/Triumph and then evolved into the 240Z-and the rest is history.
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    And having driven English cars (TR's, Jag's) tacking on the word "England" to "Ford" is not necessary a positive thing....

    Hyundai may have moved ahead, though one of it's main selling points seems to be $$$: You get a Camry or an Avalon for thousands less--when you really wish you could justify the price of the Toyotas. But so has Ford. The Ford Taurus today is way different from the jellybean Taurus of the 1990's. I'm not particularly a Ford lover. Drove a '98 Taurus company car for two years and it was not bad, but not great. Having driven a 500 on a business trip I can say it was a vast improvement over the jellybean. Biggest weakness was engine/transmission, so I'm looking forward to renting the new Taurus to see how it does.

    The point here was that there's no need to slam other people's choices. And what drives (ahem) us toward one model or another may not be just stats.

    I grew up in a family were all my uncles fought in WWII. Lost one in Germany and one in the Pacific. You didn't DARE say you were going to buy anything but American in my family. So I prefer American. My Dad loved Chrysler and now I drive a 300C which is 3 yrs. old and has been trouble free. I chose it over other American makes because, well, sex sells and it's a sexy looking car. The Hemi makes it better. You can make all the comments about reliability and durability you want. But if I had to choose between Rosie ODonnell, who is functional, probably reliable and relatively low maintenance, and Catherine Zeta-Jones who is functional, not too sure about reliable and definitely not low maintenance, I'd pick Catherine. Forgetting about the fact that Hyundai is a "foreign" car. To me, Hyundai is a Rosie. No sex. Wouldn't even have been on my radar if it was American made....

    Now maybe we can get back to discussing the pros and cons of cars.....
  • martin22martin22 Member Posts: 53
    Yes, but C Z-J is British (well Welsh). To see her at her best, go to Netflix and check out the British TV series - The Darling Buds of May.

    Now, back to cars!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    And you consider yourself "thegraduate"??? A "why" question doesn't have to be asked. My comment means exactly what is stated. The post I responded to made a comment about talking about the Taurus. My response was a sarcastically laden reply pertaining to the fact that it's a Ford.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually Vic10, I'm FULLY aware of my Hyundai History, thank you very much. I'm just amazed that you had to go back THAT many years to pull something out. I expected something more creative.

    Hyundai is so far removed from their beginnings they aren't even the same company they used to be. Ford...their technology isn't worth putting in a Hyundai these days.

    Nice try buddy.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "All Ford can build is trucks and SUV's"

    Ford isn't all that bad. They just rush things into production. The 500 was/is a nice overall vehicle and only thing I could say bad about it was the powertrain. The 3.5 wasn't ready so they threw in the 3.0 and killed the car in the process. So now they rename it to Taurus and finally give it a decent engine (which already is getting knocked for NVH, rushed also). However, what they fail to realize is they already KILLED the Taurus name selling to fleets and letting the car go unchanged for so long. The same thing is happening to the Fusion/Milan, should have better powertrain options. What about the Zephyr turned MKZ... their marketing is awful. You introduce a car(s) and change its name after only 2 years :confuse:

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I guess that's why they are offering AWD on the models you've mentioned. I mean...there aren't too many other offerings in each of the classes that have AWD as an option...for the price point they can be bought at.
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Acknowledged. Actually I was anticipating some comment from our lady readers, in which case I was prepared to proposed to do a Michael Moore/Brad Pitt analogy, with of course, Michael= Hyundai.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The brand bashing is not getting us anywhere helpful. Let's stick to the features and attributes of the cars and leave the bashing out of it.
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